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Geek Culture / Colorado Aurora Tragedy.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 10:51
Suprised noone made a thread about this yet.

Yesterday, at the Batman Dark Knight rises premiere, a gunman started shooting people. 12 Were killed, and many were injured. I have no idea why someone would do this, especially since there where children there, and two were killed (9yr old girl and a very young baby). My condolences go to the families of those who were affected.

Please don't start a political/etc.. debate about this, as not to get this thread locked.

Thanks!

Putting the fun back into Fungus since 1984.
Hodgey
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 13:05
This is very sad news. My condolences to the families and friends as well. May the victims of this tragedy rest in peace.

I cannot understand how someone can be so heartless.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 14:54
Linkage.

This is pretty bad.

Cheers,
Aaron

Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 15:54
This is what happens when you make celebrities of psychopaths. When are the press going to learn that they only encourage things like this? This is a horrible tragedy but me knowing about it only endangers more lives, I can't do anything about it and I don't know the people involved so there's no reason for me to know, it's just encouraging more psychos to get fame this way.

Shh... you're pretty.
Norion
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 15:57
This is one of my 50 reasons to hate this planet =\

I wonder if this would cause another debate in America about people who own guns and other forms of weapons. Anyone remember that discusion ???

My condelence to the people who have lost somebody.


Martin.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 16:59
Quote: "This is what happens when you make celebrities of psychopaths. When are the press going to learn that they only encourage things like this? This is a horrible tragedy but me knowing about it only endangers more lives, I can't do anything about it and I don't know the people involved so there's no reason for me to know, it's just encouraging more psychos to get fame this way."


Nah, people are always going to go crazy and people are always gonna be killed. I think this is a terrible situation, but we can't blame the press or hollywood or anyone. It's just a statistical anomaly. If it wasn't for the press, we wouldn't be in solidarity against this guy.

What I find most baffling is that the FBI doesn't consider this to be a terrorist act. It considers many, many small, inconsequential things to be related to terrorism, but not this!

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 17:11 Edited at: 21st Jul 2012 17:23
Quote: "When are the press going to learn that they only encourage things like this?"

That's a mixed bag. On the one hand, if someone has set out to murder people, it's probably not because they woke up one day and just thought "Hey! This is a good idea. I'm going to do this." It's more likely a "gradual evolution" that happens throughout their lives. On the other hand, you have the "wannabe killers" who I imagine to be teens living with their parents. If there's a family structure and some general togetherness, they might watch TV together, sometimes. If the massacre is displayed and the parents (or guardians) show dislike for it, the teen might, possibly, potentially, maybe decide against it. If all of the teen's peers show dislike for it, and the teen isn't an outcast, then the teen is more likely to not want to do it. If the teen's an outcast anyway, and the thought has crossed the mind already, I doubt the news will have a noticeable impact, if any.

I don't believe the media influence as that strong based on personal experience. (Okay, so a sample set of one potentially biased individual does not science make... But still!) From as early as I can remember (4 years old or so) I always watched horror movies. Halloween, Friday the 13th, A Nightmare On Elm Street, Critters (which was more funny than scary, but still), "April Fools" (Don't remember if that's the actual name; ending was great), "Junior" (again, don't remember name), The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. And as time went on, I watched more and more horror movies. (I've yet to see Psycho... I should watch it. I think it's on Netflix.) Anyway, I'm only screwed up in my dark comedy (no pun intended, considering this company's main product). I have imperfections obviously, but I'm not going around slaughtering people. I've always been aware of things like the Columbine High School Massacre as well. I never thought "Oh hey, this is something I should be doing! My life will be so much better!"

TL:[/i]DR; I doubt very much that the media has that big on an influence over whether someone is killed or not. At least not over posts or news reports on this subject. And if you believe so, you posting is only giving this thread more popularity, which is thereby giving the story more popularity. Ergo, you're giving the story more popularity, thus you become the media. People are going to talk about this, it's human nature.

Quote: "I can't do anything about it and I don't know the people involved so there's no reason for me to know"

You're wrong. Knowing that this happens, you can be more active in your community to try and prevent the same thing from happening there. You can volunteer to help troubled teens so they don't turn into psychopaths, or get them the help they need if they are. You can educate people about the matter and [i]why
it's wrong if necessary. (e.g., they might be young children.) You know the name of that community. You can start a fund raiser or just donate so that the families can afford a funeral. All you have to do is get in contact with the locals. If you don't have the money to donate yourself, you can still setup a donation service for the families.

WHAT NOT TO DO: Set up a donation service so the families can get their money back to view the full movie.

Cheers,
Aaron

Kezzla
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 17:15
This is sad and regretful.

I feel for those effected by this event. I just hope that if nothing else, the best of the human races qualities shine at this time.

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 19:34 Edited at: 21st Jul 2012 19:35
honest question here: are these types of killing sprees (@ malls, schools, etc) an american notion?

i don't watch a lot of news, much less global, but i've never heard of such things occuring in other countries (including neighboring canada) while they are becoming more and more common here in the states.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 19:41
I've heard of many outdoor bombings and killings in other countries. e.g., I think there was one in Germany or Switzerland somewhat recently? (I don't quite remember.)

Cheers,
Aaron

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 19:49
That one in Finland, or Norway...worst in their history, but feels similar to this.

I think the problem is that you can have a guy in America better equipped than the police who patrol the streets. Some nut can rock out shotguns and assault rifles, tear gas, flak jackets, etc. This isn't just America, and isn't political about the gun laws.

I simply fear anyone more powerful than the law, because then they don't respect it.
bruce3371
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 20:50
RIP to the victims, condolences to the families.

I think many countries have had nutters who've gone on killing sprees. We've had our share of them in the UK, e.g. Hungerford & Dunblane.

It just seems to be done on a much bigger scale in the US, which is understandable, since the population is that much larger.

As for the media, IMO the media's impact/influence is proportional to the willingness of the consumer to believe or take on board whatever is printed/broadcast etc...

Nateholio
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 20:52
Quote: "...and isn't political about the gun laws.

I simply fear anyone more powerful than the law, because then they don't respect it. "


I'm not gonna answer this one because it'll get more political than you've already made it after saying it's not political.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 20:57
Happens in other countries, it seems we hear of it more happening in the US and the US has a bigger reputation for it. Actual stats? I do not know.

Nateholio
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 21:03
Seems the local police have accomplished a controlled explosion in the shooter's apartment.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-james-holmes-booby-trapped-apartment-20120721,0,4846867.story

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mr Handy
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 21:11
It's interesting how did police know about booby-trap. I don't think that it is usual thing.

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Nateholio
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 21:26
It's pretty much standard to check the residence of people who do this for booby traps. They go to the residence to gather evidence and sometimes find it's rigged.

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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 21:59
We live in pueblo colorado, very close to where this happend,its like colibine all over agien here,its sad and all over the news non stop. All we can do is pray for the families and wish them well,People here are all sad and are showing it,wish colorado well,thanks.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 22:30
On the debate about the press, sometimes it helps. If you have heard about this last week, in a matter of days this guys face is on billboards in several states and all over facebook. I didn't know her, but a friend who was staying at my place did. Because of the press (and word of mouth), FBI might get their guy much quicker than usual.

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ionstream
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 22:47
This was the last thing I was expecting to read yesterday morning. I can't imagine what it must have been like for the people in that theater. The guy had an assault rifle (semi auto), a shotgun, and two pistols, and used tear gas to presumably keep people from running away as best as possible. This is basically a worst case scenario as far as shooters go - his goal was simply to kill as many people as possible, for no reason whatsoever besides insanity. He was not a terrorist as there was no political goal or statement he was trying to make. He was purely a psychopath.

Truth be told, considering the kind of firepower this guy had, it really could have been a lot worse. I hope that the survivors are able to recover quickly and that the families of the can make peace with what happened in time.

Kezzla
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 23:38
Australia changed their gun laws after a gunman opened fire with a automatic rifle in a crowded restaurant in port Arthur Tasmania.

now automatic and semi automatic weapons are banned and you need a good reason to get a gun license.

Australia still has shootings, but it tends to be bikie related and fewer people die.

I don't see any reason for an automatic weapon outside of military use.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 21st Jul 2012 23:58
Quote: "honest question here: are these types of killing sprees (@ malls, schools, etc) an american notion? "
It seems that way, and it seems even more specific to Colorado. In fact, my school, Platte Canyon High happened to have a shooting in 2006.
Quik
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 01:27 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 01:28
Quote: "When are the press going to learn that they only encourage things like this?"


Isn't that.. GOOD for the press? More crazy = more crazy news = profit in terms of money.


On my note here: This is very very sad, and I usually do feel.. "detached" emotionally when stuff happens far away - I'm sure you people understand. However, this did for some reason touch me - more than usual, people should never die like this, it's horrid, it really really is.
I feel sad for families hwho have lost loved ones.
Quote: "honest question here: are these types of killing sprees (@ malls, schools, etc) an american notion?"


Funny you woul say that...
killing spree in norway - teenage-ish CAMP, not counted?
school killing spree in FINLAND, not counted?
I dunno, just because US is a more world wide favorable source of news, us other people all of a sudden becomes forgotten..?



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Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 01:39 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 01:41
Quote: "us other people all of a sudden becomes forgotten"


never said that (ie, we can't forget what we never knew), but did say:

Quote: "i don't watch a lot of news, much less global"


US news generally never mentions how what happens here "fits" in a global context. hence, the question. and, with help from your response, the answer.

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Indicium
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 02:44
Quote: " He was not a terrorist as there was no political goal or statement he was trying to make."


That's not the meaning of terrorism. He's a terrorist and should be treated as such. Life in prison. Lock him in a room and throw away the key, give him a slice of bread and a cup of water each day for the rest of his life.


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 02:51 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 02:52
Quote: "ter·ror·ist/ˈterərist/
Noun: A person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims."

Quote: "ter·ror·ism/ˈterəˌrizəm/
Noun: The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."


Cheers,
Aaron

Indicium
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 02:53
Not necessarily.


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 02:58 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 02:58
Quote: "Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or, ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians). Some definitions now include acts of unlawful violence and war."

You said
Quote: "That's not the meaning of terrorism."

But there are multiple definitions saying it is. And a few definitions saying it's usually referred to that way but can be used in a more general sense, as quoted above.

Regardless, I agree that the guy should be punished. Our thoughts on what that punishment should be is varied. But to avoid political debate, I won't enumerate them here.

Cheers,
Aaron

Quik
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 03:13 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 03:16
Aaron Miller:

Quote: "Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, especially as a means of coercion. In the international community, however, terrorism has no universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition.[1][2] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or, ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians). "


source - Wikipedia... and considering this is pretty much what I have heard previous to your statement, i'd go with it. It's a pretty good wiki article too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

edit:

Quote: "WHAT NOT TO DO: Set up a donation service so the families can get their money back to view the full movie."


Nooo, but setting up a dnation service for those affected - would be a "good idea", people do get traumatized from that - dunno about cost on help with that, considering in sweden it would pretty much be "free", but I imagine, in a country whereas you need to pay for that...
would be nice for them to be able to get the help they would need imho anyway.
So: No, they shouldnt get money back for the movie - but for the ones lost, and traumatized, to cover that sort of costs.



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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 03:15
Terrorism is, by its terminology, the act of causing terror to innocents. It doesn't even necessarily have to involve killing, but often does. This is terrorism.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 03:52
Depends entirely on which definition you're choosing to use. Most dictionaries are descriptivist (based on usage) and these days, terrorism pretty much suggests political aims. But it does also mean a state of terror. Dictionary definition I picked out gave 3 definitions:

Quote: "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government."


Generally I consider somebody a terrorist if they go out to cause terror amongst groups of people. This guy fits the bill and arguably fits definition 2. It's arguing semantics, personally I prefer it to be a broader term, but I am not the President of the English language and how people decide to use it. To my mind, it's no different if somebody kills a load of people out of political aim or if they kill a load of people out of non-political motives, as at the end of the day, people have suffered all the same and that's the most important issue of all.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 04:05
Quote: "at the end of the day, people have suffered all the same and that's the most important issue of all."

Well said.

Quote: "dunno about cost on help with that"

Not sure. My first instinct is to check if PayPal has such an option "We want to use this account solely for donations for these people." Haven't looked into it.

Cheers,
Aaron

Thraxas
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 05:03
Quote: " Life in prison. Lock him in a room and throw away the key, give him a slice of bread and a cup of water each day for the rest of his life."


No way. Capital Punishment is the way to go here.

Poloflece
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 05:41
Quote: "No way. Capital Punishment is the way to go here."


I don't want to get this thread locked with political debates, but if that was to occur then his punishment would be over quickly, a mercy that he should not receive.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 05:44
Keeping him alive costs money. (Neutral statement. Do with it what you like.)

Cheers,
Aaron

kingofmk98
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 06:02
Yes this is a very bad tragedy. My condolences go to the families of those who were affected. One of my very close friends was there.

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Nateholio
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 09:02 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 09:04
Quote: "...with political debates...."


Thread went political near the middle with the Statists blaming inanimate objects for the crime. This is why I've been keeping my opinions to myself even though I'm itching to air them.

@king
In Aurora, or at the theater?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 14:58
Put him down or lock him up, I don't really see the difference.

Quote: "Terrorism is, by its terminology, the act of causing terror to innocents"


Link?



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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 15:45
Quote: "Thread went political near the middle with the Statists blaming inanimate objects for the crime. This is why I've been keeping my opinions to myself even though I'm itching to air them."


Of course, because if he went in with a kitchen knife and a two-by-four, he would have killed and wounded exactly the same amount of people.
Quik
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 18:26 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 18:27
Quote: "No way. Capital Punishment is the way to go here."


Well since I mdidnt start it i suppose ill go out here:

In my very honest opinion if you kill a person, on the basis that he killed - then you are a murderer aswell. Just because it's a "goverment" who commits the act, doesnt make it better on any aspect - death is horrible, no matter who it is. Why, just because he shot someone we can too? Yeah, if the goverment can then I surely can too can't I?

NOBODY, has the right to kill ANYONE. That's just insane.
You forget the fact that HE most likely also has a family, why on earth should they suffer the same, when they didn't do anything?


I'm in fact extremely happy not to live in america on that exact basis. Nobody can carry guns - which IMO is great, and we don't have "lifetime punishment", our lifetime punishment is 24 years (imo a bit too short) and we don't have Capital punishment, as a matter of fact, I would move out of my country if we had that. I do not support unnecessary murders - no matter what. the ONLY time where i support "killing", is in complete self defence, where it's the ONLY option left. We don't NEED to kill this guy, and doing so would ONLY result in MORE death, is that what we try to accomplish with our punishments? MORE of the same? yeah, let's have a crime where we rob the robbers, or rannsack their houses - because they did we can too, right?



Quote: "Keeping him alive costs money. (Neutral statement. Do with it what you like.)"


So life is only worth money? Right.
If ones life costs over x money, let's just kill them, we don't need em anymore.
Great.



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DeadTomGC
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 18:34
Quote: "Of course, because if he went in with a kitchen knife and a two-by-four, he would have killed and wounded exactly the same amount of people. "


The real people to blame here is, well, everyone. We have the right to carry arms. Not enough people use that. Therefore, there was little chance that anyone nearby had a gun.

If even one out of 10 people carried a gun, then that nut case would not have gotten nearly as far as he did. Problem is, very few people actually carry guns.

While many people are afraid of having more people carry guns, fact is, most people aren't crazy. I for one would feel much safer if several people around me had guns than if nobody did but the criminals were just less likely too. After all, I'd rather be in a two way fight than on the wrong end of a shooting gallery.


Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject of gun control...


CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 18:56
So you're blaming the victims for not going to a movie theatre packing heat? Wow...

He was also wearing a flak jacket anyway.
Quik
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 19:03
Quote: "The real people to blame here is, well, everyone. We have the right to carry arms. Not enough people use that. "


Not everyone wants to do that.
I know I wouldnt for the life of me do that. even less likely to actually fire it.



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kingofmk98
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 19:33
@Nateholio He was at the theater but at a different movie.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 21:28
Quote: "If even one out of 10 people carried a gun, then that nut case would not have gotten nearly as far as he did. Problem is, very few people actually carry guns. "


Low lighting + tear gas + lots of panic + confusion. I think it would have resulted in more casualties. They're not secret service. No calm nerves, visibility, good aim, focus. Regardless of whether gun laws are good or bad, I don't think if the public took it into their own hands in that situation would have made things better. Maybe if somebody had a clean shot of the guy, but you'd have to be lucky under those conditions.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 21:36
A clean shot of a guy wearing a bulletproof jacket and headgear...
Agent Dink
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 21:52 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 21:55
Burn the guy at the stake over a slow fire. That's slow enough.
Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 22:29
I believe in capital punishment, but I also agree that it would be too much mercy just to put him down. He should spend the rest of his live in general population with the other prisoners, as they would not treat him so well. Either that or, like was said, put him in a small room without books or a TV, and give him bread and water. How long would it take for him to feel bad about his situation?


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DeadTomGC
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 23:12 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2012 23:12
Quote: "In my very honest opinion if you kill a person, on the basis that he killed - then you are a murderer aswell"


Quote: "I know I wouldnt for the life of me do that. even less likely to actually fire it."


So, you are telling me that you wouldn't fire a gun at someone who is trying to shoot you?

Well, we have heard some people saying that they don't want to put a price on human life. You are putting an outrageously low value on life.

The fact is, there needs to be some measurable value of life, and there is. It's somewhere around 1.5 million US dollars from what I've heard.

Of course the value of a criminal life is significantly less. Therefore, when in a fight, I'd much rather kill the perp. than risk my own life or the life of others. Statistically, it is typically worth it (provided that the criminals are armed).

Sorry if this all sounds extreme, but it is actually not very extreme at all. That $1.5 million is calculated by observing what kind of pollutants and breaches in safety we allow in society. It is a natural thing to assign value to life. We do it all the time, however, people don't like it when we actually find out what the value is.

Quote: "So you're blaming the victims for not going to a movie theater packing heat? Wow...

He was also wearing a flak jacket anyway. "


More than that I am blaming everyone for not making such a thing common practice.

Quote: "Low lighting + tear gas + lots of panic + confusion.
"


Well, he had to walk in didn't he? I heard he used a rifle, so, I would expect people to stop him before he got to that point.


Quik
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Joined: 3rd Jul 2008
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2012 23:16
Quote: "So, you are telling me that you wouldn't fire a gun at someone who is trying to shoot you?"


I don't think I could no, out of "survival insntinct", maybe. Well, I can't say for sure - but i have a pretty high moral standard and I'm fairly sure that would come in the way.

Quote: "The fact is, there needs to be some measurable value of life, and there is. It's somewhere around 1.5 million US dollars from what I've heard."


Objectivly? Who decided that? The goverment? You? Someone else? Who can decide such a thing I must wonder.



Whose eyes are those eyes?

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