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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK future ?

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Juggernaut
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 01:04
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Is AppGameKit the future ? I mean I heard that AppGameKit will have capability of creating 3D games in coming months and with the option of building games for so many platform using desktops, mobiles etc. is it wise to learn AppGameKit rather than Dark GDK 2.0 or Dark Basic Pro ?

Will AppGameKit have all the features available in current Dark Basic Pro U77 ? Will there be any chance of enhancement in feature set ? If so in which areas ?
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MarcoBruti
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 01:48
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buy a crystal ball
Seriously, the future shall depend on the commercial success and on the enhancements TGC shall be able to offer.
At present I see some flaws on Tier-1 both at language level and stability. The impossibility to generate directly binary code for mobile platform, but having to build from Eclipse is a big problem for beginners, at least for Android. So it restricts the market. The price is too low (I paid it 50% more) and this is not a good sign. The TGC resources are very skilled but can be counted on the hand. Tier-2, in my humble opinion, is for hackers or professional programmers, not for hobbyist people wanting to produce in a speedy way apps to sell on the market. About 3D, it is important, but 2D is the target for most of programmers. Create a 3D game is far more difficult, time and resource consuming.
Key-points to make AppGameKit successful are 1) to enfore Basic Language adding more constructs and data type, 2)make platform more robust and 3) generate direct binary code at least for Android and iOS.
Anyway I invested on it and I'll continue to use it. At the end, the most important point is to...believe into AppGameKit and TGC, buy their products (is there a better encouragement?) and...cross the fingers.
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Juggernaut
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 02:04
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So, AppGameKit in its current state not capable of producing binary code that runs natively on the target platforms without requiring the user to download and install anything else ?

If I want to make a 2D game for Windows (XP, VISTA, WINDOWS7 and 8) using AppGameKit - then after compiling my code what does it produce ? Some intermediate format like bytecode in java or dot net which requires a runtime or virtual machine (VM) ?

I was hoping to lean more towards AppGameKit for its potential of producing games for wide variety of platforms but it seems the future is a bit uncertain from your words. The price is now 59 USD and they are also giving 20% discount on top of it. So it is available for $47.20 right now. I thought it would be a good investment since Dark Basic Pro and Dark GDK 2.0 are all tied down to old DirectX 9 technology - which will become extinct after 5 years or so - I thought AppGameKit being based on Open GL had a more greater chance of shinning bright in the coming years. Well I guess I am wrong even if they implement 3D in the current feature set.
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Hodgey
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 02:10
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Quote: "is it wise to learn AppGameKit rather than Dark GDK 2.0 or Dark Basic Pro ?"

What you should ask yourself is which is the right tool for the job. If you want to deploy across multiple platforms then AppGameKit is the better choice while if you just want to program for Windows DGDK/DBP would probably be better options.

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Juggernaut
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 02:13
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Quote: "while if you just want to program for Windows DGDK/DBP would probably be better options."


Why ? If AppGameKit implements 3D rendering features then what is the point in going back to Dark Basic Pro or Dark GDK 2.0 for developing games on Windows ?
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Hodgey
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 02:48
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AGK might be the better choice. You'll have to compare them when AppGameKit 3D is released.

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Dar13
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 03:02
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Quote: "Why ? If AppGameKit implements 3D rendering features then what is the point in going back to Dark Basic Pro or Dark GDK 2.0 for developing games on Windows ?"

Maturity. AppGameKit 3D rendering probably won't be as feature-rich and stable as the DBPro and DarkGDK 3D rendering.

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 05:44
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Quote: "So, AppGameKit in its current state not capable of producing binary code that runs natively on the target platforms without requiring the user to download and install anything else ?"


AGK produces a byte code file that is processed by 'binary code' executable. But there is no need for customers to download anything but the game posted in the App stores (Apple or Android).

When you build the app in Xcode or Eclipse, it builds the binary executable appropriate to the platform and everything gets packaged together.

As for stability? What software is ever stable in the initial releases? The AppGameKit developers have been extremely responsive when bugs are found and can be repeated (that is the important part) with code or setup that can be tested by them. There is an issues list where you can post bugs (http://code.google.com/p/agk/issues/list?cursor=agk%3A371&sort=-id). And there is a set of Community Testers (I am one) who watch this list and try to confirm the bugs. We have a site where information about the status is put up (http://www.tgcct.triassicassociates.com).

And, this forum is great for getting help.

A benefit of AppGameKit over Dark GDK and Dark Basic Pro (I've worked with both) is that it does not rely on Microsoft proprietary stuff (DirectX) and does produce things that work on multiple platforms.

The initial setups to get the Android (Eclipse) and Xcode setups can take a little bit of work. But, once done, you only have to worry about when things get updated.

I think AppGameKit has a bright future. There have been a lot of apps already put on the market in multiple platforms. It's pretty successful so far.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 12:33
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Compared to any other development package restricted to a single platform AppGameKit is a better choice if you ask me. The sooner you start learning AppGameKit the better. If you want to make money then the mobile platforms are the best choice IMHO.

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MarcoBruti
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 13:32
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Quote: "So, AppGameKit in its current state not capable of producing binary code that runs natively on the target platforms without requiring the user to download and install anything else ?

If I want to make a 2D game for Windows (XP, VISTA, WINDOWS7 and 8) using AppGameKit - then after compiling my code what does it produce ? Some intermediate format like bytecode in java or dot net which requires a runtime or virtual machine (VM) ? "


Before commenting forum mates' comments, I want to clear out an issue: you can produce binary for mobile platforms (apk files and similar for Apple) and for Windows, but Android apk generations is not a straightforward process and requires a little of application with Eclipse. At the end you have the binary, but it is not generated directly by AGK. AppGameKit produces a bytecode (like Java) that must be post-processed with some tools (Eclipse, NDK) in order to obtain the final executable. Of course that file contains both the interpreter and the bytecode in a single package. It is like to have a Java bytecode and virtual machine all embedded into a single file.
For Windows, you have nothing to do, but distribute the AppGameKit player all together with the bytecode (.byc) file, and that's all. Very easy. It is advisable to package all files into a single exe file in order not to expose your code. WIth DBPro you can do it inside the IDE.
Sincerely, if you want to program only with Windows, DBPro is free, it is already 3D and it is more mature. If you want to be multi-platform, AppGameKit is your choice, it is very cheap and if you have the patience of managing the building process following the guides and instructions, you could do it. But with shortcomings I underlined.

Quote: "AGK produces a byte code file that is processed by 'binary code' executable. But there is no need for customers to download anything but the game posted in the App stores (Apple or Android).

When you build the app in Xcode or Eclipse, it builds the binary executable appropriate to the platform and everything gets packaged together."


It is not so easy as you state. In fact there are a lot of post about that. And it is not so easy. I took an entire afternoon to set up the environment for Eclipse, following exactly the instructions. So for non-experts is not so easy.

Quote: "As for stability? What software is ever stable in the initial releases? "

Sorry, but I do not agree. AppGameKit is out since more than one year and half. It is pretty stable on many things, but there are a lot of bugs (try to make editbox work properly!) and undocumented features (someone understood how to make category and group work?)
And what about "process terminated..." that stops compilation? No-one is interested on that? I have 4000 lines project and at every compilation I have to insert a random line. Even from command line it is the same. I am a little bored...
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Hodgey
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 14:15
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Quote: "AGK is out since more than one year and half. "

It came out mid-August last year so it's not even a year old yet.

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MarcoBruti
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 15:11
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Ok, 1 year or not 1 year, it is not the question.
I bought AppGameKit on december 2011, when it was at 1.065 version, with Christmas offer). 1.065 was a rather good version.
The troubles came up with 1.07x, when a lot of new commands where added, withour proper testing AND documentation, probably upon strong demand from users.
Maybe it would have been better to slow down the command addition, testing and documenting the new commands more carefully, and have got a less aggressive release plan But it is a TGC commercial choice.
I recommend to buy AppGameKit to support TGC and the product itself, with the hope that it shall become a well established product, with an improved language, a good IDE, documented and working features, and a less complex building process.
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Juggernaut
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 15:31
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Quote: "Sincerely, if you want to program only with Windows, DBPro is free, it is already 3D and it is more mature. If you want to be multi-platform, AppGameKit is your choice, it is very cheap and if you have the patience of managing the building process following the guides and instructions, you could do it. But with shortcomings I underlined."


I am afraid Dark Basic Pro is not free in the true sense. Yes you can download the free version and learn things but you can not produce anything to sell commercially.

Another thing that hurts is that - The AppGameKit 3D feature set will not be as rich as Dark Basic Pro and Dark GDK 2.0. If AppGameKit is the future then why should it lag behind in feature set ? I agree there are hardware limitations on mobile platforms which makes a constrain in implementation of all advanced 3D and Physics features. But if somebody is using AppGameKit to create 3D applications or games for desktops - Windows and Mac - then one must be able to use advanced 3D features and Physics as present in Dark Basic Pro and Dark GDK - including the features available through use of existing plugins.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 15:34
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I agree with Marco that the rush for new features (after a lot of moaning from various people) has introduced some (though few) problems.

It might, perhaps, be wise to have the usual system of "Last stable version" and Beta versions with new features, clearly marked. That way the brave testers or anybody else could chew on the updates without complaining if there are problematic discoveries.

At least AppGameKit attempts to fix things. Microsoft rarely do, and sending in a bug report as a developer is total waste of time!

-- Jim
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Dar13
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 16:48
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Quote: "Another thing that hurts is that - The AppGameKit 3D feature set will not be as rich as Dark Basic Pro and Dark GDK 2.0. If AppGameKit is the future then why should it lag behind in feature set ?"

Because AGK's primary target audience is the mobile sector. Thus, AGK's features will reflect the limitations of those platforms. Elevating certain platforms above others fragments the codebase and eventually leads to a different product for each platform which is not the goal of AGK. If you want more power for desktops, go to DarkGDK 2.0 or DBPro which are geared almost entirely for the desktop audience.

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 16:52
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Quote: "So for non-experts is not so easy."


I did not say it was easy, just that you only need to sweat the big installation stuff once.

About stability, they have been adding features continuously over the past year, so some bugs are not surprising. It would be nice if the IDE didn't kark it periodically.

And I've never known any software outfit more responsive to dealing with problems. (They even resorted to asking for dedicated helpers from this community to help test and verify bug reports.)

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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MarcoBruti
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 17:11
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I agree 100% with everybody.
Only 1 question. Why do you write:
Quote: "I am afraid Dark Basic Pro is not free in the true sense. Yes you can download the free version and learn things but you can not produce anything to sell commercially."

DBPro Free is a full featured version (with ads) of DBPro, and you can generated executables to be sold...my DBPro games do not show any limitation...or is it a license problem? You may also buy add-on from TGC.
Anyway, buy AppGameKit when 3D shall be available! For sure, even if price will arise a little, its value exceeds a looooooot the price.
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Juggernaut
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 17:37
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Quote: "If you want more power for desktops, go to DarkGDK 2.0 or DBPro which are geared almost entirely for the desktop audience."


I cannot use Dark Basic Pro or Dark GDK 2.0 to produce executable for MAC. AppGameKit should get all the bells and whistles of Dark Basic Pro or Dark GDK 2.0 - otherwise we won't get to reach 3D desktops - Windows and Mac and maybe Linux in future fully.

Quote: "

Only 1 question. Why do you write:
Quote: "I am afraid Dark Basic Pro is not free in the true sense. Yes you can download the free version and learn things but you can not produce anything to sell commercially."
DBPro Free is a full featured version (with ads) of DBPro, and you can generated executables to be sold...my DBPro games do not show any limitation...or is it a license problem? You may also buy add-on from TGC.

"


I am afraid that the reality is just the opposite. How do I know ?
I asked TGC if I can create games using free version of Dark Basic Pro and sell them online or offline. They replied - "The free version of Dark Basic Pro is for personal use only and for learning the language. It cannot be used to produce anything that is sold commercially.

If you want an official confirmation - you can ask them yourself and let us all know what they said.

Quote: "
Anyway, buy AppGameKit when 3D shall be available! For sure, even if price will arise a little, its value exceeds a looooooot the price.
"


Yes I will buy if TGC promises full advanced 3D feature sets as good as Dark GDK 2.0 or Dark Basic Pro - if not better.
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bjadams
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 18:46
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AGK could be the future IF tgc will continue to fix bugs and implement changes with regular updates. After 1076 (that does not work well, many people are still using 1074) there is no news of a new version. There are a lot of little annoying things that could be easily fixed, but without knowing what and WHEN this is going to happen, its very FRUSTRATING for the end user.

And as other said, the continuing price drop is not a good sign.
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FakeBlood
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 19:47
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I just bought AppGameKit a few days ago. Last time I messed with a TGC product was years and years ago. I quit DBpro because it was bug city and nothing ever seemed to work right (might not be the case now)..

I absolutely love the programming side of AppGameKit, it is super simple.
But, I agree with others in that there should not be a single new function added until bugs are fixed and documentation is up to date.
Compiling to a mobile device is a total disaster and a nightmare, which is OK for pure native coding, but for something like AppGameKit it should be much easier.
For instance in Game Maker Studio you create an app, setup Android sdk options in the editor itself (only once and future apps are already set up), click "Create Application" and in seconds you have a working APK file.

Not sure how easy iOS is for AppGameKit as I don't currently have the dev license.
I also believe they would be better off to sell modules for iOS/Android etc.. to implement platform specific features.
If they were around $50 per module I'd pay to get Game Center/iAP etc..

AGK has the ability to be extremely awesome! I hope they take it there.
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 20:40
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iOS development is quite easy, either Tier (although the 1076 templates are not up to date for any platform, but lots of us have fixed them and we share).

For a Tier 1 Xcode setup, assuming Xcode 4, I've posted the steps to set up (updated from the Xcode 3 guide in the AppGameKit documentation). If/when you are interested, I'll post the most recent version I have of that (it exists in other posts, but you want to make sure to see the most recent one).

Compiling for Android is not really hard. The hard part is getting the initial environment set up. I, too, wish that were easier. I also have posted some scripts to help update projects and the android setup in general when AppGameKit puts out updates. Also available in other posts, but I'll post again if you need it.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 20:49
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I agree, TGC should focus on fixing the current bugs. AGK's current features are more than enough for most users. I also agree with FakeBlood. I would also like to see platform specific modules. Game center support would be great. The current price is too low. I can only hope they plan to have a separate 3D module at around $50. Getting people hooked at a low price and then selling separate modules would be great.

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bjadams
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Posted: 27th Jul 2012 23:52
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Ancient Lady, it would take only 1 hour of work for TGC to bring the T2 templates up to date with 1076. My impression is that they have no need for that themselves, so users are left on their own

I have fixed the iOS template as it involved only changing 1 line. But the Android templates will involve much more work. Anyone has updated the Android T2 templates to 1076 and shared them on some thread yet?
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 00:07 Edited at: 28th Jul 2012 00:08
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Attached is a zip file with the jni directory of my compiled/built 1076 android template. Replace the entire jni directory in your <androidpath>/AGK/IDE/templates/template_android directory.

I do not guarantee that it works, but I've updated all the relevant files (code and make and manifest) and it compiles in cygwin without error and Eclipse doesn't complain about it.

I am waiting for my new Android device to see if my built template (which should say "Hello World!") works.

My current Android device is broken (the connector will not connect and will not charge it properly).

EDIT: And I agree that it would be nice for them to update the templates. Or, at least, provide the guides to create them that they are suggesting they will do.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester

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polomint
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 10:33
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AGK is going to end up only working for iOS and Android, support for other devices is either poor or nonexistent.

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 11:07
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Quote: "AGK is going to end up only working for iOS and Android"


I assume you've noticed Mac and PC are supported?

What else is there???? Windows 8 looks like it's going to be a Vista-scale disaster, so no real need to panic over that. As far as I can see, the only serious gap at the moment is HTML5.

-- Jim
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bjadams
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 13:07
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i don't mind if AppGameKit only supports ios, Android, windows and mac os, AS LONG as they fix all the little bugs and problems that we have in 1076. If they do, AppGameKit will be PERFECT!

i don't need agk for html5 myself, i found the perfect sdk for html5 and i don't plan to change.

maybe they can integrate windows8 phone, so that they would cover a big part of all mobile platforms.
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bjadams
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Posted: 28th Jul 2012 13:10
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thanks Ancient Lady I will try your solution next week
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3d point in space
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 01:17 Edited at: 29th Jul 2012 02:03
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AGK is not a good tool for making window applications. Look, at my sprite tool it is made in Dark GDK. AppGameKit, I found is horrible for this kind of stuff. I also don't know if it will support windows 8. It might be dark gdk that will handle apps for that. If they do add three-d this product will make it competitive to Unity. Unity better watch out once AppGameKit goes three-d I bet AppGameKit will be better in developing 3d apps then Unity. Another advantage that Dark GDK has is that it will always be able to create better three-d games. You never be able to animated as smooth as Dark GDK can unless you have a very power-full device.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 06:23 Edited at: 29th Jul 2012 06:26
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Well, from my point of view Windows 8 will be a big flop, and Mountain Lion is very good.
Maybe the future is not a PC but a Tablet.
This are words from a person that always hated Apple.
On the Apple store you can find the same games you find on PC.
Anyway i agree with you all.
As i said in some posts, TGC must release a rock solid version (we can call final xxxx.xx) and keep it online until the new final rock solid version is released.

Some test version are appreciated but only to help the team to debug.
Well AppGameKit is great, it saved much time for me when i started in September 2011, but, coding after coding, my personal SDK is growing faster, and every time i start a new app i move it and it grow again.
Some times AppGameKit become the second choice, so i think they must fix the important request done by users. (for example the function i asked to change a single pixel color to another color. i'm doing it with Obj c)

As Marco said, we need fixes and requested functions before add new commands.
And i think 3D on mobile will never get to the top until the screen size is small (iphone).
The best games are always 2D or 2Diso.
Users want gameplay not graphics. (IMHO)

Long life to Steve!
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bjadams
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 10:38
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AGK competitive with Unity?!!!!!

They are 2 totally different products, aimed at totally different kind of programmers
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bjadams
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Posted: 29th Jul 2012 10:41
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one of the best selling ios games of all time is Infinity Blade and it's not a 2d game
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