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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Let's Talk About...Life

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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 02:25
Quote: "
Life exists because it can.
The meaning of living organisms, in it's simplest terms, is to reproduce."

Not sure about this logic? I can see where your going, but is it true that because life can exist, it should try to exist some more? I would have instead said that the meaning of an organsim would be to survive.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." That's a bit like saying Hey bullies! So yeah, this words thing isn't working, but I'll tell you what will
Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 02:44
Quote: "ZoToaster(? probably him): Life exists because it can.
The meaning of living organisms, in it's simplest terms, is to reproduce."
INH: Not sure about this logic? I can see where your going, but is it true that because life can exist, it should try to exist some more? I would have instead said that the meaning of an organism would be to survive. "

@INH
The organisms that exist today are here because of their ability to survive and adapt. The ones that were unable to do so perished. As Yoda said "Do, or do not, there is no try".
If an organism is to survive through generations it must reproduce. Some species of fly don't even eat! You'd think that would be bad for their survival by they reproduce in the short time they are alive, I don't understand where they get the energy for that from but it was on some documentary

@Zo
I'd say life was the meaning of reproduction, not the other way around. And anyway I don't think you can have two things being the meaning of each other, that doesn't seem logical to me.

We survive because we reproduce, if we weren't here we wouldn't be here to say that we wouldn't be here if we didn't. It's one of those strange facts like conditions on earth being perfect for life, of course they are! I find it funny when people say we are lucky that out of all the planets Earth is perfect for us. That is like saying it is fortunate that my mother gave me the name Oliver, because everyone keeps calling me that.

I've forgotten where I am now but it is nice to see these kind of philosophical questions in geek culture.


Everything worthwhile requires effort.
n008
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 03:08
Procreation, or at least the preceding steps, is the prime directive.

Nevar forget.

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
Design Runner
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 04:25
(Warning, this will probably be quite long.)

I am Christian, so you will see that reflect through this, but I also am a strong believer in science, so I have sort of blended the two. I believe that our purpose is to improve our society. It started out as improving our species survival, but now with our evolution that, too, has evolved. Now, where did the universe come from? No one knows, but it had to come from a creator. God. But then arises the question: where did God come from? So then the amazing overwhelming feeling that question gives me forces me to shut it out. Now back to life. What does "Improving our society" mean? As Jeku said, to live as Jesus did. Help others, make a mark on what will be history, survive, make our time improve the lives of those in the next generation. Improve, improve, improve. But there has to be more to it than that? Of course. The next main thing is love, which should lead us back. I believe in several forms of love. (I also believe that the word love is very abused, but lets not get into that.) First: Family. Not much to it. Respect them, listen to them, especially learn from them. Second: Friendship. Easy enough. Honestly, though, everyone in the world should be your friends. Just something to think about. Third: Love. Not hormones, not arranged marriages, but God-given through evolution free will. Soul Mate. I read a quote, man I wish I could find it, that read something like this: "God gave us two hands, two legs, two eyes, two ears, but why only one heart? Because he gave it to someone else on this world." (Or out of this world if you are into that stuff ) Fourth: Hate. This is stronger than love. "Hate's a strong word." Yes, but that is because it has a strong meaning. It does not mean angry, but rather is the feeling that a person, group, or thing implies a negative aspect towards our societies ability to improve. Now the four areas relating to improving: we need each other to make the world a better place.
Everyone is equal, we all should have the freedoms that make us individuals and a society as a whole; live life greatly, not carelessly, not destructively, not purely for enjoyment, but for being everything you can be, should be, and having made a difference.
Also an addition: I believe in heaven as well. I couldn't tell you why, can't back it up with any strong facts or opinion, but I was brought up that way, and thats the way I am.

I may have just made my own religion.

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
AndrewT
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 04:37
Quote: "Not sure about this logic? I can see where your going, but is it true that because life can exist, it should try to exist some more? I would have instead said that the meaning of an organsim would be to survive. "


Yeah, I agree--science is descriptive, not normative. Science tells us, for instance, that fusion occurs in the sun, producing light and heat. But it's inaccurate to say that the meaning of the sun is to produce light; it simply acts according to the laws governing it, and the consequences naturally follow. Likewise, biology tells us that life tends to reproduce, but it doesn't follow that the meaning of life is to reproduce.

With that said, I don't think that there's any definite, inherent meaning to life of any kind. But we can still ascribe our own meaning--to advance mankind, to change others' lives, or just to learn as much as much as you can about the universe.

i like orange
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 06:20
Quote: "I believe the meaning of life, to me, is to be as good a person as I can be. Help out the less fortunate, and try to be like Jesus was. I believe we have a soul and I will feel really good if I ever achieve something to the betterment of society."

^This

I've always found it depressing when people believe in no purpose and nothingness after life. I can understand from a scientific point of view that a soul doesn't make sense. But wouldn't you at least hope it does simply for the fact that there is something afterwards?
~note~ I don't mean this as a debate, or as a question directed to anyone. It's more rhetorical (if thats the right word) to show what exactly I believe.

Signature's are stupid.
crispex
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 06:30
Wow, posted this last night didn't expect this many people. Some interesting opinions floating about.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
SH4773R
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 06:46
The Meaning of Life = Programming


My software never has bugs, it just develops random features.
C4: silly putty for men.
Lemonade
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 07:50
As others have stated, for me life without 'religion' is pointless. If life is only about chasing after self pleasure that lasts a few moments, then all sense of morals, truth, and laws must be made up and is therefore unnecessary. On the contrary, I believe that creation testifies to the existence of God. I believe there is absolute truth, in life and after it--to the eternal fortune of some, and the eternal misfortune of others.

If you are brave and are interested in learning more about core Christianity, I recommend Paul Washer. Check him out on YouTube. If you take the time I assure you that you will find there is much more depth and reason to Christianity than you would ever think.

PrimalBeans
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 08:09 Edited at: 30th Mar 2011 08:14
the meaning of life==

the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

rock == !alive
catfish == alive

lol

I think that thoughts like this are meaningless. Generally speaking your right in anyway you look at it... and your wrong. Someone who believes that there isnt life after death could be wrong depending on the context and the reverse would be true as well. Everthing is recycled in some manner no matter how you look at it. A killer is just as valuble in this manner as a saint. Balance in life is the key to a complete life. Live for yourself and for others. I wonder sometimes what will happen when i pass, but i never see this as the key to what happens after i do. I try to live as honestly as i can and hope for the best the meaning of life is realizing the potential of your existance and fufilling it. The potential is as you see it.

It is my personal belief that i exist for me and the people around me. I exist to be the best i can for me and the ones i love. I also believe that you should do to other as you would have them do to you without letting people walk all over you, but not to the degree that trivial nonsense becomes your life. Thats kind of how i view the whole meaning of life deal. Trivial nonsense.

I dont mean for this to be in any way offensive to anyone whos posted here its just as i see it. Everyone is entitled to their own views and beliefs and use their time alive. The only clash i have with anyone is when someone would impose themselves beliefs or otherwise.

actually i have a funny image that demonstrates the true meaning of life..

the thing next to the monkey is bananas... if you didnt guess already. I spent a whole of 2 min drawing it..

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Satchmo
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 08:18 Edited at: 30th Mar 2011 08:19
Watch Carl Sagan's cosmos, you don't need religion for your life to have meaning. In his own words, "We are a way for the universe to know itself."

The chances of life appearing are almost infinitesimally small, but when there are this many planets, planetary systems, galaxies and possibly even universes, it's bound to happen eventually. Our planet is nothing, a speck of dust orbiting a small and unremarkable star similar to the trillions of stars out there in space.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/wupToqz1e2g

This is from the documentary "Pale Blue Dot".

PrimalBeans
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 11:49 Edited at: 30th Mar 2011 11:55
hey that kind of seems like this... at least to some extent.. he talks of the world though in a different light... the part were he says that life is an overated phenomenon... it kind of coinsides with what carl is talking about in the fact that that is how things are, but not in the way each thinks it should change. Carl seems optimistic, Dr. Manhattan not so much... (Till later).

well that is bust...

edit... wrong clip... and i cant find the one im refering to... at least not with the part im refering to... sorry false alarm... if youve seen the movie maybe youll know what im talking about... or not..

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 12:53 Edited at: 30th Mar 2011 12:55
Quote: "I've always found it depressing when people believe in no purpose and nothingness after life. I can understand from a scientific point of view that a soul doesn't make sense. But wouldn't you at least hope it does simply for the fact that there is something afterwards?"


To answer your question. Too without intending to start a debate over this, this is to offer the perspective of a 'non-believer'. I won't be challenged to debate the matter.

With the lack of a soul and the lack of any gods and any kind of purpose from a religious perspective (I give myself purpose), I have spoken to many religious folk who find the idea depressing (and I can see why). I don't. Having no soul and no afterlife doesn't depress me and I don't hope for an afterlife, maybe that'll change when I'm on my deathbed. I think my finite existence on this planet makes me appreciate the life I do have and I find the fact that I live very, very amazing and so I make choices with only this life in mind and not the afterlife (not to imply others don't, it's just taken from a different world perspective). And personally, I wouldn't want an eternal life either, if I were to choose an afterlife, I might opt for reincarnation, but I personally have no reason to believe that we reincarnate because in my mind, it's a hypothesis, I've shared no experience or seen evidence to suggest otherwise, though I'll accept it's a possibility (after all, the scientific mind ought to be an open one and nothing suggests it's impossible). I understand the scientific sort can have faith and many people do, I just don't and I am happy.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 16:32
Quote: "the chicken must have come first because if the egg was first the chick inside would die without the warmth of a chicken to incubate it. Also, the egg is a reproductive cell of a chicken, it can't reproduce by itself, so it could only exist if a chicken had existed before to produce it."


As an object, fish laid eggs long before land animals existed. So the REAL question is, what came first, the egg, or the fish.

The meaning of life is so simple:

Quote: "Consume and reproduce; await further instructions."


BiggAdd
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 16:37
Quote: "On an unrelated but similar note, the chicken and the egg problem (which came first?) is totally stupid! I only realised recently that it has an obvious answer: the chicken must have come first because if the egg was first the chick inside would die without the warmth of a chicken to incubate it. Also, the egg is a reproductive cell of a chicken, it can't reproduce by itself, so it could only exist if a chicken had existed before to produce it."


It was a 50-50 chance, but unfortunately chose the scientifically incorrect answer, assuming that when you say "egg", you mean the chicken egg.

Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 19:15
Quote: "As others have stated, for me life without 'religion' is pointless. If life is only about chasing after self pleasure that lasts a few moments, then all sense of morals, truth, and laws must be made up and is therefore unnecessary. On the contrary, I believe that creation testifies to the existence of God. I believe there is absolute truth, in life and after it--to the eternal fortune of some, and the eternal misfortune of others.
"

I don't see why a life without religion would mean a life without morals, truth and laws; atheists are just as morally conscious as the religious. We all have morals, no matter where you are from, morality is the code we live by as members of a society, it is something buried deep within us long before any of the modern religions existed.
Damning those who don't share your beliefs to "eternal misfortune" is disgusting and I think you should be ashamed to judge people in that way. That is not the purpose of this thread, show some tolerance to others please.

@Bigadd
Sorry? Did I use the wrong terminology? What I was trying to say is that an egg would die if it was alone but a chicken could survive so the chicken must have been first.


Everything worthwhile requires effort.
Fallout
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 19:31 Edited at: 30th Mar 2011 19:33
I personally believe morality is taught, and not instinctive. I believe we're only compassionate and moral because we grow up learning there are repercussions for our actions and we're taught compassion in order to fit into society.

You only need to look at what people do in situations where there are no apparent repercussions and you see what we're all capable of. I'm talking AUP breaking subjects, like wars, the holocaust, cannibalistic tribes in the Congo, slavery etc. (lets not discuss them). Many people from our modern society would commit atrocious acts put in those kind of scenarios. I believe the ones who wouldn't are the ones who have been brought up well, either via religion or just good parenting etc. Effectively, they have been conditioned to perceived those acts as bad and have an emotional response. Take out that conditioning, and I think people would murder, steal and rape with no real compassion or morality.

Yep! We're all capable of selfish cruelty, and that's buried by our upbringing, imo! Unconventional thinking, I know.

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 21:45
Quote: "Damning those who don't share your beliefs to "eternal misfortune" is disgusting and I think you should be ashamed to judge people in that way."


Try to look at it this way.
You probably believe that "nothing" happens when we die, right? If so, do you only believe "nothing" will happen when you die OR do you apply that belief to everyone? If you say "nothing" will happen when I die, should I be offended? Are you judging me? No. You are just applying your beliefs.
When a Christian who believes in Heaven and Hell says he thinks that people will actually go to one of those places, he isn't (or shouldn't be) judging you. He is simply applying his belief. Sometimes Christians ARE judgemental. Believing that rules apply to everyones isn't judging though. It is followthrough.

a.k.a WOLF!
thenerd
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 22:15
Quote: "@Bigadd
Sorry? Did I use the wrong terminology? What I was trying to say is that an egg would die if it was alone but a chicken could survive so the chicken must have been first."

No, because at some point an "almost-chicken" laid an egg that crossed the boundary and could be classified as a chicken egg. the parent that supported the egg, however, was not a chicken: the egg had a mutation that made it different enough.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 23:05 Edited at: 30th Mar 2011 23:07
Quote: "With the lack of a soul and the lack of any gods and any kind of purpose from a religious perspective (I give myself purpose), I have spoken to many religious folk who find the idea depressing (and I can see why). I don't. Having no soul and no afterlife doesn't depress me and I don't hope for an afterlife, maybe that'll change when I'm on my deathbed. I think my finite existence on this planet makes me appreciate the life I do have and I find the fact that I live very, very amazing and so I make choices with only this life in mind and not the afterlife (not to imply others don't, it's just taken from a different world perspective)."

Ahhh well I guess I can understand that. Though I don't understand why you wouldn't want an afterlife...

Quote: " maybe that'll change when I'm on my deathbed "

I'm sure this quote applies to many. When the time comes, will you really be ready for a complete end? What about kids who die at such a young age? What if YOU, in ten minutes, were to be run over by a bus? Would you still prefer simply death, or life after? (I think this can be applied to just about anyone lol.) Because I know I for sure--regardless how unrealistic it may seem--I would love an eternal life.

They call me............. Hayden.... Because..... it's my name!!!! MWAHAHAHA!
Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 23:35 Edited at: 30th Mar 2011 23:39
Quote: "No, because at some point an "almost-chicken" laid an egg that crossed the boundary and could be classified as a chicken egg. the parent that supported the egg, however, was not a chicken: the egg had a mutation that made it different enough."

Agreed. Neither the chicken nor egg magically appeared: there was a series of chicken-like and egg-like things which slowly, through evolution, became more and more like chickens and eggs. The answer to the question "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" should really be "What was the origin of the first life-form?"

As regards morality generally: I'm an atheist, since I personally don't see any reason to think God exists. I don't think theists are wrong or stupid, in fact one of my best friends is a devout Christian and we spend most of our time together arguing over the interpretation of scripture. But I remain firm in my conviction that there is no reason to think there's a God.

This leads to some moral questions. If I'm not going to be judged after death, then is there any need to be a "good" person? What does "good" mean any more? Under Christianity "good" means obeying God - but if you remove God then you have a number of notions such as "killing is bad and preserving lives is good" which we have cultivated in our society. But this is really just left over from Christianity and is a product of our current culture. There were cultures before us such as the Anglo Saxons and Vikings which did not consider killing to be bad and often championed killing. Sure, right now we consider murder to be a terrible evil but this is not a universal truth.

What is true, however, is that I don't want to be killed and I don't want my friends to be killed. I'm also not very keen on killing other people. So it makes sense for me to be living in a society where killing is seen as "bad" and is punishable by law. This idea basically goes back to the idea of the Social Contract: there are certain things that I want from society and that society wants from me, in that I want to be protected from killers and society wants me to be a law-abiding citizen (and not kill).

On the whole, therefore, I think the whole moral system as put forward by religions can be replaced by another one which is agreed upon by common consent. It's true that, without God, there is no universal yard stick by which the goodness of deeds can be measured; instead, I propose a system whereby we decide upon our own system of morality.

It's true that this would mean that, over time, the culture's view of what is good or bad would change; there would be no universal idea of what is good. But this is inevitable anyway; even within Christianity, the teachings of God have been interpreted in different ways to suit the desires of the moment. For the Anglo-Saxons, who were a warrior society, the idea of God as the ultimate warlord was uppermost; teachings about love and repentance for sin were largely subjugated to ideas of loyalty to God (which was seen as similar to loyalty to your earthly Lord). When Christianity was adopted by the Romans in the 4th century, many pagan practices were simply rebranded as Christian to help the transition. Nowadays, teachings about abstaining from premarital sex or the importance of giving all your wealth to the poor have been toned down, at least compared to their medieval counterparts, because such teachings are largely incompatible with modern western society. My point is that to wish for a universal idea of what "good" and "evil" are is in contrast with how human beings have always behaved: "good" and "evil" have constantly fluctuated based on the cultures in which they are described, with each culture firmly (but, presumably, incorrectly) believing that their conception of morality is the correct one.

So it really seems straightforward to propose a secular, functional, atheistic set of morals based solely on what society as a whole wants right now. After all, it must surely be a good thing if we are in control of our own morality; there is no need for us to chastise ourselves for breaking rules which were made when our current societal needs were undreamt of.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 30th Mar 2011 23:52
Me senses a locking occurring pretty soon >.<

TGC Products: Dark Game Studio–DarkCLOUDS-Enhancement Pack-3D WorldStudio-Animated Sprite Pack-FPS Creator X9 free upgraded to build-Dark Data-DarkNet-Unity-EZRotate
BiggAdd
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 00:01 Edited at: 31st Mar 2011 00:03
Quote: "@Bigadd
Sorry? Did I use the wrong terminology? What I was trying to say is that an egg would die if it was alone but a chicken could survive so the chicken must have been first."


Mutations that can change an entire organism only happen when the organism is only a single cell, or a handful of cells.
Mutations happen all the time, but because there are so many cells in the body, a single mutation in one cell of the body is not enough to cause an entire change to the organism.

So the "egg" must come first.


I think where most people get tripped up is a lack of understanding in Evolution. These things don't happen in big leaps. They happen in tiny increments over hundreds and thousands of years.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 00:46
Let's be honest, humans are horribly selfish creatures, I mean not a single human has eve done something out of pure kindness, bar Jesus, if you are thus inclined to believe he existed.

It's a testament to this selfishness that can be found in religion, but not the religion itself. If there is a god, he knew that hat he created wouldn't care for one another, and fall apart. So he did two things, or evolution did, either way.

1) He created the promise of immortality, but only for ourselves. We can't live full lives, earn the right to heaven, but grant it to another, less scrupulous soul in a final act of charity. Nope, you earn it, you keep it, you love it.

2) He made us get a small high from giving, which is nice, honestly. That fuzzy feeling when you drop change in a charity tin, or help someone carry their shopping. It's this collaboration that sets us apart - scientists prove the only major difference between us and apes, is that apes cannot teach, or collaborate. We can.

So the beautiful thing about human life is that, through evolution or divine guidance. We as the selfish, ignorant species we are, have achieved so much by working together.

And the idea that a life without religion, or promise of an afterlife is worthless, is pathetic. A man can die happily if he has done at least one selfless at in his life, saving a life, curing a disease, or even simply raising his own children. Any man can live a life that will be remembered, without existing forever.

And for that, I'm happy. I'll probably never live until the 2100's, I may never see space travel or all the wonders we hope to acheive. I may not even help advance us towards such things.

But if I have a child, and that child then becomes a great scientist, or anything, I think I'll have done a good job as a parent then.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 00:51
Quote: "Let's be honest, humans are horribly selfish creatures, I mean not a single human has eve done something out of pure kindness, bar Jesus, if you are thus inclined to believe he existed."


Mother Teresa doesn't count, obviously.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 01:24
Quote: "Ahhh well I guess I can understand that. Though I don't understand why you wouldn't want an afterlife..."


I think eternal life would become mediocre, even though yes, I am afraid of the idea of dying. Which is why I said I prefer the idea of reincarnation - the next life I could be a chicken, then the life after that a germ sat on an After Eight Mint, then a Cobra from the Bronx.

Quote: "I'm sure this quote applies to many. When the time comes, will you really be ready for a complete end? What about kids who die at such a young age? What if YOU, in ten minutes, were to be run over by a bus? Would you still prefer simply death, or life after? (I think this can be applied to just about anyone lol.) Because I know I for sure--regardless how unrealistic it may seem--I would love an eternal life."


This is an interesting one. I think I would regret not being able to live my life to its full end, but if I were to have a wish, I think it would be on a second chance and for me to live my life longer rather than an eternal life. But straight out: death vs eternal life, it could go either way - if I get hit by a bus in 10 minutes, it's more likely to be eternal life - I could potentially regret such a decision, but you lack foresight on such things. When I'm in my 80's or 90's, I might feel as though I've achieved what I've wanted with my life.

But to me, the best I can do is live my life the best I can as there's no use in me fearing in what might be, there's several different beliefs in the after life, many we would all dread - I think if, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church were right, you and I would be joined together in an afterlife of pain and suffering, perhaps wishing you were dead. If one of my Christian friends is right, as long as we've behaved ourselves, even though I'm a non-believer, I could be joining you in heaven. I understand people will have their individual or collective faiths, I just find myself without reason to join them.

I might well be wrong and enjoy eternal life. I'm human, so there's room for me to be 100% wrong about everything ever. We're imperfect and our knowledge is very finite.

Omnomer
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 03:13
I think the meaning of life is held within that squirrel you can never catch and eat.

Squirrel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PrimalBeans
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 08:15
As far as the chicken or the egg question: I had an egg for breakfast then a chicken sandwich for dinner so the single celled ameba came first.

Jeku
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 09:15
Quote: "If one of my Christian friends is right, as long as we've behaved ourselves, even though I'm a non-believer, I could be joining you in heaven."


The standard Christian belief is contrary to that. Most Christians believe that if you are not a Christian, then you're not going to heaven. Muslims believe the same thong about being Muslim as far as I know. There's no "wishy-washy" half way point. Either you are or you aren't. Just being a "good guy" isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid.


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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 09:28 Edited at: 31st Mar 2011 09:46
I'm glad we're able to discuss this hear while remaining respectful to each other. This is uncommon these forums. I hope everyone (myself included) keeps it up.

Quote: "The standard Christian belief is contrary to that. Most Christians believe that if you are not a Christian, then you're not going to heaven. Muslims believe the same thong about being Muslim as far as I know. There's no "wishy-washy" half way point. Either you are or you aren't. Just being a "good guy" isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid."


You're pretty accurate there Jeku. The only thing is that the actual Muslim belief in their scriptures is that God has the final word on whether they go to heaven or not. That is, God can still send a devout Muslim to hell if he decides to when they die, or he can send a wicked person to heaven if he wishes. Muslims, if I am wrong on this correct me.

Also, it's not only bearing the title "Christian" or even living a good life. We believe it's actually believing in and following Jesus Christ specifically, who paid the penalty for our sin. I had to say this because there are some, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who go by the title "Christian", but do not believe Jesus is God, so there is a huge difference there.

As far as the Evolution vs. Christianity discussion goes:, don't assume that it must be either one or the other. There are now many Christians who believe that God actually created the universe using Evolution. They do this by taking the creation account in Genesis as figurative. I do not hold this view; I take it literally.

Even if it is taken literally, though, this does not mean that the universe has to be only about 4000 - 6000 years old. Many have suggested that each day of creation could have not been merely 24 hour days, but long periods of time. Of course, this is debatable and I am not sure whether I accept it, but all I am trying to say is that we must not pit science and Christianity against one another. One should not abandon science and logic if they become a Christian. Rather, I believe becoming a Christian allows you to utilize logic and science to the fullest extent possible.

Even though Evolution may have been the means God created the universe with, atheistic Evolutionists still must answer the question: "How did whatever existed that caused Evolution come into existence?" You can keep pushing it back further and further, but eventually an answer as to the origin of the universe is needed. I believe this is only possible with an eternal God who is outside of time.

Quote: "I think where most people get tripped up is a lack of understanding in Evolution. These things don't happen in big leaps. They happen in tiny increments over hundreds and thousands of years."


I agree that looking at Evolution in leaps is not always fair. But then again, when I look at it in tiny increments, I see other problems.

For example, when did the first appearance of life come to pass? At X point in time, it was not life, but then at X + .00001 seconds, it became alive? I find this hard to comprehend; maybe someone can explain it to me.


About mutations, I find that the problem there is that many Evolutions view mutations in a positive light. However, mutations more often then not ruin (not advance) a species. We ought to take the fact that mutations are not uncommon as a sign that Evolution is even less likely to be a plausible theory.

I make a distinction between Evolution (with a capital "E") and "evolution". I think "evolution" is very true; we see species evolving and adapting all over the world. However, to assume that this means that evolved from virtually nothing is a huge leap. For example, in the lab they have altered fruit flies in very interesting ways, so that the wings grow on the head or so that the feet or all messed up, etc, but they cannot make the fruit fly anything other than a distorted fruit fly.


Back to the discussion about life: I agree with whoever said that atheists do have morals: they certainly do! I just don't think they were invented by society. The fact that one is an atheist and yet is moral does not automatically suggest that those morals came from society. It all depends on whether God exists.


Quote: "So it really seems straightforward to propose a secular, functional, atheistic set of morals based solely on what society as a whole wants right now. After all, it must surely be a good thing if we are in control of our own morality; there is no need for us to chastise ourselves for breaking rules which were made when our current societal needs were undreamt of."


I see what you are saying. The only flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that moral diversity means there is no absolute standard. That is much like saying that if 20 students are given a complex algebra problem and all 20 of them get it wrong, we therefore ought to make up our own answer. But perhaps this is not what you meant.
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 09:56
thats kind of how i hear it... my room mate tells me that im going to hell... but thats because i sacrifice small animals in the back yard and scream and yell in my sleep. Other then that im a nice person... lol. On a serious note.. (hard to take this seriously) christians are very keen on you excepting jesus as your savior. Religions mix and match this a bunch. Heres what i think about the whole thing thoughother then the monkey diagram. ) Basically i think that the only true way to determine if someone is to be saved is to see the purity of the 'soul'. Serial killers and rapist except christ in prison, yet commit atrocities to man kind that are unthinkable. Yet the agnostic man who pushes an old blind lady out of the way of a bus goes to hell?? Hmm... makes god look a little tarnished doesnt it?? I know what scripture says.. and i might be going to hell.. Im just curious if anyone of faith has ever thought of this and asked themselves if it makes sense.

One BIG not about this... Im not sure what i believe so if you believe something you might be ahead of me... again this is a personal curiosity query... if anyone would like to spill thier beans... (BTW even if you dont tell us god knows what you were thinking!!)

Another attempt to covermyself: IM REALLY CURIOUS AND UNBIASED(For Real)

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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 10:09
Quote: "I know what scripture says.. and i might be going to hell.. Im just curious if anyone of faith has ever thought of this and asked themselves if it makes sense."


I've chatted to a few Christians about this. They generally say that the serial killer rapist axe murdering genocidal bum tickler is not religious deep down. He may claim to be a believer in Jesus, but if he was a true believer deep down, he wouldn't commit the crimes he does. Muslims believe a similar thing. All these extremists in the middle east chopping off people's heads are not true believers, despite what they say, and are condemned to a horrible end.

It's very easy for someone like myself to decide to accept Jesus and go to church for the rest of my life, but I'll still burn in hell if deep down I don't truly believe. So alas, I am screwed. Having said that, my understanding is that at any point in my life, I can have a revelation or a sign, which may convince me 100% Jesus was the son of God and died for my sins, and even if that happens 1 minute before I die, I will be saved, no matter how much raping and pillaging I have done. The reason why I'm saved is this revelation should make me truly repentant and sorry, finally understanding the error of my ways.

So I personally think it's a fair system! I can do whatever the hell I want now. So long as I find God and truly understand the error of my ways before I die, I'm in. Here's hoping.

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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 13:05 Edited at: 31st Mar 2011 13:09
Quote: "ote: "If one of my Christian friends is right, as long as we've behaved ourselves, even though I'm a non-believer, I could be joining you in heaven."

The standard Christian belief is contrary to that. Most Christians believe that if you are not a Christian, then you're not going to heaven. Muslims believe the same thong about being Muslim as far as I know. There's no "wishy-washy" half way point. Either you are or you aren't. Just being a "good guy" isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid."


I know this. I know quite a number of the bible's teachings and the trouble is, there are many teachings in the bible that people feel are wrong when it comes to how they've interpreted God and Jesus. I've spoken to people who believe Jesus is as wrathful as God was in parts of the Old Testament, hence they believe homosexuals deserve to die (Leviticus 20:13), as Jesus came to deliver the old testament (in their eyes), others feel that such teachings are not applicable and that Jesus is a lot more merciful and wouldn't condemn homosexuals. I've spoken to Christians who'll claim that those who follow closest to the teachings of the bible are the Truest Christians, whereas others treat the bible less like a doctrine and feel those with the strongest faith are the truest Christians and with that, of course you've got many different interpretations. I know some who think knowledge about God is understood through reason, hence they have to question each teaching and hence I have been invited to a Christian debate before, though as the only atheist in the room it was a little uncomfortable, but it was their view that Christians ought to question their faith - there's those who'd be completely and utterly shocked by the idea. From an outsider perspective, the views on Christianity are so diverse that it's so very difficult to say exactly who has got it right, nor will I ever make a claim that somebody has. But then I accept that ANY individual in the world has the capacity to be wrong, regardless of how right they think they are, including myself. After all, I might not be sexy in the eyes of every lady, but I sincerely doubt it!

But my friend's view is that God would not punish those who are good regardless of faith, I suspect she feels that in the New Testament Jesus shows forgiveness and restraint on judgment when it comes to people sins. And I suspect it might derive from things like turning the other cheek, so maybe in her eyes godlessness is too small of a sin for God to have major issues with - she wasn't very descriptive on the matter, so I can only speculate. Now I know many Christians who'd argue against something like that. The same thing happens with Islam (e.g. there are Muslims who absolutely hate Sharia law) and other religions and philosophy too.

Although I'm an atheist, I hold myself to the values of Buddhism (Buddhism, for the most part is atheistic - Buddha is not described as a deity, though there are those who deify him), I understand that my interpretation perhaps differs greatly from many other Buddhists', but I don't think that matters. What matters is what I believe and what I don't don't believe and what I do with my life. If I'm wrong, I'm human and will suffer the consequences of being human, be it eternal torture, or denial to a greater existence.

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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 14:59 Edited at: 31st Mar 2011 15:43
Quote: "For example, when did the first appearance of life come to pass? At X point in time, it was not life, but then at X + .00001 seconds, it became alive? I find this hard to comprehend; maybe someone can explain it to me.
"


This is a very good question with quite a complicated answer. A biologist's definition of 'living' requires the organism to exibit seven different characteristics:

1. It must regulate its internal environment, so it can survive
2. It must be composed of one or more cells
3. It must be able to use and convert chemicals into energy, components for cells etc. (Metabolism)
4. It must be able to grow
5. It must be able to better adapt to its environment over the generations
6. It must be able to respond to stimuli
7. It must be able to reproduce

Viruses therefore are not alive because even though they reproduce, respond to stimuli and better adapt to their environment over the generations, they cannot metabolise (number 3.) and so offer an example of a simpler replicable 'semi organism' that is not alive.

Likewise, if we go down the scale, and look at RNA the possibilities of simpler, primitive self-replicating units are possible. RNA is a coded molecule, like DNA, but unlike DNA certain coding combinations cause it to form non helical shapes so it can act like an enzyme. Using genetic manipulation of RNA it is possible to make RNA enzymes, that replicate themselves exactly.

So there you go, something that can only do number 7. Once you have the replication all you need are mistakes in the replication for natural selection and evolution to begin, and eventually some of the descendents may acquire some of the other characteristics.

Quote: "About mutations, I find that the problem there is that many Evolutions view mutations in a positive light. However, mutations more often then not ruin (not advance) a species. We ought to take the fact that mutations are not uncommon as a sign that Evolution is even less likely to be a plausible theory."


This is a misunderstanding of natural selection, a spontaneous mutation is unlikely to ruin a whole species, because if it is detrimental it will decrease the survivability of the individual who it happens to. So said individual is less likely to reproduce or have successful offspring and therefore the mutation tends not to spread to the whole population.

Conversely a positive mutation causes increased survivability and will mean the individual carrying it has a greater chance of producing successful offspring, who have the same competitive advantage. So the proportion with the positive mutation increases over time.

Most mutations however are neither overly positive or negative, and so spread to some degree, causing a diverse bank of varying genes in the population. But changes in environment may cause some of these genes to become advantageous or disadvantageous, and those with better tend to genes survive.

For Fathers and Sons who enjoy wholy spirits.
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 15:35 Edited at: 31st Mar 2011 15:59
Disclaimer: These are all just my personal opinions!

Quote: "I know quite a number of the bible's teachings and the trouble is, there are many teachings in the bible that people feel are wrong when it comes to how they've interpreted God and Jesus."

There are only two things that can be used as our standard (as Christians): Scripture and church tradition. Anything else is simply us creating God to be who we want him to be. Scripture can be interpreted many different way, but there are many things it is very clear on. When I say church tradition, I don't really mean it in a ritual sense. I mean, how did the very early church operate. Have we diverged from it in principals? If so, I think we are off the path.

Quote: "On a serious note.. (hard to take this seriously) christians are very keen on you excepting jesus as your savior. Religions mix and match this a bunch. Heres what i think about the whole thing thoughother then the monkey diagram. ) Basically i think that the only true way to determine if someone is to be saved is to see the purity of the 'soul'. Serial killers and rapist except christ in prison, yet commit atrocities to man kind that are unthinkable. Yet the agnostic man who pushes an old blind lady out of the way of a bus goes to hell?? Hmm... makes god look a little tarnished doesnt it?? I know what scripture says.. and i might be going to hell.. Im just curious if anyone of faith has ever thought of this and asked themselves if it makes sense."


Here is the thing. We are ALL guilty. When I compare myself to what the commandments say, I fall short every single day.

For example:

Do not have any Gods befor me:
I put lots of things before God. Daily. I also don't always honor the Sabbath day. Usually I work just as hard that day than all the others.

You shall not kill/murder.
Well, I've never actually killed anyone, but Jesus said:
“You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.
By that definition, I'm guilty of murder almost daily.

You shall not commit adultery.
I've been married for 13 years now. I've never cheated on my wife. But again, Jesus said: “You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’ But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Doh! Guilty!

I could go on and probably find myself guilty of all of the commandments. So, if judged today should I go to heaven or hell? , Would I be guilty or innocent? According to what we are commanded, it's not even close. I am guilty and deserve hell.
Although we are all capable of not sinning against God, we all choose to. No one has ever lived a sinless life and all would be subject to the penalty of doing so. Except One. God made himself human. He subjected himeself to the same limitations and tempations that we face every day, yet he lived a perfect, sinless life. When he was crucified, he layed down his life for our sins. And when we sin we continue to crucify Him. We are all guilty of His death. Out of His love, he freely accepts it for you. His perfect sacrifice is a gift that He offers to us. All we have to do is accept it by accepting Him. It isn't something that we earn for being good. None of us are good. It is something that we can only have through the grace of God. You just have to accept the grace.

So, in your example, would a murderer be allowed into heaven if he accepted Jesus while in prison? Absolutely. If he truely was sorry for the crime that he committed, accepted Christ into his life and tried to live as God commanded for the rest of his life, then he is as deserving as I am. There are a couple of stories in the Bible that talk about this and explain it a lot better than I ever could. One of them is the prodigal son. On another note, here is a pretty cool Christian song. If you can make it through (haha), at the end it talks about a murderer accepting Christ. Good song, IMO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgGUKWiw7Wk


Edit:
Quote: "It's very easy for someone like myself to decide to accept Jesus and go to church for the rest of my life, but I'll still burn in hell if deep down I don't truly believe. So alas, I am screwed. Having said that, my understanding is that at any point in my life, I can have a revelation or a sign, which may convince me 100% Jesus was the son of God and died for my sins, and even if that happens 1 minute before I die, I will be saved, no matter how much raping and pillaging I have done. The reason why I'm saved is this revelation should make me truly repentant and sorry, finally understanding the error of my ways."


This is the same problem that I used to face. I thought, if I didn't believe 100% then it wasn't something I could ever really invest in. I thought that I had to have it all figured out and understand completely before I could really have any faith. The truth is I still have my doubts and that is something that I'll always struggle with. If we could proove to ourselves with 100% certainty that God exists, then what would be the purpose of faith? Would we really have free will? I am somewhat certain that the God of the Bible exists. The amount of that certainty fluctuates daily. The difference between how much I believe and absolute certainty is faith. The faith part is much more of a choice than it is a feeling.

a.k.a WOLF!
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 16:23
Quote: "humans are horribly selfish creatures"


Quote: "The standard Christian belief"


On a related note, since the discussion seems to be open, I've always been curious as to how these two statements affect one another in each individual. It's always made me curious to know how many believers chose to live by the practices of their religions, simply to reap the rewards promised to them after death. I mean, I wonder how many people out there would still chose to pick and live by a belief, if they were instead told that they would be given absolutely nothing in exchange for their sacrifices?

Kravenwolf

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 17:21 Edited at: 31st Mar 2011 17:24
Quote: "On a related note, since the discussion seems to be open, I've always been curious as to how these two statements affect one another in each individual. It's always made me curious to know how many believers chose to live by the practices of their religions, simply to reap the rewards promised to them after death. I mean, I wonder how many people out there would still chose to pick and live by a belief, if they were instead told that they would be given absolutely nothing in exchange for their sacrifices?"


That is a great question, but also a bit misguided when it comes to the Christian faith. Many Christians DO believe living a good life is the ticket to heaven. I think the Bible is very clear that it is not. (Again, my opinion).

Like I said in my post above, salvation isn't something that you can earn. Offering our good deeds as sacrifice to God is like offering dirty rags. Our good deeds should be the fruit of our faith, not a means of earning something that we can not possibly pay for. So, I would say if someone is trying to "do good" to find a way into heaven, their efforts are in vain. Accept Christ, then try do as he commands: Love God and love people. If you do that, the good deeds are "result", not "cause".

a.k.a WOLF!
KeithC
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 17:29
I'm a bit conflicted on this thread. This is obviously clearly in breach of the AUP, but everyone seems to be getting along well (for once). As a Mod who hasn't partaken in this thread, I'll be keeping an eye on it and will close it in relative due time (unless it takes a quick and nasty turn). Until then, I know some people probably have a few more things they'd like to say.

-Keith

-Keith

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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 17:38
As long as no one is "debating", I think it closely walks the AUP line. If arguments break out and people start telling each other why they are wrong, I'll be the first to lock it.

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KeithC
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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 17:51
Then I wash my hands of it.

-Keith

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Posted: 31st Mar 2011 19:54
Quote: "Mutations that can change an entire organism only happen when the organism is only a single cell, or a handful of cells.
Mutations happen all the time, but because there are so many cells in the body, a single mutation in one cell of the body is not enough to cause an entire change to the organism.

So the "egg" must come first."

Ah I see, I wasn't looking at it that way. Thanks.

Quote: "Let's be honest, humans are horribly selfish creatures, I mean not a single human has ever done something out of pure kindness, bar Jesus, if you are thus inclined to believe he existed."

I have done many things out of pure kindness, if you empathise with people you want to help them out even if it costs you. Yes it makes you feel good but that's not a bad thing. If everyone took a minute to help each other we'd all have much happier lives. The more you give, the better your life will be. Jesus said something like that I'm sure lol


Everything worthwhile requires effort.
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Posted: 1st Apr 2011 01:48 Edited at: 1st Apr 2011 01:58
Quote: "Conversely a positive mutation causes increased survivability and will mean the individual carrying it has a greater chance of producing successful offspring, who have the same competitive advantage. So the proportion with the positive mutation increases over time."


That's an excellent explanation. In case people still don't quite understand, I'll explain the simplified example which made me see how Evolution could work.

Let's say there are some horses who are living near some tall trees. Most of the horses have normal-sized necks and so eat as much as they can reach. One horse happens to have a genetic mutation which gives it a longer neck. This allows it to reach the higher branches and eat enough to survive. Most of the other horses starve because they can't reach the upper branches. The horse with a slightly longer neck doesn't die because it has enough food; it reproduces and its offspring also have long necks. Over time, the horses which happen to have longer necks tend to do better than those with shorter necks, which means that, over many generations (taking thousands of years) the species's necks get longer. Eventually you get giraffes.
Quote: "
If one of my Christian friends is right, as long as we've behaved ourselves, even though I'm a non-believer, I could be joining you in heaven."

The way I was taught in Sunday school, you can only get into heaven if you are completely free of sin. That means you never got angry, you never swore, you never had negative thoughts towards anyone, you never told a lie etc. This is actually impossible for a human being. This means that everyone who died before the coming of Christ - so everyone in the Old Testament - went straight to hell, because no matter how much God favoured them, they still sinned.

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was effectively a way to bypass this. When he died (or possibly during his suffering on the cross, I was never sure on that point) he took all of mankind's sins onto himself and suffered for all of them. This means that people can go to heaven.

But they can only do so if they ask God to forgive them for their sins and are truly sorry for them. And God, being omniscient, knows whether you're truly sorry. As long as you repent after your sins, you will go to heaven when you die. But, if you sin again (which you probably will), then you're going to have to repent again.

I suppose this might seem a bit unfair, since someone who happened to repent at the last moment would go to heaven, while someone else who had repented dutifully day after day but was hit by a car after swearing at someone would go to hell. But, ultimately, I got the impression that God was in charge and God was completely just, so that ultimately you would go to heaven if you deserved it and everything would work out.

By the way, I don't believe this anymore but I do think it's very interesting. Also, this is just what I was taught; there are Christians who have different views to these.

Quote: "I see what you are saying. The only flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that moral diversity means there is no absolute standard. That is much like saying that if 20 students are given a complex algebra problem and all 20 of them get it wrong, we therefore ought to make up our own answer. But perhaps this is not what you meant. "


I see what you're saying. But let's say 20 students have the question "Find x if x+y=0 and y=6" and all get it wrong. It is empirically true that x must equal -6, and no other answer can possibly yield a correct answer. The only way you could somehow change the answer would be to completely redefine the way we think about numbers, and say that the plus sign doesn't actually mean "add", or that the symbol "6" doesn't mean "the integer between 5 and 7" but actually refers to some other number. Even with all this alteration, though, you would only have changed the way the problem is presented; whichever way you look at it, there must always be a particular answer to this particular problem, even if you were to try to disguise that fact by writing it differently.

Morals - as I understand them - are different. If there is no God, then there is no external force telling us that certain things are bad and certain things are good. Instead, there is only the universe, which is a lot of particles moving and interacting in space and time. The universe has certain laws, like those of gravity or thermodynamics; the laws of mathematics are similar in that they cannot be changed, and are linked to the universe's essential, inherent nature.

Morals are something created by mankind, though. If you talk to someone on the street and ask them whether killing is wrong, they will probably say that killing is wrong. But if you were to ask someone from 500,000 years ago this question, they would probably say "Killing someone from my village is wrong, but killing someone from outside the village is right." Asking a Roman would probably get you "Killing a Roman is wrong, but killing barbarians is right." Even today, some people would say that killing an innocent person is wrong, but killing a serial killer is right; presumably, some people out there must be of the opinion that killing anyone they disagree with is right, or even that killing anyone who is not *them* is right. And who are we to disagree? We have no absolute moral standard: after all, what does "right" mean? It is only a concept, and concepts only exist inside people's heads, so if someone else believes that something is right then, for them, it must be, even if we find it completely disgusting. I don't think there is an absolute standard in morality because I just don't see any evidence for one. People just seem to reinterpret the rules as they see fit. A bunch of people could found a society nowadays whose first rule is that killing anyone outside the group is good and must be done at any opportunity. To an extent, this is already happening: terrorists (whether Islamic or not) seem to work on this basis, that they are right and that everyone else is so utterly wrong that killing them is good. To us, this is wrong, but does that really mean anything? To the terrorists, this is right. So who is right: us or them? At the end of the day, both sides are just groups of people with particular views; there's nothing which makes either side more "right" than the other.

Having said that, I think that there is a common basis for morality which is probably derived from our evolutionary past. Scientists have seen evidence of altruism among animals towards their own offspring and others of their own tribe; they attribute this to what Dawkins calls the selfish gene. This is where a gene causes its carrier to behave altruistically; this may result in the death of this particular carrier, but it will probably result in the survival of the carrier's offspring or relatives, who probably also have the gene, and will therefore result in the gene being carried on through the generations. I think this is probably the root of our instinctive kindness.

Which is not to say that, just because kindness has its origin in evolution, that it's a bad thing. I personally think love and kindness are wonderful things, and I'm very glad that they did develop. I don't think they were given to us by a deity, but we've got them all the same so we might as well enjoy them and bring each other happiness.

Also, this is just my opinion. I respect others' opinions; in fact, if there's one thing I can be more or less sure about, it's that I don't have all the answers. So please don't take this as my absolute, rock-solid conviction about how life fits together.

Secretary of Unknowable Knowledge for the Rock/Dink administration '08
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Posted: 1st Apr 2011 05:23 Edited at: 1st Apr 2011 05:42
Thanks for responding Darth Kiwi. I hope you won't take offense at my engaging your arguments. I'm merely going to state why I think there are problems with them, and you are free to respond.

Quote: "Let's say there are some horses who are living near some tall trees..."


I don't deny that this scenario you wrote makes sense or is logical. I would just say that it is far more likely that a negative mutation would come about that would eliminate members of the species. These positive mutations are the exception. And of course, this fails to address where the horse came from in the first place. In order for this type of mutation and evolution to occur, you need a living species to work with.

Quote: "By the way, I don't believe this anymore but I do think it's very interesting. Also, this is just what I was taught; there are Christians who have different views to these."


There definitely are. The Bible no where says that if you don't get the chance to repent after sinning you will go to hell. The Bible doesn't speak in terms of repenting for each sin that you commit (though you are supposed to of course). In actuality, if you believe in Jesus Christ and follow him, you will be saved no matter what (unless you leave your faith and turn against him). It is a one-time deal, and you don't have to worry about not getting the chance to repent. Nevertheless, you are supposed to repent. If you are a Christian, you will want to repent.

As far as the Old Testament goes, those people who followed God certainly did go to heaven. God gave them a temporary sacrificial system, where he allowed animals to be sacrificed instead of punishing them for their sins. But as the Bible makes clear:

"These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

So the people in the Old Testament who followed this system were saved, but their sins were actually payed for by Jesus' death, not the animals, which were "the shadow". God looked at their sacrifices and said, "I will accept these sacrifices in anticipation of my own sacrifice".

Quote: "I see what you're saying. But let's say 20 students have the question "Find x if x+y=0 and y=6" and all get it wrong. It is empirically true that x must equal -6, and no other answer can possibly yield a correct answer. The only way you could somehow change the answer would be to completely redefine the way we think about numbers, and say that the plus sign doesn't actually mean "add", or that the symbol "6" doesn't mean "the integer between 5 and 7" but actually refers to some other number. Even with all this alteration, though, you would only have changed the way the problem is presented; whichever way you look at it, there must always be a particular answer to this particular problem, even if you were to try to disguise that fact by writing it differently."


I understand what you are saying. Just note that I was not trying to compare the algebra problem to religion (which is where the analogy breaks down). I was simply trying to make the point that a variety of opinions does not mean that there is no answer. The fact that there are many religions in the world is no reason to conclude that there is no true religion; it is actually a reason to conclude that there are in fact many different religions, and that is all! We would not conclude that a particular scientific fact is false simply because there are many different theories about that particular fact. We rather look for the right one.

About morals, I agree that if there were no God we would have to turn to man as the source for morals. But this assumes that there is no God. I also find it hard to believe that morals would have anything to do with Evolution or could exist without God.

Take this as an example showing why this is problematic. In your case, you would argue that both good morals and bad morals have evolved. For example, feelings of kindness evolved into what they are, and also feelings of hatred. But isn't there something outside of both of those morals that tells us one is preferred over the other? Why value kindness over hatred? There is no reason to if there is no absolute standard. Even if you say it preserves the species to be kind, we then must ask why that is a good thing? And in fact, a lot of morals have nothing to do with preserving the species.

That's all I have to say at this point. Feel free to respond.


EDIT: Sorry jrowe, I missed your post. I'll edit with my answer here.

Ok, in answer to the part about life, I see what you are saying. The question is, when did this lifeless matter suddenly cross the line and become able to reproduce? That's mainly what I can't understand.

Also, I find the assumption that life is a species that can reproduce quite arbitrary. Also, there are people who are completely unable to reproduce (perhaps they have been sterilized). Yet, we do not say that they are dead, do we?

In answer to your second part, I think this assumes that a negative mutation results in death for that member of the species. Why can it not work progressively, as with a positive mutation? That is, a negative mutation occurs, and that member survives and reproduces. Eventually, the whole species becomes extremely weak because of that one member's offspring slowly weakening the species, and then dies, or at least stays at its weak point.

I know what you will say in response to this, that those species died and the ones that survived were those that mutated positively. (This of course is the basis of natural selection.) But I find this and natural selection to be highly presumptive and question-begging. Essentially, it is like saying, "the species we have exist because they survived; that's how we know they survived".

Michael Ruse said it better:

"It [natural selection]... is simply a redescription of what is going on-it is a “tautology,” a necessary truth since it tells you that the fittest survive but then the fittest are defined as those that survive!"

(from "The Evolution Wars: a Guide to the Debates")

WOW. Long post.
n008
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2011 05:30 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2011 05:32
Uhhh....

Humans are a social species. Things that bring about negative feelings between members of a group, i.e. things we consider 'bad' or 'immoral' (For the most part) today, are detrimental to the society, and so are selected against. You'll find, however, that these actions still occur, because self-preservation is a very important aspect of the human psyche.

I don't see why you need a god for morals. By definition, the abrahamic god transcends... Everything. Making him unnecessary and thus impossible to relate to. The views of an infinite being cannot be subjective, yet human morals clearly are, as they apply only to humans, and they change. There is no objective moral code.

In some countries it is not considered abnormal for females to be circumcised, though in nearly all western societies this is viewed as intensely immoral and cruel.

The greeks had little to no problems with paedophilia between boys and their mentors.

If anything, the human system of morals is just a reflection of evolution: we change and adapt as we grow as a population.

And fyi, natural selection is not a tautology. Natural Selection is the observation that certain organisms will survive through adaptation as a population in response to their environment, filling their own niche, while others who may not adapt will die out. A an example of a logical tautology would be something you cannot prove, and that must be accepted, i.e. 2 + 2 = 4.

It is the first step you must take in order to make further observations such as the fact of heredity, and thus genetic drift, speciation, etc...

And what is considered alive?

Many people do not consider viruses to be alive, yet they are capable of reproduction, and also evolution. Another example of 'lifeless' life are prions - proteins which can self-propagate. A better question is 'why do we draw these distinctions?'

The answer is that the human mind is not evolved to deal with these things. The universe is not a set of discrete entities, however in order to survive in it, our brains must perceive it that way. We must realize that a stick is different from a tree, and that a rock is not the same as the ground. Even though this is NOT how the universe actually is- it is how we must think of it in order for us to be able to navigate through it and survive.

Life as a definition is incredibly vague and so it is not unsurprising that many people have misconceptions about it. But let me be clear- life is entirely arbitrary. There is no 'force' which makes something alive. For example, what stops a crystal from being alive? A crystal can grow, and has a specific pattern that it grows in. It is one of the simplest self-organizing entities we know of.

It's just a label that we will bend and apply where we find it useful. Currently it is not useful to consider a crystal to be alive, but it is useful to consider a virus to be alive.

Arguing about what defines life is pointless since ultimately we will arbitrarily decide what is or is not alive.

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2011 06:15 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2011 06:19
Honestly one of the things that drives me to believe in God is the integrity of the human soul. If you think of it, it's really the only sensable solution, at least to a human standard. One thing I think of to enforce this is death. If one were to believe that if you die, and then you're *gone*, I wouldn't think of that as possible. Because think about it, can anyone really comprehend death? After you die, it wouldn't be comprehendable, nor realistic. If you'd think of yourself floating in some black void for all eternity, technically you still exist, you may not physically exist, but your soul does in one way or another. I just believe any other way of thinking of it is unreasonable.

So I do think life has a purpose, and it is arbitrary, but to some extent. All humans on the face of the earth are really meant to be too "stupid" to completely understand the granularities of life, we can only comprehend it as much as we can. I think that God, with the incentive of eternal life, gives quality and integrity to our lives, he gives us a purpose. I don't believe we've just been sporatically dropped in this vast universe by chance, just in the right conditions to survive. What we live in is too complex and astounding to not have a creator.

Hopefully this can give a few people a perspective of how small we are compared to what God created for us:



n008
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2011 06:48
When you die your neurons stop firing so your consciousness disperses and 'you' as you exist as a conscious entity becomes no more.

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2011 08:07
Quote: "Honestly one of the things that drives me to believe in God is the integrity of the human soul. If you think of it, it's really the only sensable solution"


Woah there, slow yo roll! "Only sensible solution"?, saying stuff like that crosses a line we didn't cross in this thread before. But just to respond, human consciousness and the way our minds work aren't really understood yet, in fact we're not even close. It's really not fair to give up on understanding it just yet...

BiggAdd
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2011 11:10 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2011 11:15
Evolution and the mechanism behind it (Natural Selection) is an observable fact. Gravity is understood less than Evolution in Scientific terms.

You've all experienced the effects of natural selection and evolution. Why do you think you keep having to get flu jabs every year (for those that need it)?

The word theory in science doesn't mean "not true yet". It just means a set of principles to describe observed phenomena.
If you don't accept Evolution because its called a "Theory", then you don't accept Gravity (as that is also a Scientific Theory).


If you still don't accept Evolution, its got to be down to some misunderstanding on what Evolution actually is. I honestly recommend reading up on it, from articles written by scientists.
Evolution does not disprove the possibility of a God, but it does disprove Creation (In terms of God creating humans and the rest of the species like we are now).


In terms of what Science doesn't know (In terms of our Universe), we don't know what happened before the Big Bang (which is another Scientific Theory, which means its an observable "truth").

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Posted: 2nd Apr 2011 11:19
Quote: "Evolution does not disprove the possibility of a God, but it does disprove Creation (In terms of God creating humans and the rest of the species like we are now)."


That's a bit much. Disproving creationism? I would take issue with that one.


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BiggAdd
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2011 11:28 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2011 11:50
Quote: "That's a bit much. Disproving creationism? I would take issue with that one."


I didn't say that though, I added that it disproves creationism in the respects that a god created Humans and the other species as we are now.

A God could have created earlier versions of life however.

No offence was intended, just saying what Science knows.

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