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Geek Culture / Ghost Stories

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 21st Oct 2011 22:33 Edited at: 21st Oct 2011 22:37
Quote: "I do not think the Newton things is a fact"

Quote: "Oh dear."

I couldn't think of anything to say in response to that either. In fact, I'm not sure if he's joking or being serious.

I guess the only response to that could be, 'Well you may believe what you want, and if you want to believe that the 'Newton thing' is wrong, than that's fine; just know that you are wrong. Because Newton was in fact, not wrong. As far as I'm aware, he wasn't.'

Quote: "I can see this thread heading towards lock. and it's a shame. I really like the subject, its just the rivalries it conjures up make for ugly and repetitive reading.

what I would really like to see is people with tales to post them without fear and then for people with other points of view to give potential explanations.

hell, I'm half tempted to post my own experiences even though medication stopped them, some of them are just downright strange.

and that is the basis for people to believe in strange things like ghosts and the spirit world. It is so real and it all adds up so exactly that you cannot discount it... until drugs stop it dead in its tracks. even still some parts I still wonder about.

its all lucid enough that I am still willing to listen to others with similar stories and take them relatively seriously.

I just think that rather than saying
"are so"
"are not"
"are too!"
"are not"
"are so"
"not so"
etc...

It would be nice to hear peoples strange experiences for what they are, strange experiences."

This thread started at the bottom of the hill. It can't go downhill when it's already at the bottom.

The entire problem with this thread, is that ghosts don't exist. People don't have real ghost stories. So as nice as it would be to "hear people's ghost stories," it's simply not going to happen. It's impossible for this thread to simply stay on the course of "I saw a ghost in my house!" stories.


Quote: "this is the problem with philosophical based debate, there are so many ways of viewing it that disagreements often flare up and tempers can rise."

There hasn't been a single post in this thread where a person's temper has risen. This entire thread has and will remain a civil debate amongst the people here.

Quote: "again, no issue with debate, I just like the origin of the thread and dont wanna see the subject blacklisted before it ever got off the ground."

There has been no reason whatsoever for this thread to be locked. No one here has posted angry. Just because people are debating something, doesn't mean they are angry. TheComet is debating the possible existence of ghosts because they can't be disproved, me and others are simply saying they just don't exist.

There might be a few people here who will post their "ghost stories," but for the most part, you will hardly be reading stories because real ones simply don't exist. And most people here realize this.


And seeing as the original poster has only responded once and to the very second poster right after his post, I can assume this thread was a joke to begin with.

TheComet
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 00:03
Quote: "The entire problem with this thread, is that ghosts don't exist. People don't have real ghost stories. So as nice as it would be to "hear people's ghost stories," it's simply not going to happen. It's impossible for this thread to simply stay on the course of "I saw a ghost in my house!" stories."


My dad witnessed a strange phenomena that could be described as a possible "ghost". I was able to get him to write the following for all of you:

====================================================================================

Er hi all.... First of all, I would like to state that I am a classically trained scientist with a PhD and in general a skeptic of all things. That said, one needs to be open to the principle of Occam's Razor to ensure that we remain open to new phenomena as well as the inevitable shifts in paradigms which unfortunately people tend to hang onto like religious fundamentalists.

My ghost story happened in my childhood, I was about 8 years old and sleeping in my bed like any other night. For some reason I woke in the early hours, which was not something I normally did. The room was completely dark and I woke suddenly and unexpectedly with my eyes fully open. To my absolute astonishment, I saw a figure standing next to my bed. It appeared as an outline composed of lines of light in the form of an adult man in non-descript clothes. At first I thought it was some sort of dream and I sat bolt upright in my bed, it did not vanish, it was still there. The figure was about 6ft tall and I was looking up at it. The face was looking down at me and I could clearly see the outline of the eyes, cheeks, mouth and hair all composed of lines of light. It moved towards me and I think I called out in fright and moved into the corner of my bed. At this point it stopped and then the entire figure began to dissolve and retreat to the wall on the far side of the room. The whole episode lasted for maybe a minute. Once it vanished I did what any 8 year old would do and hid under the covers whimpering for some time. I then ran to the family living room and sat for a while before waking my parents to tell them what had happened.

I do not label this a ghost story but an observed phenomenon not explainable. And herein lies the problem with the scientific method. The Popper hypothesis maintains that gravity is a reproducible effect and theory only so long as every time one drops an apple it falls. What happens however when one person in a million drops their apple and it floats off into the sky?

I have spent many years studying fringe science and phenomena which clearly exist and may not be reproducible, it is not uncommon and in my view is the most exciting frontier of investigation.

In regard to ghosts or in particular my "ghost" story, I cannot explain it, but I cannot dismiss it and nor can anyone else. All we can to is keep an open mind and hope that perhaps observations such as mine and many thousands of others, although often explainable, may in some cases present us all with a key to new frontiers of understanding.

I could spend quite some time sharing profound areas of fringe science which quietly await acceptance and explanation, I guess Galileo and Newton had similar views. The difference is of course they were able to push back old dogma and get people to understand the world in new ways and that's what made them great.

=================================================================================

So I guess you all see now where I get some of my influences from, and why I just can't agree to the statement "ghosts aren't real". Occam's Razor it is.

TheComet

xplosys
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 04:43
Quote: "Worst state in USA... California"


I'd feel for you brother, but there are too many people around.

I was angry, so angry that I could taste the blood where I had bit my lip. Family has a way of hurting you like no one else can. She knew me all too well and just the right buttons to push. Everything went red as I paced the hall, getting more worked up by the second. How could she have done this to me.

At first I thought it was me getting hot, but it wasn't me at all. It wasn't like a draft either, but more of a cold pocket. I stopped in mid step, stumbled and reached out to the wall for support. Something... someone passed by me. In the narrow hall it felt like when someone pushed past you in a crowded subway car. It wasn't just a feeling either. I actually was moved and felt the pressure of someone squeezing by; Someone very cold.

My eyes told me there was no one there, yet the feeling was so real. I must have worked myself up more than I thought. That was the only logical explanation. Certainly a few days of such intense anger could make you crazy, right? I had to let it go. She was gone now, out of my life for good. She couldn't hurt me anymore. Perhaps a good nights sleep would take the edge off.

It was cold in the bedroom too so I turned the thermostat up a few degrees. The furnace in the hall closet obliged with a quiet hum. Turning back to my bed I saw the covers were on the floor. Had they been there a moment ago? I didn't think so, or at least I hadn't noticed it. I quickly undress, pulled the covers back over the bed and slid under them before I realized I had left the light on. After a moments debate with myself and weighing the benefits of turning it off, I slid back out of the bed.

My feet no sooner hit the floor than I was thrown back on the bed with great force, so much that it took the wind out of me. I was stunned and couldn't move. The cold was all over me again. Suddenly I felt a weight coming down on my chest. The mattress gave way below me and I was pinned. I struggled but it was no use. I was pushed down further and it was getting difficult to breathe.

Now I could feel a breath on my face and then on my ear. I could hear a weak voice. As it got stronger I could make out the words.

"You'll never amount to anything. You're a loser... a failure... good for nothing!"

With my last breath I cried out, "Nooooo, it can't be. I killed you! I Kiiiilllled yoooooouuuuuuuu........!!!!!




There.... that's a ghost story.

Brian.

Fuzz
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 11:18
Quote: "I couldn't think of anything to say in response to that either. In fact, I'm not sure if he's joking or being serious."


He's joking.


Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 13:11 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2011 13:24
Quote: "So I guess you all see now where I get some of my influences from, and why I just can't agree to the statement "ghosts aren't real". Occam's Razor it is."


Your dad was 8 and was asleep in bed. Unfortunately, I can't consider that story credible. All my ghost stories come from when I was young and sleepy too. Your brain is still developing at that age, and when you're half a sleep it's still booting up. See, it's always when someone is in bed, or late at night etc.

I've had dreams I was convinced are real too. I dreamt a whole day of school was I was 12. I went to school convinced it was friday because I'd vividly dreamt most of the parts of a day at school (really mundane dream with nothing special about it), but it was thursday.

Like I said before, you need to be a sane minded fully awake adult in day light before your story cannot be credibly explained by brain sleepiness.

Edit: Also, I currently live in a 16th century gatehouse. People are bound to have died here. I'm often here alone by myself at night. No ghosts yet.

TheComet
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 13:26
Quote: "Your dad was 8 and was asleep in bed. I can't consider that story credible. All my ghost stories come from when I was young and sleepy too. Your brain is still developing at that age, and when you're half a sleep it's still booting up."


You said earlier that you'd like to hear a story where it was (A) nice and bright (B) they were wide awake, (C) they weren't high on drugs , (D) they weren't mentally unstable, and they saw a ghost.

Well that story meets your criteria by 75% : He was wide awake (sitting upright in bed, eyes wide open, heart rate beating like a song of DnB. He even crawled back into a corner and the so-called "ghost" was still present when he looked back), he was not high on drugs or anything of the sort, and he is not mentally unstable (I can say that because it occurred only once in his whole life. If he were mentally unstable, he would have had visions and weird dreams multiple times. So what gives? That doesn't make sense).

I think we should all agree with what Kezzla stated above:

Quote: "It would be nice to hear peoples strange experiences for what they are, strange experiences.

there are definitely scientific explanations for all of them, science being the pursuit of truth and there having to be a truth for every scenario, strange as it may be.

share your reasonable explanations too, for the more delusional amongst us there may be some enlightenment at hand here.

the world of spirit and ghost is strange and wonderful and i like to hear about it."


TheComet

Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 18:12
Quote: "You said earlier that you'd like to hear a story where it was (A) nice and bright (B) they were wide awake, (C) they weren't high on drugs , (D) they weren't mentally unstable, and they saw a ghost.

Well that story meets your criteria by 75% : He was wide awake (sitting upright in bed, eyes wide open, heart rate beating like a song of DnB. He even crawled back into a corner and the so-called "ghost" was still present when he looked back), he was not high on drugs or anything of the sort, and he is not mentally unstable (I can say that because it occurred only once in his whole life. If he were mentally unstable, he would have had visions and weird dreams multiple times. So what gives? That doesn't make sense)."


I dunno dude. He may have felt wide awake, but he just woke up from sleep in the early hours of the morning. Your heart can be racing and you can still be mostly asleep (but waking up). I've had indigestion before which woke me up at 2am with a racing pulse. In fact, that manifested itself as a dream of me being stabbed because of the pain in my chest! Not nice. Who'd have thought a poorly chewed piece of toast could stab you to death in your sleep?!?

I'll give you an example of a vaguely similar story to your dads. I woke up in the middle of the night once because my girlfriend at the time was getting up to go for a late night weeee I watched her get up, walk down the side of the bed, then when she reached the bedroom door, she turned and looked at me. I watched her for about 10 seconds as she stared at me, and it started filling me with dread (lol .. people doing creepy things at night isn't good for the nerves!). My heart was racing too. Then I felt something to my left, head snapped left, and there she was lying in bed next to me. When I looked back, the apparition was gone.

Some people would interpret that as some sort of ghost thing. Maybe her spirit walking about? Or someone watching over us as we slept etc. I think it was probably a coat hanging on the door which looked like a person, and I obviously dreamt/imagined her walking away, but it felt really real.

In that same house I also had someone whisper in my ear, as if they were a few inches away. Again this was late at night and I was by myself. I was scared bumming shoeless, and basically went in my room, closed the door and thought "Ok .... we'll forget that ever happened."

My explanation for that? My room was close to the kitchen and bathroom and I'd just brushed my teeth ready for bed, so it was probably water moving in pipes. I can't remember now, but I would've been sleepy (I was going to bed after all), and I reckon a psssshhhhh kinda sound from the toilet cistern filling up sounded way too close in my sleepy daze. That's what I think anyway. But at the time I was convinced someone had whispered in my ear, and I'm sure many people would've continued to believe that.

Oh, turns out the owners husband (we were renting) had died of a heart attack in that house, and she'd moved away and rented it out. His ghost maybe?!? Some may think so.

Anyway, I don't mean to diss your dad at all. I just think at 8 years old, having just woken up in bed, when you're young, easily scared and very open to these things, you may think something is real when really it's not. Now it's so long ago that all he'd have are vague memories of the conclusions he drew at the time. If he hasn't made the decision it was a dream by now, the information is now too old for him to reach a new conclusion. Ya know ... the facts would now be to old and blurry for him to reassess it as an adult and maybe decide it was a dream.

But eh, I hate being a cynical old fool. I wish I did believe in these things, cos then there would be a new frontier to get excited about. Unfortunately though, there always seems to an explanation.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 19:25 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2011 04:55
Quote: "In regard to ghosts or in particular my "ghost" story, I cannot explain it, but I cannot dismiss it and nor can anyone else."

Yes, you can dismiss it, and so can everyone else. You were 8 years old. When my sister was 8 years old, she claimed to see a little soldier boy ghost walking up and down our hallways. She claimed to have seen him multiple times. She was 8 years old. She didn't see a soldier boy ghost and she knows it now that she's old enough to realize the truth.

Quote: "Anyway, I don't mean to diss your dad at all. I just think at 8 years old, having just woken up in bed, when you're young, easily scared and very open to these things, you may think something is real when really it's not. Now it's so long ago that all he'd have are vague memories of the conclusions he drew at the time. If he hasn't made the decision it was a dream by now, the information is now too old for him to reach a new conclusion. Ya know ... the facts would now be to old and blurry for him to reassess it as an adult and maybe decide it was a dream."

This is exactly what likely happened.

zenassem
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 20:44
What if we replace the term "ghost" with apparitional experience or paranormal phenomena?

Apparitional Experience [from wikipedia]
Quote: "
In psychology and parapsychology, an apparitional experience is an anomalous, quasi-perceptual experience.

It is characterized by the apparent perception of either a living being or an inanimate object without there being any material stimulus for such a perception. The person experiencing the apparition is awake, excluding dream visions from consideration.

In scientific or academic discussion, the term apparitional experience is to be preferred to the term ghost in respect of the following points:
1.The term ghost implies that some element of the human being survives death and, at least under certain circumstances, can make itself perceptible to living human beings. There are other competing explanations of apparitional experiences.
2.Firsthand accounts of apparitional experiences differ in many respects from their fictional counterparts in literary or traditional ghost stories (see below).
3.The content of apparitional experiences includes living beings, both human and animal, and even inanimate objects.[2]
"


Paranormal phenomena is described as any phenomenon or occurrence that exceeds the bounds of what is possible, according to the established principles and laws of science.

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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 20:48
Despite the grief I'll may get I'll share a little story of mine when I was a kid.

One of our cats had 5 kittens and when they were a few weeks old I thought it would be a cool idea to have all the kittens sleep with me. I put all 5 of the kittens on my pillow and went to sleep. In the middle of the night in pitch black darkness I wanted to make sure all the kittens were ok and didn't fall off the bed so I started counting them 1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6. I was shocked and surprised that there was an extra kitten so I counted them again and used my arm to hold onto the kittens that I counted already 1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6. I was too scared to turn on the light for fear of seeing what that extra kitten looked like... I only knew it felt like a cute fluffy kitten. So I went to sleep and left the fluffy ghost/demon kitten on my pillow. When I woke up the next day there were 5 kittens again.

zenassem
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 21:18 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2011 21:34
I can only recall a single personal experience that I've had in this area.

In my early 20's I had an aunt who was ill for a number of years. One night, I was awoken from my sleep, by a voice calling out my name in a gasp, "Eddie". I clearly "remember" waking up and believing someone, in the room, was trying to wake me up; only no one was there. I shrugged it off as a vivid dream and went back to sleep.

The next morning I received a phone call from my mother letting me know that my aunt had passed away in the middle of the night. I remember chills running through my body and my hairs standing on end. I eventually rationalized it as a coincidence. I've never really told anyone. I still find it odd when I think about it. If it was just a dream, why did it happen on THAT night as opposed to any other night over the years? I'm still not exactly sure what to make of it.

One explanation that I thought of. I never actually woke up that night. Initially, I didn't wake up with the memory of the event. After some analyzing it occurred to me that it wasn't until I actually received the phone call that the "memory" of waking up during the night came to me. So could my mind have instantly created a false past memory the same moment that I heard the news? That is something that I can't really answer, though it's quite possible. And it made me unsure as to whether the experience was a true experience of reality, or my mind coping with news I had just heard. Somehow projecting that I had a special link or close relationship to my aunt.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 03:34
@Grog


[b]
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 04:06
Quote: "(I can say that because it occurred only once in his whole life. If he were mentally unstable, he would have had visions and weird dreams multiple times. So what gives? That doesn't make sense).
"


I'm with Fallout here. Besides weird noises in the night and dust in the camera lens, I've had some ghost-like experiences. One time when I was seven or so, I had a dream (or something), and for the next couple days I swore that my family had gone on vacation and I was swordfighting a pirate. About a week later I realized that was so silly it couldn't have possibly happened, but there was a good amount of time that I was completely convinced.

I used to have a lot of trouble sleeping when I was a kid, and one time I this weird ghostly outline walked around the corner, and started walking towards me. I blinked and shook my head and it was gone, and I came to the sensible conclusion that it was in my head, instead of doing a rain dance to make the demons go away.

The brain can trick itself into a lot of things. I remember there was something in the book "Surely you're joking Mr Feynman" where for several hours he was sure that he had solved some fundamental problem (that to the reader was obviously false). I forget what it was but if I remember I'll post the link here.


Basically... people are inherently stupid and gullible in many ways. We need to keep ourselves in-check, so that we either don't go insane (eg not jumping to conclusions), or we realize that we're insane (Like old people saying "my mind isn't what it used to be").

If I was sure that I'd saw a ghost, who knows, I might invest in a lot of equipment that the ghost-hunter TV shows use (like electromomemetemers), and after five or so years of trying to formulate a theory about ghosts and likely having it disproved, I would realize that my recollection of the event, or my clarity at the time of the event, was out of whack.

Think of it this way: How is it that scientists have clung on to the smallest of details in billions of observations to come up with an incredibly cohesive idea of our world, but no one has a decent, accepted theory of ghosts? Maybe it's because it's all in people's heads...?

Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 06:06
@ Diggsey:

Aaaaauuuuuugggghhhhhhh!

Fallout
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 16:19
Quote: "One explanation that I thought of. I never actually woke up that night. Initially, I didn't wake up with the memory of the event. After some analyzing it occurred to me that it wasn't until I actually received the phone call that the "memory" of waking up during the night came to me. So could my mind have instantly created a false past memory the same moment that I heard the news? That is something that I can't really answer, though it's quite possible. And it made me unsure as to whether the experience was a true experience of reality, or my mind coping with news I had just heard. Somehow projecting that I had a special link or close relationship to my aunt."


That is a weird one. My guess would be when you got the bad news, you recalled a memory of a dream you'd had. This would've been on your mind for some time. Dreams are the brain's mechanism for processing and dealing with troublesome emotions, so you probably dreamt about this a lot, but never remembered the dream ... until it become relevant. Just one possible explanation maybe?

Wolf
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 19:31
I had the ability to feel the presence of ghosts since childhood and to actually see them since ...around 18 end 17 I guess.
I'm actually happy that it played out that way, because I needed the ability to scram my feelings away as "my mind playing tricks on me" as I went through puberty because I really needed a certain sence of normality. I don't have that extra luxury now though.

Deal with it or call me insane your call.



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 19:45
Well, I would never call you insane. (to your face ) I will however discount your explanation of your feelings/senses and replace it with one of logic. Not knowing any more specifics I won't pick one and I'm not a psychiatrist.

I would however be interested to know why you feel you had this ability. Did it profit you in any way? Did it allow you to profit others? Was there any particular incident where you thought you were supposed to do something or contact someone? Did you ever divine any purpose for this or was it completely random and without meaning?

Brian.

Wolf
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 19:59 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2011 20:02
Quote: "I will however discount your explanation of your feelings/senses and replace it with one of logic."


The funny thing about logic is that it expands every year of our constant evolution.

It was totally logical for our ancestors to believe the earth was flat and it is totally logical for us now to believe that its round.

Yeah, that has nothing to do with this..

Quote: "Did it profit you in any way? "


Besides knowing that we don't just die and all that is left is a piece of meat? Not really. I can however see the Aura of people and know if they feel good or might be sick. That way I know what fella to sit next to in a train without catching a cold

Edit: and of course exploring my abilities in meditation.

If you think that I would start some "call-center-psychic" business...no!

Quote: "Was there any particular incident where you thought you were supposed to do something or contact someone?"


Like a psychiatrist? No. I had a few sessions as a child because I had problems with concentration and sleeping...but they just figured out that I had an IQ of 137 and was probably just bored by 3rd grade education

Quote: "Did you ever divine any purpose for this or was it completely random and without meaning?"


Could you elaborate on this I don't quiet understand that?

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
Fallout
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 20:06
The cynic in me recounts all the other people who say "I can see ghosts" or "I have a gift", then do absolutely nothing to prove it. They conveniently assume the "I don't have to prove it" attitude, and thus can say whatever they like.

If I could see ghosts for real, I would definitely make it my mission to scientifically investigate my ability, see what positive use it may have, and prove it's existence to the benefit of man kind. It would be far too significant and important to just casually drop into conversation but do nothing with.

Wolf
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 20:13 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2011 20:30
Quote: "The cynic in me recounts all the other people who say "I can see ghosts" or "I have a gift", then do absolutely nothing to prove it. They conveniently assume the "I don't have to prove it" attitude, and thus can say whatever they like.
"


How many of these people do you know? I usually don't tell this anyone.
(because I know, that folks who run around talking about this are usually lonely goth nuts who seek attention)

I just wanted to bring it up in this thread in case someone is similar and wanted to talk about it. If you want prove, you can actually try certain meditation practice yourself or even join buddhist monks for a year or two. I'll certainly do this as soon as the circumstances allow it (now I have to earn some money and actually work for a couple of years haha!).

I have no idea how I could personally prove it I'm totally honest to you!

I could start to copy from certain books I have around etc. but all conspiracy nuts do that too don't they? I bet if we all try to invent a conspiracy that involves mindreading toiletpaper, we could back it up with enough backstory and "facts" that some morons out there would actually believe it.
Edit: Or maybe that an episode of my little pony has satanic messages when played backwards. No takers?

Edit: ah yeah! I'm also talking about "energetic" remains of people that used to live, no paranormal activity ghosts that try to kick you in the nuts or scary little girls with long black hair



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
xplosys
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 20:30
Quote: "Like a psychiatrist? No."


No, I was thinking more along the lines of someone making themselves known to you for a reason. Did you ever feel that someone or something contacted you for a purpose or do you just see dead people for no reason?

I'm not worried about you proving anything any more than I worry about proving my reality. Even if my reality - what I know today, not what I will know tomorrow - is short sighted, it's what I have to work with and it keeps me a reasonable person.

Quote: "Could you elaborate on this I don't quiet understand that?"


Somewhat like the question above, did you ever feel that you have this ability for a reason? Is it a gift that you should somehow use, or a curse?

Please don't feel that I'm messing with you. I really am interested in your thoughts on this.

Brian.

Wolf
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 20:53
Quote: "No, I was thinking more along the lines of someone making themselves known to you for a reason. Did you ever feel that someone or something contacted you for a purpose or do you just see dead people for no reason?"


I have certain dreams of people dying or staring at me but I can't make much sense of it and no, nothing ever tried to contact me directly, that would spook even me.

Quote: "I'm not worried about you proving anything any more than I worry about proving my reality. Even if my reality - what I know today, not what I will know tomorrow - is short sighted, it's what I have to work with and it keeps me a reasonable person.
"


I agree Its like you hear a certain story in the news or from friends that someone had a vision and it happened or people who witness other phenomena. Some of them do actually convince us, but one week later we have forgotten about it and kept going with our everyday life. Our mind works that way and protects a certain reality. The so called "backfire effect". As soon as we discover something like this, we have to overanalize it until we have disproven its existence. You see..I often liked to think that it was just my lifely fantasy or maybe some sort of eyedisease
Its also kind of lies in the family. My father used to experiment a lot with spirituality and meditation (okay, he was a teenager in the 70's...you are also a bit older so I don't have to tell you that these matters where more mainstream back then). I just though "yeah...whatever, your nuts". I was however really relieved that I had someone to talk to that wouldnt call me insane as my mother would just think I'm crazy.

Most people in my family for example knew the exact day they died and even sayd goodbye before it happened. My great-grandfather was "classy" and always perfectly shaved. So he told my grandfather in his deathbed to shave him now, because its time". My grandfather did and right afterwards, he was gone.

I do also have certain "bursts" where I know exactly what is going to happen today, only once, I even knew what people whould say before they did. That actually spooked me.

Quote: "Somewhat like the question above, did you ever feel that you have this ability for a reason? Is it a gift that you should somehow use, or a curse?"


Oh! I strongly believe that we all have if we actually practice them.
But no, no divine intervention, no aliens and no vision of Santa Christ
Maybe there is a reason that will unfold itself one day, maybe I just lose the ability (did I mention that it comes in sudden bursts that last a few hours/days)? As you might see...I don't really take it seriously. Maybe a defensive mechanism to maintain sanity.

@Fallout: Scientists actually do research in this field (especially in russia and asian cultures). A recent thingie that caught my attention was this: Link

Quote: "Please don't feel that I'm messing with you. I really am interested in your thoughts on this.
"


"another psychic on the internet eh? lets troll the sucker!!" I would do it if I where you...I'm also incredibly cynic when it comes to this.



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 22:56 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 04:21
Quote: "
It was totally logical for our ancestors to believe the earth was flat and it is totally logical for us now to believe that its round.
"

Sorry, just had to pick this up - no one ever thought the earth was flat. There are very old references to a round earth, such as in Chaucer, and in the fact even the ancient greeks knew the earth was round, apparently from looking at its shadow on the moon.

Wolf
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2011 23:05 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 01:28
Quote: "Sorry, just had to pick this up - no one ever thought the earth was round. There are very old references to a round earth, such as in Chaucer, and in the fact even the ancient greeks knew the earth was round, apparently from looking at its shadow on the moon.
"


I know Why sorry? I'm just talking about general believes from the middle ages and how it seemed totally logical to the people then

The Antique was a lot more developed then the dark/middleages. ...but then someone concidered it a good idea to think of science and intelligence as the work of the devil/ being a heretic

Edit: If we would just donate the money we spend on nuclear armement and maintaining these things to the nasa...dang! That would be awesome.
I mean, thats what holds it back right? Not enough money in the right ends, too much in the wrong ends.

Hey folks!:: What jumps the shark more? Openly establishing that you have psychic abilities or watching my little pony?
I sure hope I haven't lost my credibility around here

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
xplosys
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 01:47
Even if you were a member of the MLP Clan, you're work here would be impossible to discount.

No offense to the MLP Clan, of course.

Brian.

BiggAdd
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 04:09
Quote: "I am trying so hard right now. God give me the strength I require for this right now!"


I found this amusing in a ironic sort of way.

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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 04:22
Quote: "I know Why sorry? I'm just talking about general believes from the middle ages and how it seemed totally logical to the people then "


I meant no one though it was flat, not no one though it was round I need to learn how to type.

Fuzz
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 05:15
Quote: "I found this amusing in a ironic sort of way."


Glad I'm not the only one.


Wolf
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 05:41
Quote: "I am trying so hard right now. God give me the strength I require for this right now!"


Yeah, I bet the all powerful bein in a mythical place called heaven where you end up if you decline everything fun in this life will certainly grant you strength not to flame those morons believing in ghosts

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 13:21 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 13:22
Yes and thank God I'm an atheist! However, we've got some religious folk on this forum and religious discussion is against the AUP, bringing up could turn the thread into a very touchy subject and I don't think it'd be fair on the religious members of the forum. So to keep you girls in line, lets not go there girlfriend!

Okay, we occassionally get away with religion and politics but just don't give the mods a reason to get feisty.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 20:29 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 20:49
Quote: "Yeah, I bet the all powerful bein in a mythical place called heaven where you end up if you decline everything fun in this life will certainly grant you strength not to flame those morons believing in ghosts"

No but he gives me the strength to not flame the morons not believing in God. And clearly you haven't even the faintest idea of how religion actually works (not that most Atheists do.) I wasn't aware that accepting God and just not being a miserable jack*** to the world is everything fun in life. I'm a beer drinkin', gun slingin', people punchin', redneck, God believer. I believe in God and manage to not miss any fun. It's always funny to me that Atheists are the only ones who don't actually even know what religion is.


Quote: "I found this amusing in a ironic sort of way"

Although yes I do see the irony in it as well.

Quote: "Yes and thank God I'm an atheist! However, we've got some religious folk on this forum and religious discussion is against the AUP, bringing up could turn the thread into a very touchy subject and I don't think it'd be fair on the religious members of the forum. So to keep you girls in line, lets not go there girlfriend!"

I think Seppuku is the only Atheist I can respect. At least he's the only one I know who isn't ass enough to bash God.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 20:41 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 20:43
And suddenly, generalisations everywhere! I'm an atheist, so I don't appreciate the 'no atheists understand religion' thing Redneck, but also why does everyone have to be so condemning to religious folks all the time? Whatever happened to live and let live?

Edit: Oh, hey, nothing wrong with being a miserable jack***. That's how I get most of my kicks.

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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 20:47 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 20:52
I think if you believe in something with absolutely zero evidence you have to learn to put up with the flak you receive for it. It's a little different than not believing in the existence of something that has no evidence. You can't really call someone a moron for not believing in something unless you have evidence that they are wrong; otherwise you're a fool. And when it regards something supernatural there usually is no evidence (which I find unfortunate, because I'd like to believe that ghosts and such exist). It's not cool to call those that do believe morons, though.



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Fallout
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 20:54
Quote: " but also why does everyone have to be so condemning to religious folks all the time? Whatever happened to live and let live?"


Imo, religion is at the highest possible level. If you believe in God, your fundamental point, reason, purpose, destiny etc. is often completely different to a non-believe. I think it makes us more different than sex, race, disability or anything else. I think that's why there is so much tension.

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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 21:06
Quote: "Imo, religion is at the highest possible level. If you believe in God, your fundamental point, reason, purpose, destiny etc. is often completely different to a non-believe. I think it makes us more different than sex, race, disability or anything else. I think that's why there is so much tension."

Well, that's definately true, and what I think in my head is very different to what I say in my words, but there's no reason to bash religion every time it comes up - apart from anything else, it gives us atheists a bad name for being vicious and ignorant - case in point, the Rambo's post.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 21:40 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 21:42
Quote: "It's always funny to me that Atheists are the only ones who don't actually even know what religion is."


Not entirely (I mean, a number of them have belonged to a religion for a very long time, but of course religion itself is incredibly diverse), though I know there are those who don't. By the same token, atheists are so often (so unbelievably often) faced with people who don't actually know what atheism is...including atheists. Anybody trying to discount atheism will open with an argument against the Theory of Evolution and you want to take a brick to their face...well that's a bit extreme, but you know what I mean. Atheism is literally the opposite of theism, no doctrine, no collective views, nothing to group them other than the fact they lack a belief in any kind of deity, which actually includes many Buddhists. Theism is also NOT a doctrine, holds no other collective views and has nothing to group it other than the belief in one or more deities.

So I can imagine how annoying it can be to have people misunderstand what you believe or don't believe, I'm sure there's many of us on either side of the fence that can relate. Whilst to the scientifically minded skeptic (like me) the belief in a deity and the belief in a ghost is no different, because science is very much about what can be measured and it's probably why you yourself recognize the irony. There's even some very scientifically minded people who have faith in some kind of deity's existence. I myself don't understand faith and I'm sure many of those with faith don't understand my lack of faith.

I think it's not so ridiculous to accept people for having a difference in belief and yes, I'll go as far as to tolerate people's belief in ghosts. I'll tolerate any belief so long as they're not hurting anybody because of it. I think at the end of the day the biggest problem is how we label people, I could say 'Christian' and then bring 2 Christians who couldn't be any more different. I think if people can put trivial differences aside we can focus on the important things in life. Like my plans to take over the world, seriously, it has been lacking rather a lot of progress as of late.

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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 21:44
Quote: "I'll tolerate any belief so long as they're not hurting anybody because of it."

I think that might be the wisest comment to come out of this thread.

Wolf
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 22:13 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 22:15
Indeed! "thy shall keep thy religion to thyself" - George Carlin

Besides...I actually do believe in deity.



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 22:25 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 22:26
We can all learn to tolerate people with different views, but can we truly respect each other? Atheists think religion is for the misguided, the brainwashed, or sheep, and religious people think Atheism is for the soulless, faithless and ultimately damned to hell.

We can coexist, sure .... but that doesn't sound like a recipe for mutual respect to me!! (Not between intellectuals anyway)

Wolf
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 22:36 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 22:39
Quote: "
We can coexist, sure .... but that doesn't sound like a recipe for mutual respect to me!! (Not between intellectuals anyway) "


I believe the key is not trying to force ones point of view or believe of truth on another.

I have my spiritual belief in my signature...

People that are pushing it are the extremists in both groups.

Atheist: "I don't believe in god"
Christian "I believe in god and jesus christ as his prophet"

Extreme Atheist "I dont believe in god and you are a stupid brainwashed sheep if you do"
Extreme Christian " I do believe in god and you will go to hell and burn for eternity if you dont".



-Wolf

Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively Theres no such thing as death,life is only a dream,and were the imagination of ourselves.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 22:56 Edited at: 24th Oct 2011 23:01
Quote: "We can all learn to tolerate people with different views, but can we truly respect each other? Atheists think religion is for the misguided, the brainwashed, or sheep, and religious people think Atheism is for the soulless, faithless and ultimately damned to hell.

We can coexist, sure .... but that doesn't sound like a recipe for mutual respect to me!! (Not between intellectuals anyway)"


The generalisation is inaccurate, but I know what you're saying. One of my Christian friends believes that because of what she believes God's nature to be is that people go to heaven because they have lead good lives and, even if indirectly, exact gods plan that they're not going to be hellbound...so if I'm a good atheist, I'm going to heaven, by her belief anyway. By others', yeah, I'm hellbound.


It's an interesting point. Can we respect one and another? We can respect that we think differently but can we genuinely respect that person's views? I think it depends on what you actually think, if you accept, "well I could be wrong" I think there's more room for respect, because you're accepting that as human beings we're finite and flawed creatures that as a result of being finite and flawed beings that we can in fact be wrong to any extent.

Science is a progressive method and scientists consistently find themselves correcting things they misjudged or were wrong about, it's about what we discover and what evidence suggest and that is limited by many things, such as our current understanding and our current technology. Newton had a great model for physics, but Einstein had to 1-up him by coming up with something a lot more accurate. Heck, Darwin's ideas are incredibly outdated.

And I can't think of a religion that says man is perfect, in fact they pretty much tell us the opposite.

BiggAdd
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Posted: 24th Oct 2011 23:58 Edited at: 25th Oct 2011 00:01
When I said it was Ironic, I didn't hopefully come across as saying that believing in a god is moronic.

I personally don't mind if someone believes in a God, but I have to agree with Benjamin when he says:
Quote: "I think if you believe in something with absolutely zero evidence you have to learn to put up with the flak you receive for it"


That's not trying to be mean, that actually a rather vague explanation of the scientific method.
I wouldn't tolerate someone calling a religion moronic, just as I wouldn't call someone who believes in UFOs and Ghosts moronic.

Thats where I found the irony in your post RedneckRambo, I wasn't insinuating in the slightest that your beliefs were moronic.


People are free to believe what they want, as long as they accept scientific fact. So for things like Gods, Ghosts, Aliens, I feel that people are entitled to believe what they want (Unless science has disproved it).
So for instance, if I were to believe the moon was made of Cheese... that would be moronic. I would still be entitled to my opinion, but it would still be moronic.

Quote: "
Heck, Darwin's ideas are incredibly outdated."

Not really. Darwin's theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is pretty much accepted as scientific fact (There could be a chance one day that Natural Selection isn't the way things evolve, but the evidence is so compelling that you just can't doubt it). Science knows more about natural selection than it does about Gravity.

Fallout
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Posted: 25th Oct 2011 00:14 Edited at: 25th Oct 2011 00:23
Quote: "if you accept, "well I could be wrong" I think there's more room for respect, because you're accepting that as human beings we're finite and flawed creatures that as a result of being finite and flawed beings that we can in fact be wrong to any extent"


Well, that's my philosophy chap. Kind of. I'm neither an atheist nor theist nor religious. I'm completely agnostic. IMO, the universe has far too many secrets for someone to be able to claim with any certainty that there is no deity (or ghosts for that matter). I consider that claim unscientific. Similarly, there are too many contradictions and leaps of faith to really have full confidence in one of the many religions (again IMO!).

In fact, I would argue a true scientist has a duty to be agnostic. Bum shoe to you all!

You're right about the generalisation though. I was taking the more extreme examples from each end of the scale, but I do feel those views represent a large proportion of each group ... especially the atheist view. Don't know enough about Islam to know what happens to infidels when they die though, or what the majority believes. That's a big religion so their beliefs really count statistically!

I think there are more Christians who think non-believers will still go to heaven, than there are atheists who happily accept religious people without judging them. Not based on any stats, just a feeling from people I know. But I think that might be for one simple reason - it's easy to laugh at a person, but it's much harder to accept the idea they're going to burn in hell.

BiggAdd
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Posted: 25th Oct 2011 00:24 Edited at: 25th Oct 2011 00:27
Quote: "In fact, I would argue a true scientist has a duty to be agnostic. Bum shoe to you all!"


Well thats the idea, if you are a scientists, you just have to say "I don't know".

If you were to ask my why objects gravitate to each other, why do things have mass, what happened before the big bang, is there a god... I would have to say, "I don't know".

Because nobody knows.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 25th Oct 2011 00:56
Quote: "When I said it was Ironic, I didn't hopefully come across as saying that believing in a god is moronic."

I don't think you did at all. My original post was entirely ironic, which was half the reason why I posted it lol.

Quote: "Extreme Atheist "I dont believe in god and you are a stupid brainwashed sheep if you do"
Extreme Christian " I do believe in god and you will go to hell and burn for eternity if you dont"."

There are far too many of both.

xplosys
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Posted: 25th Oct 2011 01:03
Quote: "No but he gives me the strength to not flame the morons not believing in God."


So, I must be one of the morons.

Quote: "Atheists think religion is for the misguided, the brainwashed, or sheep, and religious people think Atheism is for the soulless, faithless and ultimately damned to hell."


Educated people don't think that way. Although God and religion have no place in my life, I can truly appreciate the place they have in the world and in the lives of believers.

Brian.

zenassem
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Posted: 25th Oct 2011 02:38
So lets discuss topics that we are not suppose to discuss, as per the AUP...

Bye bye, thread!

Your signature has been erased by a mod please reduce it to 600 x 120.
BiggAdd
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Posted: 25th Oct 2011 04:05
Quote: "So lets discuss topics that we are not suppose to discuss, as per the AUP...

Bye bye, thread!"

I remember making this ages ago:


More than likely, this is what will happen to most people in here, including me.

GotAway
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Posted: 25th Oct 2011 05:07
Quote: "No but he gives me the strength to not flame the morons not believing in God."


And how exactly would you define a "moron"? What you have is faith: belief without evidence. I don't see how anyone can think that faith is a virture, but I respect your right to believe what you want.

What if I told you that gravity didn't exist, and instead "falling" was caused by 1000000000 magical Ground Goblins that pull objects towards them with their magical ethereal lassoos. I have faith in this! May the magical Ground Goblins give me the strength to not flame the morons for not believing in the all powerful Lasoos! Oh and you have to believe in them or else you will go to magical lasoo hell! Think about it...if I'm wrong then I lose nothing, but if you're wrong then you go to lasoo hell forever, so what reason do you have to defy our mighty Ground Goblin Lords? Are you willing to take that risk?

As my theory can not be DISPROVED, the only logical thing to do is all be agnostic as to the existence of gravity. Physisists must keep an open mind when discussing Ground Goblins, it would be stupid to just dismiss them so easily. (I'm looking at you now Comet )

I will be doing several experiments over the next few days by dropping bricks on my feet. If I sense any ethereal lasoos in the area then I will consider that overwhelming evidence for my theory.

I await my Nobel Prize.

If a tree falls in the forest and kills a woman - Wait.... why the hell is there a forest in the kitchen?
xplosys
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Posted: 25th Oct 2011 05:46
Quote: "Oh and you have to believe in them or else you will go to magical lasoo hell!"


I'm not taking any chances. Seems like I heard of them before.

Quote: "I await my Nobel Prize."


Shouldn't be a problem. They've been giving them to anybody lately. The money would be nice though.

Brian.

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