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Geek Culture / Indie Game: The Movie

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 16:59
Yeah, you can't go by what we say...

For example, I might not agree with the developers attitudes on all the points, but that wouldn't stop me watching and probably re-watching.

Hobbyist and indi developers don't really have a lot of relevant movie options with this, apart from that Minecraft documentary thing that isn't released yet. We almost have to watch it, all of us. It'd be like having an extra foot growing out of your head, then someone makes a movie about a boy with an extra foot growing out of their head - then deciding not to watch it because Ryan Reynolds plays the foot.

I guess we tend to focus on negativity and disregard the positive aspects with this stuff - nobody is saying that they wish they hadn't watched it, or that they outright hated it - mostly the debate here seems to be about developer attitudes, which we'll never change and should be more willing to accept/excuse/defend/whatever.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Fuzz
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 18:25 Edited at: 18th Jun 2012 18:28
Quote: "Then you'd be making a decision based on a weeks-long argument by people over the internet concerning a 5 second sound bite of a 90+ minute film. And that would be a shame!"


Haha fair enough! I've been meaning to see it for a while so I'll probably download it on Steam soon enough.

I was just thinking that the movie/devs coming off as pretentious may annoy me or just be off putting. I didn't realise it was just a few seconds that was that way!

Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 22:48
Quote: "The best indi game recently IMO has to be Limbo - I don't think I've been sucked into a 2D game like that since Abe's Exodus."


That one too! I played through 85% of it with my ex-girlfriend, and then we broke up shortly after. I never picked it up again because it reminds me of her. Doh!

Quote: "Then you'd be making a decision based on a weeks-long argument by people over the internet concerning a 5 second sound bite of a 90+ minute film. And that would be a shame!"


Yah, don't do that. I am ordering it on Steam anyways, so I can re-watch with developer commentary. I also want to support those who make these kinds of movies, because they're rare! Even if I don't agree with some of the developers, I still respect the crap out of them! And the Fez guys are Canadian-- big ups.


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Wolf
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 23:12
Quote: "This looks more dramatic than a slow-motion heroic event in an action movie.

This is just a bit too silly for me too watch. Going to have to pass this time.
"


I'm with rambo on that one.

Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes, art is knowing which ones to keep.
David R
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 21:07 Edited at: 19th Jun 2012 21:08
Quote: " I am ordering it on Steam anyways, so I can re-watch with developer commentary"


Dunno how familiar you are with Team Meat, but make sure to catch something else they've done to see if you like their flavour of (deadpan / sarcastic / bizarre) humour. I like it and in some ways the commentary is more enjoyable than the film itself - but if that style of humour grates on you it may not be worth the money (although there are still some insightful comments and background every so often)

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rambofinch07
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:38
It's looks something different nad interesting.

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TheComet
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Posted: 8th Jul 2012 09:35
It was worth watching IMO, I enjoyed it.

TheComet

Van B
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Posted: 13th Jul 2012 09:49
Finally found time to watch it... during work yesterday actually, I wish I had a movie to watch everyday at work - makes the day fly by .

Anyway, just wanted to post that I thought the movie was pretty awesome. I didn't pick up on arrogance, and understand what they were on about with the whole Halo comparison thing, it was really more about his preference than any lofty attitudes to his own games. My only real critique is that I would have hoped for a little more in-depth stuff, about the gameplay mechanics etc. If you ever worry about the time it takes you to finish a project, then watch this movie - it'll make you feel a whole lot better.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 04:54
Disclaimer: I helped Kickstart this movie, I am personal friends the creators, Jamie and Lisanne and the subjects, Jonathan, Edmund, Tommy and Phil. I did the Dutch subtitles and I'm in the credits twice.

AAA drives some innovation, but that innovation is usually technical. I love my AAA games, honestly, I'm still a sucker for Assassins Creed, I bought Mass Effect 3 on day one, I loved Rage (for its throwback gameplay and its amazing weapon feel, not its engine, what do I care about the engine?) and I still wish I had more time for Starcraft.

The indie scene/mentality can simply take more risk. AAA studios wouldn't make Amnesia or Deep Sea. They wouldn't make Storyteller. They wouldn't make GlitchHiker. They wouldn't make Johann Sebastian Joust. They wouldn't make Fez or Super Meat Boy or Braid or Journey. They wouldn't push the boundaries because the average consumer doesn't want the boundaries pushed too far.

Thus, indie games leap and AAA games look at what works and crawl after them. Minecraft sold millions? Let's allow for more player expression in our next AAA game. Amnesia offers tense, horror through minimal means, let's make Dead Space 3 scarie...oh wait.

Pretentious is a word I often hear about Indie Game: The Movie, and I'm going to politely disagree. This movie isn't about games - it's a movie about the journey of a few people trying to make something personal and creative and the hardships they encounter while doing exactly that.

They're not making games for money, they're making these games because they personally feel the games they're making should exist. Indie developers, and I am one of them as half of Dutch indie studio Vlambeer, get extremely personally attached to a project.

I've worked in bigger teams before Vlambeer, but the stakes on my current projects feel higher. I am 50% of the face, of the name, connected to my game. Our fans talk with me directly, mail with me, tweet with me... at times I feel that the game, or half of it, is me.

The project I spent most time on cost me 9 months. These people worked on their games for years - without any certainty, without any money in case things went wrong, without a huge development team to keep them motivated - they worked on it because they had to.

Even then, so many points in the movie hit home so hard. The ups and downs and stress and despair - they're in every game production. I can honestly say there are moments in the movie that made me well up and there were moments that made me grin like an idiot. I was sitting in a room with 3000 game developers at the Game Developers Conference and I could sense that many of them were on the same emotional rollercoaster I was.

If being closely attached to your passion project is pretentious, then hell yes, I'm proud to be pretentious. I'll just call it personally attached, if you don't mind.

Indie Game: The Movie is important to me because it was the movie that finally allowed me to explain to my dad that this is what I do. This is why I fly around the world, this is why I work crazy hours, this is why I'm on TV or in the newspaper, this is why I can't stop talking about the games I work on. This is why I didn't go work at NASA, like you wanted me to.

And know what? He understood.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
Jeku
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 08:16 Edited at: 28th Jul 2012 08:17
Quote: "They're not making games for money, they're making these games because they personally feel the games they're making should exist."


And I'll disagree with you on that one. Having been in a few indie game companies myself (one of them with Alec Holowka!), I reckon most indie developers dream of making a lot of money. Nobody enjoys being a starving artist "just for the art". We can argue about this 100 times. Developers can wax nostalgic about doing it for the art and art alone, all they want, after they're rich, and they often do.

If they have jobs already, then sure, a hobbyist indie developer might make a game purely because the game they're making should exist.

Quote: "If being closely attached to your passion project is pretentious, then hell yes, I'm proud to be pretentious"


Who said that? The points that were pretentious were already pointed out above. Nobody said anyone was pretentious because they're "closely attached to their passion project". Any one of us gets closely attached to our passion projects. Hell, I have one passion project that I've been working on for years, and I'm closely attached. That's not being pretentious. If I turned around and said that my game is better than Halo, COD, and that Japanese companies make crappy games, that would be fairly unjustified and pretentious of me.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 16:25
Quote: "And I'll disagree with you on that one. Having been in a few indie game companies myself (one of them with Alec Holowka!), I reckon most indie developers dream of making a lot of money. Nobody enjoys being a starving artist "just for the art". We can argue about this 100 times. Developers can wax nostalgic about doing it for the art and art alone, all they want, after they're rich, and they often do."

I've worked with Alec and dozens of others, I talk with a lot of indies daily and I am 50% of an indie company myself. We're making the games we feel need to be made and work out a way to earn money through that. I barely know any projects that are started 'for the money'.

Sure, some dream to hit it big, but that's barely ever the drive. It isn't for Vlambeer, it isn't for Alec, it isn't for Notch.

Quote: "That's not being pretentious. If I turned around and said that my game is better than Halo, COD, and that Japanese companies make crappy games, that would be fairly unjustified and pretentious of me."

Why is that pretentious? I don't know about your game, because I haven't played it, but I actually agree Braid, Super Meat Boy and Fez would all qualify as 'better than Call of Duty', even though I've played every Call of Duty game and always enjoyed the rollercoaster.

I also think quite some indie games are better than Halo (and I'm a huge Halo fan, mind you, having played all the games, including the Anniversary Edition, and still playing some of them every now and then).

If Phil says something about Japenese games and Inafune himself jumps to support Phil, I think Phil's not being pretentious - he's onto something.

I can't find anything pretentious here.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
Doomster
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 17:04 Edited at: 28th Jul 2012 17:07
I enjoy the indie scene and appreciate, how many innovative and creative ideas are born out of it, so I'll probably watch this movie at some point... I enjoyed the Oblivion Making-of from Bethesda as well, so perhaps this will also have some interesting bits for me.

Quote: "I barely know any projects that are started 'for the money'"


Quote: "Vlambeer also has a Not Vlambeer label, which the studio uses to release games that they, in their own words, "make for money or as an experiment that we don't want to follow up on""



tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 21:21
@Doomster At this point, out of the twelve games we've released, Dinosaur Zookeeper is the only 'Not Vlambeer' game we made for money. All other games had a business plan attached to them later in development.

I'm not saying indies don't make games to earn money, I'm saying earning money is usually far from the focus on the projects they get attached to.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 06:42
Quote: "They're not making games for money, they're making these games because they personally feel the games they're making should exist."

That gave me a good laugh.

I>Every single one of you

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tiresius
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 09:29 Edited at: 29th Jul 2012 09:33
Quote: "And know what? He understood."

After watching it with my wife and quickly confirming she enjoyed the film, I asked her if the film helped her understand any better who I was. I got a quick "No." I guess I could take that in two wildly different ways.


How about we all agree that having the title of an "indie game developer" doesn't always equate to a Pure Artist, who does what they do for the love of it without any thought of financial reward? There is a whole spectrum of people with different reasons for going Indie. One size doesn't fit all. The most basic definition is "developer(s) not working for a major studio". (Same as an "Indie Label" for music.)

And we should all agree that Indie Game: The Movie is awesome and entertaining.


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Quik
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 10:11
Quote: "How about we all agree that having the title of an "indie game developer" doesn't always equate to a Pure Artist"


having the title of a developer, doesnt matter what, equates to a pure artist, now, if you think a pure artist doesnt make money of his work.. then we see of it differently..



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Van B
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 15:59
There are different levels of indi though, especially since a lot of indi's would have classed themselves as hobbyists a few years ago. The factor is success, and everyone wants their game to be a success don't they, and that tends to invariably result in making money, sometimes a helluva lot of money. Making money, although not the main draw for everyone, tends to end up being the end goal.

It's not a greed thing, it's a paying bills, eating, and staying alive thing. Modern indi game projects tend to be full time, multiple people affairs - even solo projects tend to need, and benefit from outside help (graphics, sound, music). This involves money most of the time. It's almost impossible to get your game to a mass market without it having to make money.

Right now, I'd say that projects are mostly started without the desire to make a lot of money, but things snowball, to compete in the iOS, Steam and 360 marketplace some investment is inevitable, and making money becomes a necessary evil. At that point, giving up the day job and devving full time is a possibility, and then that's you, a full blown indi developer, not just a hobbyist.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 17:49 Edited at: 29th Jul 2012 17:50
I think that you might think about money near the end of your project, but months would pass where the game is made just to create something that you always wanted to play. And not everyone likes games like Halo.

greenlig
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 22:07
Quote: "That gave me a good laugh."


Care to explain, RedneckRambo?

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Jeku
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Posted: 30th Jul 2012 03:07
Quote: "It's not a greed thing, it's a paying bills, eating, and staying alive thing"


Thank you. Not all of us have the pleasure of living rent free and not working at a day job If anyone knows the value of being a "pure" indie with no money, it's definitely me! In 2005 I spent 8 months working on an indie game with Alec and about 8 others, for free and living off credit cards. When the company went bellyup we all had to scramble and get real jobs, and I was left with $15,000 in credit card debt. Realistically, how long do you expect someone can do that and survive without any sort of income?

Quote: "Care to explain, RedneckRambo?"


It made me laugh too, because it seemed as if he spoke for all the indie developers in the world or in the movie just makes games because their games should exist. How wonderful to have such a high level look on the industry Speaking of Notch, he is one of those guys that is going to fund games that just should be, like a Psychonauts sequel. He has the money and the freedom to do pet projects--- good on him!


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 30th Jul 2012 03:13
In England you can live for years without working. It's not good, but you get paid to survive. You can work on a game, and also look for work. Usually your skills will get you work in the end, and so it is quite a good thing that you can do that.

Jeku
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Posted: 30th Jul 2012 03:17
Quote: "In England you can live for years without working. It's not good, but you get paid to survive. You can work on a game, and also look for work. Usually your skills will get you work in the end, and so it is quite a good thing that you can do that."


That's some kind of socialized assistance, which I loathe. I understand the government paying you if you get laid off and are actively looking for work. But deciding to sit and make a game instead of getting a paying job should NOT be one of the options of welfare. That sounds horrid.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 30th Jul 2012 03:19 Edited at: 30th Jul 2012 03:20
You do both. You can't spend all of your time looking for work, so you improve your skills instead. That works just as well. That's how I got my job in the games industry. I spent time making animations.

Quik
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Posted: 30th Jul 2012 03:26
Quote: "I understand the government paying you if you get laid off and are actively looking for work. But deciding to sit and make a game instead of getting a paying job should NOT be one of the options of welfare. That sounds horrid."


I'd say both yes and no - if I CANT get a job, I certanly don't wanna end up on the streets now do I?
But, constant interaction with the person in question should be required, to make sure he is actually ACTIVLY searching for work.

Personally, i like and support that system here is sweden, and I loathe the moderat-party/right side of the block (opposite of "vänsterpartiet" and Social-party)
but.. this is not the place for politics now is it..


AT ANY RATE, I support the system, but changes might be required. As long as it's regulated, i see no wrong in it



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Jul 2012 19:42
Quote: "
That's some kind of socialized assistance, which I loathe. I understand the government paying you if you get laid off and are actively looking for work. But deciding to sit and make a game instead of getting a paying job should NOT be one of the options of welfare. That sounds horrid."


Agreed, it's there to support people who need support when looking for work, not for supporting people who don't wanna work. Unfortunately, it is a system that can be abuse more easily.

Still, in those times when you aren't looking for work (you do have time for yourself), there's still time to do some projects should you wish. The draw back being, your hours would be reduced as soon as you do get a job. But nothing wrong with doing this as a hobby, it was my hobby game dev that got me an interview at Jagex Games (Associate Writer for Transformers MMO), but sadly it was my lack of industry experience that didn't get me the job (as the were 2 guys ahead of me who had). Now, Jagex are still technically an Indie company and their flaship title was RuneScape and you could hardly call that a AAA title, but the company itself is pretty huge, in that it employs 100s of staff and their jobs pay well and offer great benefits. You could certainly live a cosey life style with what they offer. I was actually surprised to see how big they got as an indie company, but I suppose an MMORPG can bring in a lot of moolah over the years.

I don't think the company is necessarily greedy either, but what's nice to see is that they've managed to fund their own expansion and work independently as a business. I am sure back in the day when they were a small team creating RuneScape they weren't aiming to make a lot of money, but now, they have staff to pay and other bills to worry about and also money to make themselves grow as a company to fill more of their visions, so I am sure now they're in a position where they have to make money, otherwise it could mean staff are out of a job and the company could be making a loss, as it takes time and money to invest and as a business, regardless of the business's philosophy they have to make money. But at least being an independent games company they might have more flexibiluty, as they probably aren't looking to satisfy investors or anybody above them so maybe, maybe with the exception of Transformers in that they're working with Hasbro on that one, though I do not know what Hasbro has agreed, as unfortunately, I didn't get the job and if I had, that information is probably classified.

tha_rami
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Posted: 31st Jul 2012 07:24 Edited at: 31st Jul 2012 07:54
Quote: "There are different levels of indi though, especially since a lot of indi's would have classed themselves as hobbyists a few years ago. The factor is success, and everyone wants their game to be a success don't they, and that tends to invariably result in making money, sometimes a helluva lot of money. Making money, although not the main draw for everyone, tends to end up being the end goal.

It's not a greed thing, it's a paying bills, eating, and staying alive thing. Modern indi game projects tend to be full time, multiple people affairs - even solo projects tend to need, and benefit from outside help (graphics, sound, music). This involves money most of the time. It's almost impossible to get your game to a mass market without it having to make money.

Right now, I'd say that projects are mostly started without the desire to make a lot of money, but things snowball, to compete in the iOS, Steam and 360 marketplace some investment is inevitable, and making money becomes a necessary evil. At that point, giving up the day job and devving full time is a possibility, and then that's you, a full blown indi developer, not just a hobbyist.
"


Well, that about sums it up. There's a mighty gap between starting a project for money and starting a project because you want that specific game to exist. At some point, you're dependent enough to hope to make money, but most succesful indie games aren't started from that perspective. They're made because the creator hates word-games, so he sets out to make a wordgame.

In case that made you two laugh, by the way, I was actually speaking for all developers in the movie. All of them are friends of mine and all of them started the project 'just making that game'. Whether that was on DeviantArt (Fez) or through mailing lists (the other two games), the goal was to make the game. Later on, money became a subject.

I regret your implication that I have a 'high perspective'. High perspective? This 'scene' is basically my life at this point. I've paid my rents making games at Vlambeer and after a year of working a weekend job, I was able to stop doing that. Vlambeer has been all that I do to support myself, and besides DZK all our games are made from another perspective than money. I'd argue that that's not a high perspective. Deciding that money is the starting goal of every game made for anyone that's not a student or ridiculously rich is a cynical, disappointing view of what the medium cán be.

Believe me, I'm probably one of the more business-minded indies around. I end up giving business advice to a whole lot of great artists and indies and usually its because they have this game or installation or app or product they wanted to make and now that its done, they were 'wondering whether it could also earn them some spare change so they can go to GDC'.

And I'd argue that implying that you need a lot of money to make games you want to make is simply an outdated view of the industry. Most of the games I'm most proud of were made without any monetary investments, jamming with friends.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2012 08:06
Out of that list of indies, I know for a fact that Phil Fish received grants from the Canadian government, which can only have eased some of the financial issues. I'm not saying everyone has rich relatives or a great government to helped fund their game, but I just gave you another example of my own indie company back in 2005 where I got into a ton of debt. There are a SMALL amount of successes if you look at all the indie games that are released every year. If you get lucky with a hit it could be easy to spend it all chasing the next hit, only for it not to arrive at all. I have a bleak outlook but I'd consider myself a realist with experience not making a rare hit game on Steam like Super Meat Boy


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tha_rami
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 23:35 Edited at: 4th Aug 2012 23:36
Quote: "Out of that list of indies, I know for a fact that Phil Fish received grants from the Canadian government, which can only have eased some of the financial issues. I'm not saying everyone has rich relatives or a great government to helped fund their game, but I just gave you another example of my own indie company back in 2005 where I got into a ton of debt. There are a SMALL amount of successes if you look at all the indie games that are released every year. If you get lucky with a hit it could be easy to spend it all chasing the next hit, only for it not to arrive at all. I have a bleak outlook but I'd consider myself a realist with experience not making a rare hit game on Steam like Super Meat Boy "

I am an example that you do not need a big success to make games as a living independently. Our games have consistently netted enough to keep us going.

In fact, I gave a seminar half a year ago in which students needed to make and sell a game in three weeks. The average selling price was $1600, the top selling price was $5000. These are students without any former commercial development or sales experience.

Sidenote: I am extremely opposed to the use of the word 'luck', too. It's a fraction of what you need to succeed and you can succeed without it, too.

This is getting off-topic from the movie, though.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
calvinmark
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Posted: 28th Sep 2012 10:57
This game is looking good but i have not played. I will must play it.

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