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Geek Culture / Are the forums slipping?

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Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 10th Aug 2012 18:06
[NOTE: If anyone uses this thread to bash other forum members, attack the mods or anything else of that nature, I will email all of the mods and ask for this thread to be locked. Be nice and respect each other!]

I disappeared off of the forums for a while, not posting much of anything for over a year or so. This was due to many reasons, but time was the major one. When I finally got time to visit the forums again, I was happy to return here, as this was my favorite place to go for years.

But recently, I can't believe how mean some people are being to each other, and how many arguments there's been! I regret the arguing with Pincho I did in his thread; that is inexcusable behavior and I still feel bad about bashing him. After that whole ordeal, I asked myself how I'd like it if I had been in his shoes, and he bashed me. I wouldn't like it very much.

Has anyone else noticed that the people on the forums aren't as nice as they used to be? Users I'm familiar with and have seen since before I even registered are posting not-so-nice things, and other users seem to think they should be able to get away with trolling users (poor greenpavel, I feel bad for him, as for all we know he might have a handicap that makes his posts darned near unreadable even in Russian!). Why are we trolling each other? Why can't we all be friendlier, like we used to be?

I started noticing a difference in people's attitudes earlier in the year and it just keeps getting worse. Please, everyone take a chill pill, reevaluate your attitude on the forums, and come back more respectful and nicer.

I mentioned this in the Posting Competition, which after years of gathering some hilarious posts, seems to be encouraging the behaviors above (I forget who said that in the thread, but I agree with them; it seems you can get away with anything in the Posting Competition and I think it's because the posts accumulate so fast the mods just can't keep up). Perhaps it's time for that thread to die, or be locked for a long, long time until people can prove they can behave again?

I don't mean to offend anyone. I just hate that one of my favorite communities has been slipping lately and this is my attempt at stopping it. If you disagree, then please post to restore my faith in this community. I hope to God I'm wrong and have just seen some bad posts recently.

That's really all I have to say. Please, everyone, just respect each other.

-Yodaman Jer

Not contributing much of anything useful to the forums since September of 2007.
bitJericho
22
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Location: United States
Posted: 10th Aug 2012 19:09 Edited at: 10th Aug 2012 19:12
This community has always been mean ever since I can remember. I'm sure I've been guilty of it too but I try hard to be fair if I'm wanting to criticize.

I used to also program in BYOND and got in trouble there at first because I came across as mean... I was like, woah. I started looking at what was going on there and everyone was extremely courteous and nice. Comapare it to here and we have people criticising language barriers, calling others out, hatin' on the mods, etc. Here, it's like a big ol' you-can-be-a-jerk fest. Love it or hate it that's how it's been here for ages.

Of course, I do love the honesty that comes out here because of the no-nonsense approach (which does indeed come across as mean) At least you don't get balogne'ed. It's no excuse for being mean.

Seppuku Arts
Moderator
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 10th Aug 2012 19:40
I think it has been an on and off kind of thing. We've had nice periods of where everybody is nice and respectful. Heck, we had some AUP breaking discussions but mods seemed to do nothing about it (other than join in) and I suspect it's because although heated they were respectful and flame free.

To illustrate that point. I made this same thread a few years ago Yodaman. Okay, I was less diplomatic about it but then I was younger and less smart. Except, the discussion was more to do with how the forum used to be worse rather than better. And to be honest, when I made that thread it was probably worse than it is now. For example, I don't think I've seen anyone put any 'noobs' down.

I am always up for people being more respectable, but I think one positive thing here is that people aren't afraid to offer criticisms and they're not afraid to be brutally honest and that really can be a good thing. Though the skill is to know where it's appropriate, I mean, when your mother cooks your dinner you're not offering an in depth critique every time. "Mum, these peas are a tad overcooked and frankly the pork is ghastly", she'd prolly just slap you silly. It's a social skill. With Pavel, it sounds like things could have gone a LOT better. If you're going to accuse somebody of something be prepared to back it up, I mean, seriously, has nobody played LA Noire? Yes, I had a hard time understanding him too.

As for trolling, ideally it's for The Posting Competition only and I think beyond fun between members it should have no place in this forum - or heck, any forum. The Posting Competition was pretty much created for that purpose. Randomness, stupidity and trolling and I think it has been useful in that regard. Because before it existed there were more Posting Competition-like posts in perfectly innocent threads and I probably contributed to some of them. We actually came up with ideas on how to deal with it and The Posting Competition was a great idea.

I don't see any reason why people can't remain cool dudes, but to each his own, but of course, should anybody break the AUP then they should be prepared to face the consequences. Generally we like to see it clean and respectable here, even if it's not always the case. I'd say it's still a lot better than when I was a newbie and apparently that was a lot better than pre-2004 TGC.

I find if you remain respectful and calm yourself people tend to follow suit, it's rare that I find anybody shows me any disrespect. If I were to start flaming or getting angry or annoyed with someone then I know that'd change.

BlackFox
FPSC Master
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Posted: 10th Aug 2012 20:06 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 21:03
[Fox Edit]...[/Fox Edit]


Twitter: @NFoxMedia
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 10th Aug 2012 21:07 Edited at: 10th Aug 2012 21:13
the forums have become frustrating for me over the past year or so and i've tried to not let it get to me; i've not been so successful at that lately, to say the least.

while the same helpful, informative, and interesting posts continue to bring me back, i find i have to filter more and more out to be able to enjoy them. i end up lashing out at certain individuals whom i believe are contributing to the muck because i want it to be "like it used to be" and don't appreciate what that was being soiled. and, sometimes, i end up stepping away/leaving for a short time before it really gets to me while i regain energy for said filtering process, and before writing it off completely.

i've only recently perused the posting competition thread (a day or 2 ago) and while i understand the above perspective on it (intention, etc), i see it as an over-full bed pan sitting on the dinner table that is the forums, complete with all one might expect. while moderators try to contain it, it'll remain a source for said muck, its stench, and all that it attracts. (for some reason, a few, select, Travis Bickle quotes are coming to mind)

anyway, i appreciate this well-presented thread as an opportunity to explain some of my perspective, and vent a little. before "the flow" seeps into it, too, i mean...

Virtual Nomad @ California, USA . DBPro V7.5
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Aug 2012 22:17 Edited at: 10th Aug 2012 22:19
If you think you can contribute positively to a thread, by all means please do. A forum is made up of its members and I think the best anybody can do is set the example and maybe influence a certain way of thinking or posting. Or heck, if somebody's really getting on your nerves in a thread, I am sure it's possible to talk to them about it without it getting heated - or at least worth a shot.

I think in terms of TPC, I think people should be able to have their fun and have an area that's more chilled out and enjoyable (and a place where they can form a part of the community) - obviously they get something out of the forum, but that kind of 'fun' isn't everybody's cup of tea and not everybody wants to see it. If it's in the Posting Competition, like it's supposed to be, then people can just avoid it should they choose to do so. I'm not sure what would be the best solution for everybody in that regard (for the record, you're not the first to mention it).

Daniel wright 2311
User Banned
Posted: 10th Aug 2012 22:42
This fourm is dead, compaired to what it was in 2007 this fourm is dead in the water, but, this does not mean it done, there are still many new people and also more coming Im shure, they just dont know about it yet.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.
xplosys
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Posted: 10th Aug 2012 22:49
Quote: "This fourm is dead"


Get a crash cart in here.... STAT!

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

TheComet
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 00:24
It's odd, I've been flicking through a lot of posts from back in 2006/2007 lately and the people there were trolling each other like there was no tomorrow. BUT, everyone seemed to be doing so humorously. They were a family, a crude one at that, but nonetheless a pretty fun community. There were also hilarious insider jokes (such as that "raven" pun) and who could forget Megaton and Jimmy? There were posts back there where moderators would actually support trolling, and even troll themselves sometimes.

I believe the problem now is that everyone has become a lot more tight and stuffed up. I'm sorry to say it like this, but I can't see any other way to put it. People are punished for the tiniest things (grammar mistakes, wrong opinions, misunderstood sarcasm etc.) and I feel the bar for quality of posts these days is set way too high.

I'm not saying the AUP should be ignored, nor am I saying that low quality posts are good. I'd just like everyone (including the mods) to take that broom out of their rear and loosing up. And before I get slapped or something, no, that was not a direct attack to any of the moderators or users, I was merely using a figure of speech : definition

Quote: "2. "to have a broom up your rear" means to be "stuck up", snobbish - the idea being that the pole up your backside makes you stiff, not flexible, not "loose" or relaxed"


TheComet

Your mod has been erased by a signature, please reduce him [overall] to no larger than 120 kg please.
Thraxas
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 00:58
From a personal standpoint I made a decision to stop being nice to certain people.

Whenever somebody doesn't agree with a decision I made, my inbox gets flooded with abuse.

Whenever somebody doesn't like my opinion, I'm told that as a moderator I shouldn't even have an opinion.

Or even those people who have to disagree with me simply because I have a mod badge next to my name, simply because they have authority issues.

And then there are people who feel that even if they break the rules they shouldn't have to suffer the consequences and moan and whinge constantly about it and that the mods are all nazis.

I don't feel that this is a change from when I first joined the forums, though. When I first joined I didn't even dare post a question because of the abuse people got (and tbh STILL get) when they asked a simple question.

Even though we're not mentioning names and singling out users, I will. Unlike some people I have literally zero time for Greenpavel. If you go through his posting history, time and time again it has been made clear that we cannot understand him. In one thread the amount of support and offers for translation help was overwhelming. The community wanted to help this guy. But instead he ignored every offer for help, and all that advice and instead posted a thread essentially saying it was absurd that we didn't understand English as his translator did a great job. That was the beginning of the end for him as far as I was concerned.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 01:23 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 01:31
Quote: "Even though we're not mentioning names and singling out users, I will. Unlike some people I have literally zero time for Greenpavel. If you go through his posting history, time and time again it has been made clear that we cannot understand him. In one thread the amount of support and offers for translation help was overwhelming. The community wanted to help this guy. But instead he ignored every offer for help, and all that advice and instead posted a thread essentially saying it was absurd that we didn't understand English as his translator did a great job. That was the beginning of the end for him as far as I was concerned."


This is why this time round I chose to ignore him rather than engage him. I did try to make sense of what he was saying for people in his 'lock my account' thread. We tried our best before, but it didn't work and was even unappreciated, for me, instead of going in and frustrating him or even causing trouble or conflict (because in the end that's what happened), I just figured it wasn't worth trying.

Quote: "Whenever somebody doesn't agree with a decision I made, my inbox gets flooded with abuse.

Whenever somebody doesn't like my opinion, I'm told that as a moderator I shouldn't even have an opinion.

Or even those people who have to disagree with me simply because I have a mod badge next to my name, simply because they have authority issues.

And then there are people who feel that even if they break the rules they shouldn't have to suffer the consequences and moan and whinge constantly about it and that the mods are all nazis."


This is why I can understand that mods get frustrated. Especially on a forum like this it can't be a moralising job and you're only volunteering, heck many of the mods who I do see moderating don't seem to post that frequently any more - obviously because they're actually doing something constructive and not wasting aware their lives like the rest of us. I don't think any of you really have an obligation to moderate, you're not paid, sure you get a shiny badge, but I can't imagine all of the moderators are Magpies. But I think people should at least cut you guys some slack time to time. You pretty much keep the bad people from hurting our precious forum.


However, Comet, I agree in that we need it to be more relaxed again - not pointing at anybody in particular, but I think the best way to do that is just chill out So if you agree that this place should be chilled, then chill...simple as that. I know recently it has been less so and that could be for any number of reasons. I'd say 'free hugs all round' to encourage a little love, but I know Jeku is likely to punch me in the face if I try and get anywhere near him with a hug. Maybe Redneck Rambo too.

Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 01:47 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 01:50
Quote: "it has been made clear"

i look forward to a "pavel thread" for the comedic relief alone. i really don't know if he's pulling legs, extremely frustrated, or something else, but they're a bucket of laughs.

there's a communication issue somewhere and, now that we're talking about it, i'm reminded that the issue is everywhere and part of online communication, period. ie, there are only so many smileys available to help frame the intended tone of a sentence, paragraph or post (i've been wanting to whip up some new smileys to account for this ).

anyway, i'm in this particular thread as one of the less-friendly-of-late-types mentioned. so, the discussion here is somewhat therapeutic << see? the same damned smileys! arrrrg!

Virtual Nomad @ California, USA . DBPro V7.7
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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 02:18
Quote: "I believe the problem now is that everyone has become a lot more tight and stuffed up."

Ehh, to be fair, the trolling in greenpavel's thread was a bit tasteless.

RUCCUS
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 02:40
The issue is these forums are built up of basically two kinds of people - skilled programmers, and younger "newbies" to the programming world. Its just the common nature of a programmer to try and prove his intelligence over another person. Hell, I'm doing it right now by saying "I know what the problem is, most of you don't". It's just natural for us to always question our "ranking" in the online society we choose, and then try to maintain the ability of always having the last say on any question that involves our field. Obviously there are exceptions, but very few.

When you combine skilled programmers that have been here for years and programming for even longer with newer, younger kids just starting out, and add in a pinch of flame bait (like Pincho's recent threads, or Raven's rantings, or what have you), it's just a recipe for trolling. It's like a sign on the thread saying "Hey, know-it-alls, I'm new here and Im stating something you either didn't think of or is completely wrong. Regardless, come try to prove yourself".

I don't think the forums have been getting worse in terms of trolling, I just think the amount of useful interesting posts has dropped so much that all you tend to notice nowadays is a useless flame war. I remember when I first arrived here, you would be able to refresh Geek Culture within an hour of viewing it and posts you were interested in would have been pushed half way down the page by even more interesting or talk-worthy posts. Nowadays the only thing you tend to see is a few new posts in the Posting Competition (which I've never understood), one or two posts about news in the tech world, and 4 or 5 posts from relatively new users either ranting about their girlfriends or saying "I'm back after (x) months, Hi".

So the remedy would then be to... start posting more interesting, useful threads!
Slayer267
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 04:33
Hello everybody, I am back from my sudden absence.

I'm going to have to agree with most of the things in this thread, there has been alot of trolling in the TGC Forums, and I know, I was involved in it, for that, I'm sorry.

I hope that you guys accept my apology.

www.carnageproduct.com - Come on over! We have free cookies!
TheComet
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 04:48
See, this is exactly what the My Little Pony thread is for: Love and tolerance. But no, most people thought that it was either gay or just didn't comprehend why such a thread could exist.

TheComet

Your mod has been erased by a signature, please reduce him [overall] to no larger than 120 kg please.
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 11th Aug 2012 06:16
Quote: "I don't think the forums have been getting worse in terms of trolling, I just think the amount of useful interesting posts has dropped so much that all you tend to notice nowadays is a useless flame war."


Ah, good point! I remember when in 2007 people would post threads about all kinds of useful and interesting stuff, especially the game consoles and games coming out. People just aren't posting that topic much like they used to!

I guess I just didn't notice the flaming back when I first joined, as all of the threads I looked at were my own. I did try to join in on other conversations, but they didn't interest me too much; I was too interested in learning DBC!

I'm glad we've been able to remain civil in this thread so far. A lot of posts have restored my faith in these forums.

-Yodaman Jer

Not contributing much of anything useful to the forums since September of 2007.
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 06:41
You just must not have been paying attention, honestly. There was just as much trolling and flaming (if anything there was more IMO) back then as there is now. I can't count how many times I was trolling or causing flame wars back then. It was basically a weekly thing. Maybe there wasn't as much in Geek Culture, but the other boards, that I used to frequent at least, were flooded with all of it.

I>Every single one of you

Have a nice day
ionstream
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 07:23
I don't know if there's a higher jerk population on the forums nowadays, there are always a few butts that pop up in each generation. I have a bigger problem with poorly written and thought out posts that derail otherwise thoughtful threads. And I don't even mean Pincho, at least he can cobble together a correctly written sentence without giving an English teacher a heart attack.

While Greenpavel shouldn't be mocked for speaking English poorly, if you follow his threads you'll see that he made no attempts to make himself clearer and to understand us. There have been several times where native Russian speakers spoke to him in Russian, explaining to him the situation, and he ignored them and did not take advantage of their willingness to translate (one user said his Russian is almost as poor as his English). So really, what can you do.

Slayer267
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 07:52
^ I agree, one should not be judged by their lack to speak.
Emotions show alot in communication, but this is a online forum, so we cannot see what others are expressing.

www.carnageproduct.com - Come on over! We have free cookies!
Kezzla
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 09:18
I don't think this place is so bad and its been about the same for the duration of my stay here. I wouldn't say it was dead. I don't think I have ever even seen something I would actually class as a flame-war. but then again, I am pretty thick skinned.

I have always found the help and advice I need here and I find this to be a wonderful and overall very positive community.

I enjoy breaking up my coding bursts with the random stuff in geek culture. I like how I can hit a wall and be totally stuck and I can post a question and receive good advice within a few hours/days.

I like this communities no-nonsense approach to critiquing and appreciate the blunt honesty that is available.

It is a shame green pavel has left us, I too always looked forward to his threads. I feel his legend may one day live up to that of "book is stupid".

at any rate, I will be sticking around and will help where I can and I have no interest in flaming people.(maybe just a little jab in the ribs here and there)

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 12:53 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 12:55
Quote: "I don't think the forums have been getting worse in terms of trolling, I just think the amount of useful interesting posts has dropped so much that all you tend to notice nowadays is a useless flame war."


I think this is a fair point. It's the imbalance we're noticing, not an increase in troll activity. Solution? Be more interesting!

Perhaps some folks could commit to posting one interesting thread a day (for a lil while)? Might be a solution to make some folk happy? Also more posts in places like Program Announcements and Work in Progress, because those boards so deader than what they used to be and it means folk get more feedback on their projects (after all, we're all here to make games/app at the end of the day )

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 16:19 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 16:21
I don't know why I get mentioned as a troll. My posts are informative, just 10 years ahead of time. If you go back to 2004, my posts on science sites then are up to date now.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 20:11
Please Pincho, you invite trolling with Nastradamus-esque talk like that.

Pony thread is trolling free. I mean, after the first couple of pages where mods and members alike came in to imply we were paedophiles and gay, that is...

I think the problem is that some people come for a debate, and get one, and they get heated. Then others look at that thread, and suddenly start telling everyone to stop because it might insult someone. Then it tends to go downhill and get messy.

I'm thick-skinned, and I enjoy the banter and debate we have here.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 20:43 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 20:45
I think as soon as someone says the word trolling, they are trolling. That's how I read it. It's always the first word of attack.

Quote: "Please Pincho, you invite trolling with Nastradamus-esque talk like that."


I also read that as an attack. Maybe people need to learn how to post without an attack sentence.

Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 20:48 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 20:50
Quote: "add in a pinch of flame bait (like Pincho's recent threads...)"

pincho, i think your posts are intriguing but, like politics and religion, the subject matter can be seen as threat to (individual) beliefs and what we know as truth. people will defend their beliefs and, you simply can't prove them wrong, now matter how hard you try to explain your position.

at some point, you have to acknowledge that this is not the platform for presenting your science as you've done in some posts. ie, nothing good can come of it here. as (general) "geeks", we're "open" to a lot, but we have our limits.

i think your universe generator WIP is awesome and something we definitely appreciate as "programming" geeks. from that thread:

Quote: "You can decide whether it's possible, or impossible, but it should be fun anyway to see what happens."


and, it is fun to watch. if you intend to share your beliefs, that's how it will be accepted, here, in my opinion, and then only to the technical extent of the project. we're into the technical challenges you overcome in your endeavor. the code & approach you apply, the visuals, etc. all good stuff. share that and leave it at that and we're all (including you, hopefully) happy

Virtual Nomad @ California, USA . DBPro V7.7
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 20:51 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 20:56
Quote: "
at some point, you have to acknowledge that this is not the platform for presenting your science as it's you've done in some posts. ie, nothing good can come of it here."


I was asked by two members to post one of my science threads. I never posted any since 2004 when I first started on science sites. I know that I am going against beliefs. It's important that I do go against beliefs. But nobody is ready to post sensibly in my threads so they have to go. Even the mention of them in this thread creates insults.

Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 20:55 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 20:58
and, like i said, i appreciate the science threads, as do those 2 members (and others i'm sure) but, obviously, it's causing some disruption and having ill effects. i wish your posts wouldn't be attacked and were appreciated by all but, it's not working out that way. so, where to go from there? continue forcing the square peg into the hole?

edit after your edit:
Quote: "Even the mention of them in this thread creates insults."

and, that's truly unfortunate.

Virtual Nomad @ California, USA . DBPro V7.7
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 20:58 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 20:59
Quote: "...so, where to go from there?"


I just finish the program. There is Youtube., and Twitter.

Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 21:17 Edited at: 11th Aug 2012 21:30
I blame TGC. There's not been anything to get excited about for ages (and if there has I haven't heard about it which is another problem), we had the introduction of AppGameKit but that's not going to appeal to everyone and besides that I can't think of anything for years.

The newsletter needs to be given more prominence. It's a great way to share the best of the community, inspire people and get them excited about new products. Apparently "it's back" but I didn't even notice it had left. I think BatVink did a great job but half the time I simply forgot to read it.

How about introducing a banner that would pop up when a newsletter is published or an event/competition is announced? Give people the control to mark it as read and disable the function all together if they wish of course, but I think a lot of cool things pass us by because they aren't advertised.

People only turn nasty when they have nothing better to do, so we need stuff happening to keep up morale.

Another thing I think is vital for the future is Linux support. There seems to be a growing animosity towards Windows 8 and it will likely spark a mass migration to Linux operating systems.

I don't know how well TGC are doing financially but the forum is getting really inactive and that doesn't make sense to me, their potential market is only growing as more and more people are getting interested in games, game design and computers in general. Support for Linux is a big part of accessing that market because the vast majority of Linux users actively chose their OS so they have some interest in computing and therefore more likely to be interested in TGC products than the average Windows user. That's not bashing windows, just a fact that windows is the "default" OS for most people.

Shh... you're pretty.
Slayer267
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 21:59
Im assuming that FPSC was a big hit for TGC and my question is, why not make it bigger?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Aug 2012 22:06 Edited at: 12th Aug 2012 00:42
Currently Linux is quite a small market and I think it's difficult to predict, but certainly Linux has that potential and with Unity3D adding Linux as one of its platforms in version 4 and Steam going Linux I think we're going to see more opportunities available and another area where indie games could thrive more - some indie companies already have Linux versions of their games. And to be honest systems like Linux Mint and Ubuntu (what I'm currently typing on) are a LOT more user friendly than Linux has a reputation for. Sure Ubuntu's Unity isn't everybody's cup of tea, but thankfully unlike with Windows 8's Metro, you can actually get rid of it by installing Gnome Classic, which is what I'm running now - it doesn't replace Unity either, it just add another option on your login screen. Personally I would like to see a boom in the Linux market.

I don't think this is a viable direction for Dark Basic Pro, because it is DirectX based, even if WLGfx has managed to get OpenGL working in DBP with the use of Irrlicht. But it'd be a nice addition to AGK. If AppGameKit had 3D capabilities and even the use of shaders, I think the idea of migrating from DBP over to AppGameKit would be more desirable. 3D is on the way thankfully.

But I do get your point, back in the day when TGC's products were thriving more and had less competition there was a lot more excitement because they were competitions and activities galore. I suspect there's more going on AppGameKit side to excite. But DBP/DGDK/FPSC/FPSCX10 users might not. Though if they're gonna do Dark Basic Elite, that'll be interesting. With Dark GDK 2.0 on the horizon, I was actually thinking of getting something done with that - maybe coding challenges, maybe even encourage TGC to pass out some points for the store and encourage people to get involved with the product. Plus, I was going to work on some tutorials for it. At the moment it's only a release candidate. Heck, I'd probably let DBP users in on it just for something for the community, I mean, I was elected president after all. But I'm not sure what the ETA is on DGDK 2.0.

Maybe we could do something else in the mean time to pick up community spirit? Community Competitions don't always work. But waaaaaaay back yonder I did start the 3D Challenge and it still lives today, thanks to the effort of people who have put in the effort to run it after it changed hands (and the effort of the people who have supported it). I am wondering if the same (or similar) model would work for coding challenges (beyond the 20 line challenge)?

Also, I know you had something cool going with Dark Noob Games. I think there's all sorts of ways to get the community spirits rolling and people participating and enjoying their usage of TGC products. Also, best not forget FPSC too, I was never a part of that section of the community, but it'd be nice to have more going on, if TGC can't spare the resources, I'm sure we can.

JLMoondog
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 00:14
Quote: "I blame TGC. There's not been anything to get excited about for ages (and if there has I haven't heard about it which is another problem), we had the introduction of AppGameKit but that's not going to appeal to everyone and besides that I can't think of anything for years."

Seriously?? AppGameKit anyone?

I don't think the forums are slipping, it's just in a phase, like it always does from time to time.

TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 12th Aug 2012 00:42
Quote: "Currently Linux is quite a small market and I think it's difficult to predict, but certainly Linux has that potential and with Unity3D adding Linux as one of its platforms in version 4 and Steam going Linux I think we're going to see more opportunities available and another area where indie games could thrive more - some indie companies already have Linux versions of their games."


If TGC could support LINUX... As I said in my "end of Microsoft era" thread, it would be a wise move.

TheComet

Your mod has been erased by a signature, please reduce him [overall] to no larger than 120 kg please.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 00:45
It'd be a neat move, more viable for AppGameKit that DBP I think. As I say, it's difficult to predict the market, but this is ample opportunity for the Linux community to try and snatch some of the market. Lets hope that it's not missed.

WLGfx
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 01:59
Yeah, DBP could easily be wrapped around Irrlicht (just dropping that in there he he)... And that would support Mac, Linux and Windows. I'm hoping for a multi-platform move by TGC. If it was multi-platform it wouldn't just be supporting Linux, but Mac also.

Anyway, I pop by almost everyday but hardly pipe up to say anything unless I feel the need to really. And when I drop by the locked threads I tend to read them first before looking at the others.

It's only over the last 4 to 6 months the DBP forum has quietened down a tad but it is still active and not as dead as in need of the wagon.

As to trolling, I just ignore it. I have no interest in getting involved in arguments on these forums as by the time you come to catching up on what's been said, a million other posts are made by people wanting to get there say in. So there's no point.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 06:41 Edited at: 12th Aug 2012 06:45
Really there's no reason why AppGameKit can't support Linux, they just haven't gotten around to it. With 3d support also coming, that's where it's going to be at. Just gotta wait for a game to be viable enough on the Linux platform or the platform itself to become popular enough to warrant a player being created.

Woo that was a long sentence. Yep getting tired

The whole being mean is a cultural thing and would require a pretty significant change on the moderator playbook. I think really just having mods able to delete/remove offensive posts really quickly and doling out appropriate punishments to offenders would be the right solution to the problem.

For example, them being able to stop Pavel from getting to the point that he wanted to close his account. It's just a matter of a fairly high volume forum with low numbers of Moderators and the current playbook that they follow leads us to a forum with, let's just call it how it is, rude people on it.

And I don't think it's the trolls that are doing it. For example, making fun of a silly argument or pointing out an absurd thought. Really it's the members that are criticizing where it's completely inappropriate. Criticizing someone's language, pretending to be mods (in before lock!)

Thraxas
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 08:14 Edited at: 12th Aug 2012 08:19
Greenpavel doesn't want to close his account because of 'trolls'. He wants to close it because he no longer has access to his email address. Even I can understand that through the terrible translator...

There used to be a time when disagreeing with someone was simply that. Now anyone who doesn't share an opinion is called a troll.

I actually think there is very little actual trolling that goes on at these forums. But lots of people calling others trolls because they dare to have a different opinion.

I'm happy to delete/remove/edit posts that are actually offensive, but let's be honest, there's not really that many genuinely offensive posts to be found. Rude, sure...offensive, no...

Holmes
User Banned
Posted: 12th Aug 2012 09:07
Quote: "From a personal standpoint I made a decision to stop being nice to certain people. "


I have not posted or visited this site in almost a year. #1 reason I no longer visit is above. #2 A lot of false or misleading advice. #3 this topics main point for being created. I can certainly understand how frustrating learning how to become a game designer or developer or artist or model artist etc can be, but reasons above typically lead to arguments in posts. Moderators clearly must be respected but they must always respect everyone equally rather you personally like that member or not as well. Moderators set the example for the entire forum and set the tone.

So if you want happy people who get a long, I’d suggest start with setting good examples and treating everyone equal. I agree certain people do tend to annoy others more than others, but they are people and likely annoying because they are confused or need guidance. When I first came here years ago, the idea was the forum people would weed out the bad. Sadly the good moved on and the bad stayed behind. So now it’s up to the moderators to guide people, provide proper direction ultimately correcting behavior and providing success in the software world. Now will not everyone become successful money, but at least you should have the proper knowledge and proper education given to you as a member.

If you fixed that, then you might fix the forums, but that is just my thoughts.
greenlig
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 09:20
TGC forums will always have a specific group of people frequenting them. Mostly, we are hobbyists. I know I started using the forums (13 years ago!!) as a noob hoping to make games. It was crazy, exciting, and plain fun. There were so many projects going on, creativity oozing out all over the place, and a general community thing happening. Even with the RGT debacles, and the eventual migration to the Apollo forums, it was a massive part of the last decade for me.

But, as I've grown older, and a lot of the other members have, it DOES get frustrating to see the new wave of noobs coming through. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just a natural thing. TGC has always appealed to the hobbyist, and makes it's livelihood based off them. I know, in a way, I've outgrown these forums a bit. I've moved on to different things. TGC will always be somewhere I frequent, but not somewhere I expect to have my needs met. It's easy to look back at "the good old days" and long for them, but in reality, we all change, and getting used to that is the trick. the MAJORITY of users here will be hobbyists, and people easing into the world of game-dev. It's awesome, and wonderful, but it is what it is.

AGK, in my mind, is one of the biggest spurs for me to get back into the community, so I think Obese87 might have a slight point. Not that TGC are to blame, but that excitement around them and their products drives this place. Remember when DBPro was coming out? My goodness I was giddy with excitement. AppGameKit is fantastic, and I am enjoying tinkering with it. Can't wait for the 3D commands, so I can do better 2D stuff

I love this place, and it's always going to be a community I stick around. But I don't expect it to play the role it did. I've changed. I feel a bit bad when I look at stuff I would have commented on in years gone by, and now just close the tab.

I want another really cool competition, though. Alienware rocked

Greenlig

Your signature has been erased by a mod as it is far too big.
KeithC
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 09:52
Holmes (aka Old School); you're duplicate account has been banned....keep it up and your main one will be too. You've been warned about this before.

-Keith

Thraxas
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 10:05
Quote: " Moderators clearly must be respected but they must always respect everyone equally rather you personally like that member or not as well. Moderators set the example for the entire forum and set the tone. "


I treat everyone nicely. Then they send me an abusive email and I no longer treat them with that same level of respect. It's the user who sets the tone, not myself.

I help people who need help, I don't simply tell them to read the manual. I have on numerous occasion put together examples, written scripts, even helped via skype/messenger apps. More often than not without even getting a thank you from the person involved.

Also I'm more than happy to tell people when I disagree with them to their face and don't feel the need to create a duplicate account in order to hide my identity. I think the number 1 reason you don't visit the site anymore has nothing to do with what I do (because I didn't even interact with you) but more to do with the fact that you annoyed everyone. Maybe if you had spent less time harassing moderators you would have been treated better.

feiting shadow
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 11:22
Not a community? remember this:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=144577&b=1

Holmes Sorry to give the "tasteless, direct criticism", actually your grammar and ideals are awesome. I learned something important after growing a bit old, guys don't respect each other unless you're mean to them. Seriously, you gain respect by saying things in a mean way. I hate humanity for it, but I have to do it or you won't listen.

My main point is, the mods are not responsible for us. They're not our mothers, nor are they our medics. Ever seen two friends get into heated "I'll smash your head!!" "Oh yeah, I'll crap in your ___ with a bottle of ___ and set it on____"... 'cause I have two friends that constantly just say that stuff... it's not abnormal (and there's more people that do that)

To me, the act of doing, reading, and bothering to comprehend "troll" is equal to watching a newbie speak l33t because he's 8 years old and saw the word on counterstrike. I don't do it, blame others for doing it, it's a dead word.

I've come to learn I have mild autism (programmer, go fig). So when someone presents me with sarcasm, I frequently don't understand, I figure I'll answer the question or respond, if it's a lie or untrue, it'll be exposed then. Embarrassment switches to the other person. It's funny doing this to news channels, posting comments debunking their stuff, but anywho:

The main reason I wanted to post was this.
I blame techno's decline into alternative rock. Seriously, it sounds like garbage now, and everyone knows we need soda and techno. Without it, coders are lost.

(also, I consider autism a positive thing, not a disability, don't feel obligated to post differently just 'cause I said I have some of it - not that we would... hehe, which is why I like this community)

Long Live Real Game Tools,
had to

Signed
------
Jeku
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 11:30
A year ago I was hoping for a new DBP announcement, but since AppGameKit will be getting 3D support, I think AppGameKit is a viable replacement. It's cross-platform and you can make standard Windows executables as well. With 3D, it will kick butt! I don't think TGC is just sitting around but since they're a very small company, they can't always be announcing brand new exciting products.


Senior Developer - CBS Interactive Music Group
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 12th Aug 2012 11:37 Edited at: 12th Aug 2012 11:38
Quote: "I don't think the forums have been getting worse in terms of trolling, I just think the amount of useful interesting posts has dropped so much that all you tend to notice nowadays is a useless flame war"

I would say this is exactly correct. There definitely has not been in increase in flaming, if anything there has been a major decrease (although there has been a lot of flaming Pincho I'm just going to count that as one long continuous flame lol) but it seems like there has been a decrease in just about everything else. I remember some years ago, if I went an entire day without looking at the boards there would be a ton of new threads, now there is only a good few.

Quote: "I have not posted or visited this site in almost a year. #1 reason I no longer visit is above. #2 A lot of false or misleading advice. #3 this topics main point for being created. I can certainly understand how frustrating learning how to become a game designer or developer or artist or model artist etc can be, but reasons above typically lead to arguments in posts. Moderators clearly must be respected but they must always respect everyone equally rather you personally like that member or not as well. Moderators set the example for the entire forum and set the tone. "

This is one of the dumber things I've read in a while to be honest. Moderators are people too. They can dislike whoever they want to. However, they just can't go around banning/slapping because they don't like someone. That doesn't mean they can't dislike people. They are here to keep the boards clean, all while being human too.

I>Every single one of you

Have a nice day
Seppuku Arts
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 12th Aug 2012 11:50 Edited at: 12th Aug 2012 14:31
Quote: "#2 A lot of false or misleading advice."


As you are Old_School, a lot of the advice you were given was not false or misleading, you just didn't like it and often ignored what people had do say. You even had people with the experience and success to back themselves up too, not just 14 year old bedroom coders who think they know what they're talking about. People were often quite reasonable and patient, but you did manage to annoy people, whether the way they reacted was right or wrong, I do not know. But the advice that you were given was actually useful advice.

Quote: "I’d suggest start with setting good examples and treating everyone equal. I agree certain people do tend to annoy others more than others, but they are people and likely annoying because they are confused or need guidance."


But to be fair to you Old_School, this is a wise point. I don't think it's one that should be exclusive to mods either. As Rambo points out, mods are people too and they are also forum members, they volunteer to moderate, but at the end of the day they are just members like the rest of us and are not bound to hold themselves on a higher pedestal than everybody else, they just need to obey and enforce the forum's rules and keep things in a working order. But if you want a certain attitude, as I suggested earlier it's always good to have said attitude and people may follow suit, particularly if there's enough of you having that attitude.


But I disagree on this point:

Quote: "When I first came here years ago, the idea was the forum people would weed out the bad. Sadly the good moved on and the bad stayed behind."


The forum has always attracted a diverse crowd, the main attraction I would say is for hobbyists but also has people who are serious about a career in the game industry and even people currently working in the game industry or programming in a different job market. We've got indies here as well. People from each of these background still post, but members come and go and I know people move on to other things - some of the old members I'm still on contact with or have contacts for and I'm sure it's the same for others. It is sad to see them go but they can't spend a lifetime on a forum.

We still get newbies and people are always willing to offer them help too and I think that's a strength in our community - just head to the Dark Bassic Pro Discussion, it's extremely rare for somebody to not get an answer when they ask for help with a certain problem. Geek Culture gets heated from time-to-time, yes, but that doesn't mean the membership is weak, bear in mind also, that is only one part of the forum and only one part of the community. Perhaps you feel this way because you faced criticism yourself? I personally don't think you're completely innocent in that matter, but I admit, I think it could have been handled better.

[edit]
As I mentioned helpfulness on the forum I feel I should elaborate. The thing I love is that people will try to help and are often more than happy to share code or methods and we have our code bases where people freely offer code for others to use. Contrast to me using the Unity3D forums, if people ask for help it seems people are more worried that they're gonna steal scripts and people tend to sell code through the asset store and there is no code-snippets base on their website or forums for people to use or learn from. When a guy asked for help on coding an inventory I offered an in depth post (with examples of code & explanations, like we get here), but I was picked up on it by another because by his argument I was "working for free", hence he joked about me coming around to pain his house for free and essentially suggested it'd be a waste of my time to help freeloaders. Not his words as he was being more diplomatic and tongue and cheek than that, but it seems to be a bit of a contrast between communities.

To be honest, if somebody finds my code useful, then I'm happy. If I weren't willing to give code away freely I wouldn't post it freely. My blog is pretty much filled with me talking about my coding techniques as and when I'm using them.

JLMoondog
Moderator
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Location: Paradox
Posted: 12th Aug 2012 21:03
Quote: "When a guy asked for help on coding an inventory I offered an in depth post (with examples of code & explanations, like we get here), but I was picked up on it by another because by his argument I was "working for free", hence he joked about me coming around to pain his house for free and essentially suggested it'd be a waste of my time to help freeloaders. Not his words as he was being more diplomatic and tongue and cheek than that, but it seems to be a bit of a contrast between communities."

I think that's why TGC is one of the better if not best coding community out there. They have some of the most in-depth and largest free set of resources around. Someone with little knowledge of coding games can pick-up DBP, do a few quick searches for code snippets and models and have a basic game up in running in less then a week. Heck, once you know the language you can do it in less then a day.

old_School
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Posted: 13th Aug 2012 00:31 Edited at: 13th Aug 2012 00:35
Not duplicating accounts, I no longer use my yahoo account aka this email. So I made a new one and my old account is not under any "mod visions" so there is no avoidence so yeah no rules violated. Most people do change emails after a few years and this email will likely change soon as well when I change my domain name. An just to throw this out there, the best forum is likely the MSDN.
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 13th Aug 2012 01:33
Quote: "Not duplicating accounts, I no longer use my yahoo account aka this email."


You're still the same person, who created a new account... that sounds like a duplicate to me.

-Yodaman Jer

Not contributing much of anything useful to the forums since September of 2007.
JLMoondog
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Posted: 13th Aug 2012 01:42
Quote: "Not duplicating accounts, I no longer use my yahoo account aka this email. So I made a new one and my old account is not under any "mod visions" so there is no avoidence so yeah no rules violated. Most people do change emails after a few years and this email will likely change soon as well when I change my domain name. An just to throw this out there, the best forum is likely the MSDN."

Yes...yes it is a duplicate. You can also change your email if you contact support. Something I didn't realize when I created my current account and lost my last one because of an email bug.

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