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Geek Culture / Indie Game: The Movie

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tiresius
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Posted: 30th May 2012 21:51
http://www.indiegamethemovie.com/

Has anybody been following this? They had a showing in my neck of the woods I attended, got to meet the film-makers, and I must say the film itself was great. It covers the developers of Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Fez. Very entertaining and I presume many people here would find it interesting too.

It is going to be available on Steam and other places soon. I already told my wife I'm going to get the uber-edition on Blueray. And I don't have a Blueray player yet!

For those interested, it explores the "what" and "why" of making computer games as an independent developer. It does not go over much of the "how". Few scenes of coding and small bits of level design theory but that's about it. As with most documentaries, it is about the people involved.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 30th May 2012 22:00
Is the site down, I can't get anything to show up?

heyufool1
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Posted: 30th May 2012 22:22
Quote: "Is the site down, I can't get anything to show up?"

Works for me

Definitely sounds like a good watch. Though, $10 seems a bit high for streaming/downloading, but I'm sure it'll be worth it.

"So hold your head up high and know, it's not the end of the road"

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 30th May 2012 23:04 Edited at: 30th May 2012 23:08
It's back now. Looks OK.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 31st May 2012 00:04
This looks more dramatic than a slow-motion heroic event in an action movie.

This is just a bit too silly for me too watch. Going to have to pass this time.

Oolite
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Posted: 31st May 2012 00:21
I've been following this for a while now. I've always loved the idea of showing the people behind the games and more so when it comes to Indie games. Seeing a small team or single developer go from broke to world renowned designer based on pure passion is what games design is all about. I follow quite a few podcasts that get the person behind the game and I am always refreshed when I see one. Edmund McMillan is refreshingly honest when it comes to everything and I would highly recommend watching this interview. Its worth it.
Preordered on steam and ready to go come release date
Quik
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Posted: 31st May 2012 02:39
Looks great, seemed very inspirational and at the same time, shows the reality: that making games is NOT an easy task, but it can be fun and an amazing journey.

Now i havent watched it, speaking from the trailer, think ill most likely buy it.


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greenlig
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Posted: 31st May 2012 05:08
I can't wait for the showing here in Oz. Have been following this for ages, and kick-started it when the campaign was on. If you have any interest or investment in the Indie games world, this is definitely worth a look.

Jonothan Blow, for all his abruptness, is one of the best designers around today. Doesn't mince words, and definitely has important stuff to say. Really looking forward to this movie!

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Van B
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Posted: 31st May 2012 16:56
I'm looking forward to it, although I'm not sure how I'll watch it yet - was hoping it might appear on Netflix shortly after release, but that might be a stretch.

Good link Oolite, seems that channel is one worth subscribing to, some interviews with actual meat to them.

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tiresius
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Posted: 31st May 2012 17:06
@Van B
If you have Steam they are putting it on there, and I believe they will be streaming it from their website as well somehow if you buy it direct from them.


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Jimmy
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Posted: 31st May 2012 18:14
@tiresius and Van B

Yeah, when I pre-ordered it from them, it said I'll be getting a link to the 1080p download on the 12th. Very excited

Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2012 09:36
I watched this in the theatre in Vancouver about a month ago, and it was incredibly pretentious. I'd probably not watch it again, but some of you might enjoy it more than once.


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tiresius
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2012 06:04
Jeku what do you mean? I didn't get that from the film.


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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 07:00
Just the way some of them were talking about how AAA titles are crap, and some of their attitudes.. they take themselves really serious. It comes off as pretentious. Don't get me wrong, it was still entertaining.


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David R
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 16:18
Quote: " pretentious"


I don't think anyone understands what this word actually means any more: it is so overused as a catch-all criticism.

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Van B
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 16:36
Sounded spot on to me, assuming pretentious relates to the self-importance they all seem to have, disregarding the commercial game market as less important than it is, and exagerating the influence of their own games... I haven't seen it, just going by previews and stuff, and the general jist I get from other videos of these people.

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greenlig
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 17:05
It definitely would fit into the bracket of "pretentious", but I still think they have something to add to the games market, and something more than AAA titles generally give. There is a lot more to games than shooting and photorealism, and that is slowly catching on. Sure, these guys are self-involved, but they are also pushing the medium into places it hasn't dared reach. It's exciting, fun, and pretentious. Not always a bad mix!

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 17:53 Edited at: 5th Jun 2012 17:54
Pretentious works with the description, but without seeing the movie it's hard to say if it fits the movie. I often play a commercial game, and it has something missing, but it's often making a lot of money anyway. I just don't like FPS much in any case, and most games now are FPS.

Van B
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 17:58
Yes. Thing is, where programmers are concerned, the more negative traits seem to actually help. Programmers aren't geeks, aren't nerds... at least not in the typical sense. IMO, a programmer needs a fair dose of arrogance to even want to program, I've been through this before, but you have to believe that the project your working on is very important, that your time is very important, and that most people won't understand. What else can people expect when programmers have to go through life with people giving them that look, that 'what fricken language is that your speaking to me' look. We get sick of explaining ourselves to people who we know won't understand, and somehow that'll be our fault.

What is the first thing, that a programmer does when he meets another programmer? - Try and work out who's the better programmer... and each programmer will assume that they are the best. In the same regard, programmers will defend each other when dissed, more than most 'professions', there's loyalty, arrogance, and competitiveness all at the same time. Just like you're displaying in that post Greenlig - if you can have their back, I can critisize them, and we're both simply acting like programmers . I'm not questioning the success of those games, but the attitude of the creators, the same attitude that probably got them where they are. Arrogance and confidence go hand in hand, I don't believe there are any truly negative traits when it comes to creative people. I mean, it's one thing to be pretentious when you've spent 2 years creating something for millions of people to enjoy - it's something else altogether to be deluded. Do those guys really think Meat Boy is pushing indi gaming into new ground? - that is very pretentious if you ask me.

The problem is that not enough people who know better, comment on these things - it's only hyper-negative people, or idiots who don't know any better who get involved. So those guys sit and complain about the negativity, while soaking up the mindless kudo's for teaching EA a lesson etc etc etc.

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tiresius
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 18:02
I agree with greenlig 100%. Why focus on the attitudes of (a few!) of the developers? This is like reality TV where they filmed a dozen or so developers and found a few of them to be more engaging, dramatic and provocative, and their stories became the film.

If you worked on something yourself for several years, would you think it was of some significant importance? Would you be proud of your accomplishment? Some of that pride builds up the attitude that they have become more pure in the Art Form than the big businesses who make games purely based on demographics and sales statistics. If that comes out with a short sound bite of "they suck", then that's what it is.

Maybe I'm a fanboy but I feel like this film has it all there and I'm surprised all the bedroom programmers here aren't more excited about it. It describes on the screen why I've been doing these things for the past decade... except they are financially successful at it.


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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 21:35
Quote: "I don't think anyone understands what this word actually means any more: it is so overused as a catch-all criticism."


@David R - Are you implying that I don't understand what the word means?

Everyone else - Just watch the movie and see for yourselves if you agree or disagree with their attitudes. I worked for a few independent game developers over they ears, and one of them I worked at for a year for free with a small team, with dev kits and everything. I understand the lifestyle that some of these people have lived, but at the same time the indie developers that I know don't have self-important attitudes like some of the ones portrayed in the film.

And I disagree that this is "reality television". It's more a documentary with a specific bias and point to prove. It's NOT a movie where they stick cameras in some offices and watch developers code and create art. I'm not saying it's abnormal, as all documentaries have their specific bias and point they want to make.

Most people enjoyed the movie in the theatre from what I could see, and I enjoyed it too. I just thought that some of the people in the film are pretentious and arrogant.


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tiresius
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Posted: 5th Jun 2012 21:39
Quote: "And I disagree that this is "reality television". It's more a documentary with a specific bias and point to prove. "

I agree, my point was the film had "casting" by picking certain developers they filmed. I think most documentaries have a point to prove and footage they use is steered in that direction.

I'm going to get the uber-edition so I'll let you all know if the rest of the interviewed developers are the same way.


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David R
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Posted: 8th Jun 2012 19:54
Quote: "@David R - Are you implying that I don't understand what the word means?
"


No - I haven't seen the film yet so obviously I can't say you're using it incorrectly. But the word has appeared more and more recently, often out of context, especially in reference to indie games. Heck, I saw a level editor described as pretentious the other day. It's becoming an overused weak term for people to dismiss things without substantiating their opinion - on par with just saying 'it sucks'

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greenlig
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Posted: 9th Jun 2012 05:13
Saw it last night, and I really enjoyed it. It was what I was expecting, but also didn't sugar coat it. It wasn't all feel good and rosy, it was real, painful, and from the looks of it, pretty stressful undertaking.

There is something so attractive about that, though. It's easy (relatively) to create something in a short amount of time. The cost of devotion is low, and you expect results that are significantly scoped. With these projects though, they take place over 3-5 years. That's so long to spend on something personal. SO long. It becomes you, and you become it. The film shows that fantastically. Some of the guys *cough Phil Fish cough* are pretentious, and going into this, I thought the guy was a pillock. His comments at GDC on Japanese games, along with his general arrogance seemed...so hipster. But, seeing a bit more of his process, his work, his devotion, I wonder if that's not something he HAS to be. Like he says in the film (paraphrase), "...you are THIS close to the same thing for 4 years. You can't see anything else." That's the kind of guy he is, and Fez wouldn't have been made without him.

Jonothan Blow is always welcome to talk, in my mind! He is very, very thoughtful, and just doesn't mince words. Where Fish speaks his mind in a pontificating manner, Blow just shoots straight. I like that, and it's a breath of fresh air. If you haven't, read his blog for The Witness. It's full of fantastic stuff.

Those are just my thoughts! I really enjoyed the film, and will be spending the long weekend programming. If you need me, you'll find me wrapped up in a blanket, working on SpyGame. All inspired now

Greenlig

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David R
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Posted: 15th Jun 2012 18:59 Edited at: 15th Jun 2012 19:10
OK, I saw this last night - it was good. Not amazing, but still worth watching. It lacks a bit of substance (in the sense we don't really see the 'struggle' involved or much of it) but then being fair to it, I don't believe we're really the intended audience, so it does mainly a surface look at the people issues involved (I imagine it would be a better watch for those not into [indie] games at all). If you're very well acquainted with the people+games involved and the development process of each game, you won't find much new here, but it is a very nicely presented film of the various happenings



But after watching I really do find the 'pretentious' comments truly mind-boggling. Most of what is said is either the practical troubles of development, or their hopes and aspirations etc. and I really do not understand those calling it pretentious.

Additional comment (very minor spoiler):



Amusingly, the audio commentary by team meat (which is brilliant by the way) also references the overuse/incorrect use of pretentious

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Jun 2012 04:59 Edited at: 16th Jun 2012 05:01
I would have guessed David R would have been looking for a reason to disagree with mine and some other's feeling that the movie was pretentious. It's really a subjective adjective and is one of those feelings that you can't "prove" per se. I got an extremely pretentious feeling when watching the film, and whether you agree with that interpretation or not is up to you.

One of the most irritating things was when the programmer of Super Meat Boy basically said his game is better than Halo (it was either Halo or Call of Duty, or a reference to AAA titles like Halo or Call of Duty; I saw the movie in April so I don't remember it word-for-word). Even if he doesn't like Halo, again it's really a subjective thing to say whether a video game is "better" than another one. It just reeked of smarmy IMHO. I must remember to add IMHO to everything or I'll surely be called out on it by certain people as non-factual


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greenlig
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Posted: 16th Jun 2012 07:38
On a completely different tangent, the soundtrack is fantastic. You can listen to the whole thing on Jim Guthrie's Bandcamp page:

http://jimguthrie.bandcamp.com/releases

I guess one of the best things about the film is that it didn't play it too safe. It has the capacity to polarise, which is a good thing IMHO(*nods to Jeku*).

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Quik
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Posted: 16th Jun 2012 14:31
Quote: " I saw the movie in April so I don't remember it word-for-word). Even if he doesn't like Halo, again it's really a subjective thing to say whether a video game is "better" than another one"


I get really annoyed at this whole.. "BF3 owns Cod" thingy, like you said, its fully subjective and up to taste. I like CoD for what it is: arcady shooting. BF3 is really a big scale "realistic" shooter with arcady elements, both are really fun though :I


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David R
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Posted: 16th Jun 2012 18:37 Edited at: 16th Jun 2012 20:00
Quote: "One of the most irritating things was when the programmer of Super Meat Boy basically said his game is better than Halo (it was either Halo or Call of Duty, or a reference to AAA titles like Halo or Call of Duty; I saw the movie in April so I don't remember it word-for-word). Even if he doesn't like Halo, again it's really a subjective thing to say whether a video game is "better" than another one. It just reeked of smarmy IMHO."


Team Meat really don't take themselves as seriously as it appears in the film - listen to the audio commentary, a great deal of mocking/ribbing occurs during that scene for Tommy's perceived arrogance. It doesn't seem to be the intention at all.

Maybe if you're not familiar with these people it could paint them in a bad light, but to say the overall thing is 'pretentious' I still disagree with. Projecting an overall idea or vibe you disagree with is not the same as pretension

Quote: "I would have guessed David R would have been looking for a reason to disagree with mine and some other's feeling that the movie was pretentious."


What a... pretentious assumption

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th Jun 2012 21:01
So I have watched the movie. Because I never go on the XBox, Microsoft sites etc I didn't know that there was still money to be made from Indi games. So that was my major surprise. I liked the games that were shown in the movie. The stress was also a surprise, the programmers all seemed on the point of a nervous breakdown. Glad I don't have release dates to stick to. Another surprise was that high ratings seem to give the developers even more stress. I mean stressed out over 10/10 ratings? It is inspirational to watch, there were no complex game coding challenges, the only challenge was ideas.

Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 06:06
Quote: "Projecting an overall idea or vibe you disagree with is not the same as pretension"


Dude, I *know* what pretentious means. Please stop the condescension already. If you disagree with me, that's your own taste.


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ionstream
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 06:21
Quote: "What a... pretentious assumption"


Oh I'd say that fits the bill pretty well.

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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 07:49
Pretentious - Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

For an Indie Developer to say their game is more important/better/whatever than AAA titles is the very meaning of pretentious.

I like indie games as much as the next guy but they don't hold my attention. I enjoy then while I play them but they're very quickly forgotten.

This whole attitude of AAA games being rubbish and destroying the industry is really starting to irritate me too. I don't see indie gaming as the future, I don't see mobile gaming as the future either. But the very people who call others 'sheeple' because they enjoy certain AAA titles are simply 'sheeple' themselves. Uniform in their dislike for games they don't play because it's cool to hate on popular games.

I have no interest in this movie whatsoever.

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 09:32
I already paid $16 to see the movie in theatre but maybe I'll get the Steam version and watch it again with commentary.

On a side note, the word 'movie' keeps getting underlined in Chrome as misspelled. Weird.


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greenlig
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 09:41
It's not necessarily a matter of it being "cool to hate on popular games". Sure, there is an element of the Indie scene that do have that attitude, but they are more often than not young people. It's a clique thing, but not a symptom of the entire movement. There is a lack of depth in the Indie scene, and things like Game Jams and the like don't do a heap to change that. However, as Jonothan Blow says in the film, making games independently is a chance to NOT go by the AAA guidelines. It's a chance to make something for it's sake, not for the profit potential. That's why opinions are polarised. Some believe that the medium can go special places, and traditional AAA games are not helping that. It's a profit motive, business oriented. WHICH IS FINE, just not conducive to pushing an art form.

I like AAA games, Rage was fantastic, COD4 was great. That said, profit drives the "industry", not innovation. Sequels are the most profitable titles, and they get the green light more than anything else. But they have their place. Not to push interactive entertainment as the next great art-form, not to test the boundaries of storytelling, and definitely not to take risks. Risk taking is rare in AAA titles. Tens of millions spent on something that will require a massive profit to be worth it, make risk-taking anathema. It still happens from time to time, but not often. Indie games can afford to take more risks, can afford to experiment.

Both have their places. Mainstream gaming popularises the medium, and brings more cultural weight to it. Generally, this means high-quality, polished, middle-of-the-road fare. Not a bad thing, but a thing none the less. This film is about a different subject, though. It's about the auteur putting their life into something. Making something personal, something of significance to them. It's a massive risk, both personally and professionally. The film explores that, and makes no judgement either way on the worth, it just exposes the process. It's worth a watch. You're already part of the independent game dev scene, why not watch a doco about it?

Games are an art form. There's no arguing that. But there are differences in how that is explored. Not better or worse, different.

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Van B
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 15:39
I think that all the people who are disagreeing about the meaning of 'pretentious' need to look up the meaning themselves. Seriously DavidR, how was that statement pretentious. And please explain properly, don't just say your wrong, then go onto the next thing - tell us what your definition is, because it's clearly not the same as a dictionary. Feel free to chip in Ionstream with your definition.
If you don't want to do that, then shut up about it.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 16:08 Edited at: 17th Jun 2012 16:18
Anyway the guy in the film was under a lot of stress, he was also depressed, he couldn't even smile when the game sales were flying off the shelf. To say Halo is sh*t was a product of his stress I think. But anyway, even in the 1990's I was already fed up of FPS like Star Wars. Never bought Doom either. I would say that I am similar to those guys in the movie, but not quite so extreme. I like 2D, and I like the games in the program.

All that talk of buzz-saws was a bit weird. Like buzz-saws are new.

Oh, and movie is an American word so it get a Dictionary fail.

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David R
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 17:47 Edited at: 17th Jun 2012 17:58
Quote: "Seriously DavidR, how was that statement pretentious. And please explain properly, don't just say your wrong, then go onto the next thing - tell us what your definition is, because it's clearly not the same as a dictionary"


By implying I would only disagree because the original statement was made is affording greater importance/regard to the original statement ("a claim or aspiration to a particular quality or importance"). It's kind of a contrived use of the word - but that was also the point (in the same way I believe the word is being overused).

Also - see how irritating it is when people apply the word when it doesn't really fit/is just being used to dismiss? You can contrive a situation where practically anything is 'pretentious', that's why it's such a nothing word. If you think it sucks or you disagree with them, just say so - don't just scapegoat with 'pretentious'.

Quote: "Dude, I *know* what pretentious means. Please stop the condescension already. If you disagree with me, that's your own taste"


I didn't mean it like that, but whatever.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 19:02
Good ol' argumentative David R is back.

Judging by how the indie scene has become I already have the preconception that the film is going to be pretentious, so I don't think I'll be watching it any time soon.



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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 22:11
I disagree that indie developers don't have a profit drive. Some of them who have money already might have art as their main driving factor, but I can say without a doubt that most of the developers in the movie had dreams of getting rich making indie games Who here hasn't had that dream at least once? I still envision making indie games and being able to quit my job working for the man!

Also, some AAA titles drive innovation in the games industry. Take a look at Rage. The engine is something that has eclipsed all other outdoor game engines. John Carmack is nothing if not innovative!


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Jun 2012 22:35 Edited at: 17th Jun 2012 22:42
Quote: "I disagree that indie developers don't have a profit drive."


Could you quote the post that you are answering, because I can't find it. It's OK to refer to the last post without a quote, but if it is a few posts back, it is hard for readers to figure out who you mean.

If you mean this...
Quote: "he couldn't even smile when the game sales were flying off the shelf. "


That's a reference to an (mild?) illness, not a profit drive.

Thraxas
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 00:09
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=197316&b=2&msg=2364441#m2364441

I would think it was this post

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 00:24
@Pincho - Sorry, I tend to refer to old posts without quoting them

Quote: " It's a chance to make something for it's sake, not for the profit potential. That's why opinions are polarised. Some believe that the medium can go special places, and traditional AAA games are not helping that. It's a profit motive, business oriented. WHICH IS FINE, just not conducive to pushing an art form. "



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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 01:25
Quote: "@Pincho - Sorry, I tend to refer to old posts without quoting them"


Oh, OK. Yeah, maybe profit works for some people. I think that the program was split between people who wanted to make a game that people liked, and others who were business people.

greenlig
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 06:44 Edited at: 18th Jun 2012 06:59
I should clarify that a bit more. The profit motive comes from higher up the chain, and drives the green-light process. I agree that to an extent everyone has a profit motive (I want to be well off too), but I know personally, and as the film showed, it's not the guiding focus. That's why people go independent. Dependency on publishers means games with sure success, or at least minimal risk, will get the go-ahead first. The profit motive is with the publishers, and regardless of the intentions of the developer (who almost uniformly want to make good games), it is the publishers that are pushing the market. Not the craftsmen.

I also agree that people like Carmack push innovation. I am a massive fan of his work, and loved Rage, MOSTLY for the visuals. The game was fun, if not shallow, but BOY did it look good. I spent a lot of time just looking around, because I enjoyed the environment so much. All that said, that's technical innovation, a much more publicised area of innovation. Everyone wants a prettier game than the last, but photorealism costs a lot of money! Smaller games can't compete on that front, so they have to focus on other areas, like sound(Deep Sea), storytelling(Passage), mechanics(Narbacular Drop/Portal), etc. I think both areas of the industry are necessary and good, but I personally prefer being on the boundaries.

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Fuzz
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 09:17
I really wanted to see this but after some of the comments I don't know if I want to

Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 10:07
Quote: "storytelling(Passage)"


Really? I thought Passage was interesting, but the storyline wasn't compelling. Yes it was a 5 minute game, but I don't think it was remarkable. It made me think for a few minutes and I passed the link around to friends, but it's hardly amazing in the storytelling department IMHO.

The most amazing indie games for me are ones that are surprisingly excellent in comparison to "real" games that have big publishers. An example of this is the new game on Steam called Krater. It's an amazing RPG that has Diablo fixings with Fallout environments. It's also so very beautiful to look at!

I thought Fez was a great game too, but I got tired of it after 30 minutes. Same with Braid. Same with Super Meat Boy. Not sure what that says about me, but it's really difficult to get into some of these new-fangled indie games nowadays.


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Van B
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 10:28
I know what you mean Jeku, I got pretty sick of Fez before long as well, and I probably won't play Meat Boy until I fix my wired 360 controller, playing that game with keyboard is a nightmare.
The best indi game recently IMO has to be Limbo - I don't think I've been sucked into a 2D game like that since Abe's Exodus.

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greenlig
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 13:08
What Passage did have in terms of storytelling was how it was built through the gameplay. Almost every element of the game furthered the central theme of choices, life, companionship, etc. It takes something special to be that concise.

I've only played a little of Fez so far, and not by myself enough to really get into it. Reserving judgement till I've given a good crack.

I agree with you on Limbo, Van B. Played it through in a sitting with friends, which was fantastic.

I definitely don't think indie games are uniformly good. Far from it. I just think there's a lot more room for exploration, and you'll see a wider range of experimentation. But like you say, Jeku, it's the ones that pleasantly surprise that are the best.

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tiresius
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 16:18
Quote: "I really wanted to see this but after some of the comments I don't know if I want to "

Then you'd be making a decision based on a weeks-long argument by people over the internet concerning a 5 second sound bite of a 90+ minute film. And that would be a shame!


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