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Geek Culture / I have a hard math problem for you guys ;)

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 19th Apr 2011 23:12 Edited at: 19th Apr 2011 23:14
Okay, so the basic setup is this. You have two poles, each 100ft high. There is a string going from the top of one pole to the top of another pole. The length of this string is 150 feet.
So, the curve the string forms is a "catenary curve".
If very bottom of this curve is 25 feet from the ground, how far apart are the poles? (and don't say the diameter of the earth O_o)

Here's a diagram:


And the equation of a catenary, should you choose to use it, is this:
c(x)=a*cosh(x/a)
So for a general catenary, you would calculate for c(x-offset_x)+offset_y


If anyone figures it out immediately, don't spoil it. This is kind of a jerk question b][/b]>


[edit]
oh yeah, cosh(x) is the hyperbolic cosine of x.


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Phaelax
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 00:35 Edited at: 20th Apr 2011 00:46
Intriguing problem, I must look into this!

Is 'a' the tangent of the arc?

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Tiborko
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 00:46
hmmm... i think those poles are veeery close to eachother.

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heyufool1
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 01:29
I know da answer

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OrzeL
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 01:35
haha nice almost missed it lol
Phaelax
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 01:47
I can give an estimate, and agree the poles would be very close together.

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Teh Stone
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 02:09
I don't know how missed that, that's really funny, I think I would of spotted it if you didn't confuse me with catenary functions
Indicium
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 02:25
I feel stupid

AndrewT
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 03:06 Edited at: 20th Apr 2011 03:36
Hahahaha I had worked it out on paper and (incorrectly!) calculated the answer down to like seven decimal places, then took another look at the image and realized how dumb I am.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 05:13 Edited at: 20th Apr 2011 05:15
is there a joke here im just not getting?


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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 05:17
I think it's a hilarious bit of misdirection


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JLMoondog
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 06:07
Mr. Wolfgang Pauli would have a field day with this!

Zotoaster
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 16:21
I don't get it =(

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Isocadia
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 19:19
I don't get it either
Venge
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 19:21
budokaiman
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 19:35
It took me a few minutes, when I saw it I couldn't believe that I missed it.

Tiborko
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 22:02
I almost nailed it :p

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Diggsey
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 22:03
The diagram is slightly misleading

[b]
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 20th Apr 2011 22:53
but not innacurate


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Diggsey
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Posted: 21st Apr 2011 01:43 Edited at: 21st Apr 2011 01:50
I solved it generally

Let w = half the distance between the poles
Let h = the vertical distance from the lowest point of the rope to the top
Let l = the length of the rope

Then
w=ln((l+2h)/(l-2h))*(l^2-4*h^2)/(8*h)

Working:


Also, given the conditions of the question, that is not actually a catenary curve. As you said yourself, a catenary curve is defined as:
y=a*cosh(x/a)

For the rope to hang as you described, 'a' must be equal to zero, which it obviously cannot be!

[b]
Teh Stone
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Posted: 21st Apr 2011 01:47
that working has just blown my mind
Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Apr 2011 06:28 Edited at: 21st Apr 2011 06:29
Logically it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. If you take a 150m piece of string and 'halve' it (ie. hold both ends together) the longest you can make it is 75m (with no difference in location between the ends), and since the poles that the string connects to is only 100m the lowest the string can reach is 25m, which is where both poles are in the same location.



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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 21st Apr 2011 07:41
Yeah, it's painfully obvious once you figure it out. It's all about misdirection.

I forget if I've posted it here before, but this is another one of my favorites:


Three people check into a hotel. The cost is $10 a night, so they pay the clerk $30 total. After they've left, the clerk realizes that there's been a mistake - the total should have only been $25. So, he gives the bag body $5 to return to the people. On his way up, he realizes that he can't split the $5 evenly amongst three people, so he refunds each person $1, and pockets the remaining $2. So, now, each person has paid $9. Three people paying $9, plus the two that the bag boy has, comes out to a total of $29. Where'd the missing dollar go?


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4125
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Posted: 21st Apr 2011 10:23
Quote: "Three people check into a hotel. The cost is $10 a night, so they pay the clerk $30 total. After they've left, the clerk realizes that there's been a mistake - the total should have only been $25. So, he gives the bag body $5 to return to the people. On his way up, he realizes that he can't split the $5 evenly amongst three people, so he refunds each person $1, and pockets the remaining $2. So, now, each person has paid $9. Three people paying $9, plus the two that the bag boy has, comes out to a total of $29. Where'd the missing dollar go?"


I'll give it a shot. There is no missing dollar. Adding $9 x 3 People = $27. Then you subtract instead of adding the $2 so it would equal $25. Which is equal to the cost of the total.

I remember something similar sometime ago. Was I right ? It was only a guess. I suck at math...

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 21st Apr 2011 10:32
Yeah, that's the answer xD

I read this question online, and I was following it like "uhuh, okay, makes sense" until the VERY last line. The last line blew my mind, and it took me a couple hours to realize the catch


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Phaelax
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Posted: 21st Apr 2011 19:23
The problem does assume the rope has 0 elasticity. Otherwise, weight would play a factor in the distance apart, but only slightly.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 21st Apr 2011 21:19
Well yeah... but when has there ever been a physics problem that takes everything into account?


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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th May 2011 10:17 Edited at: 8th May 2011 10:18
EDIT

SPOILER!!!





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