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Geek Culture / Debt free money anyone?

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Matty H
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:06 Edited at: 26th Sep 2011 16:35
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Things are pretty bad right now pretty much everywhere I think we can agree? I am talking about the economy, shares, housing crash etc.

But are you aware that there may be one underlying cause that none of the mainstream media or politicians ever seem to mention. Here it is:

Banks create money out of nothing when they make loans!!!

This is possible because of the fractional reserve system that is in place all around the world. the net result of this system means that for every £100 you deposit the banks can lend out £1000 worth of loans. That is with a fractional reserve of 10%, often the reserves are even lower.

97% of the money supply is debt based digital money that the banks create and then profit off the interest. Equally, when a loan is repayed 'money' is destroyed, if the banks stop lending then the money supply shrinks as people pay back their loans or default.

This is why the governments always talk about getting the banks lending again, they should talk about getting the banks 'creating money' again, but they don't say that.

It does not have to be like this, money can and should be debt free, but not enough people are aware of how money is created.

You can find lots of information about this on the net.

EDIT:
[Removed link]
I did not know we could not talk about politics, sorry if I am in violation of the AUP. Maybe we can talk about fractional reserve banking, is banking politics? probably


Quick explanation:


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:23
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hijacked account?

or a dark imposter!?



http://lossofanonymity.wordpress.com
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lazerus
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:23 Edited at: 24th Sep 2011 19:25
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I see your issue and counter with Greed.

Also seems wierd for a spambot, checked a few phrases but i think its just the matter of fact way he's rit' it


http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:28
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Quote: "Things are pretty bad right now pretty much everywhere I think we can agree? I am talking about the economy, shares, housing crash etc.

But are you aware that there may be one underlying cause that none of the mainstream media or politicians ever seem to mention. Here it is:

Banks create money out of nothing when they make loans!!!

This is possible because of the fractional reserve system that is in place all around the world. the net result of this system means that for every £100 you deposit the banks can lend out £1000 worth of loans. That is with a fractional reserve of 10%, often the reserves are even lower.

97% of the money supply is debt based digital money that the banks create and then profit off the interest. Equally, when a loan is repayed 'money' is destroyed, if the banks stop lending then the money supply shrinks as people pay back their loans or default.

This is why the governments always talk about getting the banks lending again, they should talk about getting the banks 'creating money' again, but they don't say that.

It does not have to be like this, money can and should be debt free, but not enough people are aware of how money is created."


Unfortunately you're completely wrong.


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Matty H
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:33
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Should I remove the link? Is that why people think its spam?

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xplosys
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:34
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Quote: "Unfortunately you're completely wrong."


Yeah, pretty much. If you're a spambot, you're not a very informed one.

Brian.

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Wolf
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:38 Edited at: 24th Sep 2011 19:39
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Quote: "Should I remove the link? Is that why people think its spam?"


That would be a good start...and while you are at it, please remove the rest of the post aswell.

The AUP forbids political talk...and this is as political as it can get. I doubt that the current financial system will be around much longer, so dont worry about it.

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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Matty H
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:40
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Quote: "Unfortunately you're completely wrong."


Surly I'm not completely wrong? Could you perhaps tell me which part is wrong.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 19:46
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The problem isn't with loans. The problem is banks making loans that they know they can't get back and then reselling them off or waiting for a government to bail them out.


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Matty H
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 20:03
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Quote: "The problem isn't with loans. The problem is banks making loans that they know they can't get back and then reselling them off or waiting for a government to bail them out."


Ah ok, so we don't agree that banks creating money was the problem, thats fair enough. But what I said about money creation etc is completely true.


Quote: "I see your issue and counter with Greed. "

The housing boom was fuelled by money creation, these guys made enough money to not worry about the side effects.

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xplosys
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 20:06
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Quote: "The housing boom was fuelled by money creation"


Yeah, sorry. Wrong again. The banks certainly profited from the housing boom and then took advantage of the crisis by selling the bad loans, but they weren't the ones who made it mandatory to loan money to people who obviously couldn't pay it back.

Brian.

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Matty H
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 20:35 Edited at: 24th Sep 2011 20:42
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Quote: "but they weren't the ones who made it mandatory to loan money to people who obviously couldn't pay it back."


Whats the problem if people can't pay back the loans? The bank takes the house, they should be covered for such events.

The fact that the houses are not worth anywhere near what they were selling for means that when people default then the banks are left with something worth alot less than they paid.

So the problem comes back to over inflated prices.

Houses rise;
high confidence;
while(confidence is high)
-Houses rise;
-People need larger mortgages and speculators borrow money to profit from the boom;
-more money is created;
loop
crash

The first house rise can be for legitimate economic reasons, the rest is speculation fuelled by greed and money creation. You get lots of people chasing an asset then that asset goes up in price, the more money available then the more it goes up, people started buying as many houses as they could from the false equity they thought they had in their first house

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xplosys
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 23:32
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Quote: "Whats the problem if people can't pay back the loans? The bank takes the house, they should be covered for such events."


That's a good theory, and normally would have worked. The sheer numbers, federal imposed restrictions, time involved and costs to assume and resell were overwhelming.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this with one last thought. Banks doing business the way they have for many years is not the "underlying cause" of our current economic situation.

Brian.

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Matty H
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 00:30
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Quote: "Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this with one last thought. Banks doing business the way they have for many years is not the "underlying cause" of our current economic situation."


OK, thanks for your input, I hope you come across this subject again in the future because I believe you may change your mind.

Just looking at where you are from you might find it interesting to know that your country has struggled with this issue for hundreds of years, having a debt free monetry system on a number of occasions.

Some info here:


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BiggAdd
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 00:53 Edited at: 25th Sep 2011 01:09
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I hate all this liberal bull crap (No offence) that tries to convince people that the debt they currently hold is not their fault.

Of course the debt is their fault, the problem with recession was not caused by the banks, it was caused by the people taking out low cost loans "at their convenience" to live beyond their own means.
Granted, banks offered these services which you could blame them for, but would you blame the cigarette companies for people smoking? No.. People are the cause, not the banks and corporations.

Did you not notice all those adverts on TV before the economy crumbled, all that short term low cost loans (With an APR above 3000%), that was the state of the economy before the collapse, too many people wanted a load of shiny stuff they couldn't afford.
Too many people just maxed out their credit, its not the banks fault. It winds me up when people try and pass on the blame.

(Obviously I'm not denying there are special cases where you might need a loan from a bank you might not be sure you could pay back)


On the subject on how loans are created, I'm pretty sure its not created out of nothing, I'm pretty sure banks "borrow" money from other economies at a lower interest rate so they can give you your loans. This is why so many countries are in debt to each other (Which is also why China pretty much owns the USA and Europe).

Thats why when we say, the UK is trillions of pounds in debt, its not just to ourselves, its money we've borrowed from other countries.

/rant

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 04:42
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Quote: "This is why the governments always talk about getting the banks lending again, they should talk about getting the banks 'creating money' again, but they don't say that."


Lending money is the grease of all business. When you loan money from a financial institution, they in turn borrow that money from other financial institutions.

Bubbles are created when institutions loan more money than the assets are worth. The housing market is good example of this. So if the purchaser defaults, then financial institution sells the assets to service their 3rd party debt. But when assets are overvalued, the lender can't get it's money back, creating the domino effect.

If there's enough defaults that lender can't service it's debt, then lenders risk defaulting. If the size of the institution is big enough, then government are forced to borrow money from 3rd party to prop the institution up. If governments borrow too much, then they risk defaulting and so on.

Eventually, whoever you loan the $$ from, wants their money back at some point.


Hmm, I wonder what's coming in 2011?
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Satchmo
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 05:37
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Quote: "(Which is also why China pretty much owns the USA and Europe)"


Nope. Wrong. China owns 9% of the U.S. debt, a debt that is held in guess what? U.S. Dollars, which are whatever the fed and the U.S. government says they are. Not exactly "owning" the country.

What put us into this situation was a combination of De-Regulation, people spending money they didn't have and banks giving out loans they shouldn't have. Most of the blame should be put on the republican part y and the greedy banks who fought for de regulation.

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Rampage
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 08:44
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Quote: "pretty much everywhere"

Been to Australia lately?

Regards,

Max
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jrowe
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 12:16
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That's not what a fractional reserve means... a fractional reserve means that if you invest £100, the bank holds a fraction (say 10% or £10) and lends/invests the rest (90% or £90). Because the interest rates on a loan are higher than the interest rates on your account, the bank can make a profit in the long term.

The large pot of capital the banks lend and invest is how used by businesses to expand and so essential to the economy.

What you seem to be confused about is the influence of the state bank (eg. Federal reserve, Bank of England, European Central bank) who create the money. These institutions are NOT commercial institutions or the same thing as 'the banks'; they are tasked with ensuring the smooth running of the economy.

THESE institutions create money electronically and lend it out to banks, at a quite a low rate of interest. The banks then hold a fraction of this, and lend/invest the rest. This money creation is essential for our economic model, as we no longer rely on a guaranteed system like the gold standard.

After 9/11 to stabilise the stock market turmoil the US and other nations lowered the interest rates of borrowing from the Federal Reserve/Bank of England/whoever, to give banks lots of cheap capital to invest and so keep the economy growing. Because they made it so cheap for banks to borrow, banks could loan money to people everybody, without being as stringent over their likelihood of paying it back. When the markets realised that so many people have/will default on their debts they realised the banks aren't worth as much as they thought and we got a recession.

Incidentally, with low interest rates, normally inflation (the cost of living) increases dramatically, but it didn't because we shifted the manufacture of goods to China/India. This flow of capital out of the west has been what's turned them into new economic superpowers.

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Matty H
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 12:26
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Quote: "Of course the debt is their fault, the problem with recession was not caused by the banks, it was caused by the people taking out low cost loans "at their convenience" to live beyond their own means."


If trying to own your own house to the benefit of your family and children is living beyond your means then there really is something wrong.

Although what you say is true when it comes to other types of loans, I used to get letters off the bank nearly every month trying to get me to lend a guarenteed £15000, I must admit I thought about it a few times. But looking at my finaces there was no way they should have been offering me these loans.

Quote: "On the subject on how loans are created, I'm pretty sure its not created out of nothing, I'm pretty sure banks "borrow" money from other economies at a lower interest rate so they can give you your loans."


I'm glad you said that because this is exactly how most people think it works but I assure you it does not. Banks do create money out of nothing, just the agreement that you will pay it back is enough to create brand new money, they just type it into a computer and there it is.

Check out the 'positive money' website, they have a few 3-5 minute videos that explain the process.


Quote: "Lending money is the grease of all business. When you loan money from a financial institution, they in turn borrow that money from other financial institutions. "


What you say can be true but as I explained above its mostly not. My quote is correct, the politicians should talk about ctreating money but it's something they don't say, its like the money creation/destruction process is a taboo subject or something


Quote: "Been to Australia lately?"


No, but Australia also has a housing bubble, but I have heard that they are not in as much trouble due to there exposure to safer Asian markets. I am not really an expert on markets or anything it's just something I hear around the interweb

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Matty H
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 12:35
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Quote: "That's not what a fractional reserve means... a fractional reserve means that if you invest £100, the bank holds a fraction (say 10% or £10) and lends/invests the rest (90% or £90). Because the interest rates on a loan are higher than the interest rates on your account, the bank can make a profit in the long term."


Yes that is correct, but the net effect is very different.

If I deposit £100 the bank can lend £90 and keep a reserve of £10, but the person who lends the £90 then deposits it in their bank and they do exactly the same.

The second bank takes the £90 and keeps £9 in reserve and lends out £81. This repeats until the original £100 becomes £1000.

Quote: "What you seem to be confused about is the influence of the state bank (eg. Federal reserve, Bank of England, European Central bank) who create the money"


They are responsible for creating the physical money we use day to day, its around 3% of the money supply in the UK, less in the US.

97% of money is created by the banks when they issue loans, this is digital money and its mostly the reason we can't all go the bank to get our money at the same time, because its not there

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Wolf
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 12:39
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Quote: "No.. People are the cause, not the banks and corporations.
"


This again is not completely true. Here I agree with your statement, but only partially. There are a lot of loopholes in the financial system that allowed a few people to make money out of literally nothing. Nonexistant companys where formed that never produced or contributed anything as a pipeline for money. My english fails me on this subject as I studied it in french but allow me to assure you that it is not Joe Average who brought this on us, but the system itself committed suicide. I've seen some reports about this and the sums that where mentioned there...the sheer amount of money A few lads maxing out their credit card is a joke against that. When I get back home later, I try to translate a few texts I have on the subject.

Quote: "Things are pretty bad right now pretty much everywhere I think we can agree? I am talking about the economy, shares, housing crash etc.
"


I agree...and it saddens me to see how quick we are to blame our current governments and tend to support political extremists

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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the_winch
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 17:16
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Quote: "If I deposit £100 the bank can lend £90 and keep a reserve of £10, but the person who lends the £90 then deposits it in their bank and they do exactly the same.

The second bank takes the £90 and keeps £9 in reserve and lends out £81. This repeats until the original £100 becomes £1000."


I think you need to apply some critical thinking to this.

First, borrowing money costs money. People take out loans because they have a use for the money. Who on earth takes out a loan and leaves the money sitting in the bank account?

Second, the £100 does not become £1000. Even if we pretend in this bizarre situation where a whole chain of people take out loans for fun and leave the money sitting in a bank account.

There is only one £100. Instead of the full £100 sitting in a bank vault £90 of it is circulating in the economy. This additional £90 is now exactly the same as other money circulating in the economy. Sure someone could pay it into a bank and the bank could lend £81 of it. However nobody has created any money, it's just on the books of more than one bank. There is still just £100 in total.

It's like arguing a £1 coin can become £1,000,000 because people can give each other money. I give the coin to someone who spends it in a shop, the shopkeeper then gives it to someone else who then spends it and so on until it has "become" £1,000,000.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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Matty H
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 17:53
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Quote: "Nonexistant companys where formed that never produced or contributed anything as a pipeline for money"


I am currently disillusioned with the whole finacial sector, money should serve one function, a means of exchange for real goods and services. Making money by manipulating the process does not contribute anything to the real economy and the rules get so complex that anything becomes possible, including the things you described.

Quote: "Who on earth takes out a loan and leaves the money sitting in the bank account?"


The process I describe is not my opinion, it is a fact, this is how money is created.

The whole point is that when people loan money they then buy a house or a car with that money. The person who sold the car then puts the money in their bank, if they did not, then the money creation would stop there. But they do and then their bank can lend 90% of that money and the process starts again.

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Quel
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 18:05 Edited at: 25th Sep 2011 18:06
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I had the energy to read halfway through the whole topic, and noticed a bit of change of the subject from "banks printing money out of nowhere" to "whose fault is this recession?"

Of course people are stupid to take loans. Loans are for businesses to start off, not for "stuff" that won't ever bring you money. Period.

But after declaring this like gentlemen, LET'S JUST NOT F-IN FORGET THAT THE WORLD BANK IS PRINTING MONEY OUT OF NOWHERE AS LOANS FOR WHOLE COUNTRIES.

...aaaand... waiting for real money in return.


(nobody really thinks that billions of Euros - usually given as loans to "help out countries" - actually exist somewhere alright?)


And what about the fact that EVERY country owes gigantic amounts of money - amounts that have never existed and never will - to SOMEONE, but NOBODY tells you WHO IS THAT GROUP OR PERSON?

Well actually i have a guess for the guy's nationality. Be offended at your own risk, i didn't say it. (interesting that all of us think the same?)

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 18:11
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Quote: "Most of the blame should be put on the republican part y and the greedy banks who fought for de regulation."

I always laugh when I read stuff like this. Even though I'm republican, I'd laugh if someone put the entire blame on the left wing.

It's not true either way. I think it's quite safe to say, the blame can be put a little everywhere.

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the_winch
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 19:33 Edited at: 25th Sep 2011 19:34
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Quote: "The process I describe is not my opinion, it is a fact, this is how money is created.

The whole point is that when people loan money they then buy a house or a car with that money. The person who sold the car then puts the money in their bank, if they did not, then the money creation would stop there. But they do and then their bank can lend 90% of that money and the process starts again.
"


Fractional reserve banking can create money.

The previous sentence is true but it is only true if you give the words very specific definitions. In particular the meaning of create.

What you are doing is accepting the statement is true, then changing the definition of create and still insisting the statement is true. The difference is subtle but blindingly obvious if you actually look at the process of fractional reserve banking itself not the words used to describe the process.

Money is created because money that would otherwise be locked in a bank vault can be loaned out. The money is now circulating in the economy instead of sitting in the vault.
What you can't do is interpret created differently and start arguing new money has been created out of thin air. That's a different meaning of created that does not apply to fractional reserve banking.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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Matty H
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 20:47 Edited at: 25th Sep 2011 20:50
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@the_winch

I understand that what I am saying is hard to believe but I am not playing with definitions

Here is president Obama describing the process(watch from 13:53 onwards):

Obama "banks create money"

Quote: "[A]lthough there are a lot of Americans who understandably think that government money would be better spent going directly to families and businesses instead of banks – ‘where’s our bailout?,’ they ask – the truth is that a dollar of capital in a bank can actually result in eight or ten dollars of loans to families and businesses, a multiplier effect that can ultimately lead to a faster pace of economic growth."
(Find the original transcript on the New York Times site.)

Or plain English:

Quote: "If we give one dollar to you, we’ve created one dollar. But if we give one dollar to the banks, they’ll lend it over and over again until there are eight or ten dollars of loans to families and businesses. "


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Wolf
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 20:48 Edited at: 28th Sep 2011 15:51
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Quote: "I always laugh when I read stuff like this. Even though I'm republican, I'd laugh if someone put the entire blame on the left wing."


2 puppets...one puppeteer (if you dont believe it...take it as a joke)
...I agree with your point of view, Rambo..even though I have left-winged political points of view. I do understand and respect the opinion of peoples who tend to go rightwing. (And I feat I'm alone with this judging on the depressing youtube comments on politics.) I do only have problems with extremists (on both sides)

Quote: "
It's not true either way. I think it's quite safe to say, the blame can be put a little everywhere."


Like I sayd before. I don't really blame any countrys or governments, it all origins from big companys and rich civilians which are making money out of money. Remember that money that is won out of nothing has to lag somewhere. Usually average joe and the third world has to suffer...until the entire system crashes and we are all within the same boat again. (it almost happened, no one can deny that)

Quote: "(nobody really thinks that billions of Euros - usually given as loans to "help out countries" - actually exist somewhere alright?)"


That depends on how you would describe money. After all, a 20 Dollar Bill is more or less only a "Certification" that you own 20 dollar and give it in exchange for [insert good here]. Money does not need to be printed on bills to exist. (I'm no expert on this, after all, I was quitting the job )

Remember when the euro has been introduced and they burned huge piles of the old money. ...yeah. Everyone can interprete these images in their own way.

Quote: "money should serve one function, a means of exchange for real goods and services."


Old fashioned, but my exact point of view!

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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Diggsey
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 21:48 Edited at: 25th Sep 2011 21:50
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There are lot's of things which have combined to cause the problem:
1) People's mentality is to buy more than they can afford. Credit cards and loans allow people to buy first and earn later, resulting in the majority of people living on the edge of going bankrupt. Sure, it's great for them when everything's going fine, but as soon as something unexpected happens, they have no security and end up defaulting on loans and failing to pay bills, causing the problems to escalate.

2) Banks and credit card companies keep giving out loans and credit cards with inadequate security. To be fair, they're not exactly helped by half the time being blamed for everything and the other half being told to lend out more by the government, who seem to think that loans magically create money (which they don't, Matty H).

3) Advertising companies constantly telling people to buy things they don't need and can't afford. Things like contract phones and cars where you pay for them over a number of years just hide the real cost and mean you can end up still paying for something even after you can no longer use it.

4) The euro was doomed from the start. A common currency only works when all the countries have similar economies. Countries like Greece could manage fine before the euro because the government could set different interest rates from the rest of the EU. With the euro they could no longer do that and so it was just a matter of time before it collapsed.

There are loads more reasons but these are just a few off the top of my head.

[b]
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the_winch
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Posted: 25th Sep 2011 22:19
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Quote: "I understand that what I am saying is hard to believe but I am not playing with definitions

Here is president Obama describing the process(watch from 13:53 onwards):"


Obama is talking about the government loaning banks money cheaply. Banks will then loan the money to lots of different people before paying it back to the government. The loans the banks make will of course occur one after the other not all at the same time! The bank of course does not borrow $1 from the government and lend it to 8 people all at the same time!

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 26th Sep 2011 04:41
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Quote: "...I agree with your point of view, Rambo..even though I have left-winged political points of view. I do understand and respect the opinion of peoples who tend to go rightwing. (And I feat I'm alone with this judging on the depressing youtube comments on politics.) I do only have problems with extremists (on both sides, even though you have to admit that there are more on the right than on the left at the moment. Not only in america.)"

Unusual to have two opposite ends agree haha But yes, it's the extremes that bother me as well. Though I don't necessarily agree there are more on the right. I would more-so say that it's just the ones on the right, are far more on the right than the ones on the left lol.
However, I could be entirely wrong. I really have no interest in politics. As long as I can keep my guns, I don't care what's going on

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Sep 2011 11:30
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Quote: "The problem isn't with loans. The problem is banks making loans that they know they can't get back and then reselling them off or waiting for a government to bail them out."


Interesting example:

Friend and I walk into Lloyd's TSB, friend wants to extend his overdraft limit because he's struggling for money, we paid the same rent over the previous 2 years (and with the same overdraft limit), but he struggled more than I did. The person takes his card, wonders off and returns a few minutes later and says, "we've done that for you."

I walk into HSBC to extend my overdraft limit because the student loans company had buggered up and I figured the extra cash would help. They sat me down in a booth, went through my details and found I had a great credit rating, however, their system wouldn't let me extend my overdraft. So we had to do a budget review of my account and found that my account was not generating enough turnover for them to be sure that I can get my money out of the minus numbers. They said I could come back and try again if I cut my budget down more to increase my turnover.

I actually walked away thinking, "wow, that was sensible banking". Essentially they weren't going to give money they weren't sure they'd get back.

And I think to a certain extend there is responsibility with a bank, unfortunately people get desperate or completely misjudge whether or not they can pay money back and sure, they're the ones getting themselves into debt, borrowing money they can't afford to pay back, but if they're not paying money back, then the bank is short of money and if they can't be confident that somebody is going to pay them back, it would do themselves some good to not lend, but also it'll do good for those who bail them out.

It seems my bank already does this, though I'm not sure if this is as a result of the current economic situation or not. It seems like a good system too (or at least in principle), if a person isn't generating enough money to pay them back, then how are they going to pay them back?

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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Sep 2011 13:27 Edited at: 26th Sep 2011 13:32
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Banks often have no scoobydoo what's going on anyway. They use different credit agencies, on which you can have different credit scores, and with some internet searches, you can target the bank which is most likely to lend you money. So really, not only do banks sometimes make silly decisions, sometimes they make sensible decisions with the wrong information.

Banks have now fallen into my "I have no faith" list, along with other entities such as GPs, in which the common man puts a lot of faith, not realising they're actually a bunch of plebs.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Sep 2011 14:07 Edited at: 26th Sep 2011 14:09
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Politicians, Journalists and Bankers fall on my 'I have no faith' list. As for GPs, I'd argue there's a lot of plebs in the medical profession, I mean obviously they're going to make mistakes and medicine isn't an exact science, but just sit and listen to care workers (such as a couple of my relatives) and you hear how bad they can be. Then again my local hospital is...how should I put it? A bit crap. I think if I was diagnosed, I'd seek multiple opinions, if I needed treatment, I wouldn't trust my local NHS, I'd either request a different hospital (like Addenbrookes) or go private.

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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Sep 2011 15:48
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Quote: " I think if I was diagnosed, I'd seek multiple opinions"


Definitely. GPs/people in the medical profession are far from infallible. They're all human. Some are great, some are rubbish, some make mistakes and some really do not care. I've been to the doctor after doing 5 minutes of online research for minor medical conditions, only to hear them contradict everything I've read (from multiple credible sources). And I have relative who have been given different treatments for the same condition depending on which borough they're in. One is a 'fob off' treatment that means less time in the office, more drugs, and usually many bad side affects. The other actually makes the person better.

The moral is, do not take their words as fact. For every caring knowledgeable doctor there is a decidedly average pleb of a doctor, who's expertise on most complaints can be trumped with 5 minutes research on the internet.

Anyway, must not rant about GPs! Rant done!

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Matty H
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Posted: 26th Sep 2011 16:33
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Quote: "lend out more by the government, who seem to think that loans magically create money (which they don't, Matty H)."


Quote: "Obama is talking about the government loaning banks money cheaply."


The fact that banks do create money is not even debated amongst economists. I can't really do much more to convince you, if you are interested then there is plenty of information on the subject if you look for it.



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Sep 2011 17:54 Edited at: 26th Sep 2011 17:56
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Quote: "They're all human."


I think this is important about anything in any profession, people tend to expect people to be perfect in select professions, yet it's an impossibility, every human can possess any of the flaws that come with being human, even the really despicable ones. And that applies to banks and bankers (to bring this back on topic), naturally we place trust in our banks and even our governments, yet all are bound by flaws and if they weren't...well we wouldn't be in this mess.

[Edit]
My post was getting too politicial, even if it wasn't siding with any particular political party or wing.

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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 11:03
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Quote: "If trying to own your own house to the benefit of your family and children is living beyond your means then there really is something wrong."


Um, if you can't afford the house, then YES IT DEFINITELY IS living beyond your means. You know the definition of the phrase, don't you?

Quote: "on both sides, even though you have to admit that there are more on the right than on the left at the moment."


The housing crisis began during the Clinton administration. And if you want to turn this into a left vs. right musling then prepare to get the thread locked.


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xplosys
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 15:36
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Quote: "Um, if you can't afford the house, then YES IT DEFINITELY IS living beyond your means."


Unless you believe that everyone is entitled to a house, even if someone else has to pay for it. Of course, that type of entitlement thinking is what got us into this situation to begin with.

Brian.

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Wolf
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 15:50
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Quote: "
The housing crisis began during the Clinton administration. And if you want to turn this into a left vs. right musling then prepare to get the thread locked."


No, the goal of my post was the exact oposite. I'll remove the line if its inconvenient.

Quote: "Unless you believe that everyone is entitled to a house"


Is that a common believe? Most people live in flats/small appartments to begin with. I would say that no one should have to live on the streets. Especially in wintertimes. However, I might be wrong, but I think there are already enough homeless shelters? (if not, build them on golf courses!!)

Quote: "I really have no interest in politics. As long as I can keep my guns, I don't care what's going on "


haha! I can understand that mate as soon as I have a solid income, I get a license myself.



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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Matty H
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 16:58
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Quote: "Um, if you can't afford the house, then YES IT DEFINITELY IS living beyond your means"


You are missing my point, houses were/are at over inflated prices.

This bubble made a lot of people very wealthy and the first time buyer is paying the price I'm afraid.

The fact in this country is that you are forced to pay an over inflated price if you want your own house for you and your family.

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Fallout
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 17:57
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Quote: "The fact in this country is that you are forced to pay an over inflated price if you want your own house for you and your family."


You're not forced to own your own home though, and it isn't necessary. It's a cultural mindset which many european countries do not share. Also, it depends where you buy. You can get 4 times the house for your money in Scotland than you can down south, and over 10 times when you compare rural Scotland to London. The whole "I want to live here, and I should only have to pay X" point of view is unrealistic. If there is demand, the price will be high.

If either (a) banks stopped handing out mortgages, or (b) people stopped buying because of the price, house prices would continue to fall. Current home owners cannot remain stubborn forever if they want to move. It's our culture of "I MUST OWN MY OWN HOME, OTHERWISE I HAVE NO FREEDOM AND HAVE FAILED!" that means people will sign up for 35 year debt just in order to say they own the bricks and mortar.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 18:08
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Quote: "(if not, build them on golf courses!!)"


Bloody good idea! All golf courses are useful for is scoring promotions and to be honest, a Wii is a lot cheaper and well, hard times should call for hard budgets, so your business's yearly golf budget should be reduced to accommodate the purchase of a Wii with Wii Sports, play Wii Golf with the boss, heck, if you've had a good month why not spoil your team and buy a new golf game. That way the golf courses can be given to the homeless and maybe even build a children's hospital on some of them.


I think we should go into politics together. If we're elected we will eradicate all golf courses by 2013 and to be honest, with 2012 being the end of the world I think we can pretty much guarantee our promises!

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Matty H
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 18:37
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@Fallout

What you say is all true and makes perfect sense, I have no problem with all that under normal circumstances.

I guess it comes down to whether you acknowledge the bubble which I argue was fuelled by money creation and speculation.

House prices are falling now, it's inevitable, if they fall back to what they should be compared to historical relationships between income and house prices then the banks are in even more trouble and people who bought at the height of the market are going to feel more let down, as they of course will be paying that price for the next 20 years or so if they do not want to default.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 20:08 Edited at: 28th Sep 2011 20:11
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Quote: "You are missing my point, houses were/are at over inflated prices."


There's no such thing as "over inflated prices". Prices are set by supply and demand, simple as that. The only way prices can be "over inflated" is if a single company has a monopoly (ie. has complete control over supply). Which is illegal.

[b]
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Benjamin
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 20:16 Edited at: 28th Sep 2011 20:16
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The whole debt thing... it doesn't help that banks not so long ago recommended getting a 100% mortgage. Sure it's the fault of the people for getting themselves in debt, but it doesn't help when those that lend money give bad advice.



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xplosys
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 20:18
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Quote: "The whole debt thing... it doesn't help that banks not so long ago recommended getting a 100% mortgage."


True, but whatever happened to personal responsibility. If someone offers free drugs, and you get hooked.... who's fault is it?

Brian.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 20:34 Edited at: 28th Sep 2011 20:34
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Quote: "If someone offers free drugs, and you get hooked.... who's fault is it?"


It's yours. But it doesn't help if someone offers you something really good... it's not really fair comparing drug dealers to bankers anyway. The latter are supposed to be more responsible.



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xplosys
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 20:41
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Just out of curiosity, and this is a going a little off the subject but feeling the way you do, do you think the government should step in and regulate how the banks make loans, or should it be up to the banks to make their own rules? If you feel the banks need to be regulated, does the same apply to other businesses as well and if so, and who gets to decide which businesses need to be regulated?

Brian.

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