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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Oslo, Norway Massacre 22/07/2011

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bergice
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 14:55
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Hi, I noticed there isn't a thread about this, so I created one so people can discuss and reflect on what has recently happened in Norway.

On 22/07/2011 a bomb went off in central Oslo, it killed 7 people and ruined many of the political structures in Norway. I live about 3 kilometers away from where it went off and even from here I heard a huge bang and the whole house was shaking. Shortly after the explosion there was reports of shootings on Utøya, a youth summer camp located near oslo. After a while 1 man was arrested, Anders Behring Breivik, and at that time there was reports of at least 10 killed.

I have stayed up all night to wait for more news and 3:30 the police confirmed that the number had increased to at least 80 killed on Utøya, all innocent teenagers.

I know people who are affected by this and people who were on Utøya but luckily made it out, but I think there should be a thread about this so please reflect your opinions on this. Thank you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356
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crispex
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 15:11
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I remember reading this as it happened online, terrible indeed. I'm still wondering what the motive was behind it. I just annoys me how the media automatically assumes from the start that it was Islamic extremists.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
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Deathcow
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 17:15 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2011 17:16
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This is very sad that something like this has happened. It amazes me how someone can think this is OK to murder, but I guess for Norway it is even more shocking because it has not happened before on this scale.

From what the BBC is saying now the guy is a neo-nazi or has links to them, but it makes little difference which group he says he is from.

Hopefully the families and victims can get through this shocking event.

DC

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flashing snall
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 17:36
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Newspaper came today, death count between the shootings and the bombing is 87. Horrible.

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_Pauli_
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 17:53
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My thoughts are with all the victims and their families.
I've heard it in the news yesterday and now the number has grown to 87?! Terrible.

When things like that happen I always have to think about possible consequences. Like how will you ever be able to prevent one idiot from doing such terrible things? I mean we are not talking about a third world country or something, I think northern european countries are mostly progressive and liberal. Then such a nationalist moron destroys so many lifes...
It's really depressing.

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xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 18:19
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I don't think these types of actions are limited to or associated with any particular religion, political affiliation, sexual orientation, or country club membership, and I think we should not be referring to them as such. It was no idea, way of life, or belief that did this deed. It was a person.

As strongly as I believe in my way of life, I couldn't go on a killing spree against or because of what others think, do or believe. This is a sick person. That's all. Let's leave the other affiliations out of it.

There's really not much you can say when something like this happens. As odd as it may sound, I hope no one here is directly affected by it. My sympathy to all of the families and friends.

Brian.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 18:53
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Quote: "I don't think these types of actions are limited to or associated with any particular religion, political affiliation, sexual orientation, or country club membership, and I think we should not be referring to them as such. It was no idea, way of life, or belief that did this deed. It was a person."


Really, and what would your response have been if he was islamic? Would you be posting the same thing?

If you ask me, it's all bad, but maybe we should stop takling about this stuff.

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xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 19:37
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Quote: "Really, and what would your response have been if he was islamic?"


Irrelevant, but I'm agnostic. Case in point proves it's not restricted to any one group. Why don't we blame guns for the murders? I think it's because a person did it.

Brian.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 20:28
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Nobody ever says the gun made me do it... your argument doesn't make sense.

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xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 20:37
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What argument? I wasn't making one. I'm just saying that my response wouldn't be any different if the guy were Islamic. I wouldn't blame Islam any more than I would the gun. People kill people.

Brian.

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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 20:38
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Quote: "I just annoys me how the media automatically assumes from the start that it was Islamic extremists."


If you add up all the terrorist events from the past 50 years, the odds are for rather than against.

This is an incredible waste of life and it's sad.


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xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 20:41
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Quote: "I just annoys me how the media automatically assumes from the start that it was Islamic extremists."


I didn't see any news outlets that blamed Islamic extremists, but if they did then is quite funny. For years they have been avoiding saying it, and now that they have they were wrong.

Brian.

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crispex
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 20:42
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Quote: "If you add up all the terrorist events from the past 50 years, the odds are for rather than against."


Oh of course, but all major religious groups have had their..."issues" in relation to this. Regardless of what motivation was behind it, it's sick.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 20:54
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I'm glad they captured the suspect alive, because usually they take the cowards way out. At least now he can face charges and the death penalty. Over 90 people now... crazy.


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crispex
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 20:57
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Norway doesn't have the death penalty, but he'll spend the rest of his life in jail.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
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SageTech
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:04
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I saw the headline yesterday at work when it was something like 9 Deaths...now it's 90+, its a very tragic situation, to say the least. I agree with Jeku though, I'm glad they got him alive. Now what he has done will weigh on his conscience for the rest of his pathetic life.
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Indicium
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:05
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I disagree with the death penalty for stuff like this, that way they're not suffering for what they've done. He should spend the rest of his life in a room with a bed and a toilet and the worst food imaginable.

It's really sad that this has happened, there are some sick people in the world.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:27 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2011 21:28
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Well, if it's anything like the U.S.A. he's not gonna get the worst food in his life or a tiny room with a bed and toilet. He's going to get a modern prison with decent food, heat, AC, recess, socialization, TV, internet, movies, and whatever else.

This man does not deserve to live. He took 87 lives. How can anyone ever be trusted after that, and why does he deserve free lodging and protection at a prison for the next 40 years until he dies of old age. You make your own decisions in your own life. If you choose to kill 87 people you choose the maximum punishment by law. It seems a bit sick that the taxpayers, especially of the 87 affected families of Norway will have to pay for him to sit in prison for the rest of his life.

http://lossofanonymity.wordpress.com
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Doomster
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:32 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2011 21:48
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Quote: "I'm glad they captured the suspect alive"


Quote: "face charges and the death penalty"


...

I agree with Indicium, death penalty doesn't help at all - sick people will still be sick and do horrible things and I don't think that anyone feels better when someone just gets killed for the crimes he did.

I personally think it's a bigger punishment to let the criminals stay in a tiny cell and think and reflect about what they did, why they did it and what they have done to the victims.

By killing a murderer... you just make your own hands dirty as well and doing the same horrible thing they did - ending the life of another human being.

He deserves to be punished, but death penalty is the wrong thing to go about, imho, although I do agree that someone like him, or prisoners in general, shouldn't get all the "luxury" that even some hard working people can't afford (like electronic stuff, etc.), but rather only what's really neccessary, like some food and water.

I mean, it's not like we're living in the medieval times anymore.

Anyway, my thoughts go out to all the families and friends that lost their beloved ones that horrible day.

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:38 Edited at: 24th Jul 2011 09:31
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Quote: "I disagree with the death penalty for stuff like this, that way they're not suffering for what they've done. He should spend the rest of his life in a room with a bed and a toilet and the worst food imaginable."

I love when people post things like this... It shows their ignorance of the prison system. They aren't fed the "worst food" imaginable. In fact, they are fed pretty damn well for being in prison. I wouldn't go out to a prison restaurant mind you... But it's not like you can't swallow it without being satisfied.

But I'm going to try and restrain myself from posting further because I'm just going to get mad. People don't truly understand the prison system and that's genuinely to blame the media for. At least here in California, it's not even moderately close to what people think.

testing 2

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xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:49
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It's true. I think when people are found guilty of a crime, they should be sentenced to an assisted living facility, and old people should be sent to prison.

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Indicium
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:52
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Quote: "I love when people post things like this... It shows their ignorance of the prison system."


I'm not ignorant of the prison system, I'm aware how messed up it is. But that's what I think should happen to him.

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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:59
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@Doomster - I don't understand why you quoted me with a face after? Please explain. It's much better for the victims to see the murderer face charges, then get the death penalty (if applicable), rather than just straight up shoot himself. Shooting ones self if the easy way out and he will not feel like he's punished in the slightest.


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Design Runner
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 21:59
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Quote: "Well, if it's anything like the U.S.A. he's not gonna get the worst food in his life or a tiny room with a bed and toilet. He's going to get a modern prison with decent food, heat, AC, recess, socialization, TV, internet, movies, and whatever else."

Its really funny, because prisoners in jail get better food than school's do. +1 for Obama

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:08
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Quote: " better food than school's do."


I can vouch for that.

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KeithC
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:09 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2011 22:25
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Working in an actual prison for over 3 years now, as a Corrections Officer; I can tell you with certainty that it is definitely NOT the hell on earth some people think it is. Those that are against the death penalty did not (from what I've read and seen over the years) have a family member or friend who was slaughtered by a cold-blooded murderer. The argument that we shouldn't do it, because we'll be "just like them" is also weak. Killing people happens all the time in Wars (which isn't an invitation to a debate about Iraq/Afghanistan/etc....so don't start one) we are in. Does that make our soldiers "just like them"? I don't think so.

Bottom line is, that murderer has not only taken numerous lives; but now he will take from society again, in the form of taxpayer dollars. An average prisoner in Michigan costs around 34-36 thousand dollars a year; to keep housed. Then there are their free healthcare costs added on as well; which goes up the older they get.

This "murderer" should be convicted; have a case study worked up on him, and be disposed of like the trash he is.

Quote: "Its really funny, because prisoners in jail get better food than school's do. +1 for Obama"


That has nothing to do with Obama; the prisons are primarily State run (unless it was a federal offense). Keep your thinly veiled disgust for the President out of this.

-Keith

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Doomster
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:11 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2011 22:20
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@Jeku: I just kinda found it ironic that one is glad that the police's got a mass murderer alive, just to execute him later on. I understand where you're coming from, though, and also agree that it's cowardly of the suspect to leave the people without any answers, or facing legal charges.

Quote: "+1 for Obama"

I can't understand all the 'hatred' and negativity against him, he actually had some goos ideas already, that he just couldn't get through (or just not in the original state) because of the converatives, same thing with the whole government's debt stuff... it's more a problem of people that actually thought Obama's going to fix all problems up once he's voted with one snap... but since's it quite weird for a foreign guy to speak about the president of another country, I'll just stop now.

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:23
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Quote: "@Jeku: I just kinda found it ironic that one is glad that the police's got a mass murderer alive, just to execute him later on. I understand where you're coming from, though, and also agree that it's cowardly of the suspect to leave the people without any answers, or facing legal charges."

I agree with Jeku. It's better to execute him then find him dead, because he probably would have done some quick and easy way out of life, when he should suffer. And don't say I'm terrible for wanting him to suffer but he killed 80 people in Norway, that's tons of little bits of their friends and families lives too. And they were innocent people. There were children killed. He is a grown man, with sense in him, so decided to kill that many people. He deserves what's coming for him.

Quote: " Keep you thinly veiled disgust for the President out of this."


I know, I don't get why Obama is such a terrible president. He's made some mistakes, but I don't see a president who did everything right.

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Design Runner
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:30
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What I was trying to say was because of Obama Care, our school's food got worse. It wasn't meant top be really a bash on Obama, or bring in any political debate, just a joke. And that's the last off-topicness I'm going to bring into the thread.

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KeithC
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:38
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Again; you apparently do not understand the difference between State and Federal Governments, and the fact that we're in a recession. I've added a warning to your account; I suggest you heed your own advice, for the last time.

-Keith

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:39 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2011 22:40
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This is all I'm willing to say on the subject, school food is good. It has it's bad courses, but any place serving food does. Can you honestly go to a resturant, order anything and be satisfied with what you had? SO while my school has sucky mac and cheese, it's fries are to die for.

EDIT: And as for Obama, you got his birth certificate, you got Osama's death certificate, what else do you want?

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crispex
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:40
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Quote: "It seems a bit sick that the taxpayers, especially of the 87 affected families of Norway will have to pay for him to sit in prison for the rest of his life."


Fact: It costs more to have someone executed than it does to keep them alive in prison.

I think he should sit and suffer. Prison appears to be a nice easy place to be, but nobody here seems to understand that you're in prison with other criminals that are just as, if not more, dangerous than you are. I hate to get into a debate, but you can't convince me that the death penalty is "justice" because it's not. I know I would rather die than be sentenced to life.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
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KeithC
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:41
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Quote: "Fact: It costs more to have someone executed than it does to keep them alive in prison."


As usual; I'm going to ask where you got this "fact" from?

-Keith

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 22:57 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2011 23:04
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Probably the average is very skewed because people sit on death row, sometimes, for 20+ years. It should not take that long if someone is convicted guilty.

And regardless of cost, I'd rather that money go to eliminating that scum from society completely than keeping them alive and more comfortable than our perfectly legitimate, hard-working, poverty stricken citizens. That is what disturbs me most.

They should make prisoners earn their room and board in jail by doing state construction jobs like building schools, libraries, government offices, and fixing roads to keep down the city's cost of upkeep. I think it would allow more funding for expansion and job creation.

http://lossofanonymity.wordpress.com
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xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 23:00 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2011 23:07
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Quote: "As usual; I'm going to ask where you got this "fact" from?"


Me too. Please don't just repeat things you hear. Do a little research. This guy is young and will probably be in prison for 40+ years @ 60,000.00/year.

Granted, the cost of a death penalty case is typically higher than that of a non-death penalty case, but when the offender is in his twenties, keeping him is much more expensive.

Brian.

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heyufool1
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 23:02
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Quote: "[quote]As usual; I'm going to ask where you got this "fact" from?"

As usual; I'm going to ask where you got this "fact" from?[/quote]

I heard this somewhere too, not sure where though...

"So hold your head up high and know. It's not the end of the road"
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 23:05
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in russia we had a lot of terrorist attacks so i sympathise with Oslo. the attacks there kindof remind me of th oklahoma bombing.

what was the reason behind the attack anyway?

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 23:15
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KeithC

You should be ashamed of yourself for saying inflammatory things like this:

Quote: "Those that are against the death penalty did not (from what I've read and seen over the years) have a family member or friend who was slaughtered by a cold-blooded murderer."


I have had two friends killed that way and neither I nor the victims parents support the death penalty.

Stick to facts and you'll do fine.

As others have said, the events such as those in Norway and elsewhere are a sad reflection of the state of mind of small numbers of individuals. Death penalties just repeat the crime.
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Cormorant5
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 23:21
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Quote: "Death penalties just repeat the crime."


So killing someone who has has killed 90 people is a crime now? What world are we living in?

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KeithC
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 23:27
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Quote: "You should be ashamed of yourself for saying inflammatory things like this:"


Nope; not ashamed at all. I'm around murderers all day long; I read there files, hear them talk about their crimes and how they'd do it again if the had the chance. Many of them have no remorse whatsoever. I don't live in a fantasy world as some do.

-Keith

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xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 23:31
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Consider the cost of doing away with the death penalty. Go ahead, rape and kill, but if you do we'll provide all your basic needs - and more - for the rest of your life.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 23:47
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The words "FlameBait" might actually be in bad taste here.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 00:02 Edited at: 24th Jul 2011 00:03
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Its far too easy to come in to a thread and accuse people of not knowing what they are talking about, or that an opinion they hold is wrong.
What works in someone's country or state, doesn't mean it will work in another person's country.

Lets get back on topic, after all, this is about a horrible event that has occurred, lets not slip into talk about how the guilty should be punished.
My thoughts go out to all those who have been affected in this terrible event.

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Quik
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 00:20
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went and saw lisa miskovsky live this evening, we had a silent moment for them..

since its so very closeby its easy to feel scared and sadness too

and for the record, I am a man.

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Vent
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 00:29
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My condolences to everyone affected by this.

If anyone needs me, I'll be here, trying to make myself feel happy again.



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tha_rami
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 00:37 Edited at: 24th Jul 2011 00:38
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Quote: "I just annoys me how the media automatically assumes from the start that it was Islamic extremists."

Quote: "If you add up all the terrorist events from the past 50 years, the odds are for rather than against."

Jeku, I'm not certain what you're saying here. Could you please clarify what you're trying to say, because it's sort of ambiguous.?

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
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Plystire
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 00:46
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I won't jump into the debate about punishment that should be served. Not like my opinion on it will make a difference on the matter.

It's always a sad day when things like this come to pass. My thoughts are with those that have been effected, and I hope they find the strength to make their way through these difficult times.

Quote: " but since's it quite weird for a foreign guy to speak about the president of another country, I'll just stop now."


Weird, perhaps, but I found that sometimes it's easier to see things for the way they really are when you're looking in from the outside. Many times, the things right in front of your face are the hardest to see.


~Plystire

A rose is only a rose until it is held and cherished -- then it becomes a treasure.
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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 01:00 Edited at: 24th Jul 2011 02:21
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Quote: "Fact: It costs more to have someone executed than it does to keep them alive in prison."

Do you know why? I do... It's called appeals. The actual death penalty itself cost little to nothing. It's the idiots that allow these prisoners to make an appeal after appeal after appeal after appeal. That's why it "costs more" for the death penalty. If the death penalty was used the way it should be, it would save literally millions of dollars of tax payers' money. But then again... people wouldn't know that because of the media. They simply state that the death penalty is more expensive to further add to people's ignorance of the prison system..

Quote: "Working in an actual prison for over 3 years now, as a Corrections Officer; I can tell you with certainty that it is definitely NOT the hell on earth some people think it is. Those that are against the death penalty did not (from what I've read and seen over the years) have a family member or friend who was slaughtered by a cold-blooded murderer. The argument that we shouldn't do it, because we'll be "just like them" is also weak. Killing people happens all the time in Wars (which isn't an invitation to a debate about Iraq/Afghanistan/etc....so don't start one) we are in. Does that make our soldiers "just like them"? I don't think so.

Bottom line is, that murderer has not only taken numerous lives; but now he will take from society again, in the form of taxpayer dollars. An average prisoner in Michigan costs around 34-36 thousand dollars a year; to keep housed. Then there are their free healthcare costs added on as well; which goes up the older they get.

This "murderer" should be convicted; have a case study worked up on him, and be disposed of like the trash he is."

Thank God someone else has some sense. I couldn't agree more. My Father has been in Corrections in California for almost 23 years now. Nothing gets me more irritated than when I see complete and utter ignorance of the prison system.

There is a biography movie that just came out (I can't for the life of me remember what it's called or what the guy's name is) but it's about a UFC fighter who went to prison for 7 years for beatin' the hell out of some guy. It shows what prison actually does to people. I wish I could find a link. It would enlighten some people on what actually goes on in a prison and how it changes people.

[on topic] Just saw on the news that the death toll in Norway is up to 92 people. Just sickens me what some people do, it really truly is just sickening.

[edit] Alright I'm retarded... How to I make my little banner image a link? lol.


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Quik
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 01:22
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I personally still think you cannot justify murder with "murder", but hey thats me! also since when did money become more worth than a life?
oh wait, society is like it is

and for the record, I am a man.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 02:12 Edited at: 24th Jul 2011 02:21
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Saw the news this morning, it's horrible. That worst part is that there's really nothing anybody could do to prevent it. There was no reason to have security measures in place to stop something like this because it's something no one would imagine would ever happen.

I don't understand how anyone could have such extreme views that they would want to kill 92 innocent people, mostly teenagers and children. It really infuriates me, because there is nothing that can be done about preventing events like this short of having armed police at every event with more than a few people. And even though he's been captured, there's nothing that can be done to make anything better. Torturing him would be fitting, but would solve absolutely nothing, as would the death penalty or a life sentence.

Quote: "Jeku, I'm not certain what you're saying here. Could you please clarify what you're trying to say, because it's sort of ambiguous.?"

I think what he is trying to say is most religiously motivated terrorist attacks in the last 50 years have been committed by Islamic extremists. This is not true though, if that's what he's trying to say, they have just been the one's covered most by the media (because they have been the one's that usually cause the most casualties and so are high profile).

Here's an FBI breakdown of recent terrorist attacks:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

As far as high profile attacks that were meant to inspire fear and indiscriminately kill many people, it might be true that Islamic extremists would be responsible for more of those (meaning the most deaths) in recent years, judging by the list of terrorist attacks by death count. Most of those have been committed by Islamic extremists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_and_other_violent_events_by_death_toll#Terrorist_attacks


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