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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK for Pascal

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th May 2012 09:55
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This went curiously unannounced!

Fantastic - the demo projects compiled and ran perfectly in Delphi XE2. 64-bit compiles do compile, but throw a run-time exception, which is understandable.

This system is beautifully designed and coded, with a scene-based framework.

All it needs now is Android!

-- Jim
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th May 2012 10:40
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So what does this mean for AppGameKit [says the curious news reporter XD]

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th May 2012 11:42
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It means that that people who prefer Object Pascal to C++ or Basic can use Pascal - either Delphi of Free Pascal. For me it means that I can quickly port my powerful Windows-only language-learning exercise system to run on Mac, Windows and iOS, and I hope, before long, to Android.

Pascal's Set type is very useful for games, and not available in the other languages.

Code is more readable, fully Object Orientated, and has a high degree of debugging, including remote debugging over a network.

In other words, it gives us a whole new scope to make some great games and utilities. I'm quite a happy bunny this morning!

-- Jim
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th May 2012 12:11
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Happy and living in Hull of all places XD...

Looking forward to see what you and others do with this... This is good from what I can see...

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th May 2012 12:41
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Don't believe what you read or see about Hull. We try hard to make it sound crap so that we don't get invaded. We have a garden bigger than a tennis court, cheap food, and two minutes walk away: 5 wine-bars, 2 pubs, two Indian restaurants, a Moroccan, two Italians, Indonesian, Chinese, Thai, two "fine dining"s, a 24-hour Sainsburys - the coast is 30 minutes drive away and the Yorkshire Moors one hour. Tonight we have live Jazz...

Oh no! I've given the game away!

Back on topic: I'll be posting some radical stuff in Pascal

-- Jim
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polomint
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Posted: 8th May 2012 12:46
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/me buys some tickets to Hull...

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th May 2012 13:14
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Honey pack the bags... Were moving... CHINESE FOOD TONIGHT!

Can not wait to see what you cook up (indian curry? Tikka Masala for me thanks)

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baxslash
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Posted: 8th May 2012 13:18
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I lived in Hull for a few months, my wife went to Uni there

I quite liked it. Our shed got broken into and they stole the lawnmower that didn't work, saving me a trip to the tip! Inept thieves just adds to the charm in my book!

[/off topic]

I've never used pascal personally but it's great that AppGameKit is reaching so many languages now.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th May 2012 13:31 Edited at: 8th May 2012 13:33
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It's part of the council's recycling scheme to train inept thieves to go and nick the stuff people never got around to taking to the tip.

I'll make a quick curry ingredient recipe type app in Pascal to show you how powerful sets can be!

And if you fancy it, some Genetic Programming fun - with a custom byte-code interpreter. Breed your solutions!

-- Jim
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polomint
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Posted: 8th May 2012 13:56
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This is an example of what can be done with Pascal, http://www.specbas.co.uk

Doesn't use AppGameKit, but I'm tempted to try to port it,

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th May 2012 14:44
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That appears to be Basic, not Pascal.

-- Jim
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th May 2012 14:47
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all this talk about food is getting me hungry...

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polomint
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Posted: 8th May 2012 14:50
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@JimHawkins: Yes you are right, but it was written in Pascal, I should have worded it better,

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
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kamac
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Posted: 8th May 2012 16:38
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It was slighty announced on Lee's twitter. Also, I think that AppGameKit is 1st library/program to support BASIC, C++ and Pascal (There could also be Java I guess)



Follow me on twitter! @kamac496
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Neslib
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Posted: 8th May 2012 17:20
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I created the AppGameKit for Pascal library. Let me answer some of your questions.

There are two issues regarding Android support. First is practical in that I don't have any Android programming experience and don't own any Android devices (yet). But that may change in the not too distant future. Second, afaik Free Pascal has no official Android 2.3+ support yet, although people have got it working with patches and stuff. That would make the Pascal setup for Android way more complicated than it should be.

And what this wrapper means for AppGameKit? I just hope it expands the community a bit for this excellent engine.

And for those who have no experience with (Object) Pascal and want a quick taste, or if you are just curious about the wrapper: check out my 10 minute video introduction to AppGameKit for Pascal here:

http://www.bilsen.com/agkpas/index.shtml
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th May 2012 17:50
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Quote: "a quick taste"


His post may never show but still...

STOP TALKING ABOUT FOOD

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th May 2012 19:55
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@neslib - Major thanks for doing the port. Excellent work!

There's a lot of work going on on the Lazarus front for FPC on Android. There's also Oxygene (RemObjects) using Cooper, but that costs. I'll check it out and report back.

-- Jim
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Neslib
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Posted: 8th May 2012 20:14
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Thanks for the compliment and info. I definitely plan on adding Android support.

If you come across any useful information, please let me know. It will be much appreciated.
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XanthorXIII
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Posted: 8th May 2012 21:16
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My feelings on this are mixed. Now we have basically four languages that AppGameKit is available in. It's neat to see these types of projects but as a whole won't this promote fragmentation of the community? Kudos to Neslib on putting this together. I would be interested into bringing the scene manager over to the C++ side.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 9th May 2012 00:27 Edited at: 9th May 2012 00:34
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Quote: "Now we have basically four languages that AppGameKit is available in."


C++, Basic, Pascal - what's the other one?

I can work about 20 times faster in Pascal than I can in C++, which I dislike. I've been wanting a Pascal interface to DBPro and AppGameKit since both came out.

Fragmentation? Anything that enhances AppGameKit seems to me a good thing. The languages are all wrappers around the core AppGameKit code, so common problems with the engine will be the same. Algorithms will be the same, within the limits of lowest common denominator language.

Irrespective of all that, Neslib's implementation is beautifully clean and professional code, and should be an example of how to do things properly. I anticipated a simple interface - I found an elegant abstraction layer.

Ironically, neslib lives in San Diego, California. That's where my journey started in 1979 with UCSD Pascal!

-- Jim
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baxslash
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Posted: 9th May 2012 10:58
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Quote: "C++, Basic, Pascal - what's the other one?"

There's a .NET dll too but I'm not sure if it's being updated. I tried a C# project a few weeks back and it works great.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 9th May 2012 11:12
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You can use any language in .NET, so you might as well add Lisp, Fortran, Forth etc...

-- Jim
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AgentSam
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:47
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May I suggest adding the AppGameKit build number of the wrapper to the "My Products" download page.

Since we just went from AppGameKit build 1071 to 1072 the description "AGK for Pascal (File Updated: 7th May 2012)" isn't informative enough.

Sure, the date helps, but I'd like to know at a glance which version of AppGameKit the wrapper is for.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 11:30
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I've been starting to look at getting Android compile working. The main options seem to be getting it going using Oxygene for Java (from RemObjects) that integrates into Visual Studio. This may be too expensive for many people.

The free option is to use Lazarus + FPC + arm7 compilation. This is fiddly to set up but probably a lot faster than the Java route. I'm new to Android, so I'm not sure what the platform template for that should be.

I'll report back as soon as possible.

Ideally, for me, Embarcadero would get their act together and add arm compilation to their back end for Delphi XE2. Sigh.

-- Jim
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Neslib
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Posted: 11th Jun 2012 17:48
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Jim, thanks for looking into this. It is much appreciated.

I have been looking into it a little bit too, using these instructions.

Although that page relates to a control/widget set for Android, much of it applies to plain Android programming too. I was able to get build the sample APK as long as I used JDK 6 (instead of the latest JDK 7). But I don't have an Android device yet, so I haven't been able to test it.

Apparently, it uses a Java file that redirects all device events to the Pascal engine. We would need something similar for AGK. Like the IDE\apps\interpreter_android folder in the AppGameKit distribution.

It's still pretty tedious to setup everything, and I would like see if it is possible to streamline the process a bit for AppGameKit for Pascal.

I agree that Embarcadero should make a complete solution for this. There are some opportunities there for them. But I still would like a free solution too for people who cannot afford Delphi.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 12th Jun 2012 00:37
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Well done - I haven't got an APK file out yet! Got a few .o files! Mind you, I couldn't actually locate the sample source, so I'm being thick. You should be able to run APKs in the Android emulator.

Totally agree that an FPC version is essential, but, as often happens with open-source projects, the installation and set-up process is ludicrously complicated and fraught with arcane error messages.

Happy to help in any way I can with this. I'll send you a PM.

And thanks for AppGameKit for Pascal - it's a supremely elegant and professional framework, and it's cheered me up no end.

-- Jim
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The Daddy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2012 18:46
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Hi guys

Just tagging on here to say the pascal port compiled first time under win7 32 bit. Kept crashing on 64bit.....

That said I could not get a single example to compile under ms vis studio 10.....yet Lazarus first time.

I dont have a mac abs Xcode yet but wonder if I write my app in object pascal and agk, will I be able to compile it using Xcode so that the app could fulfil apples stringent needs??????

If so its goodbye tier one for me!!!!

Constantly seeking!
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Neslib
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Posted: 13th Jun 2012 21:22
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AGK for Pascal does not support 64bit Windows. You need the 32-bit version of Lazarus/FPC or Delphi (in 32-bit mode).

Using AppGameKit for Pascal with Xcode does not break any Apple requirements, so you should be fine as long as you don't break any other Apple rules.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 14th Jun 2012 01:06
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There are several reasons for problems with 64-bit:

The AppGameKit libraries are 32-bit, and 32-bit and 64-bit don't easily mix, if they mix at all.

armv7 processors are 32-bit, and even armv8 is 32-bit. There are plans for 64-bit versions, but not any time soon, so you're not going to see 64-bit Androids for possibly years. In any case, there's not much point unless you have more than 4Gbs of RAM.

I reckon arm7 compile for Android will be working before too long!

Enjoy!

-- Jim
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DrT
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Posted: 14th Jun 2012 12:14
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@Neslib

Thank you, thank you, thank you, ...

I love the App Game Kit in general, but I felt like I was stuck in the void between Tier 1 (Basic) and Tier 2 (C++). I couldn't commit to either one. So I took a break from AGK.

I recently discovered Object Pascal (I'm from the Turbo Pascal days) and then stumbled across AppGameKit for Pascal.

I am no longer stuck in limbo. I've ascended to programming heaven. Thank you!

Also... Good luck with extending AppGameKit for Pascal to Android.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 14th Jun 2012 13:35
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Welcome, DrT. If you have an Object Pascal queries, feel free to PM me!

One very nice feature of Neslib's implementation is garbage-collection when you leave a "scene."

And now you can use sets in game coding. Yippee!

-- Jim
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Neslib
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2012 23:22
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Just a little teaser for JimHawkins and DrT:

I have got me first AppGameKit for Pascal application working on Android!

It took gallons of blood, sweat an tears, and quite a few swear words, but it works. Only ARMv6 for now, but I hope that will change soon with a new FPC cross compiler for Android that does v7.

If there aren't any more major roadblocks (they tend to keep popping up with Andrioid development), then I hope to be uploading a new version with full Android support next weekend...
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 24th Jun 2012 00:24 Edited at: 24th Jun 2012 01:20
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That's excellent news. I, too, have been sweating blood just trying to get a working arm build of anything out of Lazarus/FPC.

It looks like it might be possible using Oxygene for Java, but as that requires converting everything to a namespace rather than a unit it does mean fragmentation of the code-base, and anyway it costs $399. If we could get a reliable FPC version (even if that means a pre-configured download), that would be excellent.

It also looks like an arm/android back-end for Delphi XE2 is coming fairly soon,and that would please me, at least.

I'll be happy to write some support tools in Delphi for project management etc.

Well done, Erik! Keep it coming...

-- Jim
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Neslib
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Posted: 25th Jun 2012 03:10
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Good news. I managed to get all 50+ sample apps working on Android. There are still a couple of issues, but this is very hopeful.

The setup I used is Lazarus/FPC for compiling the library, and Eclipse Classic for building the APK, running and debugging. It works pretty well, and after this initial setup it's not too difficult to create new Android apps.

I will iron out the remaining issues and finish the documentation next weekend. I should be able to upload a new version by then.

Maybe the next Delphi version will make the process a bit easier. But at least for now (and for people who don't want to buy Delphi) we have (free) solution.

Jim, thanks for your offer for writing support tools! After you've tried AppGameKit for Pascal for Android, you may find some opportunities for useful tools to ease project management. I (and the community) would appreciate that very much.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 25th Jun 2012 10:57
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Terrific news.

Erik - can't send private mail on this forum as far as I can see.

There are quite a few things we could look at in more detail of-line. If you send me an email: jim at melissi. dot co dot uk we could move things along a bit more easily!

One obvious tool - which might be extended for the whole of AppGameKit - is the need to automate all the small file changes in XML files and configuration files, code signing etc.

-- Jim
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 25th Jun 2012 12:58
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Erik - just found your email address

-- Jim
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MikeS
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 01:37
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@Neslib,

Excellent job with the AGKPas! It just works, and I am a huge pascal fan. I am glad to hear news that there is a possibility of android support. I'd recommend you e-mail Steve Vink on the forum your updates so they can be put on the news updates. I'm sure the crowd at pascalgamedevelopment would love to use the AppGameKit with FPC to develop apps!



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JimHawkins
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 10:53 Edited at: 4th Jul 2012 10:55
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Quote: "a possibility of android support"


100% certainty.

while Lee.IsOnHoliday do Sleep(100);

-- Jim
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 14:04
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How hard would it be to have a main topic for AppGameKit for Pascal?

If Bada can have its own, why not? That would mean some related and helpful posts without making this topic unmanageable.

For example: I'm testing a lot of integration between the main Delphi/FPC sysutils and classes functions, and already have useful information to pass on.

-- Jim
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Neslib
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 17:37
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Quote: "100% certainty"


100% available now. Check out the announcement post.

if Lee.IsOnHoliday then Mike.HelpsOut;
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 00:21
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Huge thanks to Mike for updating. I've been sitting on my hands for several days waiting for the official announcement.

Well - not quite! I've been doing some "interesting" experiments on what may or may not be used on Android from the vast armoury of Object Pascal/Delphi resources. I'm chewing through SysUtils, chomping through Classes, and generally asking the question "What else can AppGameKit Pascal bring to the party?"

It's turning out to be quite a lot! For example, I created a TStringList, loaded a 110,000 line word list through the AppGameKit FileLoader, and assigned it to the sorted TStringList's .Text property. The load was slow - this is a bit excessive as tests go - but after loading the search time for a specific word was almost instant.

Lots more to come! And some important lessons - like on Android you really do need an exit button, or your app just goes into the background, possibly never to return!

It's very exciting.

-- Jim
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MikeS
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 02:19
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Quote: "How hard would it be to have a main topic for AppGameKit for Pascal?"


I think these days Paul or Jeku are doing the forum updates/enhancements. An e-mail to either one of them should allow the creation of a separate board.

In the meantime, I will sticky the announcement post.



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