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Geek Culture / Grammar police advice please!

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 15:40
Which is the correct punctuation for this statement?

Let's face it, anything is better than dying.
Let's face it. Anything is better than dying.
Let's face it; anything is better than dying.
Let's face it: anything is better than dying.

Originally I typed it with a ; but now I think it's a : since "Let's face it" implies you're about to present an idea.

Language experts, please begin your arguments!

Lewis
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 15:42 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 15:43
Let's face it: anything is better than dying.

In my opinion.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:23 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 16:27
Colon: used when the following information lists something related to or explains what came before the colon. For example: look to the left.

Comma: to separate items in a list and to separate clauses. A clause is the smallest unit that can express a complete proposition. For example: "I am a cat." is one clause, "I am a cat, so lets all get wasted" are 2 separate clauses separated by a comma. The clauses separated by a comma are not independent of one and another. Essentially, they're just used to separate things. Most divorce lawyers use commas.

Full stop (or period): Used for separating unrelated clauses. For example: "I am a cat. I once had a friend called Jimmy. I like to go for long walks on the beach."

Semi colons: These are fancy little things. I like to think of it as a comma and fullstop having a freak baby. So you've got 2 separate clauses and your semi colon separates them, much like a comma and full stop does; but, they can be closely related independent clauses. Independent clauses would normally be separated by a full stop. These two clauses are closely related, but are independent statements: "I became a cat; I was told in a previous life that cats had it easy." Also, semi colons work with a conjunction, like: "I know Fallout is related to Ronan Keating; of course, he won't admit it."

People generally try to avoid using semicolons; however, I love them.

There's the explanations, so which one would I pick?

I would argue between either a colon or a comma. Comma because the 2 clauses are related but aren't independent. Semicolon because you could argue that 'anything is better than dying' explains the 'Let's face it'. Colon reads better in my head.

Matty H
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:30
I just use a comma for everything,

Fallout
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:49 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 16:50
Quote: "Comma because the 2 clauses are related but aren't independent."


I think they are independent. "Let's face it." can be it's own statement. We could spend ages talking about a monster we're going to kill. The conversation could end with me asking "So what shall we do?" followed by you saying "Let's face it." It's obviously related to the conversation, but it's a statement/sentence in it's own right.

In this context you're facing up to a fact about dying! You could write any of these:
"Dying is really bad. Dying is the worst thing that could happen! Let's face it."
"Let's face it. Face what, you may ask! Face dying!"

Also, and more importantly, I think:
"Anything is better than dying. Let's face it." (or swap with a semicolon maybe) it correct and demonstrates they're separate statements.

I would bow to your superior knowledge on the subject, but to me it seems very wrong. I totally agree with the colon though. I think that makes the most sense.

@Matty - You amateur!!!

mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 17:20 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 17:29
Period. Sentence divider. Also it can be used as you like. Even for one word. Just for artistic text shade. Example is a first sentence. Yes.

Semi colons. It is used for dividing sentence with complex parts that contain commas:

* Pale gray sky brightened, grew cold, was blue; stars that twinkled dimly lit, then disappeared; damp earth, steamed leaves here and there began to be heard live sounds, voices.

* In the darkness of vaguely see the same vague subjects: in the distance a black wall, the same moving spots; very near me is horses croup, which, wagging his tail, widely moved apart legs; back in white circassian, which swung the rifle in a black cover and could see the white embroidered cap gun in a holster; light a cigarette, lighting a brown mustache, fur coat and a suede-gloved hand.

* What did he think? The fact that he was poor; that he had to work to bring yourself and independence, and honor; that God could add to it the mind and money; that in fact there are idle lucky, mind poor, sloths, to whom life is easy.

Quote: "Which is the correct punctuation for this statement?"

Let's face it: anything is better than dying.
Also possible:
Let's face it. Anything is better than dying.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 17:28 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 17:38
I think it depends on context. "Let's face it" can be independent; as you say, it could be an answer to a question. The 'it' is the monster and that is suggested by the context of the speech.

In a different context:

"Let's face it, you need a knuckle sandwich for not giving me the context."

In this context, "Let's face it" is just another way of saying, "let's face the truth" and the 'truth' is defined by the statement that follows, thus the clause isn't independent. I read your example to mean, "Let's face the truth: anything is better than dying." People tend to just say, "let's face it" instead.

If you're fighting a monster and you're suggesting that we go face it then I would use a semi-colon. They are two independent clauses that are related.

Robin: Holy cow Batman, it's monster! We're so boned! What shall we do?
Batman: Let's face it; anything is better than dying.

Of course, in the panic of things, it might be more likely Batman is trying to shout over the hysterical Robin and you'd need an exclamation mark, so "Let's face it! Anything is better than dying." would be acceptable. Depends entirely on how you want to emphasise the "let's face it" and what works best for how you want the reader to see your dialogue. Heck, "Let's face it. Anything is better than dying." is still grammatically correct. But I would advise a semicolon; but, I am assuming we're talking about a character who's well composed about the situation and not screaming hysterically.

[edit]
Given how "let's face it" can be used, the monster example might be a tad ambiguous. You would hope the punctuation would prevent that problem, but it might not work for everybody; they might interpret it the same way I did. I might use: "Let's face the damn thing", "Let's kick its butt" or something similar instead.

Fallout
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 17:28
@Mr Handy - Is English your first language?

mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 17:32 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 17:36
@Fallout
No. Is it bad?

@Seppuku Arts
There is an direct expanded explanation, so it can't be ;

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 17:41 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 17:44
Depends on how Fallout intends to use it. If these are two independent statements that are related then the semicolon works.

The two independent statements are:
"Let's face it."
And
"Anything is better than dying."

They are not dependent of each other and would make sense as independent sentences.

As these 2 clauses are related they can be separated by a semicolon.

In a different context it would be a different matter (like with my argument to use a colon).

Fallout
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 17:44 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 17:45
@Sep - I see where you're coming from; a stinking pit of urine. Semicolon in full flow! Or is it? Maybe. The more you think about it, the more confused you get! Actually, it could be a colon!

Quote: ""Let's face it, you need a knuckle sandwich for not giving me the context.""


When I read that, I imagine you saying that to me face (obviously preparing to run away). I can easily envisage you saying "Let's face it." then pausing for a long time for dramatic effect before delivering the threat. To me that suggests a comma isn't suitable.

"I take issue with you, your face, and your argument!" If you put large pauses where the commas would be, it just wouldn't work.

Where as:
"Let's face it <nod nod, wry smile, slow pick up of a baseball bat, look you in the eye, wink at your mother> you're going to die."
That works!

If you can provide a sentence with a comma that reads right to me and works with a really long dramatic pause, then I can burn that argument in the fire of wrongness.

@Mr Handy - I confess I'm no expert with the English language, but all your examples read very badly to me.

BatVink
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 18:02
It's a mute point; The X-Factor is not better than dying.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 18:51 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 18:59
Quote: "When I read that, I imagine you saying that to me face (obviously preparing to run away). I can easily envisage you saying "Let's face it." then pausing for a long time for dramatic effect before delivering the threat. To me that suggests a comma isn't suitable.

"I take issue with you, your face, and your argument!" If you put large pauses where the commas would be, it just wouldn't work. "


Good, you're thinking on the right track. So that eliminates the comma from your list. You can see one reason why I posted an argument 'for' using a colon in my first reply.

A colon could create a pause, not a very big one, but bigger than a comma. In speech you might have:
"I have a few items for you to collect [breathe in] I want a TV, a leather sofa, a packet of crisps, champagne and a Sex And The City DVD boxset." (Jokes on them, they can't watch that terrible show without a DVD player)

So now, lets try something else.

"Let's face it: you need a knuckle sandwich for not giving me the context."

It doesn't look right to me, not for speech anyway, maybe it works for other people, but personally I might do it differently. Here I might use an exclamation mark to emphasise the first clause. Yes, it would create 2 different sentences, but I'd argue it's permissable because you're breaking the 2 clauses to put emphasis on the first. An ellipsis "..." is useful for a different kind of emphasis, but it's not one I'd use in my last example.

An exclamation mark doesn't necessarily suggest a person is shouting, but it might suggest a slight change in their voice to draw attention to it. In an argument a person might say, "Let's face it!" to draw attention to the fact they're about to make a point and they won't need to emphasise what they're about to say because they've already got people's attention. In a situation where people are panicking, a person may do the same because they want everybody in the room to listen. If the person is Brian Blessed then it will all be in caps, it will use exclamation marks and you'll go deaf from reading it.

However, I think how you use your punctuation in dialogue mostly depends on how the character is meant to say it and context isn't the only factor here but characterisation too.

For example, here is the dialogue for one of my characters:
Quote: "
"I see they got you too." I say.
"Yeah. B...but." He stutters, "I'm not going to l...let them get to me. They..." he points a finger to his temple, "th...they get inside of your mind. They i...invade. They...they won't f...find what they want...ahaha! They're just going to have to just…kill me. I am u...unbreakable. Wh...what about you?"
He grips tight to the bars, his face is pressed; he points his right hand out and pulls it back in again. "You...you...why are you here?"
"

(can't remember if that's from my old draft or the revised one)

You might argue I've overused the ellipses, it needs to be represent the character's manic speech, yet at the same time be readable. The ellipses are to represent the breaking of speech, plus there's the repitition and short sentences. His mind is broken so he can only speak in chunks rather than a long consistent line of speech. So I am not worried about writing it if I were writing a covering letter for a job application nor am I worried about how the clauses are related to one and another just because of how this character speaks.

Also, because I write in first person perspective I try to employ the narrator's own voice.

One of the things about writing stylistically, particularly when it comes to dialogue is that you first understand grammar and how it works, find you have to break those rules where you see fit. The important thing about speech, which I think people sometimes forget, is that it's FULL of grammatical errors. Heck, a person's train of thought is grammatically incorrect too, so why should you force yourself to represent it in a grammatically correct fashion? Regardless, bear in mind text has to be readable. Hence my narrative, despite being the voice of my main character, complies more with standardised English than select characters who are either insane or speak in colloquialisms.

So when it comes to your dialogue, I think you're on the right track thinking about how you're using the pauses, because you're thinking how people speak. I think if you're trying to best represent speech, then just write it as it would be spoken. Then look at what you've written and see if it reads back as you imagined it and then ask how readable it is. Grammar helps with readability, hence we use standardised English.

[edit]

BatVink, I think that wins the argument right there.

Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 19:55 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 20:06
@Seppuku... I DISAGREE!

The fact is that "Let's face it" is an aside; the real sentence here is "Anything is better than death.", so we should use a comma: "Let's face it, anything is better than death."

I will try to explain why the other options are incorrect.

First off, we can't use a semi-colon or a period because "Let's face it." isn't a complete statement, it doesn't make sense on its own.

Lastly we need to explain away the colon (this one is tricky). The reason "Let's face it: anything is better than death." doesn't work is because what comes after a colon should expand on what came before. We expand on "it", but "it" isn't actually the subject of the first part; the subject is the proposal that we agree on "it". I think the phrasing makes it tricky to see the grammar here, so let's rephrase it: "Let's agree: anything is better than death.", this is wrong because we haven't introduced what it is that we must agree on, so we cannot expand on a subject we don't have.
If the sentence was instead "One thing's for certain: anything is better than dying.", using a colon would be correct, because we've introduced the "one thing".

I almost used a colon in that last sentence but I realised it would be incorrect. Examine: "Using a colon would be correct: because we've introduced the subject." Can you see why this is wrong? The subject of the first part concerns the correct usage of colons, not why using a colon in that case was correct. (I realise this is a confusing sentence to use!) If we read the first half of the sentence, we would expect the text that follows the colon to look something like this: "Using a colon would be correct: colons are used to expand on the subject."

I find colons and semi-colons really confusing but reading "The Penguin Guide to Punctuation" really helped me, and it's not as boring as it sounds. (I actually enjoyed reading it!)

I had to double check because it is so confusing but it appears I am right. "Let's face it, we're not going to win." is the example given by the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus. The difficulty with the phrase "Let's face it" is that the "it" is implied, it's not being used like a normal "it".

Shh... you're pretty.
mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 20:19 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 20:22
Quote: "but all your examples read very badly to me."

That's how google translates books. Anyway, those were good examples of semicolon usage.
Quote: "The two independent statements are"

Totally disagree. Let's face what? It is ALWAYS depends on something.

Fallout
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 20:22
"Let's face it." is definitely a sentence! It makes perfect sense.

I want it.
I like it.
Bring it here.
Give me it.
Let's face it.

All completely valid sentences.

Will read the remaining bible posts in this thread after dinner.

Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 20:22 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 20:30
@BatVink
It's a moot point: The X-Factor is not better than dying.
GIB

@Fallout
Quote: "
I want it.
I like it.
Bring it here.
Give me it.
Let's face it.

All completely valid sentences."

The "it" in "Let's face it." is different, it means "Let's face the fact that." and that isn't a sentence. This is why it's best not to use colloquialisms in formal writing: they are damn confusing and messy.

Shh... you're pretty.
mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 20:26
Quote: "Let's face it." is definitely a sentence!"

Thank you, Captain Obvious. We were talking about dependance.

Fallout
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 20:31
I was reponding to Obese87 ...

Quote: ""Let's face it." isn't a complete sentence."


At least, I read it as that. It now says statement! But either way, that is no argument for not using a semicolon. In fact, that is an argument for using a semicolon, since using one implies the next sentence is related to it.

mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 21:14 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 21:21
Quote: "I was reponding to Obese87 ..."

Oh well.

Write any symbol of your choice, who cares. If you prefer opinions to rules.

Wiki:
Quote: " Applications of the semicolon in English include:
1. Between items in a series or listing containing internal punctuation, especially parenthetic commas, where the semicolons function as serial commas."
- not a listing
Quote: "2. Between closely related independent clauses not conjoined with a coordinating conjunction."
- dependent on subject
Quote: "3. Between independent clauses linked with a transitional phrase or a conjunctive adverb"
- not that case
That's it.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 21:28
Quote: "Totally disagree. Let's face what? It is ALWAYS depends on something."


Depends on the context. You'll see earlier I suggested the statement isn't independent, but Fallout added some context to the statement where "it" is implied, the 'it' is not the statement that follows but something like, say, a monster. So you're facing the monster and not the statement that follows. Specific to the context Fallout was giving in one of his examples the semi-colon is useful. E.G.

"Oh no it's Godzilla, what shall we do?"
"Let's face it."

The subject is already defined by the first speaker and the subject is 'Godzilla', so rather than redefing the subject the second speaker just uses the pronoun 'it', we might do the same with 'him' and 'her'.

"Oh no, your mum is going to eat us alive."
"Let's face her."
"What, like challenge her to a duel?"
"No, just take our punishment like grown ups."



Quote: "First off, we can't use a semi-colon or a period because "Let's face it." isn't a complete statement, it doesn't make sense on its own."


We covered this Mr Obese sir. I was using the same argument, because of how I understood Fallout. But you can see some examples where 'Let's Face it," can make sense on its own as a sentence but it relies heavily on context because what the 'it' refers to is only implied. Take the context away and 'it' needs to be defined.

An example of context:
"Oh no scary monster! What shall we do?"
"Let's face it."

Or

"Oh no a crocodile is facing us!"
"Well, let's face it."


And context is not the only thing we're dealing with here but how a specific character speaks. After all we are dealing with a piece of dialogue and we're not just looking at it formally, unfortunately dialogue is full of colloquialisms.

I do find the use of the colon in the statement to be odd but I do need think it is grammatically incorrect, so, I think there is an argument for using it, even if it wouldn't be my choice. As I said, I would personally go for something else, maybe an exclamation mark. You argue it as an aside, I argue it as something that might be emphasised, though Fallout hasn't actually said what his intention is. Fallout said for him reading it with a comma is too fluid and in speech he hears a pause. A colon can do that, the sentence opens with a statement and it follows with an explanation - between the two there's probably room for breathing in. It is arguable if you're looking at it like that then the colon is suitable. But as you're being evil and are actually grabbing back up. I'll get a semi-colon definition from you and not from Wikipedia, honest!
The Oxford Dictionary says:
Quote: "A punctuation mark with three main uses: to introduce a list: There are two other varieties of cedarwood oil: Texas (Juniperus ashei) and Virginian (juniperus virginiana). to introduce a piece of direct speech, or a quotation: At once he said: ‘I do not mean your immediate brief journey.’ to separate two parts of a sentence where the first leads on to the second: And that is the end of the poor man’s hopes: there is no return to eligibility. "

I would say the sentence is more like the example at the bottom of that quote. Where one statement leads onto the other.

I think it is as I had originally said, a choice between a comma and semi-colon. At least it would be compatible with how the 2 of us are looking at it.


Either way, I think there's actually different possibilities and I'd say it depends on context. Because one context would allow for the 2 statements to be independent whilst another means they're dependent. Then of course you throw in things like how the character actually speaks and if their speech is so horribly grammatically incorrect then find some middle ground where the reader isn't struggling to read it and the characters sounds authentic.

This is probably why people find it hard to write dialogue.

nonZero
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 21:36
Uh, you got it all wrong.

Let's face it, anything is better than dying; <-- Semicolon
Always remember the semicolon;
Never forget the semicolon;
Unless you are
splitting it up over
multiple lines;

Seriously, all valid points but I'd go for:
Let's face it, anything's better than dying.
If it was regular speech. It makes it more flowy and natural in the conversational tone. If it was more of a point being made, I'd go for:
Let's face it: Anything is better than dying
So it depends how you wanna come across. I would discard is for 's if you use the comma. If not, then use the is and italics since the colon requires a certain emphasis on ANYTHING. I do know the period is definitely out and I wouldn't use the semi-colon coz it feels wrong when I read it. Just my opinion. I'm no expert.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 22:18
Quote: "Let's face it, anything is better than dying; <-- Semicolon
Always remember the semicolon;
Never forget the semicolon;
Unless you are
splitting it up over
multiple lines;"


Spoken like a true programmer;

Quote: "Just my opinion. I'm no expert."


When you're talking about style, there's all sorts of ways of doing it. It really depends on the effect you want to create and how you want your reader to read it.

Fallout
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 00:45
Quote: "Seriously, all valid points but I'd go for:
Let's face it, anything's better than dying.
If it was regular speech. It makes it more flowy and natural in the conversational tone. If it was more of a point being made, I'd go for:
Let's face it: Anything is better than dying"


I like this summary. It makes the most sense to me. As a casual statement the comma seems to work, but as a strongly made point, the colon seems appropriate.

Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 01:04
Lets face it, I understood every single one as the same thing.

my signature keeps being erased by a mod So this is my new signature.
Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 03:59 Edited at: 5th Sep 2012 04:01
@NonZero
I like your use of italics. How about: "Let's face it, anything is better than dying.", it flows well when reading and the emphasis gives a natural spoken rhythm.

Are we all agreed? Now on to sentence #2.

I think we opened a can of worms here; I'm glad coding syntax is simpler. (Every time I use a semi-colon I wonder if it's right )

Shh... you're pretty.
Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 06:12
mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 09:31
I already posted that. Nah, that thread is trolled.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 20:54
I'd suggest not using the colon, not because it's wrong but just because it's very rare and seems surprising, detracting from the point of the sentence. I'd only ever expect to see it before a list, never in the middle of a sentence. Personally I'd use the comma (and I do think that's the correct answer) but only because of ease of use.

nonZero
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 23:10
@Obese:
Okay, we'll go with that then because let's face it, anything is better than debating a punctuation mark

And here's some bonus study material:


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