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Geek Culture / Indie developer screwed

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TheComet
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Posted: 20th Mar 2012 22:03
Hey all


Old news, I know, but I only really just found out about it now: http://www.gamerwok.com/main/2009/10/22/why-the-history-of-platypus-should-be-taught-in-school.html

As game developers, I think we can all learn something here. I don't know what Anthony Flack does these days, but he was seriously screwed back in 2002, and never profited off his amazing work.

I played the game as a kid, and only just recently played it again. It's sad to see such an innovative guy do a nose dive like that.

Discuss.

TheComet

zeroSlave
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Posted: 20th Mar 2012 22:41
Good find, I never knew about Anthony Flack, but it was a good read.

It is crummy, but I wonder what the original contract stated. I've been contracted for work that has a reoccurring revenue, but it was stated in the contract that I would receive no royalties. I wonder if his said the same, or if he was going to get them and just lost all rights to royalties when it was sold.

If the former, he should have read the contract better. If the latter, I'm no lawyer, but I would think he could have sued the original company.

Either way, it sucks and is something that every indie dev should know about.

s4real
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Posted: 20th Mar 2012 22:59
At the end of the day he signed the contract for $2,000.00.

He should of read the contract better he didn't get screwed over he wanted the $2,000.00 what was a lot of money for him at the time.

Always make sure to get a lawyer to read any contract before signing on the dotted line.

best s4real


Pack ya games with vishnu packer its free. Vishnu game launcher is now released.
tiresius
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Posted: 20th Mar 2012 23:08
Anthony Flack is still working on Cletus Clay.
http://www.cletusclay.com/

And I'm sure he now has a lawyer to check his contracts.


A 3D marble platformer using Newton physics.
TheComet
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Posted: 20th Mar 2012 23:10 Edited at: 20th Mar 2012 23:11
Yeah, I guess "contract is contract"...

He was a fool to sell the entire project for only $2000. He should have at least made a deal like "I want 30% of the generated income", and requested $1000 up front. I wonder if Mike Boeh would have still recognised Platypus if Anthony made such a deal?

EDIT: Good find, it's comforting to know that his life isn't totally ruined.

TheComet

swissolo
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Posted: 20th Mar 2012 23:19 Edited at: 20th Mar 2012 23:25
I haven't read yet, but when I clicked that link and saw Platypus I was in shock. I loved that game so much. First played it off of one of those demo discs that came with gaming magazines. I couldn't resist buying it (and I'm a hard one to get money out of) I can't believe that money went to no good. Reading on...

Edit: That was bad, but I'd surely take that over a few pennies and little success. The game sure has gotten around. I'll never forget it! (Especially now )

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maho76
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Posted: 21st Mar 2012 11:38 Edited at: 21st Mar 2012 11:40
sorry to say, but if you are stupid enough to miss some sort of tantieme in whatever you produce for publishing, its your own fault. no need to cry if the publisher make most effective profit out of HIS product (its not yours anymore if you sold it for fixprize). so no mercy with this guy, except he was a 15yo and his parents would have sold his software, wich isnt the case here.

not screwed, but selfowned with a facepalm.

justmy2cents

Van B
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Posted: 21st Mar 2012 12:38
Back then, Idigicon would publish anything the Blitz community could throw at them, and they claimed this for bragging rights at every opportunity. I even argued this point over at blitzcoder, their dodgy little publisher and bargain bin games are nothing to brag about.

This kinda prooves it, if you sell your soul for a couple of bucks, then don't be surprised when your not entitled to karma. I'm not sure what people should learn from this, other than if your trying to be an indi developer and trying to make money, then just don't. You need a home, and food, and if you have to get a real job then that is life. Nobody should try and profit from a game the didn't write yet, not if it's their own IP, it's downright retarded to sell the rights for £2000, then complain when the person who buys those rights again doesn't feel the need to pay again. It's not like people are downloading his game, or playing his game on their PSP, his game was reworked. Really back then that was probably an ok deal - he's bitter because the game didn't fly off the shelves like his blitzcoder cohorts promised.

If you believe in your game idea, and need some money - go get a job!
Very few people can actually develop games on their own as a full time job with real pay, because you can't work for 18 months with no funding, you can't put life on hold for 2 years while you try and finish a game so you can eat. I mean, does anyone here think that it should have taken so long to even finish it?, even with all that plasticine modelling - I mean come on!
I think programmers are as fast and loose with deadlines as they are with money - wow if I live on Ramen noodles that $2000 will last me 4 years, if I write the game in 18 months then the rest of that is all profit - just as long as nothing bad happens, like a fire, or malnutrition. If you want to make games, then that's good because making games is an excellent and rewarding hobby - people can make money with this hobby, and a few people can even make it their job, but you have to get there first - publishers have you at a disadvantage when your developing your game if you don't have backup - really the struggling artist look is so 20 years ago ~

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
David R
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Posted: 21st Mar 2012 14:24 Edited at: 21st Mar 2012 14:33
Quote: "Since he didn't seem to have adequate insurance, Anthony not only had to rebuild a home, but an office and equipment to finish the game"


Let me get this straight... his building was not insured for fire damage, nor any of his possessions, and then he signs a contract for a measly amount of money obviously without understanding it or having a lawyer/solicitor run over it?

It's obviously a sucky outcome but it seems he did basically everything in his power to screw himself over / he seems incredibly naive.

Quote: " mean, does anyone here think that it should have taken so long to even finish it?, even with all that plasticine modelling - I mean come on!"


I haven't played the game, but if all the plasticine stuff is fully animated rather than static, even if he shot them in twos (~12fps) it would take a very long time to get it right - doing both the animation and development + polish on top the timespans mentioned don't seem unreasonable to be honest

Quote: "people can make money with this hobby, and a few people can even make it their job, but you have to get there first - publishers have you at a disadvantage when your developing your game if you don't have backup - really the struggling artist look is so 20 years ago"


Agreed, especially with the 'having to get there first'. A lot of people I know are planning to graduate and get straight into "full indie" (or the equivalent for just freelance SW development) which I think is insane - I wouldn't want to take such a massive risk upon whatever game I would make (what if it sucks?). Instead I've got a job lined up and I'm doing games on the side. Taking it more seriously, but still working on them on the side instead of full time

The way I see it is that doing it on the side with a job is basically zero risk - either your game is decent and you can sell it and maybe go 'full indie' later, or the game is rubbish and you still have a job to fall back on. Although I'm under no illusions of it being easy/plain sailing, from a financial PoV it's a pretty ideal situation. The main thing I'm worried about is more the development cycle being a waste of my time rather than money

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Van B
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Posted: 21st Mar 2012 15:04
I don't think there is that much animation in Platypus, except the effects like explosions - its mostly static models photographed from verying angles. If it was a heavily animated game, like say a plasticine version of SuperMario - then I could certainly understand the timescale. It shouldn't take so long to make the models for Platypus, they look great, the whole game looks great, but I don't think there's enough there to justify 18 months.

I'd say, that anyone planning on becoming an indi developer full time should have 2 years salary in the bank before they even consider it... indi's have to support themselves for the whole development cycle. I for one am sick to death of Kickstarter projects, pleading for money to produce something that will make them money, but they want the money first to fund the game - that's not independance!. It's better to put in the work and try and make that money first, there's less risk, and if you can do it once, doing it again should be easier. Indi's have it pretty rough, we don't get enough credit, most people don't have a clue what they're talking about when they critisize us, or praise us, or ask why we aren't Notch. We have to compete with all levels of the market, and no other market is like that. We don't expect local bands to produce albums as succesful as Radiohead. We don't slag off someones wedding video because it doesn't star Hugh Grant. It seems that the more complex and challenging the hobby, the less respect you get for it .

Now that I've said it though - damn I would like to see a claymation Mario game

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 21st Mar 2012 16:05 Edited at: 21st Mar 2012 16:47
Sounds like a pretty painful but all too familiar ordeal to me.

TheComet
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Posted: 21st Mar 2012 16:09
There is a fair amount of animation in the game. It's true that most of the enemies are static, but they look more and more damanged the more you shoot them. Also, the enemies are hardly the majority of clay in the game. Look at the landscape and scenery for instance. Again, there is little animation (besides waterfalls, volcanoes, towers, etc.), but that must have taken forever to do IMO.

If I think about my own large projects, 18 months of intensive programming would be enough to finish one of them, but I don't think I could manage animating 12 characters alongside it.

TheComet

Van B
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Posted: 21st Mar 2012 16:30
Damaged plasticine is pretty easy though, just have at it with a pencil

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
MrValentine
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2012 05:28
its sad though that the company does not even credit him I guess...

but thats copyright law for you...

OWN it or let it OWN you

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2012 05:36
Quote: "OWN it or let it OWN you"
My new phrase for the next .555567 days.

Copyrightz © 2012 dbd79
MrValentine
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2012 06:10
hehehehe loving that decimal point there DBD79 XD

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2012 07:49 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2012 07:49
[i][/i]

Copyrightz © 2012 dbd79
Anthony Flack
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 14:40
Somebody just linked me to this thread, so I'll see if I can shed some additional light on the situation (although it's all a very long time ago now).

Everybody who has pointed out that I was hopelessly naive - you are dead right. But you have to remember what the indie scene was like back in 2001: basically, there wasn't one to any established degree. This was before downloadable games of any sort had really taken off. I had never made any games before, so I had no track record at all, and I saw this as a foot in the door. I grossly, grossly underestimated how long it would take to finish, but I didn't want to do too shoddy a job because I was hoping it would lead to better things.

That's it, really. I knew it was a crummy deal but I saw it as a stepping stone and I thought that I would soon be making more games. It's all a learning experience, for sure.

The most disappointing thing was that after it was done, Idigicon offered me a similarly poor deal for the next game (which I politely declined), and commissioned a sequel (and numerous ports, including a PSP port with extra levels) without making any attempt to involve me. Which is a shame, because I would have liked to have had the chance to improve on the original and would have happily done so for a fair cut. As it was, the new content all came out pretty poorly I thought, especially the graphics since nobody seemed to be able to match my style, and a lot of the "new" graphics were just the old ones given a quick tweak in Photoshop.

It was disappointing to see the game being degraded over time rather than improving. Especially since I felt that my own technique had already improved a lot since the original game was made, and I could easily have supplied them with some nice new artwork. So in the end everybody loses, really.

What has happened since? Plenty... I got married, had a kid, got divorced, had a career as a teacher for a while, and of course invested massive amounts of time and energy into Cletus Clay, a multi-stage catastrophe of epic proportions which is a story for another day.

Cletus has been shelved for the last couple of years, since we don't have the money to finish it, but there is a massive amount of content sitting there waiting for us to come back to, which we still would like to do. We're currently working on a much less ambitious iOS game using the Cletus characters (as a small project to kick things off again). I also have been doing some contract work for other developers - I worked on the iOS port of Eufloria and I'm currently doing some art and level design for Voxatron. Besides the contract work I'm currently supporting myself as a semi-professional musician.

I'm really not a tragic figure at all, although I haven't released any of my own games for ages and ages, and that's something I'm hoping to rectify very soon.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 18:47
Thank you for coming here and sharing that. I hope your future endeavours work out for you, I think your experience works as a cautionary tale for others hoping to kick start their world of independent game development and should serve as a warning of what signing a contract could mean.

Of course, these days the market is a lot bigger for it, so you never know what may happen, I certainly would be interested in see what you come up with in the future.

tiresius
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 19:06
Thanks for coming here and sharing! I hope you get Cletus Clay off the ground I'm sad to hear it is on hiatus for now. Perhaps look into kickstarter, since your name is known in the gaming community and you have a following it might work out.

What language is the iOS game in, and do you program or mostly do the art work?


A 3D marble platformer using Newton physics.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 19:14 Edited at: 5th Jun 2012 19:17
It's funny on the internet you can talk about a complete stranger, and they end up in your room!

KeithC
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 19:18
Appreciate the personal insight and the update, Anthony.

-Keith

Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 20:00 Edited at: 5th Jun 2012 20:03
Muahahaha the plan was successful, now that we have lured him in he shall never escape!

I was about to earn some kudos for finding this video:

So thanks a bunch Anthony for trumping me with your actual presence!

I really like the clay look, it has a nice bohemian feel to it, like Little Big Planet only more so.

TheComet
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 20:42
Anthony Flack, thank you for taking the time to actually create an account and update us all in this thread. I can assure you that my jaw dropped when I read your name!

I'm glad to hear that everything is going well with you.

I'll agree with you that Platypus' sequel and the various ports just didn't have that beautiful touch you so masterfully accomplished in the original. That is kind of tragic when you see a game you created get slapped in the face.

Cletus Clay looks amazing, you must finish it and consider adding it to a humble bundle or something.

Thanks for making my childhood so much more sweeter, you won't be forgotten.

TheComet

rolfy
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 23:13
No one is to know if a game will be successful or not, until its released. I can understand your position at the time, you were not to know if it would sell, the game might never have been released at all if you hadn't sold it on (I dont think it would ever have been released if you hadnt turned over to them), therefore achieving nothing anyway and you wouldn't have been 2000 richer for it either..
You weren't ripped off till it made good sales up to that point you were just a guy trying to get it out there and I myself admit I might be tempted by a couple of grand to get something sold that would otherwise make me nothing.
You should still have had a lawyer check out that contract at the time you may have found you still retained some IP and entitled to either go with a different publisher for sequels or forced them to involve you in some way.
I am surprised you didnt piggy back on the success of this and follow up with something entirely yours, at the least you could easily have attracted interest from other publishing companies.

I think your problem is a lack of business ambition and your going to be like that being more involved in the design and art side of things. Find yourself a good and trusted friend with business acumen and let them sell your ideas, I don't think there's such a thing as an agent in the games industry but sure could use it for independent developers.

Awesome! Its one of those threads.
Nomad Soul
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 23:28
Forget publishers they will never give you a good deal.

Develop a mobile game and throw it onto the IOS and Android market place. You are more likely to make money there if the game is a success.

You shouldn't really need a publisher these days. There are so many ways of getting your game to the masses. Look at what happened with Doom in the early 90's and that was with dial up and message boards.

Its only advertising which you need to worry about outside of getting the game done and figuring out which distribution channel to go with.

nonZero
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Posted: 6th Jun 2012 00:01
Firstly, thanks for sharing Anthony.

This type of thing is too common (not just with games & software). I've been scammed too. I don't blame the artist (the first time round at least ), I blame the conartist at the top. It's easy to take advantage of a person's trust or desperation. It's amazing but whenever I read articles like this, I think to myself, "Well if I was head of that company, I would've given the guy a cut even though I had no legal obligation to!!" before thumping my chest, all pumped up with self-righteousness. But at the end of the day, I'm the one sitting in a room that doesn't belong to me and "The Man" is driving his new BMW home after a quick fling with the mistress. Am I a loser because I'm not a shark? Short answer is yes. But am I okay with that? Yeah, actually I am totally at peace. I'd rather have good list of accomplishments when I die than 7-digit bank balance... But don't get me wrong, a few bucks extra in my wallet is always nice (and I still "make problems go away" for those who can afford my services)


Quote: "You shouldn't really need a publisher these days."

Couldn't agree more. The "middlemen" are a relic of the "old days".

Fallout
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Posted: 6th Jun 2012 00:31
Sorry to hear about Anthony's tale. It's a good lesson for us all to learn. Never have blind faith that the other party will make the right call, or do the right thing by you in the end. They probably won't.

I've read everyone's thoughts on the right way to be an indie. I think there are several methods, and you have to find the one that works for you.

After Uni
I actually think graduating and having a bash at being an indie is a good time to do it. If you move back home with your parents after uni and they're willing to support you, it's a perfect opportunity. No financial responsibility. It's the only time in your life you'll be free full time and not be tied down with financial commitments (unless you go to prison! ). You can use the "gap year" excuse to employers if you need to get a job in the end, and that'll be fine. The only problem is, will you be mature enough to commit to full time self motivated work? 90% of people won't imo. I tried it. I wasn't!

In Your Spare Time
The idea you can create a killer game in your spare time around a full time job is a bit of a pipe dream to me. It's just so much of an undertaking to work all day, then all night. A few hours during the week and then a day at the weekend is not enough to make anything other than a simple PC or mobile game. You may get lucky and hit upon that formula that succeeds even though you hardly put any time in, but to really have a good chance, you need to put in a lot of work/content/awesomeness into your game, and for that you need a lot of time and effort.

I don't believe this is possible while working. Again .. I tried! Perhaps if you have no other hobbies, no friends/social life and unwavering determination, it's possible, but for 99% of humans, I don't think it'll work.

Save Up
So the other idea is that you can save up loads of money in employment, quit your job and do it full time. This is a more realistic solution in terms of having realistic resources/time to do it, but it's still highly unlikely. I don't know anybody who could save enough money to support themselves, pay the mortgage etc. for 2 years without working. The really well paid may be able to, but I think they're less likely to want to. If you're earning £100k/year, but living in a modest house, do you really want to give up your £40k of disposable income and your good job on a high risk job which will never make you as much money (unless you're extremely lucky). I just can't see anyone ever doing this realistically.

Get Sponsored
If you're really lucky, and someone believes in your game, or you manage to convince people on KickStarter that your game is worth paying for, maybe you can get some finance. But can you get enough? And are you still willing to quit your job and risk it all on your game idea that may not come to anything? I think this is a more realistic scenario than the "save up for 2 years" one. Perhaps you can combine the two, save up some, get some sponsorship (in exchange for a percentage cut), and maybe some kickstarter money too. Then you may be able to survive for a year while developing, but the risk is still great if you leave a good job.

Marry Someone Rich
The last solution is to shack up with someone who can support you while you work on your business. Dream scenario! Aim for this!


As for the making money from mobile games method, I wouldn't rely on that either. To be really successful in that, you still have to put in a massive amount of hours to make a game that stands out and has quality. Perhaps you have more chance of doing this in your spare time than a PC title for example, but that's still a really tall order!

Anyway, that's my rant done. I personally think after graduating while living in your parents basement is the only realistic scenario for becoming a full time indie.

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jun 2012 20:59
@Fallout

You missed out 1 scenario.

Join a small team of like minded indie developers and create something that doesn't require you to be fully responsible for every aspect of the game.

Sure that means splitting up the profits but 20% of something is better than 100% of nothing. You will also still gain valuable experience and a published game to your credentials.

I work on my games mostly by myself but I'm fortunate to have made some good contacts in other countries that give me invaluable help.

Also tool. Invest what little money you do have in purchasing good tools to make your life that little bit easier.

I will be publishing a mobile game demo soon. It will probably be free as its only a demo at this stage but I've been able to develop this myself in my spare time and I have a full time job.

Fallout
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Posted: 6th Jun 2012 21:46 Edited at: 6th Jun 2012 21:48
Teams are definitely a good solution, but they seem to fail 9 times out of 10. The more people, the more likely someone will lose interest/time/opportunity, and then it gets even more difficult. If you can find a good team of dedicated indies, then that's an awesome way of putting games together, but in my experience you're the only person you can truly rely on.

People have let me down and I've let people down in the past too. I think if you're gonna work in a team, you need that one person at the centre of it all, acting as the driving force. If someone does drop out, they'll always stick at it and have the skills to see it through. If you join a team with a lot of weaknesses in your skill set, you won't make it if someone leaves.

Good luck with your games btw!

Fallout3fan
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 02:53 Edited at: 7th Jun 2012 02:54
I hope I don't screw myself over like Anthony when I start to make my game Beyond the Ordinary. But the chances are it won't happen because my game isn't going to be that interesting to attract an audience like myself and I'm not that interesting as well to have others interested in my work. So no chances of having a game company come in and steal it. I wish I could have a broad audience but I will barely have any likes on Youtube that will be interested in the game or anyone replying on my thread.

Pessimistic I see it instead of optimistic. But it will be good to start on it as of now. None of you all have my mind or have seen my game so I guess it will be difficult to reply to what I've said.

I guess to get on topic with this thread as of now, I like Cletus Clay it looks kind of interesting. I like of how it is a game made out of clay. I hope it gets on Mac, PC, and Xbox Live Arcade.

_!!!!_
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mr Handy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2012 18:02
I don't understand the last part of article:

Quote: "Whether you are writing a small blog, publishing your own online story, chatting with friends via Facebook, Twitter and other social media, you are in fact creating your own IP. In some circles of the internet, it is even regarded as the new currency. While the traditional businesses and corporations are still slowly trying to understand what this means to their own branding, you cannot afford that luxury. Be vigilant and a guard dog to your own IP.

This does NOT mean you close yourself off from the internet and/or social media, but it DOES mean to never underestimate what your own IP is worth."


Could somebody explain it to me?

«It's the Pony, pony me this, pony me that» — Bronies
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MrValentine
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Posted: 13th Jun 2012 18:10
Intellectual Property [IP]

in short... what you write, create do, say belongs to you, which is why you hear people moaning about these giants claiming rights to your content...

mr Handy
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Posted: 14th Jun 2012 11:18
Quote: "I'm really not a tragic figure at all, although I haven't released any of my own games for ages and ages, and that's something I'm hoping to rectify very soon."

Hi, Anthony! I'm obvious, but you should use Steam for selling your indie games!

«It's the Pony, pony me this, pony me that» — Bronies
«I sell apples and apple accessories» — Applejack
Derpy delivers: watch?v=g4Kgz4Us_RI

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