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Geek Culture / Interesting Question about MS From the BBC

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Nateholio
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 12:20
Here's what the BBC posted on Facebook....

"Is Microsoft too big? This is Dan Damon and World Update. We'll talk to Kirk Eichenwald, Vanity Fair writer, who says Microsoft needs to be broken up - the company has lost its way and doesn't know how to motivate its employees. Apple's iPhone alone generates more income than all Microsoft products put together. Have you stopped using Microsoft products? Will Windows 8 make a difference? Will Microsoft be able to break into the smartphone market in a big way? Let us know your pro- and anti-Microsoft stories."

I say let what's left of the free market decide. If MS is too big for its own good then the smart thing for it to do would be to split itself. Of course this doesn't always happen, GM is a great example. If MS is doing just fine then it will continue on as-is. Perhaps the nightmare for people like myself could occur...Apple taking over MS. It's a longshot, but anything can happen.

What say y'all?

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Keep your Hope and Change, I choose individual Liberty!
mr Handy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 12:59 Edited at: 10th Jul 2012 13:02
iPhone 4S 32Gb costs $750
Xbox 360 4Gb costs $300 even plus Win7 HP 150$ = 450$

And iPhone series milking customers by releasing same thing but 20% cooler each time for many years.
Xbox 360 is as is. Maybe accessories.

So it makes no sense to compare it. Pf.

«It's the Pony, pony me this, pony me that» — Bronies
«I sell apples and apple accessories» — Applejack
Kezzla
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 13:04
Quote: "Apple taking over MS"

I got a cold chill down my spine when you said that...

I was always under the impression that MS was just waiting and letting apple spend its money developing a great market and products, letting them work out the bugs and integrate it into society... then MS steps in at the last minute and makes a better cheaper clone.

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
mr Handy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 13:39
Quote: "MS steps in at the last minute and makes a better cheaper clone"

You mean like Xbox after PS?

«It's the Pony, pony me this, pony me that» — Bronies
«I sell apples and apple accessories» — Applejack
nonZero
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 13:49
If Apple is making a bigger turnover, it's just coz they charge so much for their stuff. If they took over MS, I can see the Linux and ReactOS userbase increasing dramatically. I say let Microsoft be. Windows is still the most popular OS globally so I think there's no fear of an Apple takeover. But, as you say, "anything can happen"...


OS statistics, from Wikipedia

Zotoaster
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 13:55
Apple gets too much flak in my opinion. Is their stuff to expensive? Yes. But is it high quality technology? Absolutely. Their products are excellently built whether you like Apple or not.

Gotta remember that Apple isn't one single entity. As a business, Apple is quite extortionate. But as a tech company, they really do build neat, good looking, efficient, robust stuff. Gotta give them their due. They wouldn't be in this position without some clever tech and some clever business, and a knowledge of how humans work.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 14:46 Edited at: 10th Jul 2012 14:47
Microsoft has never really come up with something new. Windows was taken from The Amiga or something, I can't remember. But it wasn't original. If you use old ideas, you end up with a company that makes old ideas. You need a boss that over-rules the boss to get new ideas.

Phaelax
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 15:28
Quote: "Windows was taken from The Amiga or something"



Quote: "In 1988, Apple sued Microsoft for copyright infringement of the LISA and Apple Macintosh GUI. The court case lasted 4 years before almost all of Apple's claims were denied on a contractual technicality"


I remember hearing it was possibly taken from somewhere, but I had to look it up.

Also, if I recall correctly, Apple surpassed MS last year in terms of wealth.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 15:31
Wasn't it Xerox?

Cheers

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 15:39 Edited at: 10th Jul 2012 15:42
Well the Amiga also has a workbench which looked similar. The PC had a black text screen. That's all I know.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 15:51
Microsoft has successfully managed to become completely irrelevant.

mr Handy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 16:09
Windows is cheap OS for real gamers, that's all I need to know. And I'm thankful.

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Kezzla
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 16:14
Yeah, I prefer the Windows OS. and I like the value for money on hardware... and the ability to easily upgrade components.

(cheap shot)-> apples shortcut keys are all backwards

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
bitJericho
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 16:34 Edited at: 10th Jul 2012 16:34
Quote: "Windows is cheap OS for real gamers, that's all I need to know. And I'm thankful."


Linux would be much simpler for gamers and developers if it were actually the dominant OS. It's crazy simple to develop on Linux (of course it depends on the distro).

Windows still wins because businesses are scared of foss (though that seems to be changing). Once the business world changes over, I suspect the retail world will change with it.

mr Handy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 17:06
Quote: "Linux would be much simpler for gamers and developers"

i'm not sure - if it's true then why for whole this years nobody worldwide made a linux-exclusive game masterpiece?

«It's the Pony, pony me this, pony me that» — Bronies
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TheComet
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 17:37
Quote: "Wasn't it Xerox?"


They invented the mouse, Steve Jobs saw it and created his own.

TheComet

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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 17:39
Quote: "I suspect the retail world will change with it."


Unless you're Cash Converters, when I worked there they were still using DOS. Love how the 'networking' was taking a floppy disk from one end of the store to the other.

Quote: "Apple gets too much flak in my opinion. Is their stuff to expensive? Yes. But is it high quality technology? Absolutely. "


Pretty much, get the same sort of quality like for like on a PC and you're actually paying a similar price. When doing comparisons, I found PC all-in-ones of a similar price and spec to iMacs and even an Alienware for £1,800 when the equivalent spec MacPro was £2000, at least at the time of checking, but the MacPro had the advantage of being able to store a lot more RAM if you wanted to upgrade.

For the spec of that Alienware, I could probably get an Acer for cheaper, but that Acer is probably more likely to go wrong.

Throw in ThinkPads...if you're talking T-Series, then you're welcome to literally throw it. They're more expensive like for like but then you're getting what you pay for.

I often use this anecdote. 2 laptops bought the same day (nearly 4 years ago), 1 Acer, the other a MacBook. Both cost £700. The Acer? Much higher spec. Sounds like good value for money. Over a year later, Acer dies (and no longer under warranty). Over a year ago, Acer was replaced with a £420 ThinkPad, much lower spec (roughly matches the spec of the Mac bought a couple of years before). The same Acer was going around for about the same price as the ThinkPad too. The state of the MacBook? It's still running and still hasn't had a single problem with it. Total money spent by me: £1120. Total spent by Mac user (sister): £700.

Of course, this is just an anecdote, Mac aren't infallible and some have gone wrong. But the anecdote should illustrate what it's like to base value for money on spec alone and not take into consideration the brand quality or the model quality. I say model quality, because some companies, like Lenovo do cheaper versions of laptops, for example, my ThinkPad is a SL series, it's still well built, but doesn't match the quality of a T series of the same spec.


Anyway, I think the OP is interesting. I'll be honest and say I don't like the direction MS is taking at the moment, Windows 8 doesn't sound like it's going the way it should. They're pretty much giving up on XNA, which makes me wonder about MS's future in the gaming market? Given they're taking the direction of development tools for their mobile platform and making Windows 8 very mobile orientated it looks like they're appealing to the market Apple is flourishing in. I hope I am wrong though. I'd hope they'd be putting the money into the markets they're already flourishing in, such as businesses and gaming (and I don't mean Angry Birds)

So maybe splitting MS up is a good idea, I mean you could have it split between each of their markets.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 17:43
They both borrowed from Xerox.

Kezzla
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 18:43
yeah, I can see Microsoft needing subdivision, but the actual company has so much weight behind it with its combined finances and brand security that I think It will stay as one company.

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 10th Jul 2012 22:50
Quote: "i'm not sure - if it's true then why for whole this years nobody worldwide made a linux-exclusive game masterpiece?"

People have. "Fancy big-budget companies" (i.e., AAA) Target the larger market. They don't care if it's easier or not. However, from what I hear, Valve is porting their engine/games over to GNU/Linux. That might give GNU/Linux a boost.

On the point of being easier to develop for, it's a mixed bag. There are a lot of issues with it. In just the API, there isn't a clear (or sometimes existent) set of functions to do something that's simpler on Windows. An example of this is the event synchronization object which you must emulate (possibly with side effects) using POSIX Threads. (I'm not talking about the message queue, btw.) To retrieve the exact path to your executable, you have to do a readlink() trick with something like:

On Windows, the equivalent is:


Then there's the issue of a bunch of different standard installation systems, like dpkg, rpm, yum, etc. They all have their own methods of installation. If you want to be more user convenient, you have to support at least the most popular one. (I'm guessing dpkg.)

Then there are the drivers. The only time they ever work, for me, seems to be on laptops. The AMD provided catalyst drivers? Don't work on my desktop in Linux. (Works just fine on Windows though.) NVIDIA's drivers are probably pretty good. I haven't used an NVIDIA card in a while, so I can't say.

I like GNU/Linux. It's nice. The kernel used is pretty much irrelevant if driver support is available for whatever kernel. FreeBSD is nice too. But now we're back at Mac OS X, which has a modified FreeBSD/Mach kernel (Darwin or XNU or whatever). The Mac OpenGL drivers are pretty bad though. And Apple won't let the hardware vendors near 'em. (Seems strange that they believe they can do better and are failing miserably.) All bugs aside, there's the lack of support for OpenGL 4. Apple only supports core OpenGL 3 and OpenGL 2. No compatibility profile for GL 3, iirc.

Cheers,
Aaron

The Zoq2
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 01:18
I think the reason microsoft are as big as they are, is because they launched windows, before there was any any alternatives, there where macs, but for the companies that wanted to make computers, they had one choise and that was windows. (I may be incorrect but as far as I have been told, that is basicaly it) that lead to developers focusing on widows and PC's instead of the macs, which im guessing where a bit like the iphone today, hard to get a program "published" and apple want to controll everything that runs on there products.

Same thing with microsoft office, when they created it, it was a revolution because there where no programs like it, people get used to it and when alternatives turn up, people don't want to use them because they are used to microsoft word. And therefore microsoft can charge 100$ for a product, and they "teach" us microsoft word at school. While there are FREE programs out there, with the same features that noone uses, just because they arn't standard.
Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 01:23 Edited at: 11th Jul 2012 01:25
Yes I think Microsoft are too big. I think most large companies are too big, there's such an exponential strain added when growing a company, there's a reason companies like MS get called "business empires".

I'm a Linux user and we are starting to get more consideration with games and such - The last Humble Bundle was Linux-compatible for example and Steam is coming to linux. I'm quite shocked if that 1% is a recent statistic, I thought Linux was getting popular! I would have guessed around 9%. Interesting that a quarter still use XP, I think that was the best Windows for a while. I wonder how those statistics were gathered.

Shh... you're pretty.
Nateholio
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 01:25
Quote: "Same thing with microsoft office, when they created it, it was a revolution because there where no programs like it, people get used to it and when alternatives turn up, people don't want to use them because they are used to microsoft word."


Yeah that's where I am with Windows in general.Can't say I particularly care for it but most of my favorite programs will only run on it.


As far as the GUI/mouse thing...uh yeah, Apple didn't invent either of those. Light pens, they didn't invent those either. I honestly don't think they've invented much of anything. They just take an idea and shape the market with it or shape it to fit the market. As I always say, Apple is a marketing company with some hardware and software divisions hanging off it.

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Dar13
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 04:07
Quote: "I'm quite shocked if that 1% is a recent statistic, I thought Linux was getting popular!"

It is. It's called Android. And W3Schools says desktop Linux is ~5%, which is about appropriate.

Quote: "Same thing with microsoft office, when they created it, it was a revolution because there where no programs like it"

Not really. What happened is that they implemented little tricks in the operating system in order to help Office be better than the competition(WordPerfect iirc). Kinda like what they do/did with Internet Explorer.

Indicium
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 04:11
Quote: "Not really. What happened is that they implemented little tricks in the operating system in order to help Office be better than the competition(WordPerfect iirc). Kinda like what they do/did with Internet Explorer."


What sort of tricks?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
MrValentine
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 04:19
People eat at McDonalds... Over KFC and vice versa... Why do you think that is?

People prefer A over B when it comes to just about anything...

The reason why Windows is popular?

They thought about the end user very deeply... No matter what anybody says after this post... It is fact that they designed their interface to be user friendly and that is the sole reason it is the most wodespread OS... That and it is a business oriented system too...

I am not biased either I have used Ipods Ipads Iphones Imacs you name it Ive tried it... Top end low erm ish end Apple products and Almost every linux release sonce 2002 and even several other OS's and frankly nothing quite meets the flexibility of Windows... Also I have heard MS lobbied some manufacturers to work on their kit specifically... But thats just good negotiation and one heck of a business move! Whatever negative you can say about MS can be doubly said for any other company... So just shus with the hating... It gets nobody nowhere...

MrValentine
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 04:21
PS.

My last post was not directed at anybody but just a general message >_<

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 04:45
Quote: "What sort of tricks?"


They like to include Undocumented parts of the API. So their apps can do things we can't (as easily). There's some legitimate reasons for doing it, but it's effectively anti competitive.

Dar13
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 04:49
Quote: "What sort of tricks?"

I do believe they created hooks in the operating system that gave Office either extra memory or some kind of new functionality that other applications couldn't replicate. I can't find the link that told what happened exactly.

Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jul 2012 06:23
Xerox pioneered a lot more than just a mouse The pioneered the concept of a GUI, for one. A mouse with a GUI was unheard of at the time. Apple "borrowed" that from Xerox, and Microsoft "borrowed" it for Windows and OS/2.

I really enjoy Microsoft products like Windows and my trusty 360.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Jul 2012 16:58
Quote: "i'm not sure - if it's true then why for whole this years nobody worldwide made a linux-exclusive game masterpiece?"


Because nobody wants to target a game to 5% of the gaming public

But really, installing, uninstalling, and locating games in a default ubuntu install is lightyears ahead of windows.

DeadTomGC
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Posted: 16th Jul 2012 21:22 Edited at: 16th Jul 2012 21:26
Microsoft does not just rip off Apple. Instead, they take advantage of all the new and completely pointless markets that Apple has created. Microsoft really only make useful items. They don't try to make a whole new realm of pointless gadgets because they know that they will not be able to convince their customers that these gadgets are worth it(because they are not).

P.S. Apple has no right to exist.... (Anymore)


Bootlicker
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 10:29
wouldnt there be a law somewhere that prevents apple from taking over microsoft? I know that in the UK there is one that stops tesco, asda, sainsburys and all the other big supermarkets from buying each other. Maybe in the free market capitalist central america its different?

nonZero
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 11:32
I think the question is also could Apple buy Microsoft. I've been thinking about it and I don't really understand how the process of buying a company out works (coz I never paid much attention in high school - too busy saving the world, slaying dragons, defeating vampires, killing ogres, rescuing towns and maidens etc) but I thought the company can only be bought if it's "public" and if the buyer buys out the majority shares. So wouldn't that mean the MS fanboys could stop that if they saw Microsoft in trouble. They could form a "private" company, pool all their resources and buy the majority shares...Or did I catch the wrong end of the stick. Sorry if I sound stupid, accountancy wasn't my favorite subject and I dropped it for History (I think it was History vs Accountancy on the subject choices - I know I dropped something for History lol) the minute I hit Grade 8.

The Zoq2
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 12:16
Quote: "wouldnt there be a law somewhere that prevents apple from taking over microsoft? I know that in the UK there is one that stops tesco, asda, sainsburys and all the other big supermarkets from buying each other. Maybe in the free market capitalist central america its different?"


Im guessing they have some kind of law agains cartells and monopolys, wheter it affects buying a company I don't realy know...
MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Jul 2012 18:38
Well as far as I know BG owns the majority share and the likely only guy he would sell it to in Apple is now long gone...

But it would never happen as MS is bigger and has many sectors...

Apple is in majority a design lab...

Ms however on the other hand has research labs... Hardware development labs... Software labs... People labs... Some big rooms with servers labs... Massive contract rooms with big wig fortune 100-500 paperwork labs...

Frankly if they bought out MS they would not have enough contingency cash and practically grind to a halt...

It is not simply I have enough money so lets buy xyz... There is much more involved and companies like Apple need all the money they can get...

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