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Geek Culture / web developer sentenced to death

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Phaelax
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2012 19:31
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http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/01/22/0354253/web-developer-sentenced-to-death-in-iran

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
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nonZero
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2012 21:11
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Just what I need before I hit the sack
What kind of sentence is that anyway? Punishing the guy in the first place is bad enough but a death sentence is insane!! And he was only 35 too! This is what happens when church and state are not separated and where there isn't even a semblance of democracy. I hope this story gets spread (gonna actually post the link on Facebook, for what its worth). Dunno if it'll do any good but at least it might raise awareness.

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budokaiman
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2012 21:31
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This happened to a game developer not too long ago in Iran too.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/01/us-born-game-developer-sentenced-to-death-in-iran.ars

I don't know what has happened since then in that case though. I find the case of the web developer a lot more surprising, because whatever he had been doing had little to nothing to do with Iranian politics.


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nonZero
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 09:30
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This is ridiculous! I hate to sound like a warmonger or to promote infringement on another country's sovereignty but the USA or the UN should send forces into Iran. What gives Iran the right to pass their version of justice on people who aren't even their citizens and whose "crime" was not committed on their soil? As far as I see it this is kidnapping and murder!

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Thraxas
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 09:56
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Quote: "This is ridiculous! I hate to sound like a warmonger or to promote infringement on another country's sovereignty but the USA or the UN should send forces into Iran. What gives Iran the right to pass their version of justice on people who aren't even their citizens and whose "crime" was not committed on their soil? As far as I see it this is kidnapping and murder!"


I guess it's no different from the US having a UK citizen extradited to America to answer for 'crimes' he committed. It's exactly the same, he was in the UK but apparently broke American laws even though he's never set foot in the country.

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nonZero
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 10:27
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Quote: "...he was in the UK but apparently broke American laws even though he's never set foot in the country."

That is ridiculous (and sad): America World Police. Dunno what's worse. Seems foreign citizens don't have rights and their own countries won't even protect them.

We really do live in a depressing world. It's no wonder people lock themselves away in books/games/movies/etc. Reality's sometimes just too cruel and insane to actually accept as 'reality'. *sighs* Trouble is it doesn't do the victims of the world's insanity any good

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Benjamin
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 12:27
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Quote: "insulting and desecrating the principles of Islam"


Amazing that blasphemy is still a punishable act in the 21st century.



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Zotoaster
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 12:28
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I think Thraxas is talking about that Scottish fellow (whose name I can't remember at the moment) who hacked into the Pentagon and looked up classified documents about aliens. I can at least see a reason for his extradition (though in my opinion he should get a medal for finding a flaw that someone much more sinister could have found).

This, though, is crazy. He just wrote some software, he couldn't predict the consequences, and yet he gets punished for them anyway. If Iran doesn't change something, it will remain in the bronze age for a long time (both in civil and technological terms).

It's a tricky situation though. I mean, yes, there are some horrible human rights violations, but how many people must die to invade yet another country, and what if it doesn't work and just causes retaliation (which is likely will)?

Oh well, welcome to Earth.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 12:33
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Quote: " it will remain in the bronze age for a long time (both in civil and technological terms)."


I think that's what they (those in power) want.


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Vent
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 12:37 Edited at: 24th Jan 2012 12:37
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Quote: "I guess it's no different from the US having a UK citizen extradited to America to answer for 'crimes' he committed. It's exactly the same, he was in the UK but apparently broke American laws even though he's never set foot in the country."


I got physically sick when I heard about this. I assume you're talking about Richard O'Dwyer?

Anyway, yes. The fact that religion still reigns over politics like this is disgusting.



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Thraxas
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 13:02
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Quote: "I think Thraxas is talking about that Scottish fellow (whose name I can't remember at the moment) who hacked into the Pentagon and looked up classified documents about aliens. "


Nope not that guy. But Richard O'Dwyer as Vent stated who: is a UK student who the US Justice Department has been seeking to extradite from the UK since May 2011 in relation to alleged copyright infringement on his website TVShack.net

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BatVink
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Posted: 24th Jan 2012 17:46
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O'Dwyer posted links to content on other sites. It makes you wonder what the real motive was, considering there are potentially thousands of US Citizens breaching the same copyright infringements (including Google who do not filter results) that don't need to go through the extradition process first!

Google have links to TVshack.net + others. Ergo, they are doing the same, but on a much larger scale.

I don't condone piracy in any way, but is this not like suing a supermarket because the cigarettes they sell are carcinogens?

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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 01:09
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Quote: "I guess it's no different from the US having a UK citizen extradited to America to answer for 'crimes' he committed"

Pretty sure we didn't give the death penalty.

Quote: "the USA or the UN should send forces into Iran."

Agreed, but there's a fine line in doing so. Technically, it's now our place to tell a society how their laws and punishments should work. On the other hand, we have a responsibility to uphold basic human rights if we have the power to do so. But we won't be going to iran anytime soon, afghanistan is current target. (i'll be there next year)

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 03:13
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It's completely different than the UK case. This web developer went to Iran and was arrested There was no extradition. If you're dumb enough to visit Iran nowadays, then you have to be careful that nothing you have done could be construed as against the law in their country. I'm not condoning the death penalty for the "crime" that he committed, but you can't plead ignorance when you visit another country and somehow break their law and get punished.

He would not have been extradited to Iran from any Western country. I was going to visit Iran a few years back before they had their protests, but I've since decided to wait until they get a proper government in place or until they stop jailing westerners for "spy" crimes.


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nonZero
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 08:16
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Quote: "(i'll be there next year)"

Good luck in that case.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 03:55
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Quote: "It's completely different than the UK case."


Yes the American justice system trying to convict someone who has never set foot on American soil is much worse. If I can be arrested for breaking laws when I have never been in said country to break it's laws is an unimaginable horror.

Quote: "On the other hand, we have a responsibility to uphold basic human rights if we have the power to do so."


You go to another country, you live (or die) by their justice system. Don't go to these countries, if you don't want to take the risk of falling foul to their laws.

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anayar
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 04:51
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What I want to know is how these people KNOW that this guys software was used on a porn site? Seems to me like someone in the goernment was watching some serious XXX cause if watching it is illegal there how else did they find out?

Cheers,
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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 04:59 Edited at: 26th Jan 2012 05:00
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Quote: "Yes the American justice system trying to convict someone who has never set foot on American soil is much worse. If I can be arrested for breaking laws when I have never been in said country to break it's laws is an unimaginable horror."


Death penalty trumps extradition and not receiving a death penalty in terms of "worst"

The American extradition kind of makes sense. If you are doing something illegal against a citizen of another country, and the country you are in has an extradition treaty with the other country, then it's your fault. This man broke the law, and last time I checked the UK and USA are on speaking terms.

If I were to sell drugs to American customers from Canada, and got busted, I should expect that Canada might extradite me to the USA. If only that worked for Nigerian scammers!


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Thraxas
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 06:05
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Well I personally don't believe that someone can break the laws of a country they have never visited. If it is not against the law in the U.K. then America should have no say, period. If it is against the law then he needs to answer to HIS countries legal system, how can you even entertain that extradition in this case is the right thing? Being sent to another country for breaking their laws regardless of where you were when you broke them is heinous.In my opinion that's worse than a death sentence because where does it end? It has set a very bad precident...world police indeed!

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 07:03 Edited at: 26th Jan 2012 07:03
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The law that was broken was against the foreign country's citizens, and AFAIK it was illegal in the person's host country. It's not a case of breaking an obscure law that only existed in the foreign country.


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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 07:20
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Quote: "Yes the American justice system trying to convict someone who has never set foot on American soil is much worse. If I can be arrested for breaking laws when I have never been in said country to break it's laws is an unimaginable horror."

What i want to know is, say i have sex with someone 15 (in germany) or 16 (in UK).
Am i considered a pedophile to the American law system, and what happens if i marry them, is our marriage annulled in usa?

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Thraxas
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 09:25
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Quote: "The law that was broken was against the foreign country's citizens, and AFAIK it was illegal in the person's host country. It's not a case of breaking an obscure law that only existed in the foreign country."


It shouldn't matter... you can't break a countries laws if you're not in that country, you can only break the laws of the country you are in... If I am in England and I shoot an American/African/Welsh/Chinese/Swedish tourist, I'm not committing a crime in any of those countries even though I have killed a citizen from that country, I have broken English laws and as such come under the English legal system. I fail to see how this is any different. I fail to see how it's anything to do with American law.

But we can agree to disagree

Quote: "What i want to know is, say i have sex with someone 15 (in germany) or 16 (in UK).
Am i considered a pedophile to the American law system, and what happens if i marry them, is our marriage annulled in usa?"


And morality etc. aside, this is exactly my point, American laws have no relevance to anywhere but America. As long as what you do is legal in the country you are in whether it is illegal in America is irrelevant. If it's illegal in the country you are in and illegal in America, it's still irrelevant to America and is not America's business to take you to trial and punish you, whether the 'crime' is against an american citizen or not. It's up to the country in which the crime is committed.

I would be calling this a travesty no matter what the instigating country was. I'm not picking on America.

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nonZero
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 14:03
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I have to agree with both sides here, but on different things.
Death Sentence is worse (Because dying pretty much sucks and it's rather final).
But as far as crimes go, I believe that you should only be convicted of (or even tried for) a crime that was committed on the soil of offended country.

A mature solution for "remote crimes" would be for the offended country to send a representative to the country of the offender and lay a charge there and let the offender's country's legal system take it from there. Of course there are probably a million holes in this and reasons why it wouldn't work legally but it seems a more fair compromise.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 14:36 Edited at: 26th Jan 2012 14:38
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I think it's a difficult one to be honest.

Whilst yes, you're committing a crime in your own country and generally you would only be bound by that country's laws and I can see what's being said in terms of what happens when you murder a tourist, but I don't think that's a good analogy.

The trouble with the internet is it's possible to commit crimes on foreign soil without physically being there, as servers may be based in a specific country and as far as I understand the server and its users are held to the account of the country's laws. For example, the YouTube Viacom incident wasn't a breach of UK Data Protection laws, even though many users are British. YouTube servers are US based and it's their laws that are being held to effect.

However, I believe it should be the duty of the government to protect the rights of its citizens, of course a person shouldn't be free to commit crimes and they shouldn't free to do it on foreign soil even if it's through the internet. That's why it's a difficult one because foreign laws can be unjust, as this thread shows. I think there should be some level of negotiation - ideally the criminal should be tried by their own country's laws.

If somebody were to upload pornography to an Iranian server, I suspect it'd be an offence they'd punish with death. We wouldn't just send the offending person to face that country's charges.

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Quik
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 15:32
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You shouldnt have to be judged, in a foreign country, if you have only commited crimes there from a distance, if they want to catch you, then they have to have the trial in your country..

imo =P

now on this topic: what did this web designer actually do?


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Norion
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 17:44
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I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 27th Jan 2012 14:55 Edited at: 27th Jan 2012 14:56
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Quote: "then they have to have the trial in your country.."


If you commit a crime against the US and then visit your grandma in the US, yes, you could be arrested and tried here. That's true for *any* country. Why anyone would visit iran in it's current state is beyond me.


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nonZero
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Posted: 27th Jan 2012 15:55
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Quote: "Why anyone would visit iran in it's current state is beyond me."

Must say, I have to agree. Unless I had relatives there and no way of seeing them other than going (and they really had to see me like life or death) or I was sent there on an assignment, I'd rather smash a beehive or a wasp nest than go near Iran. Actually, after everything I've seen and heard, I think even if I had an assignment, I'd rather loose out on the paycheck than my life.

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Quik
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Posted: 27th Jan 2012 17:01 Edited at: 27th Jan 2012 17:40
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Quote: "If you commit a crime against the US and then visit your grandma in the US, yes, you could be arrested and tried here."


But if i dont have any grandma in there, nor plan on going there? =P


actually: nevermind about that, just understtod your point xD


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 27th Jan 2012 17:07
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Iran seems to be a perpetual pain in the neck. When I was at school we had some Iranian friends - and they constantly worried that the Shah's secret police would find them. Some things don't change it seems.

@Phaelax

I puzzled for a while over this statement of yours:

Quote: "Agreed, but there's a fine line in doing so. Technically, it's now our place to tell a society how their laws and punishments should work. On the other hand, we have a responsibility to uphold basic human rights if we have the power to do so."


but eventually decided you meant to say " ... it's not our place ...".

I'm worried by the fact that no-one has picked you up on that. Or have I missed something? Perhaps they agreed with your statement.
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 28th Jan 2012 04:21
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I haven't read the article, but would copyright laws have anything to do with the U.S. trying to extradite a criminal? Iran handing out the death penalty is no surprise, it seems (to me personally) that they hand it out like candy .

@Green Gandalf:

I was puzzled as well, but didn't think of what you came up with:

[/quote]but eventually decided you meant to say " ... it's not our place ...".[/quote]

And as for the statement itself, it really depends. If we're trying to tell the English how to drink their tea, I think there's a problem there, but if were trying to tell the Iranians to respect humans rights, I think that's fine. That also depends on what human rights includes as a "right" as well... but let's not go down there.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 28th Jan 2012 16:39
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Quote: "but eventually decided you meant to say " ... it's not our place ..."."

correct, I made a typo.

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
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