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Geek Culture / I made a 4d raycaster! Well... kind of...

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 11:44 Edited at: 7th Apr 2011 11:45
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NO TIME! TIME IS NOT A PART OF THIS! TIME IS IN PHYSICS! The only reason time pops up is because everything we see happens over time.

Lets say you're graphing a line. If you're graphing a line, you don't say that you're graphing x and y over time! Of course you could argue that it's technically true, because your hand can't drag a pencil across the page instantly, but that's a side point, it's obvious, it's a given, and all arguing that would do is waste time! (lol)

The pictures are animated over change in rotation. Sure you see them over time, but that's not the point. So take time out of this. For the sake of this page, TIME IS NOT THE 4TH DIMENSION. (i'm not stating that as a fact in physics, but just for the sake of this page, for the above reasons)





Okay. Now, imagine you're a two dimensional person. You can only see a single line from your eyes - like how we see a single plane from our eyes. If you observed the projection of a cube rotating, you wouldn't understand it a bit! The AREA of the box you saw on the ground would be changing and morphing, and though we know that the volume is conserved, it would be completely unintuitive to a 2d person! You're a 2d person claiming the 3rd dimension is impossible and illogical! (just raise the dimensions 1 higher).

At it's simplest form, the "dimension" is just the number of coordinates.
1d: <1.0>
2d: <1.0,2.4>
3d: <1.0,2.4,5.2>
3d: <1.4,2.6,12.4,18.9>
etc.

Using some transformation math, you can project those coordinates onto a lower dimension.

(For example, a vertice of a cube, when projected into 2d - like your computer does in video games - could go from point <1.0,5.2,5.4> to <2.5,2.4> )


THE BEST EXAMPLE is the second image from the left, at the very top of the page. THIS OBJECT IS NOT CHANGING. You're just viewing it from a different angle! it looks like it's morphing to us because we're not familiar with four dimensional objects - much like the 2d being sees a rotating projection of a cube as a bunch of twisting, morphing boxes.


Tell me if there's a broken link to images in a thread I post, and I'll fix 'em.
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Quik
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 11:50
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Quote: "THIS OBJECT IS NOT CHANGING. You're just viewing it from a different angle!
"


and that has how much to do with a 4th dimension?
because, say in real life, things change perspective as soon as you move your head, and in games, as soon as you move the mouse, movies all the time aswell
are you claiming, thats a 4th dimension, and if so doesnt that mean that everything we see is 4d because of perspective?


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 12:03
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*cough*
A rotation upon a set of points leaves that set of points unchanged relative to each other - If you rotate your mouse, it's still a mouse.

In the first dimension, rotation is hardly defined. In the second dimension, you can adjust yaw, and in the third dimension, you have yaw pitch and roll. So in the fourth dimension, there's another -


yknow what never mind. I'll just sound like a broken record. The trouble with understanding the fourth dimension stems from the fact that all our spatial recognition recognizes it the third dimension. I'll be happy to show you the math involved, if you want to learn about projections and rotations.


Tell me if there's a broken link to images in a thread I post, and I'll fix 'em.
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PrimalBeans
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 12:09 Edited at: 7th Apr 2011 12:16
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No if you can get it through our thick skulls then we get it... Im not doubting that there is like i call it "slang" for the cool effect your creating... but honesly... an object in our world only needs 3 dimensions to define it. So throw all the jargon you want at it... your using a special bit of math to create what your creating... but the bottom line is the jargon is bull crap. NOT YOUR WORK and i understand what your talking about it just doesnt hold up to its title... not your fault i just dont like the termonology. thats all.

I mean really the computer screen is realy not a 3d field... it just has the ability to display a 2d image that has the perspective render of a 3d scene... makes for a hard to imagine scenario without some background... thats just like what im seeing you made... its just a 2d rendering of someting that looks like its been created in a mathmatical spacial environment and translated to a screen. So before you call be a stuborn dummy explain to me how this defies math and science and how this isnt jargon...

Like i said before... honestly i think you have some really cool stuff... the terms are a little misleading though... regardless of who created them.. thats just how i see it.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 12:19
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But 3d video games aren't in "our world". They're just projections adhering to the same rules as the images I've generated!


Tell me if there's a broken link to images in a thread I post, and I'll fix 'em.
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PrimalBeans
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 12:35
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Im not so sure that your reading my posts lol... I just dont like the termonology.. thats all.. and if you concider 3d it is applying to all real dimensional objects in our world... you your desk your cat your face.... are all definable in 3 dimensions... no more no less... and the images that mimic that reality on you computer screen adhere to those dynamics... i just dont see were a forth dimension fits into that scheme... thats all..

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 12:48
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:\ allz I'm doing is annoying myself by trying to come up with more arguments... I still think I'm right () but I'd rather drop it and spend this time coding!


Tell me if there's a broken link to images in a thread I post, and I'll fix 'em.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 13:25 Edited at: 7th Apr 2011 16:07
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We don't see the 4th dimension (only one slice of it, the one we're all positioned in, that is, if there is a 4th dimension). This is why we don't define our world in it.

The earth is round, but we perceive it to be flat when we're standing on it. Our maps are flat.

Because we only see the earth as flat doesn't actually make it flat.

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thenerd
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 13:46 Edited at: 7th Apr 2011 13:49
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Quote: "and if you concider 3d it is applying to all real dimensional objects in our world... you your desk your cat your face.... are all definable in 3 dimensions... no more no less... and the images that mimic that reality on you computer screen adhere to those dynamics... i just dont see were a forth dimension fits into that scheme... thats all.."

But the images on the computer screen are just a 2d projection, and don't need to obey those rules; they are strictly mathematical. A fourth dimension can fit into a simulation because it is just a concept... We do know (or think) that our world only has three physical dimensions, because we live in it. But a world in a computer is not physical. It could have as many "dimensions" as someone wanted, but really what you are seeing is just a 2d projection of a world, no matter how many conceptual dimensions there are.

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Slow Programmer
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Posted: 7th Apr 2011 17:23
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"Superstring theory needs nine spatial dimensions." That should give a few people here a headache We live in a 3d world, but that does not mean there are not other dimensions. My understanding of the OP is that a 4d object is being projected as well as possible onto a 2d screen. The price you pay to see 4d is the loss of two dimensions. You are basically seeing a shadow of a shadow. Perhaps when 3d displays mature it will be possible to visualize 4d objects better since there will be only the loss of one dimension.

One must remember that the world as we see it is limited by our own bodies and how we interact with our surroundings. Because we don't see certain things in our daily experiences it does not mean they are not there. A few hundred years ago many people thought they knew everything that was to be known. To suggest that the earth revolved around the sun could get you locked up. All evidence pointed to a earth centered universe. Obviously, they were wrong and we can look back and ask how they could have been so stupid. Of course in a few hundred year people will be looking back at our works and asking the same thing. Ironically (to this post anyway), the earth centered universe was disproven by a new way to looking at things. It was called a telescope and it changed everything because people could see things never seen before.

http://ctp.berkeley.edu/extraD.html

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RalphY
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Posted: 8th Apr 2011 00:59
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I really suggest anyone struggling to understand this watch the Carl Sagan video Slow Programmer posted. Sagan explains it quite elegantly (as always).

Go banana! | Super Nintendo Chalmers! | When I grow up I'm going to Bovine University!
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