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Geek Culture / the epic change (Installing new OS)

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Wolf
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 13:53
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I plan this winter as some sort of renaissance for my arts. Including the digital ones. So since my good old windows XP installation that is currently running almost 2 years without maintenance starts to screw around and is constantly mean to me I decided that its finally time to install a new OS.

Here are my thoughts:

Ubuntu: My father uses it and is quiet happy with it. For only one reason: he does not use windows and can rub everyones nose in it. However, the OS wowed me at first, but after using it a few days, I just hated it.
It would be my first choice if I would only use my computer to Mail and write documents, but other than that its terribly pretentious, the interface has most likely been designed by monkeys and the fact that most non-mainstream software has tons of loose codefiles that spam you appfolders to the max and requires setup/start and setting-up via the "terminal" (console... but they had to use another name for something that already has a name...it constantly does that).
I know that this Linux Platform is the wetdream of a lot of geeks but...being not a techgeek and having absolutely no interest in giving myself into the religion of linux...its not for me. Besides: most software I use doesnt appear to work with it.

Windows 7: Being the newest Windows system, it seems to be the most promising: Here are my concerns:

Will older windows XP software and TGC Products work on it? If yes, flawlessly?

Does it require a lot more performance and cause lag while playing games?
Or do I actually get better performance because the system is able to use my multicore syst...multicores.

Also: how stable and reliable is it compared to windows XP.

Windows Vista: I never liked the looks of it, but I'll get fancy with my desktop and layoutskin anyway so thats no problem. However, seeing this OS on Computers of friends/relatives: It usually produced at least 2 errormessages while I was watching so I wouldn't be thrilled to switch to it. I also heard a rumor that it only was some sort of "beta" for windows 7 (?) However, its out for a while so it might be stable at the moment?

Also: the same questions apply as for win7.

Or would you advice me to "hang in there" until they release windows 8?

Thanks for your time.



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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Oolite
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 14:47
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I've never had any problems with Windows 7 and compatibility, I have however struggled getting most things running in Ubuntu. I'm not a fan so i'd say shell out the cash for a copy of Windows 7.
I also almost never had any problems with Vista (unlike everyone else here it seems) but I wouldn't recommend getting it because it is outdated now and compatibility was a bit of pain.

Quote: "Does it require a lot more performance and cause lag while playing games?"

Not over here, actually manages it's memory quite well. A lot better than vista ever did.

Quote: "Also: how stable and reliable is it compared to windows XP."

I've ran with Windows 7 since release now and it has been fine for me. Even when i've been abusing it with mass amounts of processes i've never had it just quit out on me.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 14:49
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I'd say windows 7 or if you want to be ambitious get the windows 8 preview.

Windows 7 runs almost as fast as XP, maybe even faster on a dual core setup. Most things, if not all work. TGC products work, but don't stick em in program files unless you want problems.

It won't be win xp so it will not run everything or work how you like. However, it's infinately better in every way.

Vista is the crappier version of 7, so don't get vista.


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Ocho Geek
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 19:31
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Ubuntu is the closest thing to and everyday LINUX system, and with 11.10 coming out soon, It's a really good choice.
I think it's best for portable computers though, so you can get the most out of what might not be a particularly powerful system.

For a desktop, I'd say go for the OS's with the most program comparabilities (IE Windows vs mac), and since we're talking about OS's, not machines, then windows would be the logical way forward.

Windows 7 is actually more reliable than XP as a system (for the people I've had lengthy nerdy discussions with); and XP mode should eliminate most problems with compatibility.

so yeah, I vote Win7


Not Spanish, Not Eight, Just Ocho

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DJ Almix
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 20:24
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Windows 7.


I am not a fan of MLP , but that's just me
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 20:45
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Running Vista, no problems. but then, apparently I'm a bit of a rarity...

7 is definitely a Vista mark-two though, best to get that.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 20:51
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yeah win 7 is where it is at. My only complaint is older games dont work with it.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 00:23
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Windows 7 is awesome.

on the linux note: IMO, no flavor of linux should boot up directly into a GUI. The GUI is just a facade over the rest of the system to make it appear nicer. I don't know if you noticed this, but linux is one of the nicest OSes to develop on. On linux, usually the package manager will download and install libraries for you. If it doesn't, then you probably just have to download the stuff from the internet and issue the commands "configure" "make" and "make install".

Then, since everything is in /usr/lib and /usr/include, you don't have to mess around with directories and what not.

Since everything is local to your ~/ directory, it's really easy to create preferences and stuff specific to your user. I just plop a /dev/ folder in there.

On arch linux, if I want to install eclipse and codeblocks, I can just say:


and everything will run itself.

Ubuntu's weak point is its GUI. Linux's strong point is that its designed for console-interfacing. Once you know regular expressions, bash shell coding, and where the important system files are, and all the important commands (mkdir ls dir nano/vi cat grep cd mv ps kill tar wget etc.) then you'll love linux for how easy it is to preform complicated tasks!

Quote: "I like NeuroFuzzy as a person, but I don't like him as a poster"
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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 00:31
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I Love Windows Vista! I've yet to have a problem with it, My computer, being 4 years old (2007 model HP G50 Laptop) Has only crashed once, overheated over 10 times (mainly due to lack of ventilation issues, now fixed), and only has 4gbs out of 120 gbs of HDD space left, still works like a charm, the only thing that's wrong with it now, is that one of the screws in the screen came off so now i have to be really careful with it, so apparently it's structurally failing before it's hardware\software fails.

http://awolthehunted.blogspot.com/
For the latest news on my FPS in development, check out my blog!
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 01:30
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Quote: "I Love Windows Vista! I've yet to have a problem with it, My computer, being 4 years old (2007 model HP G50 Laptop) Has only crashed once, overheated over 10 times (mainly due to lack of ventilation issues, now fixed), and only has 4gbs out of 120 gbs of HDD space left, still works like a charm, the only thing that's wrong with it now, is that one of the screws in the screen came off so now i have to be really careful with it, so apparently it's structurally failing before it's hardware\software fails.
"


your lack of problems with win vista is kind of like me and how radeon cards love me lol.


dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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Le Shorte
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 02:53
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I have never had my computer crash using Vista. It's froze a bit, but I had more freezing with XP. Really, I've got no problems with Vista besides that compatibility is a bit wonky at times. 7 seems pretty good, but I've barely used it.
Haven't used a Linux, though.

Cheesehead for life.
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Airslide
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 06:41
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Vista worked fine for me too, but I'd definently say to go with 7. There really shouldn't be anything that runs on Vista and not 7 and choosing that would be choosing a lesser operating system (Vista wasn't bad IMO, just not as good).

So far of all desktop operating systems 7 is the one I'm most happy with.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 06:51
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LIEnux is a pain in the cherries, UBUNTU is such a failcake... Vista did me good, until I got onto 7... and XP was dreadful...

I have a theory 8 is going to make a lot of devs angry

Result = Get 7

[whats your system specs btw?]

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anayar
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 07:46
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Ive been on Vista for the past couple of years and have to say its worked fine for me... well considering all I do is modelling and not really much intense game creation unlike some people

But seriously, Ive used Windows 7, and if I wasnt such a cheapo I would upgrade all my PC's. Works like a charm, smooth interface, takes less time to load programs (mainly Max... at least IMHO).

Wouldnt go with the Ubuntu option as your main OS, but Id definitely partition my disk and keep Ubuntu on there just in case windows has a microsoft moment...(or like me you forget your passwords )

Cheers,
Anayar


For KeithC
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 08:53
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yup. can't really fail with a 40 gig linux partition.

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Wolf
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 10:46
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Quote: "Ubuntu's weak point is its GUI. Linux's strong point is that its designed for console-interfacing."


Indeed Ubuntu however is disguised into being a simple to use GUI OS that pretends to do most for you. However, it is not as soon as you dont do mainstream tasks.

Quote: "My only complaint is older games dont work with it."


Please elaborate on that

Quote: "[whats your system specs btw?]"


I operate a quad core something. System managment calls it an Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 2,66 Ghz.
Its rather dated but works fine
My graphics card is an nVidia 9600Gt
I have 3GB Ram and some creative soundcard that causes more problems than any soundchip I ever had.

Thanks for all the info folks. I'll check what I have to pay for a Win7 Copy.



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 18:01 Edited at: 8th Oct 2011 18:03
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^If you get a windows system builder thing its about $100 for the home premium edition.
[edit]
http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Premium-64bit-System-Builder/dp/B004Q0PT3I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318086111&sr=8-1

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Wolf
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Posted: 9th Oct 2011 18:54
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Thanks Neurofuzzy! I just ordered my copy of windows 7, so this thread might aswell be locked

Thanks for all the insight!

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 9th Oct 2011 21:43
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32 or 64 bit?

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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 00:55
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On an aside...

Ubuntu is a good introduction to Linux, but I feel that in recent years it has been completely dumbed down and prettied up to appeal more to computer novices transitioning from Windows.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that the Linux world is so much more accessible now - Ubuntu is how I, and a great many others, got into Linux in the first place. Just I believe that it doesn't give a true insight into the power of Linux, especially as it is now as )if not more) bloated as recent Windows releases.

Arch Linux is the best thing invented!


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mm0zct
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 12:34 Edited at: 10th Oct 2011 12:35
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I just thought I'd chip in on the linux front, since I have a couple of points:

"has tons of loose codefiles that spam you appfolders to the max" From this I take it you mean that all the application configuration files are stored in /home/username/.application_name which is actually nicer than windows does it, which can have them scattered in various directories in the user's home folder (they're just hidden, but linux hides them too, any file or folder beginning with a . is hidden). I have no problems with this, because it means your application settings follow your home folder. It is common practice to install /home as a separate partition, then if you install another distribution you can use the same home folder, and a lot of your applications and settings will be remembered.

My other point is on the ubuntu front, ubuntu has always grated me wrong, some people like it, but their changes over stock gnome-2 (and now with their unity interface) just don't work for me.

I have Xubuntu on my netbook, but really I've always been a redhat/fedora person. Fedora 14 is what I use currently on my work desktop and a partition on my laptop (the other being win7). Sadly Fedora15 has gone with Gnome3, which is much like unity in breaking a lot of what I liked from gnome2, so if you decide to try it I would say get an Xfce respin.

Do not expect your windows software to work in linux, but expect there to probably be an open source equivalent. Most distributions have a nice GUI for browsing these available packages, like synaptic, or yumex, but getting the hang of the command line package manager (apt, yum, emerge etc) commands to install packages on your system is definitely worthwhile.

Wine (an application that lets you run windows binaries in linux) will run a lot of windows software, but there's still a lot it won't, dark basic pro binaries still seem to not work for example.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 00:57 Edited at: 11th Oct 2011 01:00
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My biggest problem with linux is not that the GUI is generally bad, it's just that most programs lack the gui equivalent of "sudo". If I try to open a file for which I don't have the correct access rights, it should ask for a password, not simply fail.

There are also some annoyances with access settings on network file systems and the like, plus a problem which causes some programs to be unable to save over an existing file if it's on a network, even with the right access.

All these things are easy to fix, it just seems that nobody in the linux world wants to admit that a particular problem is with their code.

I have to admit, I do like the easy access to hardware and flexibility of developing on linux though. And the package managers are great... When they work

edit:
Oh yeah, final problem: there seem to be no decent debuggers on linux, and good IDEs are hard to come by too...

[b]
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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 10:00
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Quote: "Oh yeah, final problem: there seem to be no decent debuggers on linux, and good IDEs are hard to come by too..."

I guess it depends on what you're debugging, but I've found GDB to be an excellent solution. Eclipse comes highly recommended, although given the 10 days I've just spent trying to get it to play nice with a project and GDB at work (5 different variants, 5 different bugs) I'm a bit hesitant at recommending it. That said the actual editor itself is pretty nice. Unfortunately there's just too much going on, the UI needs a re-design.


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Jeff032
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 14:20
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While the last time I tried Ubuntu it at least didn't completely freeze within 30 seconds of me logging in, I needed to spend hours trying to figure out why the GUI wouldn't start after installing graphics drivers. Turns out I needed to change menu.lst to add vmalloc=<some number>MB, because it was running out of memory and is apparently incapable of realizing this itself. An obvious solution, of course.

www.jeffhube.com
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MrValentine
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 15:27
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its funny how this thread turned into a whatevanuxtu thread as the OP has declared he is getting Win 7... still wondering which edition you got Wolf... hope it was 64bit...

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n008
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 15:29
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OpenSuSe 11.4 / Windows 7 Dual Boote.

64 bit for both, ofc.

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
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MrValentine
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 15:35
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huh?

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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 15:50
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I still run a dual boot with XP and Windows 7 and I always use the XP boot. My SB Audigy Platinum never worked properly in 7, nor does some old software I still enjoy using, even in compatibility modes. For most people it'll be fine though.

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Hassan
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 18:42
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get windows 8, i guess you can get a free dev edition or smth for now so you can test things out

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MrValentine
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I have a worrying thought about Win8 and us devs on here... i heard something not too nice... theyre ditching VS...

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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 11th Oct 2011 20:56
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I highly doubt they're going to ditch their flagship development product.


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Jeff032
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 05:05
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If they were ditching VS, then VS 11 wouldn't have been included in the preview.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 06:23
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Quote: "LIEnux"


Oh. Just...just no. It's "Linux" as in "linen", like the fabric used to make soft towels. LIEnux is a bastardized pronunciation that Tux simply won't stand for.

Quote: "If they were ditching VS, then VS 11 wouldn't have been included in the preview."


Excellent point!

I heard a rumor that they were going to ditch the XNA framework, but I cry foul on it, simply because it doesn't hold water. Also, why would Microsoft get rid of a such a successful thing?


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ionstream
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Quote: "OpenSuSe 11.4 / Windows 7 Dual Boote."


Et tu, Boote?

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bitJericho
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@Diggsey

It fails on authorization issues because otherwise thousands of scripts would all hang up and have bizarro error messages. Linux is built on the CLI, everything uses it to talk to everything else.

You could always change the behavior of the shell though, or create your own shell to work how you want it to.

If you see bugs, have you actually ticketed them? Have you ever filed a patch?

Linux isn't Windows, nobody's responsible for give you the experience you want. It's open source, take control of your experience


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mm0zct
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Just to add a +1 to the fact gdb is a very powerful debugger when you get used to it.

As far as IDEs go there's: netbeans, eclipse, codeblocks, kdevelop, sun studio (netbeans based) and probably others which do the usual IDE stuff like code completion, compiler integration (gcc/clang/icc are the usual C compilers) etc.
Most of them will integrate with gdb as well for c/c++ code, and Eclipse and netbeans are very good Java IDEs.

Personally I'm a command line person, except for heavy text editing. Gedit or the like usually suffices for small projects, and netbeans/eclipse for larger ones, but I use makefiles on the command line to build, and run/debug from the command line.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 22:12 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 22:16
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Quote: "It fails on authorization issues because otherwise thousands of scripts would all hang up and have bizarro error messages."


Not if it was designed and programmed well.

Quote: "Linux isn't Windows, nobody's responsible for give you the experience you want. It's open source, take control of your experience"


Linux may not be Windows but they both have the same role, I'm not comparing apples to oranges. Sure I could change how it worked if I wanted to and had the time. I could also change quite a lot of how Windows worked if I wanted too (admittedly in a more limited capacity, but pretty much anything in dlls on the system can be hooked into and changed) In fact, if I had the time I'd simply write my own OS.

Quote: "Just to add a +1 to the fact gdb is a very powerful debugger when you get used to it."

It may well be powerful, that doesn't make it a decent replacement. Using it directly means having yet another window open, if I want to see the current line I'm on in the editor I have to manually go to the correct file and line, and certainly for debugging, a GUI is far more effective than a CLI. When I'm debugging I want to see as much relevent information about the current state clearly laid out on the screen as will fit, that way I can see it at a glance. I've never seen anything that comes even close to the effectiveness of the VS debugger on linux. Also, if I want to see the value of a variable, it will almost always be one which is present in the code near the current location. In VS I can simply hover over it and see the value. In GDB I have to type in the whole name, yet more pointless effort.

[b]
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ionstream
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Yeah I'm definitely with Diggsey on this one. The authorization thing was not something they actively thought about and came to the conclusion they should NOT put it in. I'm all for command line tools and such, but they are not documented nearly as well as they should be.

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mm0zct
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Posted: 17th Oct 2011 03:00 Edited at: 17th Oct 2011 03:02
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Diggsey: I think you're sounding rather defensive, I never said VS didn't have a good debugger, it does, and so does xcode, all I was saying was that gdb is also a very powerful debugger. It might not have the visual bells and whistles.. that's not the unix philosophy, it's up to the IDE (netbeans or eclipse for example) to integrate with gdb to provide the experience you are looking for, and they do to a degree.

I work, live and breath on the bash shell, so using gdb from the command line feels natural to me. I am running the application from the command line that I am debugging anyway, so sticking "gdb --args" in front of my previous line is simple. GDB is also pretty good with threaded applications, I've never tried to debug a threaded application in VS but I don't know how the visual representation really works for a variable value, because it can be different on each stack.

I also find navigating complex hierarchies of instances of objects simple in gdb, especially with the aid of omnipresent tab completion.

Ionstream: you do know about "man" don't you? also most of the command line tools take the --help and/or --useage options, on top of having man pages.

tl,dr: OS's and tools are like marmite, most people seem to either love them or hate them, lets just agree that we have preferences, and there's not necessarily a "right" way of doing things

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Wolf
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Posted: 18th Oct 2011 02:58
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@MrValentine:

Quote: "its funny how this thread turned into a whatevanuxtu thread as the OP has declared he is getting Win 7... still wondering which edition you got Wolf... hope it was 64bit..."


Yes it is!

Sorry, I overred your post.


Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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