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Geek Culture / Homemade Engine?

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old_School
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 20:14 Edited at: 25th Jan 2012 20:15
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Just throwing this idea out their but what do you guys think of a "homemade engine" contest. Basically to see who can make the best homemade engine. You could use any language you wanted but the engine must be made open source of course for display and must be 100% your original work. Just a idea. If you guys like the idea, I might throw together a little contest with prizes of course.
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heyufool1
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 20:18 Edited at: 25th Jan 2012 20:18
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Not a bad idea but it is a ton of work and until you get into the in depth things of the engine (Shaders, physics, AI, etc.) there really won't be much different among the entries. I think a better way to go about this is to write a part of an already existing engine as a competition, like write the best path finding engine using any language. That way you can really focus on one thing and can judge the entries easier.

"So hold your head up high and know. It's not the end of the road"

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the_winch
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 20:26
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Not exactly the most exciting subject for a competition. A game engine isn't really something that has an end result you can show off.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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TheComet
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 21:16 Edited at: 25th Jan 2012 21:16
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Quote: "Homemade Engine"




TheComet


Timeplan : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmuAKJolqASndEVYOWMxb3l2OWV0UkV1anRSczZScHc
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 21:23 Edited at: 25th Jan 2012 21:24
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Would it be an engine from scratch then? Because I think that would take a lot of work, even if you're using the Direct X SDK.

If higher level than that, throw in SDKs and tools like DBP/AGK/Blitz3D and you might find it more likely for somebody to come up with something, it's still plenty of work and as said probably not the most exciting thing to show off.

However, I like that you want to create a challenge, particularly as you're probably challenge yourself, personally I'd probably opt out because I've just done NaGaCreMo and find it pointless to start a new project. But if you can find something people will be interested in then more power to you.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 21:28
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Why would the engine need to be open source?
Surely if you ask people to spend a good few months writing an engine, you can't expect them to release their work for free.
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 21:36
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Quote: "Just throwing this idea out their but what do you guys think of a "homemade engine" contest."


and what exactly would said engine need to do ?


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RalphY
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 22:02 Edited at: 25th Jan 2012 22:04
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Whilst it's a nice idea I agree it might be better to narrow the scope somewhat. For one it's going to be hard to judge, how do you rate one engine better than another when they could be aimed at two completely different genres?

I also doubt you would get many entries. If you look at the types of games that get entered into competitions around here they are generally ones that don't require a separation between the engine and the game. Building a complete (general purpose) engine is a lot of work - resource management, renderer, collision detection and resolution, animation, audio, scripting system, front end systems.

I have to agree with heyufool1 here, maybe pick one sub-system and focus on that?

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 25th Jan 2012 22:14
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It might be more interesting (and useful) if the contest was to program (in a specific language instead of any language, probably DBP since its on these boards) a specific aspect of an engine.

But then have multiple contests each one challenging the contestants to program a new part of the engine that will be attached to the existing source.

Youd have to start off with a competition that handles the basic core functionality, things like resource handling, player instantiation, player control, collision detection, etc.

The next contest might involve implementing a weapons engine that dynamically created weapons from script files for use in the game.

Then you might move on to physics, then animation, then GUI elements, etc.

The idea being that every time a new contest comes out, the programmers must make their entry completely work with the existing source that has been created so far, resulting in a complete, open source engine when all of the competitions are over.

This might be the missing ingredient that has always caused people to steer clear of contributing to an open source engine, as the resounding feeling is usually "Why bother helping someone else for free?". Contest adds reason, which I think might attract a lot more people.

Thinking about the language of choice, I think DBP might not be the best option actually. Youd be better off going with something like Objective C and OpenGL, as youll find far more experienced programmers this way (assuming you advertise the competition on multiple programming forums / sites) and you'll avoid the rather large "noob" base that DBP tends to have on these forums. Who really wants to sit through 200 engines that all load a cube and move it around with the arrow keys, right?

Obviously setting up a dedicated website for the competition would help too, along with making a clear statement on the site that all source developed during the competition will be free / open source forever.
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old_School
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 01:33
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Well obviously people like the idea lol. So let me attempt to answer some questions.

Q: What type of engine?
A: Any type of engine would be neat to see created. Physic would like take you a long time of course but in the end it would be up to the developer how much time they would want to invest into it. The idea of time management should be considered before choosing the type of engine you would prefer to build.

Q: Why Open Source:
A.: It would be an open community engine that should be viewable for all to see and learn from your concept.

Q: From scratch?
A: Yes, an engine can be created in a fairly short period of time. Just remember to preplan wisely and keep your project organized.

Q: Language
A: Most of us have vast knowledge in various programming languages. To say hey you can only write code in language X is really limiting people’s ability to be creative. Every language offers something special other languages can not provide.

Q: Where will the source be stored?
A: Well TGC would be a good place to store it but open source means any one would be free to grab it and display it freely any where in the world. I’m not the internet police so I can’t say it would not show up in other places if the engine was good. The whole point behind the code is to also educate people so I’m sure the source codes would travel beyond TGC.

Project Guidelines & Rules:

Your code will be graded on some basic guidelines:

1. Does it work
2. Did you take the time to comment your code
3. Did you optimize your code
4. How complex is your code
5. Can you explain your code & How well can you explain your code
6. How original is your idea
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heyufool1
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 04:18 Edited at: 26th Jan 2012 04:19
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Quote: "How complex is your code"

I don't know how you plan on judging this, but I hope you mean that the simpler coded engine would receive a higher score (assuming the different engines accomplish the same tasks).

What I mean is something like:


Would be better than:


Also, how can a game engine be "original" or are you referring to our techniques in solving various problems?

"So hold your head up high and know. It's not the end of the road"

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MrValentine
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 08:04 Edited at: 26th Jan 2012 08:05
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Interesting Idea... I avree with Modular bits... and actually why not use the modular concept and run challenged for each section at the same time...

If that makes sense... anyway heres my entry...



As.you can see my code is both commented and simplified... can I get the first prize

(sorry just trying to cheer myself up and hopefully others but my first message is the main message here...)

EDIT

Forgot to say TheComet... Nice find there... I have seen better attempts than that but on smaller scale...

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old_School
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Posted: 26th Jan 2012 19:18
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I would say about 50% of the judgment would be the programmers logic. Most of us can tell good logical code from poorly written logical code. The best way I’ve found to judge a programmers worth is by reviewing their code and then questioning them about the code. A good programmer should be able to explain his logical concept in depth with a good documentation or at least be able to explain it verbally. This will also prove as well that your code is 100% original and not you stealing or barrowing code from another project.

The point of the project of course is for fun, learning and bragging rights of course. however, the ultimate goal should be o challenge your self and learn from others. Everyone has their own unique ideas on how certain things should be created. I find it very interesting personally to hear and see others concepts code wise. I personally always learn something new and get inspired when I discuss concepts with other talented programmers. Of course this would still be volunteer as well. but I think it would also benefit a lot of people including those who did not join in. At least they might become inspired and learn something as well from your concept.
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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jan 2012 05:16
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Let's be honest here; only a small handful of people here have actually made their own engine from scratch (less than 5 that I can think of, myself definitely not included). I would be interested in this competition if the judges actually had experience in doing such a thing. No offense, but I honestly can't see someone who isn't fluent in a low-level language to be able to judge and critique game engine code.

I would consider if someone like Lee Bamber, Kevin Picone, or Josh Klint were judging my code.


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old_School
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Posted: 27th Jan 2012 06:55
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Sorry I’m not going to comment on the above statement. That just sounds so conceded and disrespectful to so many on so many levels. So again this project is for fun and educational purpose. If you’re afraid of someone to judge your code, I’m sorry you may want to consider another profession. I personally welcome and enjoy hearing people’s feedback about my code. I also learn something every time I display it on the MSDN with others. I also find that it’s good to hear constructive feedback from both experienced coders as well as beginners. Well written code should be optimized and organized well enough even the most novice programmer can understand it. Just my thoughts on how code should be constructed.
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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jan 2012 07:20 Edited at: 27th Jan 2012 07:21
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Quote: " If you’re afraid of someone to judge your code, I’m sorry you may want to consider another profession."


I'm not afraid of anyone judging my code. What I'm worried about is someone with no engine experience critiquing and judging other people's engine code. Would you trust a non-mechanic to judge how a jet engine was put together, or would you trust a jet engine engineer to evaluate your jet engine?

Quote: "Well written code should be optimized and organized well enough even the most novice programmer can understand it."


I'm not talking about understanding it. Don't be so sensitive I'm talking about someone actually being able to properly judge your code with all the requirements you've stated above. Do you honestly think you could look at John Carmack's source code and give him critiques? I'm not at all saying other people here can't code. I'm talking about the judges.


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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Jan 2012 08:48 Edited at: 27th Jan 2012 20:31
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Quote: "I'm not at all saying other people here can't code. I'm talking about the judges. "


Dude my thoughts exactly. Maybe someone a little more qualified on game engines and programming in general should be hosting something like this.

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old_School
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Posted: 30th Jan 2012 00:28 Edited at: 30th Jan 2012 00:37
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Quote: "Dude my thoughts exactly. Maybe someone a little more qualified on game engines and programming in general should be hosting something like this."



Sorry did not know there were requirements for hosting a fun event. Could someone please point out the "rules" of fun events and requirements? Maybe we should ask the MSDN what the requirements are for a "qualified programmer" who is "qualified" to judge and host education/for fun events. Maybe Bill Gates is available to judge. Why were asking Gates, lets go dig up Steve Jobs, reanimate his corpse and have him judge the event.

Point is this is for fun, open source and educational. Juding others work is strickly for fun, to "deem a winner" and discuss your concept/project freely. However, every time you finish a project your allready a winner. the main goal for any programer should be to complete your project(s).
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Jan 2012 01:07
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Nobody said there were rules like that. It's about encouraging people to participate.

You're asking people to make an engine, you've not specified what you have in mind, you're talking about a very large topic. Are you looking at people developing a game engine with shaders, physics, scripting and an editor? Or are you looking at a simple text adventure engine with scripting? What I'm talking about is the difference between writing a novel and a short story.

If the former is more in your mind, you will need something a little more serious to encourage people. Serious means people we know who can judge fairly, therefore, somebody who's qualified to do it. I mean the Karate competitions I entered weren't judged by 6th Kyus on the grounds that they 'know Karate', or the Storytelling competition wasn't judged by the local drunkard because he could tell stories.

The latter end of the scale is probably not all that exciting to show off and is probably less challenging. Perhaps give us a better idea.

If you're just having a comp just for 'fun' you might want something a little more small scale? ESPECIALLY if you're expecting it to be open source.

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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 05:29
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@old_School -
Quote: "Maybe Bill Gates is available to judge. Why were asking Gates, lets go dig up Steve Jobs, reanimate his corpse and have him judge the event."


Do you really want to be a jerk about it? You can't take even a suggestion, let alone a criticism, and you want people here to take you seriously?


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ionstream
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 08:54
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Old_school, every time you make a new thread, I have a legitimate fear that someone is going to accidentally take you seriously and waste their time. If it wouldn't be considered spam, I'd post a link to all your previous threads in every new thread you make, along with the Stick Dancer video, just so that people are able to know what you're really about and move on. It is you who should be interested in learning, not teaching or judging.

Quote: "Maybe Bill Gates is available to judge. Why were asking Gates, lets go dig up Steve Jobs, reanimate his corpse and have him judge the event. "


Oh good, more credibility for you.

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Indicium
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 15:20
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I doubt Bill Gates nor Steve Jobs has an in depth knowledge of modern 3D game engines, considering neither of their companies really specialise in game development.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 15:25
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Steve maybe not...

But you would be wrong about Bill...

He was highly engaged in XBOX development and played games as must as he could... so perhaps yes he could...

Steve on the otherhand has Pixar no?... so maybe he could but then only Bill had a games studio/games development firm... Age Of Empires anybody?

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Indicium
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 16:01
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Quote: "He was highly engaged in XBOX development"


Ah, I didn't know that. I assumed he just set his monkeys to work.

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