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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Regarding Windows 8, Metro and AGK

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Sparrowhawk
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 02:27
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Hi,
I have recently downloaded the trial version of AppGameKit - And I'm attempting to learn the basics before my final decision as to purchase! My short attention span is a limiting factor when learning a programming language, haha

I'm just wondering how the new 'Metro' in windows 8 will effect the final export options (in the full version); will metro be implemented or will AppGameKit remain in the desktop 'half' of the new operating system - possibly ruling out those new 'surface' tablets (the ARM not intel ones!)

Its obviously unlikely to effect my decision as to buying the product - as I said my limiting factor is learning the code! (And possibly my current bank balance!)

This was mainly an point of interest, as I'm not sure how fundamentally different 'Metro' is codewise to traditional windows, I've had Windows 8 Developer Preview and customer preview and not altogether impressed with metro on desktops - hard to use with a mouse, but i see its potential on tablets... I don't have the latest release preview, as windows 8 somewhat surprisingly dropped support for my CPU (intel Atom) which i found very annoying! (an Acer Aspire 1 zg5 was one of my test machines; the others were HP desktops which had Pentium 4 - also not supported by release preview)

Sorry for the wall of text!

Thoughts?
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Doz
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 03:42
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As far as I know, 'Metro' apps need to be created in C#, ruling out AppGameKit for now. I believe this is partly for control issues and also to allow for cross platform development (Windows 8/Windows Phone 8) The Microsoft app store will also be the only distribution method for these apps, and that is your only option to get apps for Windows 8 RT devices running on ARM chips.

So, for now, that means that AppGameKit created programs will run in desktop mode on regular Windows 8 devices with x86 processors.

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Airslide
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 04:15
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Metro apps (a moniker I was just recently reading Microsoft may be trying to tone-down due to consumer-confusion) do not have to be created in C#.

Even if they did, any .NET language besides C# (VB, F#, C++/CLI etc) would presumably be perfectly usable. And when I had the Win8 developer preview, their updated documentation suggested that unmanaged languages (C/C++) were still ideal for game development.

Now, I imagine AppGameKit will still need at least some porting work, as I'm not sure how much of the traditional Win32 API is accessible from that side of the OS. But as far as I know, .NET is not a required technology, just an optional one.

Now, if you are asking whether the IDE will ever end up in the Metro side, that's an entirely separate issue.
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Doz
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 06:23
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Ah it would seem you are correct, now that I'm back at my home pc I took a look at the Microsoft developer sites. I found this page of code examples http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/windowsapps many languages supported.

I do still wonder how much control they plan to exert over their own app store, that could possibly be the real issue.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 10:50
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Surely a lot depends upon whether OpenGL is ported to Metro.

If not - HTML5 will probably be the best route (or possibly XNA?)

-- Jim
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bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 12:16
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No plans for OpenGL for now.

I want AppGameKit to support Win8 ARM tablets natively, as this will be an A platform.

If the only way would be HTML5, then I would personally opt for other HTML sdks, not AGK.
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Greenster
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 12:27
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Metro widgets can be done through WMI classing with any language that can load a library.

It's basically an extended icon managed my the new MS window management extension..
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Impetus73
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 14:55
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As long as the AppGameKit windows player is a metro app, our apps should be it also, since it's just integrating the bytecode file and media ?

----------------
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Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's.
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Sparrowhawk
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 15:49
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Quote: "As long as the AppGameKit windows player is a metro app,"


That was something else I was going to ask; when in the full version when the games are created, would anyone buying/downloading them first have to download the AppGameKit player app to their device - or would it be embedded in the final game?
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 16:43
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@Sparrowhawk, apps developed in the full version of AppGameKit (and your demo version, for that matter) are standalone. The end user does not need to buy/download anything else, just the app you are selling.

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Ancient Lady
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 20:27
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Metro has DirectX 11.1 (apparently) so a DX back-end should be fine.

-- Jim
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 20:30
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Except AppGameKit uses OpenGL and not DX. DX is Windows specificish/proprietary.

Unless Metro supports OpenGL, it is unlikely that AppGameKit will work with it.

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Ancient Lady
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 22:41
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DBPro is DX - so there's a lot of experience in TGC in using DX.

-- Jim
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 23:10
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Yes, but AppGameKit is NOT DX. That is so that it can be made to work on multiple platforms without worrying about the core graphics.

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Ancient Lady
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 23:27
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Yes - but conditional defines are possible!

-- Jim
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 23:30
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I'm sure they really want to have that particular headache.

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Ancient Lady
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2012 23:47
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If it's that or post a message saying "AGK doesn't work on Metro" I think I know which way they'll junp!

-- Jim
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bjadams
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Posted: 4th Aug 2012 10:05
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If you consider what Paul said about Playbook support, if the platform does not support opengl and c++ and compiles without problems on the first tries, then they won't support it.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th Aug 2012 09:50
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Microsoft are dropping the Metro name, apparently. They're being sued by Metro AG! Any guesses for the new name? I'm thinking Messtro!

-- Jim
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 05:17
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AGK apps run fine in Windows 8 on the Desktop side (just tried it on my new 'as yet unreleased' Ultrabook As for 'metro-style' apps, tune into my new blog over the next six weeks and find out if AppGameKit inside Metro-style store is even possible. I personally think it might be

Here is my blog: http://ultimatecodertgc.blogspot.co.uk/

Lead Developer of Dark Basic Pro, FPS Creator and AppGameKit (App Game Kit)
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XanthorXIII
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 19:20
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I don't expect Windows 8 to be well received for desktops at all. My roommate loaded it from Technet and I watched as he got frustrated with no start menu for the desktop. He ended up loading up a hack to add it back. Don't kid yourselves this is Vista 2.0.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 19:25
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did he know how to use it? I love the new start interface.

darkBIT TGC Torrent Tracker / File Server - AGK Chat: #agk : irc.devhat.net
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Mobiius
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 00:39
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I had windows 8 installed for about 10 minutes, hated it, and instantly put windows 7 back on. Great for tablets, bad for everything else.

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
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bjadams
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 00:51
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Windows8 will not be liked by programmers, developers and tech people.

But the common user, who will buy an ultrabook or a touchscreen laptop will love windows8.

Windows8 will be the OS to kill the old monitor.
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Sparrowhawk
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 02:55 Edited at: 18th Aug 2012 02:58
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The problem with 8 is that it has divided people so much - people hate it or like it - personally I hate the new start - especially when these 'apps' refuse to load on netbooks - the Acer i have is 1024 x 600 res...

It could have been so simple: a desktop edition or 'classic start' option - for the people who want the extra performance but without the 'start' - fine for touch, but try using that thing with a ball mouse (Outdated? - yes - but people still use them..!)

I can cope with all that - but what I really find annoying is the patronizing 'attitude' of the operating system. We arent all under 12 - I like an error screen - with hopefully a code which i can use to find out whats wrong and not:

Ooops Something went wrong (Sad Face)

or in the installation: "Hi" "Time to learn about your new Operating system" - RTM copy.

Give me windows 7 anyday... Can't imagine why Microsoft cut a classic start option - the hacks show how easy it would be - makes as much sense as dropping XP and Vista support with Office - and don't get me started on the problems I've had with that... (I like everything about it apart from the install and the all CAPS HEADINGS)

Anyway.. all that ^ was off topic sorry - I was interested in metro - as Windows 8 is a lie made to make people buy new stuff (as is all fashions!) and as everyone else is either following with it, or apparently dumping it - it may be worthwhile as developers taking advantage of it.

Oh dear. Another wall of text. I should keep my Microsoft Windows rants out of forums
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3d point in space
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 14:18 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 16:03
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They deffently need to put the old start button on windows 8. Then it will be fine have not tried it yet because I. Watched a utube video. I think that dark gdk might be better suited for apps in windows 8. Because it can make the same games I just don't like that box 2 d is not natively supported with dark gdk like agk is.
I bet the first app they make is something simular too the start menu. I bet apple hates windows 8 because they don't have some off the apps windows 8 has. Time to invest in Microsoft again.
I think that apple in the comming years will die off because app developers will not want to pay 99 dollars a year to develop. The bad news is that small developers will have a harder time competing with games. Made by companies but easier to get a job if you know how too program for all the operating systems.

I think Microsoft is free to develop apps for I think. They have the consumer pay for devoloping rather then the programmer. Which most developers support.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
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bjadams
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 17:00 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 17:04
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i think your "thoughts" are based on totally unfounded facts.

1 such fact is that developers have to pay $99 (for a registered company name) or $49 (for individuals) a year to microsoft to publish on their app market. and pay 30% to microsoft. exactly the same as with the apple app store!
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Mobiius
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 17:39
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Apple will never die off because they have an existing userbase (of die hard fanboys) who will never use windows products on principle, and windows 8 is horrible for non tablet use.

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
See what I live for here: [url]http:\\www.TeamDefiant.co.uk[/url]
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bjadams
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 18:32
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I think that you are missing a BIG point here. In the coming times, all laptops will be touchscreen based (like Ultrabooks). all desktop monitors will be touchscreens.... get the idea why win8 will work?
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 18:43
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Not everyone will want to invest in upgrading their hardware and software to use Win8.

And unless it proves to be 100% backwards compatible with Win7 (at a minimum) as far as existing apps are concerned, the number of people willing to switch will be even smaller.

Never mind the ones who still have WinXP apps that they want to use (and who paid the extra for the right Win7 version to run them).

Having said that, new computer owners might very well love Win8.

As a web developer, I may be forced to build a Win8 box to test web site performance. But I'll deal with that issue down the road. And it will likely not be my primary windows machine. Will Apache, MySQL and PHP work on a Win8 machine (and I mean as servers, not as end user)?

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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bitJericho
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 19:55
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Why would you want to run apache/mysql/php on a production windows 8 machine??

Anyway, windows 8 consumer preview runs everything I've thrown at it that Windows 7 runs. There's actually a disappointingly small different under the hood between the two. The biggest change seems to be just the addition of the Metro UI.

darkBIT TGC Torrent Tracker / File Server - AGK Chat: #agk : irc.devhat.net
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 20:29 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 20:30
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If I were to continue the business I have and upgrade to Win8 for my main work computer, I would need to be able to run a WAMP environment (windows/apache/mysql/php).

I have all my computers (including my Mac Mini) set up so that they are web servers and I have my Windows computers set up with scripts so that I can change the website being served. This is how I develop sites for myself and my clients.

I wouldn't expect to do this on a portable (although, I have for my travel Windows PC so I can deal with customer emergencies). But being able to run everything I currently do in Windows 7 (with XP runnables) would be important.

If it really is just a difference in the user interface (Metro UI), I sure hope MS isn't expecting to charge a lot for it.

Does the Metro UI play nice with apps not built for it?

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Ancient Lady
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Mobiius
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 18:20
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Apps not developed for Metro will run as traditional programs in desktop mode. But desktop mode does not have a start menu or I believe, desktop icons.

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
See what I live for here: [url]http:\\www.TeamDefiant.co.uk[/url]
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bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 21:55 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2012 21:58
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Oh that makes sense. The desktop does indeed work just like normal. The start button's there too, it's in the far bottom left corner like always, just no icon there, if you move to the far corner, it'll say Start and clicking pulls up the metro interface. You can consider the metro interface as a replacement for the traditional start menu.

I personally like it more than the Standard start menu having used it since shortly after the Developer Preview came out. It feels faster and more organized. Most of the time to launch an app, you just type the first few characters of the name and it's right there to click on/press enter on.

The top left corner shows a list of your running metro apps, right clicking allows you to close them.

I have a dual monitor setup and it works fine. It really is just an improvement (imo)/modification of Windows 7. I don't see any reason why a WAMP dev server wouldn't work. If you'd like, I can test your wamp package of choice for you.

The upgrade price from any version of Windows on XP or later is going to be 40 USD, afaik.

darkBIT TGC Torrent Tracker / File Server - AGK Chat: #agk : irc.devhat.net
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 22:04
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Quote: "I can test your wamp package of choice for you."

I don't have a wamp package for you to try. I install each of the AMP bits manually so that I have full control of what goes where. But thank you for offering.

Quote: "Windows on XP or later is going to be 40 USD"

Really?!?! You mean MS is finally not going to charge an arm and a leg for their newest OS?

Cool. At that price, I'll buy an upgrade and upgrade one of my virtual Windows 'boxes' (I have 6) once my virtualization software says its ready to support Win8.

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Ancient Lady
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bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 22:15 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2012 22:19
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Quote: "once my virtualization software says its ready to support Win8."


I'd be shocked if all the AMP parts didn't work in Windows 8. If you use virtualbox, and you plan on local/virtualbox RDP access, count it out. Virtualbox extension drivers do not work in 8! Built-in Windows RDP access works fine. Remote VNC access is fine as long as you don't change the DPI. Hopefully that all gets fixed soon.

darkBIT TGC Torrent Tracker / File Server - AGK Chat: #agk : irc.devhat.net
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xCept
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2012 03:28
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Quote: "I think that you are missing a BIG point here. In the coming times, all laptops will be touchscreen based (like Ultrabooks). all desktop monitors will be touchscreens.... get the idea why win8 will work?"


I don't know if I'd ever enjoy using a touchscreen desktop monitor, then again I never used one. I sit about three feet from the screen and would hate having to lean forward from the keyboard just to perform basic functions, not to mention my loathe of fingerprints all over everything. Nor would I want to use a touch keyboard when on a desktop. I have never tried Metro yet, but am certainly curious to see how it pans out with desktop consumers when officially released. Of course I think there'll always be an option to use a mouse, at which I welcome touchscreen as an optional input method.
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Impetus73
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2012 15:30
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Relax all those who fear Win 8. There are 3rd party software, that adds the start menu as you know it from windows 7, and even let you boot up into the desktop. I don't remember the name of the program, but I read about it online a few days ago...

What about making a special driver to the touchpads on laptops, so that it becomes a touchscreen for the laptop screen? If you press the middle of the pad, it's registered as the middle of the screen, you drag your finger around, and an indicator on the screen moves with it, then press harder, to click. The pads can register how hard you press.

----------------
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Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's.
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bjadams
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2012 22:35
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Most important thing is, thanks to the Intel competition, AppGameKit will support native Metro!
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2012 22:51
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On Intel only, I suspect.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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bjadams
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 16:32
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Doesn't VS take care of spitting out either intel or arm packaging code or does the .lib have to be specifically written in arm code?
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Dar13
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 21:07
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Quote: "On Intel only, I suspect."

He's implementing an OpenGL interface through DX11, so it's not dependent on Intel at all. Unless he's being forced to, in which case there's going to be a lot of angry developers(since AMD chips are so much cheaper than Intel's and are pretty popular).

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 26th Aug 2012 01:14
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Yes - I know. As I said earlier (to laughter) there has to be a DX layer to work on WinRT.Personally, I think WinRT is going to be a disaster, but, hey, if we can play Abide With me on the Titanic, that's good news!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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bjadams
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Posted: 26th Aug 2012 14:22
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why will winRT running on an arm based $199 surface tablet be a disaster?
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 26th Aug 2012 15:18
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Because you won't be able to run much on it. They haven't (apparently) even completed the (partial) port of Office yet. People will expect a Microsoft product to run a lot of things that run on PCs - but they won't. It's going to be very confusing to have two different Surface tablets with the same name which are, effectively, two totally different entities.

For example: one of my colleague's friends is a nurse. She's been given an iPad to do her presentations. She asks the sensible question "How do I run my PowerPoint stuff on here?" Answer - you can't. And so on. This is going to be what it's like with the Arm Surface.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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bjadams
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Posted: 26th Aug 2012 17:55
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I agree that having an arm and an intel surface is going to confuse the non-tech user.
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