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Geek Culture / They found the Higgs!

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:05 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 19:06
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Quote: "To me it is all kiddy science that has stood the test of time inside the minds of children."


But to everyone else, it's been real science that stood the test of time. You can become very famous in science for proving something that everyone else believes is wrong. People have been trying to do that with QM for a long time. It really has stood the test of time. If you are right about everything you say, you could make the world a better place and yourself very wealthy and famous by publishing it. But you won't do that, not because there's an international conspiracy amongst physicists about the nature of sub-atomic particles, but because you will make a fool of yourself.

All I'm saying is, if you're gonna come to these threads and say everyone in the whole world is wrong, you gotta back it up somehow.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:08
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Yes I am making a simulator that self builds the Universe like 'The Game Of Life' without any real help from the coder. If it creates all physics from scratch then that is my proof of concept.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:12
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Here's the flaw with your program, and I haven't even seen it yet!

In order to model a system, you have to observe it first. Alright, so you know classical physics and that's pretty easy. But unless you OBSERVE and/or READ about events that happen right under your nose, then you have nothing to model.

How do you know that everything sub-atomic being simulated by your program is actually happening, when you don't have a particle smasher to watch what happens, or you haven't read about what other scientists have observed? You're just making it all up.

However, if you think I'm wrong, show me what you have in action.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:14
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I don't model the system it models itself.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:16
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Beginning to think you're trolling.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:17 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 19:18
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Have you never seen the game of life. It models itself. But I have copied space time (what I believe is space time) instead of a square grid.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:21
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I have seen game of life, and I understand how it works. It may create emergent systems but there are still arbitrary rules put in place right at the beginning. I want to see some evidence that your simulation accurately recreates something in our universe, and how that proves that the Higgs Boson either doesn't exist or doesn't work the way everyone thinks it does.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:27
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I think the problem with a model or a computer program is that in order to simulate anything real world it'll need to base itself on existing real world data and things that can already by tested by science. A model may be used to create predictions or to demonstrate/explain how certain things work. I suspect what Zotoaster is after is the actual evidence to support your models and have what you're basing your ideas present.

We are talking about the difference between the science of a bedroom coder and the science of many, many scientists making years and years of studies, testing their hypotheses and theories through and through, people challenging them, trying pull and stretch each theory with many peer-reviewed studies and before making any actual claims they make sure they've got the back up (hence here, they're not calling it the Higgs Boson, because they haven't yet gathered the data to back it up).

It's not to say that you're wrong (as I think any scientific mind should not close itself off from alternative ideas) but you can see why it's hard to trust and certainly difficult to substantiate with enough back up to prove any current models of physics to be wrong.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:29 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 19:30
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Well of course you would want to see it. All you have to do for now is know what I am making, and wonder about an easy solution to physics, and maths. You should ask yourself if the Universe would start with something that just bumps itself together? If the universe does just bump itself together then that's all you need to program.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 19:54 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 19:56
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I don't think you get it. If you don't have any evidence, predictions, tests, any of that, then you're not using the scientific method, and avoiding to show anything means you should probably avoid talking about it altogether.


Now to bring the discussion back on track:

If the Higgs field is everywhere, and the Higgs Boson has mass, does that mean empty space has a slight mass? I have heard every point in space has energy (and mass and energy are different manifestations of the same thing), but I thought that was photons and other stray energy filling space. Maybe one day people will figure out to harness energy out of nothing!

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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DeadTomGC
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 20:30
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Well, the boson is just a type of distortion of the Higgs field. This means that the distortion is the thing that causes the existence of mass. The field itself does not have mass. Or, at least it does not need to have mass.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 22:09
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Quote: "Well, the boson is just a type of distortion of the Higgs field. This means that the distortion is the thing that causes the existence of mass. The field itself does not have mass. Or, at least it does not need to have mass."


Thanks! There are others who have the same doubts as me, and whoever posted this info in Wikipedia certainly has the same doubts as me...

Quote: "the Higgs mechanism is often credited with explaining the "origin" or "genesis" of mass.[4] But there is some doubt as to whether the Higgs mechanism provides sufficient insight into the actual nature of mass. As Max Jammer puts it, "if a process “generates” mass it may reasonably be expected to provide information about the nature of what it “generates” as well".[5] But in the Higgs mechanism, mass is not "generated" in the particle by a miraculous creatio ex nihilo, it is transferred to the particle from the Higgs field, which contained that mass in the form of energy, and "neither the Higgs mechanism nor its elaborations...contribute to our understanding of the nature of mass".[6]"


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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 12:10
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Quote: "There is no reality in the Standard Model or the LHC claims, or the maths which is mostly backwards."

... You don't see how this makes you sound like a crazy person?

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 12:15 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 12:26
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Quote: "... You don't see how this makes you sound like a crazy person?"


I see that science is so far out I sound like a crazy person. But maths tends to work quite well backwards...

3 + 4 = 7

4 + 3 = 7

...and that sort of mistake has consequences in your physical understanding of the Universe. Such as Einstein's Cosmological Constant which is now being reversed. I said it had to be reversed many years ago.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 12:55
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Your youtube videos are generally disliked, and no one can make sense of or agrees with your posts. Your website and your descriptions have a feeling similar to videos on homeopathy, "memory in water", and jesus riding dinosaurs. You have no evidence. Anything you may know and anything interesting you may have come up with will probably be locked inside your head forever.

If science is far out by making superbly insightful, accurate, and logical predictions, I don't want to be anything but far out.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 13:22 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 13:25
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No of course you want to be with the in crowd, that's a psychological flaw. That's the flaw that has made science backwards. All scientists want to agree with the in-crowd. So Newton was the first to get the physics backwards, then everyone followed. Einstein followed,and got the cosmological constant backwards. Gravity has always been backwards, and so has mass.

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Kezzla
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 14:46
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This whole higs boson thing is very interesting... I am very open to new theories. However, the standard model keeps my feet on the ground(please excuse the pun)

it is an exciting discovery... is it certain?
is it real?

its not another scientific miscalibration is it? aka faster than light travel.

I am not the sharpest tool in the shed so far as science goes. I have a keen intrest and try to keep up. is this an actual discovery or another false alarm?

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 15:09 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 15:14
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Quote: "I am not the sharpest tool in the shed so far as science goes. I have a keen intrest and try to keep up. is this an actual discovery or another false alarm?"


If I post from a scientific perspective this particle is a Boson, and it matches a Higgs Boson. It's spin needs to be determined before anyone knows for sure what it is. It decays into two photons, that is a good sign for the Higgs. It is not completely know if it is the Standard model Higgs Boson, or the Super-Symmetry Higgs Boson. That depends on the spin. Both are a bit different. If its spin is 0 then it is a scalar particle, the first scalar particle ever to be discovered.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 15:48
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Quote: "No of course you want to be with the in crowd, that's a psychological flaw. That's the flaw that has made science backwards. All scientists want to agree with the in-crowd. So Newton was the first to get the physics backwards, then everyone followed. Einstein followed,and got the cosmological constant backwards. Gravity has always been backwards, and so has mass."


No, what scientists rely on is evidence and things that can be tested and applied, many of these 'backward' theories have practical and functional applications and show themselves to be accurate. They are tested through and through and are scrutinised to heavy detail. If scientists wanted to be the 'in' crowd, then they'd be telling us it's a Higgs Boson instead of saying, "hang on a minute media! Lets gets the facts first." Often or not scientists have had to stand up against the in-crowd, because it's not what the in crowd believes to be true, it's also how science evolves and develops and becomes stronger, rather than hanging on to dated principles and ideas. Heck, even Newton is dated, because how we understand physics has long since developed since he started talking about it.

A true scientist when making claims will be able to offer back up and to be able to substatiate anything they say to be true with evidence. As a writer, we have a similar concept in the world of writing, it's called, "showing not telling". One can tell a person anything, but it won't be very convincing unless you're capable of showing them.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 15:53
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Quote: "No of course you want to be with the in crowd, that's a psychological flaw. That's the flaw that has made science backwards. All scientists want to agree with the in-crowd. So Newton was the first to get the physics backwards, then everyone followed. Einstein followed,and got the cosmological constant backwards. Gravity has always been backwards, and so has mass."


You're so wrong about this it's unbelievable. First of all, when an idea makes sense, yes, people get on the bandwagon, but there's always, always people who will disagree. And that's a good thing, because both groups will try really hard to prove they are right, and hey presto, the one who is right ends up victorious. You're just gutted because you're in the losing team.

As for Newton getting it "backwards", I don't even know how you can say that. Newton was one of the greatest scientific minds to ever exist. He unified gravity on the earth and in the solar system, he invented calculus, all before he was 26. His theories are so accurate that space agencies like NASA still use them to navigate space. There are some small inaccuracies though, which Einstein fixed using general relativity. Cosmological constant? Fine, he made a mistake with that, but he was still right about everything else, and if you're gonna be so preoccupied with his mistakes then you're gonna miss the truth right under your nose.

This is not about "psychological flaws", this is about hard facts and science, and all you've done is make yourself look crazy by dissing some of the greatest minds in history, and shown nothing of your own work.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:02 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 16:06
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You wish. None of it makes sense to me, apart from the psychological aspect of being in the in-crowd. You want attraction, you get attraction in your formulas. Gravity is not attraction, neither is magnetism. Hence you have the cosmological constant backwards, and some creepy Dark Matter.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:15
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Quote: "You wish. None of it makes sense to me, apart from the psychological aspect of being in the in-crowd. You want attraction, you get attraction in your formulas. Gravity is not attraction, neither is magnetism. Hence you have the cosmological constant backwards, and some creepy Dark Matter."


I think you have a psychological flaw.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:16 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 16:17
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I think you have a psychological flaw."


... so does the rest of the science community. It's not an insult to me though. It's an insult to science.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:20 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 16:22
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Saying gravity and magnetism are not a form of attraction and not even attempting to back it up is an insult to science. You've put more effort into trying to falsify standard knowledge, and put exactly 0 effort into trying to prove your "theories". Science has not got it all wrong, you do. If you were right, you'd be able to back it up. You can't prove your argument by doing a bad job of trying to disprove someone else's. You have to actually show something, and you haven't, so don't be surprised that nobody takes you seriously.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:24 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 16:28
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Put a bucket under a waterfall, and say that the bucket is attracted to the Earth. That's what science does. Then science says that the bucket has a mass that is itself, and the force of the waterfall. And the bucket is an electron.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:27
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Ok, so what's pushing the waterfall down? And what's pushing whatever's pushing the waterfall down? Is it turtles all the way up?

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:29
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Quote: "Ok, so what's pushing the waterfall down? And what's pushing whatever's pushing the waterfall down? Is it turtles all the way up?"


The water flow, which is gravity bumping itself along, curving space towards the Earth... Spacetime.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:30
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So, Einstein was right then? Cool.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:31 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 16:36
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Quote: "You wish. None of it makes sense to me, apart from the psychological aspect of being in the in-crowd. You want attraction, you get attraction in your formulas. Gravity is not attraction, neither is magnetism. Hence you have the cosmological constant backwards, and some creepy Dark Matter."


Then substantiate your claims. If you are right and scientists are wrong you ought to be able to point us to this evidence rather than making blanket claims. Without back up, you can just say anything and it'll just be as substantial as the next claim, heck you can try to piece together as much logic as possible, but the best logic can do is make predictions (and they can be accurate or inaccurate). This is the main difference between what you're saying and what scientists say and generally I go for the claims that have lots and lots of backup vs somebody who's just telling us that it's all wrong, the latter of which isn't scientific.

Generally I tend not to tell anybody that they're wrong, I accept the possibility that you may even have the right answer, because I am open minded, but its validity is minimal because you've not really got a lot for us to go on, especially in comparison to the many scientists out there. If what you say is true, if you're really a scientific genius who has cracked the theory of everything (generally it's not considered a theory if its hasn't been tested over and over with plenty of evidence to back it) then you could change the face of science forever. However, it seems what you do have is a hypothesis.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:33
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Quote: "So, Einstein was right then? Cool."


Apart from getting it backwards.. yeah.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:34
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Quote: "Apart from getting it backwards.. yeah."


Ironically, that's a backwards statement in itself.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 16:38
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Quote: "Ironically, that's a backwards statement in itself."


Do you wish to keep this quote, or delete it?

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 17:54
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Pincho, you're coming off as an "I'm smarter than everyone here AND all of the world's scientists!" type of person, and that's not a good thing.

My knowledge of physics is limited. Never really started looking into them until after I graduated high school. However, I can still tell you that as stated multiple times before me, all of the theories you think are "wrong" or "backwards" have stood the tests of time. They've been tested over and over again under varying conditions and they always come out right.

Unless you can provide evidence (actual, physical evidence of your claims), I'm going to discount your ideas. It's nothing personal, it's just that the whole point of science is to actually back up your claims with legitimate facts.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:15 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 18:21
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Quote: "Pincho, you're coming off as an "I'm smarter than everyone here AND all of the world's scientists!" type of person, and that's not a good thing.

My knowledge of physics is limited. Never really started looking into them until after I graduated high school. However, I can still tell you that as stated multiple times before me, all of the theories you think are "wrong" or "backwards" have stood the tests of time. They've been tested over and over again under varying conditions and they always come out right.

Unless you can provide evidence (actual, physical evidence of your claims), I'm going to discount your ideas. It's nothing personal, it's just that the whole point of science is to actually back up your claims with legitimate facts. "


Science has never proved attraction. Science doesn't know what Gravity is. Science doesn't know what magnetism is. Science doesn't know what mass is. Science admits that it doesn't know. But still uses the word attraction for Gravity, and Magnetism. I use the words that Gravity is a bump force, magnetism is a bump force. Mass is a flow force. We are equally stating physics as having properties, however my physics are visible in nature, and attraction isn't visible in nature. I am using physics that exist in nature, and can be seen. Like a game of football, or a boat in a sink moving towards a plughole. You can see my physics in action. You can't see attraction, or pull anywhere on Earth. It is always an invisible force. I use water as my example of spacetime, science uses backwards maths. The plughole according to science attracts the boat towards it. According to science the curve into the plughole is the bending of spacetime. It's all backwards. The curve into the plughole is the flow, and only bends because that is the area of least resistance.

The things that you think have been proven have never been proven. They are the words of Newton. Just words.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:23
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There's no hope for him guys.

To a Mod, can we lock this thread before it turns into more flamebait?

I should've known this topic could have caused some issues.

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Dar13
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:26
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Quote: "Unless you can provide evidence (actual, physical evidence of your claims), I'm going to discount your ideas. It's nothing personal, it's just that the whole point of science is to actually back up your claims with legitimate facts. "

I agree with Yodaman. I just googled Pincho Paxton, and found this thread(link) on another forum. It's 1000 posts of Pincho defending his 'theories' against basically everyone else on that forum.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:26
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Quote: "They are the words of Newton. Just words."


Speak for yourself. "Just words".

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:27
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Quote: "I agree with Yodaman. I just googled Pincho Paxton, and found this thread(link) on another forum. It's 1000 posts of Pincho defending his 'theories' against basically everyone else on that forum."


There are hundreds. I am up against 7 billion, not just a forum.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:29 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 18:30
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Quote: "Speak for yourself. "Just words"."


But at least visible in your own home. Why should everything that is invisible suddenly reverse physics?

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:31
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Are you seriously trying to claim that because we can't physically see a force at work it doesn't exist? Seriously!?



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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:32
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No, you're just being a hypocrite. You accuse Newton of using "just words" and nothing to back it up, when in fact that's exactly what you're doing, and trying to excuse yourself by saying "but at least I'm right!".

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:33
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Oops. I see I misread your water example.

But it still sounds like you're trying to say that because we can't see it, it doesn't truly exist (in the way the theory states).

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:38 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 18:43
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Quote: "No, you're just being a hypocrite. You accuse Newton of using "just words" and nothing to back it up, when in fact that's exactly what you're doing, and trying to excuse yourself by saying "but at least I'm right!"."


I don't see why Newton's first words were attraction when the logical thing to do is use examples that you can see. Water carries a boat to a plughole, that's an example that you can see. Newton would say that the plughole attracts the boat to it. Why did he suggest the opposite to reality? Why did Newton come up with an imaginative idea instead of existing physics?... because he couldn't see it, so he guessed. He had a 50/50 chance of getting the direction right, but got it wrong. The Earth doesn't attract the apple, the apple flows with Gravity into the Earth. The force is local to the apple, right next to the apple.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:48
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Right, Einstein already came up with the space-time continuum in general relativity. You're too late for that. Besides, you said he too had it backwards earlier, even though you seem to agree with him.

Show us some math. Show us some facts. Some evidence. Not "just words".

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:52
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Pincho, stop filling this thread with your mindless nonsense.
This is about the Higgs Boson, not about your insane crackpot theories cobbled together on a wikipedia/internet diet of modern physics.

Just because you believe you are correct doesn't make yourself so. If you want to be taken seriously, back up your hypothesis with evidence. Otherwise your drivel holds equal weight to people who are convinced they were abducted by aliens.

If you haven't got any solid proof for your hypothesis, then just stop, because you are derailing this thread.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 18:53
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Guys, what you don't realise is that Pincho realised he must now contain Higg's Bosons, and therefore dubbed himself God above all men...
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 19:00 Edited at: 7th Jul 2012 19:01
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Quote: "Right, Einstein already came up with the space-time continuum in general relativity. You're too late for that. Besides, you said he too had it backwards earlier, even though you seem to agree with him."


If you reverse the bending of spacetime to create gravity you get...

The flow into the Earth from Gravity bends spacetime...

... that's a plughole... see the curve around the plughole?

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 7th Jul 2012 19:02
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Pincho, last warning. Stop.

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Pincho Paxton
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Years of Service
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Joined: 8th Dec 2002
Location:
Posted: 7th Jul 2012 20:15
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Quote: "Pincho, last warning. Stop."


Ok. So the Higgs...

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Benjamin
22
Years of Service
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Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 7th Jul 2012 22:27
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Is Pincho one of those people that says "I don't believe in science"?



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