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Geek Culture / Thermodynamics. Which is cheaper?

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Fallout
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Posted: 19th May 2011 10:21
Ok, I thought I'd post about this here to get some input from a more scientifically/educated crowd. Here's the thing ...

I live in a house with oil fired central heating. Everyone knows that at the moment a tank of oil costs approximately 8 trillion pounds, so while it's nice and warm and we don't need our heating, we're using the immersion heater for hot water.

Each morning I get up and flick the switch, and it bubbles away for about 30 mins before I switch it off again. This gives us enough hot water for all washing up and for me to wash my horrifically foul and stinking body in the shower. Sometimes I'll flick it on for another 30 mins in the evening if my girlfriend is having a shower, for example.

So here's the thing. The mrs works at a facility with these engineers who are responsible for important cooling and heating systems, and they have told her that it is more efficient to keep the immersion heater on or turn it on regularly to maintain the heat, than it is to heat the tank from cold (or whatever temperature it's fallen to) once per day. These people apparently have degrees (I'm thinking from maybe a Nigerian online university handing out diplomas for £5) and know their stuff.

Obviously that last comment has slightly hinted at my thoughts on the subject, but rather than taint the debate with my own thoughts, I want to hear what the educated scientists here have to say.

Essentially, which is cheaper:
A. Heating a large body of cold water to a specific temperature once per day.
B. Heating it once, then maintaining that temperature constantly.

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 19th May 2011 11:41
bah, I started going through the math in my head then realized I don't know enough physics to calculate it all out.

Uhh, a couple things would help to figure out a solution:

(1) the temperature of the water after heating
(2) the temperature of the water before heating (/environment)
(3) the amount of water in the tank


Tell me if there's a broken link to images in a thread I post, and I'll fix 'em.
bitJericho
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Posted: 19th May 2011 13:11
This will answer your question: http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4460-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B000RGF29Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305799898&sr=8-1

[center]Jerico for President. Obese for VP
My dear tomato \ Please let me classify you \ A fregetable.
TheComet
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Posted: 19th May 2011 13:11 Edited at: 19th May 2011 13:13
Quote: "B. Heating it once, then maintaining that temperature constantly."


That would seem more effective in my mind, though to fully calculate the exact result, I will need:

1) the surrounding temperature (°C)
2) what temperature you heat the fluid to (°C)
3) thermal resistance of the insulation (thermal resistance of the liquid to ambient) (°C/W)
4) volume of the tank (m^3)

If you don't know the thermal resistance, you can also just tell me how thick the insulation is, what material it's made of, and the effective outside area of the tank.

TheComet

Fallout
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Posted: 19th May 2011 13:24 Edited at: 19th May 2011 13:28
I always go for an extrapolated example if it's not clear. When you extrapolate the scenario, it usually becomes clear without having to do any calculations.

What these heating engineer experts (apparently) are claiming is it's cheaper to maintain water at a temperature, than heat it up from cold each time you want to use it. I can see why this seems intuitively right to some people, but it isn't.

So think of it this way.
- I will have two showers. One today, and one in a years time. The rest of the year I am happy to stink to high hell.
- Today, I heat the water for 1 hour and then shower.
- In 1 years time, when the tank has refilled and is obviously now back to room temperature, I heat the water again, then shower again.
- That's two full heats, from cold, in 1 year.

Their argument, in this extreme example, states that the water should be heated, I shower, and then the water is maintained at that heat for a whole year, before I shower again. And that should be cheaper than just heating it twice.

So energy used maintaining water at 60 degrees for an entire year is less than heating it from cold twice in 1 year. Extrapolate that to any time span. 1 million years, if you like.

Now, so long as the insulation is not perfect on the tank (which is impossible) it should be obvious to anyone that heating the water fully twice in 1 year uses less energy than maintaining water at 60 degrees for a whole year.

If that's true, then over shorter periods of time, say 6 months, that fact should remain true. Heating water fully twice in 6 months uses less energy than keeping it hot for 6 months. If that's true, then we can continue reducing the time period to a period such as a day, and it should still be true.

Energy is always lost to the environment, so as long as you heat the water above room temperature, energy is being lost. So the more time the water spends above room temperature, the more energy is lost to the environment.

Therefore, the way to use the least energy is reduce the amount of time the water spends above room temperature losing energy. So by allowing the water tank to go completely cold, you stop all energy loss. By maintaining it at a certain temperature, you continually lose energy.

When you also consider objects lose energy quicker the hotter they are, then you realise maintaining the temperature at it's maximum is losing energy at the fastest possible rate.

That's my understanding. I would take a bullet to the temple standing by that hypothesis! But because the mrs has been told this fact by someone with a BEng and a job in heating, I have to be wrong, of course.

So I need support!!!!

Edit: sorry, just missed the posts above! Hopefully my theory may convince you!

bitJericho
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Posted: 19th May 2011 14:40 Edited at: 19th May 2011 14:40
I think the idea is that the box will use almost no energy to keep it heated, and will use quite a bit of energy to heat it up.

So it may in fact be cheaper to keep it heated throughout the day. You can only figure that out through math or testing.

[center]Jerico for President. Obese for VP
My dear tomato \ Please let me classify you \ A fregetable.
Fallout
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Posted: 19th May 2011 17:10
Ok, here's some very basic maths with made up figures:

Assume the room temperature is freezing (0 degrees C)

LOSS OF ENERGY
The tank loses 0.1 degree of heat every minute, to the atmosphere, because of poor insulation.
Therefore it takes 1000 minutes (16 hours) for the tank to return from 100 degrees to 0 degrees C.

HEATING THE TANK
To heat the tank by 1 degree takes 0.01kWh.
So to heat the tank to 100 degrees takes 1kWh.
The immersion heater runs at 1kW, and therefore it takes 1 hour to heat the tank to 100 degrees from room temperature.
Loss of heat during this time is 0.1*60 = 6 degrees (we'll ignore this to keep stuff simple!)

HEATING THE TANK ONCE PER DAY OVER TWO DAYS
The tank is cold (0 degrees)
I turn the immersion on for 1 hour.
The tank reaches approximately 100 C.
1 kWh used
I turn it off.
The tank is cold 16 hours later (1 KW required the next day to heat the tank again)
I repeat the next morning
2 kWh used in total

HEATING THE TANK UP THEN MAINTAINING TEMP OVER 2 DAYS
- I turn the immersion on for 1 hour.
- The tank reaches approximately 100 C.
- 1 kWh used
- I leave it on
- The tank loses 0.1 C / minute
- 0.1 * 2880 (minutes in 2 days) = 228 C lost in total
- To heat 228C costs 228 * 0.01kW = 2.28kWH
3.28 kWh used in total

So, ignoring water usage, with these figures it's more efficient to heat the tank once per day.

More things to consider:
INSULATION
As we increase the efficiency of insulation (less C lost per minute), the figures converge on the same value. This value is 1kWh, the amount required to heat the tank up from cold. No energy is lost, it never needs to be switched on again.
So the more efficient the insulation, the less difference in energy use for each method, though heating once per day is always more efficient, up until 100% efficiency of insulation.

TEMPERATURE LOST
In reality, temperature is lost more quickly at higher temps. So it requires more energy to maintain the tank at 100C then it would at 50C, for example. So the heat loss is not linear, and therefore, the notion of the tank losing 0.1C/minute at 100C is unrealistic. If the insulation was this inefficient, the figures would be more like:
1 C lost per minute at 100C
0.1C lost per minute at 50C
0.01 lost per minute at 10C

So to maintain 100C, in this example, would require 10 times as much energy (30kWh). These figures aren't accurate, but again they show maintaining temperature at the hottest point uses large amounts of energy.

WATER USAGE
Usage of water replaces hot water with cold. It is effectively the same as reducing the quality of insulation. i.e. it just increases the heat loss per minute value. So with water usage taken into account, heat loss is greater (by an variable value), requiring more work to maintain the temperature.

There is no way to adjust the above figures to make it more efficient to keep the water hot. The only thing you can do is make it AS efficient, by eliminating any loss of energy by using perfect insulation.

I appreciate the maths/physics above is not perfect science, but it follows the basic principles, and I don't believe there are any other variables that affect this.

hehe. I'm glad I finally demonstrated that to myself with actual figures.

TheComet
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Posted: 19th May 2011 17:56
Quote: "LOSS OF ENERGYThe tank loses 0.1 degree of heat every minute, to the atmosphere, because of poor insulation.Therefore it takes 1000 minutes (16 hours) for the tank to return from 100 degrees to 0 degrees C."


That would be a linear decrease of heat, where it's actually exponential.

TheComet

bitJericho
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Posted: 19th May 2011 18:05
He noted that.

[center]Jerico for President. Obese for VP
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Fallout
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Posted: 19th May 2011 18:08
Yep. I mentioned that above. When you take the exponential of heat decrease into account, it makes leaving the heating on even less efficient.

BiggAdd
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Posted: 19th May 2011 19:23 Edited at: 19th May 2011 19:37
Quote: "B. Heating it once, then maintaining that temperature constantly."


This. As long as the water is that is being heated is well insulated.
The solution would be to buy some better insulation for your boiler, or buy a new boiler.

The problem you are having all boils down to how much heat is lost. If you were able to take temperature readings on your boiler, you might have a better chance to calculate how much energy it takes to heat up the water (if you know the volume of the fluid in the boiler) and how much heat is lost when you turn off the heater.

It also depends on how well your heater transfers its heat to the water.

But my instinct (I've also studied thermodynamics to an Engineering level) is that keeping the boiler on saves energy. (But thats a theoretical engineering problem)

But a lot of things are being assumed here, you can't really know for sure until you know some more data.
Because you have an oil fired central heating system, I think you might find its more economical to turn it off. It really does come down to how well insulated your boiler is and how well the heat is transferred from the heating element to the water.

Gingerkid Jack
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Posted: 19th May 2011 19:30
Quote: "all boils down to how much heat is lost."


Hehe boils. Was that an intended pun? But yeah I agree with BiggAdd I think that a well insulated boiler would need less energy to keep it hot than to reheat.

Gingerkid Jack - Aspiring Game Designer\3d Modeler
BiggAdd
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Posted: 19th May 2011 19:37
Quote: "Hehe boils. Was that an intended pun?"

Maybe..

Fallout
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Posted: 19th May 2011 23:07
It's very interesting to see how many of you guys think it's cheaper to keep the hot water on constant than turn it on when you need it. Do you all have your hot water on constant, or timed? Do you have your central heating on constant, or timed? If either of them are on timed, why are they not on constant if you believe it's cheaper to maintain a room or water boiler at a constant temperature, than heat it up when you need it warm?

TheComet
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Posted: 19th May 2011 23:10
Quote: "He noted that."


Sorry, was kind of running late for work and only read the first section of your post

TheComet

Fallout
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Posted: 19th May 2011 23:24
To be fair, it was a mammoth post.

Phaelax
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Posted: 20th May 2011 06:18
Quote: "
A. Heating a large body of cold water to a specific temperature once per day.
B. Heating it once, then maintaining that temperature constantly"


As people have already said, there are other factors to consider. Insulation is one, but so is the surrounding environmental temperature.

For the most part, I believe B is the correct answer. In the winter time, which do you do? Turn the heat off while you're at work or leave it on a constant temp all day? I believe it's cheaper(uses less energy) to keep the house temp regulated constantly.

Uncle Sam
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Posted: 20th May 2011 09:13
Chuck Norris takes cold showers.
Phaelax
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Posted: 20th May 2011 09:22
Pfft, I took cold showers all winter long. (condo had no heat) So I speak from experience, 3 min showers are completely possible!

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