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Geek Culture / Game Engines

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Lord Herakles the Great
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2012 09:50
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I have been making my game in DarkGDK. It, and DBPro before it, have served me well for the past few years that I have been game making (more like learning how to make games). However, I feel I may be ready to move on to something with a bit more graphical power.

I have looked at Unity, Leadwerks, UDK, and others, but I still can't make up my mind. Learning curve isn't an issue for me. I spent several years with DBPro and DarkGDK, so I'm willing to spend several more years learning how to use a new engine. What really concerns me is workflow. Once I've learned how to use an engine, what kind of speed and ease of use can I expect when making a game in it?

I am willing to sacrifice ease of use for graphical power, to a certain extent. But since I don't have actual experience with any engine besides DBPro/DarkGDK, I can't make an informed decision about which one offers the best balance of graphical power and ease of use for my needs. I need some help in making my decision from people who have actual experience with several different engines.

Formerly known as Housewares
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Rampage
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2012 11:05
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UDK. Loads of support comes with such a great community.
In the long run it would be better, it's graphically superior. Supported by a massive company (which does help, it'll never get dropped).
And you know that loads of games on the shelf that are currently running Unreal Engine.
Also, coming from C++, learning the UnrealScript framework should be a relatively enjoyable experience.

It was for me

Regards,

Max
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Benjamin
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2012 12:20
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I'd suggest UDK since it's free for non-commercial use, the licensing options are favourable, and more importantly it's one of the best engines out there. I wouldn't say it's necessarily hard to use, although there is a fair bit to learn if you want to understand how everything works.

I can second what Rampage says about UnrealScript, it really is a nice language to use, and a good step-up from C++, in terms of game development anyway.



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old_School
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2012 19:35
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If you don't want to take the time to make your own engine, I recomend Torque, Unity or UDK. All three engines have a great platform to build off and have excellent support. But if time is not a factor, I recomend you make your own using C#. It may take a little more effort but in the end you will have a better result.
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Teh Stone
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 00:17
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Fair enough peope do have their own in house engines, but I don't know how people always seem to tell beginner game developer to write there own engine, the chance of that being able to compete with three of the biggest names accessible to indie/hobbyist developers is nil.

I don't mean to sound off here old_School but we've seen your games, if you have experience with all those tools why have you not published anything.
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 00:20
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Only use UDK if you're programmerly minded. Often the answer from the UDK community is to look at the source code already present, and build from that. If you can't get your head around peeling apart what Epic have given to you, then it becomes very difficult indeed.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 01:18
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I would say... learn to enhance your graphics yourself... at least that way you do not become generic in your works... I hope someone knows what I mean by that...

I think my aim after DBPro would be something like C# and XNA and of course immediately after DBPro its C++ first... I also am about to learn LUA scripting but still can not figure out where to start with that...

But yeah do not go for an engine... build your own if your willing to put time into it...

The beauty of that is...

A ~ no copyrights to pay... you own it...
B ~ you know whats what and how to build on top of it...
C ~ you have the possibility of selling and licencing it...

My few cents...

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 01:29 Edited at: 23rd Jan 2012 01:29
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I think you should choose between Unity and UDK. Leadwerks doesn't really have the developer base or the portability that UDK and Unity offer.

As for choosing between them, you would have to just figure that out for yourself.
Seeing as UDK is free and there is a free version of Unity, Why not try prototype your game in both?

Your productivity in an engine is far superior to any performance or slight graphical advantage another engine could bring.
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Indicium
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 01:31
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Quote: "of course immediately after DBPro its C++ first"


He said that he'd used DarkGDK, which is a library for C++.

I'm personally yet to finish a project. Like you, the main two things I've used are darkbasic pro, and DarkGDK afterwards. More recently I've been trying to write my own game engine in C++ using Ogre as the graphics library.

In my opinion, if you want to make an in depth game, don't do this. The workload is far too much for one person, you'll just find yourself stressed and eventually give up( if you're anything like me that is ). If you want to make smaller games, then this is just fine of course, I plan on making some smaller games and building a portfolio, at some point.

My advice would be to use a game engine. I lean towards Unreal because the licensing terms are very reasonable. I've only toyed with it a little, but it seems like a really nice engine. I have no actual experience on it, like you asked for, but I thought I'd still give you my opinion.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

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WLGfx
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 01:33
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OGRE apparently is a good graphics engine and can do an awful lot. However Irrlicht is a free license and is also pretty powerful. Both support OpenGL and DirectX...

Depending on how deep into programming you wish to get you could always dig into some of the code from http://scene.org/ which is real in depth and down to the very bare bones of graphics programming skills. Some of those coders can make an awesome 3D graphics demo in just 64kb...

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
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heyufool1
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 01:34
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Be careful with UDK though. When I used it I had a ton of troubles with getting the lighting to look right, and there are some weird quirks with the UV maps that can cause some lighting issues. Be sure to follow tutorials.

"So hold your head up high and know. It's not the end of the road"

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Rampage
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 01:55
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OGRE is a massive step up from DarkGDK no matter what.
We've used it in a couple of graphics labs I've taken at my University and from what I have experienced it's more of a graphics library than a games library.
And it has quite a steep learning curve.

On another note,
The royalty license is quite good for UDK actually.
You pay them $99 for the licence, and then you are not required to pay royalties until after you make your first $50,000.

Regards,

Max
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 02:23
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I think it comes down to choice, but you're looking at some pretty decent suggestions.

Unity3D is great and it's simple enough to use and get the hang of.

UDK is perhaps a little more complex, free to use but if you want to make money you pay royalties. Of course it's amazingly powerful. This engine obviously has a lot of notoriety, though I think there's some pretty fantastic indie engines out there.

Torque is an excellent engine, you get full access to its source code and a great deal of programming work is done for you. I found it hard to understand and had a steep learning curve...of course, I am talking about the editing the source code side of things. The scripting is fairly straight forward. However, I've only used TGE, the original Torgue Game Engine, which is ancient now and Torgue has long since grown.


All will be different from C++ & DGDK, but your C++ & DGDK knowledge will be helpful in learning them. I guess it's a case of finding what you'd prefer to use and you seem very keen to expand your mind, which is always a good thing of course.


C++ & XNA is always an option too, it opens up XBox 360 development.

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Lord Herakles the Great
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 03:32 Edited at: 23rd Jan 2012 03:32
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I'm no where near ready to sell a game, so licensing isn't really an issue for right now. For the future, though, it's nice to know that the pricing on these engines is actually reasonable.

Given the options of Unity, UDK, or making my own engine using OGRE, I think I'm leaning towards UDK. If I were making a Tetris clone or something simple like that, I would go with making my own engine. But I'm interested in making FPS, Stealth, and eventually RPG games. Using an engine like UDK will work just fine for the games I plan to make, and is less work than making my own. And it will probably look a lot better.

The only other concern for me is mods. I actually started out with making mods (more specifically, Oblivion and Fallout 3 mods). I only moved to making my own games when I wanted more control than moding pre-existing games gave me. It would be nice if I could make it so that people could make mods for my games, and I'm not sure if that's possible or even allowed with UDK. If it is, then I will definately invest my time and effort into learning UDK, otherwise I might consider a different engine.

Formerly known as Housewares
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MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 07:47
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Quote: "Quote: "of course immediately after DBPro its C++ first"

He said that he'd used DarkGDK, which is a library for C++.
"


eh?

Was on about me lol

I think I am happy with using High level stuff for now... But if someone makes their own engine... say in C++ for example... does that mean its also high level? I do not understand this area... sorry hope I am not going off topic... though I am on about engines if so I will start a new thread... at some poing when I get closer to toying with GDK...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 10:48
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For people to make mods of your own games, I think you might be looking to make the game from scratch, perhaps in Dark GDK - if you use something like LUA and have a lot of data run off of the scripts then users could just edit script data. If you're using UDK or even something like Torque (where it would definitely be possible) it might be worth asking about what your licence permits you to do.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2012 15:33
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I think mods are more than acceptable in UDK, given that you can use UDK to crack open UT3 packages and the like. As long as they keep up compatibility between versions, it should work.
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old_School
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 00:03 Edited at: 24th Jan 2012 00:05
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Above someone talked about in house engines. Well a lot of people suggest in make your own because it’s the complete solution and best solution to meet your needs. Game engines sold on the market are "generic" engines designed to give you a base platform to build off and create your game. On the flip side though you have to learn how to use their generic engine in order to use it as your base. As were in house you already know how to use the engine so you can build faster and more on target.

However, something else to consider is finishing the software period. A lot of people on here have great ideas, lots of time and drive but never complete the software. I feel personally its better to make several small pieces of software completed then make one giant software uncompleted. Every software you make big or smaller you learn something. If you make 100 pieces of software(small) vs. the guy who spends 2 years making a large piece of software, your better off then the big guy. Why? 1. Your software is done for one and you have more products to sell with better success rate. 2. You learned several things about multiple concepts as apposed to one or two things in depth for one or two concepts.

So again why make a in house engine over premade? Well learning aspect. You can make small and simple engines easily as a posed to one giant "all in one" engine and come out on top. my own personal downside to my software I believe is art and GFX. But I my self have learned a lot self taught wise by making simple small projects. You could argue its not great but I'll argue its bug free and completed. As were a lot of people can't say that their project is 1. Bug free or 2. Completed. Completed in the sense it does what its designed to do and bug free/usable. Everything can be tweaked but you need a finished product before you "tweak" it. Otherwise you’re just fixing it.
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Lord Herakles the Great
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 08:08
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I've decided to go with UDK. It's been around for many years, so there's tons of resources and tutorials for it, it's extremely powerful, and it is well suited for the kinds of games I plan to make.

Formerly known as Housewares
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Thraxas
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 08:53
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Quote: " something else to consider is finishing the software period."


THIS. I can't count how many people start a new engine when they haven't competed a project with another. I'd say 9 times out of 10 if you didn't finish a project with one engine using another will yield the same results...no finished projects...

I'm a gameplay over graphics person... it can be made with ascii art and i'll play if the gameplay is good, and a game can look incredible and i won't play as the gameplay isn't there....

http://thraxocorp.webs.com/ Visit my totally awesome website: Thraxocorp. It's my own company and I'm totes the CEO.
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 28th Jan 2012 04:04
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Quote: "I'm a gameplay over graphics person... it can be made with ascii art and i'll play if the gameplay is good, and a game can look incredible and i won't play as the gameplay isn't there...."


Same here. A lot of my friends are "appalled" at STAR WARS: Empire At War's graphics. I for one, don't care - it's challenging, freaking awesome and fun, and engaging... plus, as a game "developer" my self (haven't really done any developing lately, actually ) I have more pitty on graphical items towards most games than my peers . In essence, I haven't been spoiled by the AAA game's graphics, as I haven't really played any.

I'm actually surprised by the number of UDK recommendations. The one time I downloaded and tried to install it, I got a "package corrupt" error. Interesting...

As a believer in Jesus Christ, I am trying to use my passion for game creation for His glory.
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Lord Herakles the Great
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Posted: 28th Jan 2012 05:49 Edited at: 28th Jan 2012 05:50
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Obviously it's better to have crappy graphics but awesome gameplay than awesome graphics but crappy gameplay. But it's even better to have awesome graphics AND awesome gameplay.

From what little I've done with UDK so far, I can definately say that I'm finding it surprisingly easy and fun to use. I'm not regretting my decision to switch to it one bit.

It's got more graphical power than I'll ever need, and it makes it not only possible but also actually FUN to make the kind of gameplay I want. It's exactly what I need.

Formerly known as Housewares
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MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Jan 2012 05:58
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Metal gear solid had crappy graphics... still does... (though ive not played anything beyond the first three)... but it had simply amazing gameplay mechanics...

I used to bicker about graphics... but (still think wow is shoddy and could be better...)... Now I think the mechanics are much more important as netbook and ULP platforms are more common these days... so down on graphics up on mechanics...
But I would still love to create something visually compelling one day...

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old_School
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Posted: 28th Jan 2012 18:33
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Quote: "Metal gear solid had crappy graphics... still does... "


Metal Gear first appeared on the NES before you were born. Metal Gear Solid was on the PS1 and was an amazing game with awsome GFX's. I have not seen nor did I know their was a newer version but Im sure its great as well. To be blunt/honest, the orginal for PS1 has better GFX's then most projects I see on here presently and that games over 10 years old.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Jan 2012 18:54
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I think for its time MGS had good graphics, but what I think MrV was getting at was that graphics aren't necessarily as important, as a game doesn't have to be amazing graphically to be good. MGS is pretty dated now and compares nothing to what can be achieved today. Yet, it's still more awesome than a lot of good looking games out there...from a subjective standpoint of course.

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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Jan 2012 23:06 Edited at: 28th Jan 2012 23:07
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I would not encourage you to make your own engine to try to compete with Unreal Odds are you won't finish and you could wake up 7 years later with nothing to show for it. Start slow when you're first learning

Quote: "You could argue its not great but I'll argue its bug free and completed."


There's no such thing as bug free when it comes to something the size and scope of a 3d game engine. It just doesn't happen.


Senior Developer - CBS Interactive Music Group
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old_School
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Posted: 29th Jan 2012 03:24
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Quote: "There's no such thing as bug free when it comes to something the size and scope of a 3d game engine. It just doesn't happen."


Valve
http://source.valvesoftware.com/

Its not perfect but pretty darn close
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Airslide
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Posted: 29th Jan 2012 22:01 Edited at: 29th Jan 2012 22:02
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You are going to try and argue that Source is bug free?
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 29th Jan 2012 23:01
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Oh, old school, you're quite the card.

Try running TF2 for longer than four hours without a HL2.exe crash error that kills the game dead.

What I found with UDK is that if you move from FPSC to it, you'll get along swimmingly. It's not that great a leap. In fact, given the amount of features and customisability UDK has in its UI, it's a little bit better than FPSC in its layout.

But those uninitiated to that kind of editor will definitely find it too hard to get to grips with at first.
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old_School
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Posted: 30th Jan 2012 00:40
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Quote: "You are going to try and argue that Source is bug free? "


Show me something better
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Indicium
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Posted: 30th Jan 2012 00:42
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Quote: "Show me something better"


Somebody obviously missed the point completely.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 30th Jan 2012 00:52
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*Le sigh.*

Source is as bug-ridden as any other commercial-level engine.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Jan 2012 01:29
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Quote: "Quote: "You are going to try and argue that Source is bug free? "

Show me something better"


TBH, in my experience, games made with Unreal have been more reliable. The only Unreal Exception is the XBox 360 version of The Last Remnant, but only because Square Enix did a half-assed job on the optimisation. PC version, runs really well. SE's fault, not Unreal's.

Source games, I've always found trouble with Counter Strike: Source, hence I don't played it. Half Life: Source runs well, Left4Dead had some problems with optimisation, I used to find on my old laptop it'd go really slow after a while although nothing seemed to have changed in terms of what has to be processed and the laptop wasn't overheating either. Half Life 2 & Portal, works well, though they seem to stutter at times, but nothing major. Portal 2, I had no problems with it on my 360.


However, I'm sure others have found Source to be more reliable...I think people's experiences differ. Source is a great engine, but I wouldn't exactly call it bug free. And in my experience there have been engines that run better, however, I couldn't actually name them because they were probably only programmed for the specific game.

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sovr
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Posted: 30th Jan 2012 06:09
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I tried making a game engine before in gdk... got as far as lights, ai, physics, terrain, saves and loads... but got stuck somewhere. My favorite game engine is UDK and unity both nice graphics and easy to use interface

sov the game creator!
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