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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Freedom Engine........not so keen about this!

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The Daddy
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Posted: 18th Sep 2012 10:43
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I know this should be in the FE board but not enough people there yet for feedback....

I just actually read the T's and C's and read:

Automatically or remotely update or amend the Freedom Engine Service, including any software downloaded onto your computer....

So TGC can, if contracts are breached, access our hard drives......what if they make a mistake and scrub your code. Yes we should back up grandfather, father, son copies.....but most do not.

Not sure I like others accessing my hard drive under any circumstances.......

Constantly seeking!
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Van B
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Posted: 18th Sep 2012 10:57
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That's not what it means, it just means that TGC reserve the right to update any software used by the Freedom Engine. The main issue might just be the WebGL library, that probably get's updated all the time, FE needs to be able to support that.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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Hodgey
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Posted: 18th Sep 2012 11:05
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Quote: "So TGC can, if contracts are breached, access our hard drives......what if they make a mistake and scrub your code. "

I can't speak for TGC themselves but I'd say that would be a serious breach of privacy.

Also, it says that they can amend "Software", IMO code isn't software, it's data. I think that the above statement refers to something like an IDE (which might be available for download in the future) which they can update remotely.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Sep 2012 11:49 Edited at: 18th Sep 2012 11:49
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My knowledge of law is not significant, so don't take what I say as golden. TGC are based in the UK and would be bound by UK law and we have the Data Protection Act, we are able to give people permission to access private data. However, the agreement is to update or amend the FE service and software downloaded, this only applies to the program itself. They can only update or amend, that's all you've agreed to. If they remotely access your drive and do more than you've agreed to, it would be against the law.

I'm not sure what they mean by software downloaded. As Hodgey says, that could be an IDE update.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Sep 2012 12:07
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the site needs that cookie law applied to it unless I missed it somewhere...

apart from that, I can understand what it means by update the locally stored data, it just means while you are using the site... not exactly when you are not on the site... that would be a breach...

as with anybody on here, this is my view on the matter... not in any way a legal butene...

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baxslash
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Posted: 18th Sep 2012 15:28
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Van B is right guys, we aren't claiming ownership of your code or planning on hacking into your computer to wipe your code... let's be sensible. The T & C's are standard legal speak for just about any software these days.

Thanks though, I needed a good laugh


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BatVink
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Posted: 18th Sep 2012 18:30
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If it was possible to get to your private data and programs via your web browser (viruses aside!), I think there would be bigger problems to deal with than FE


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ICERGB
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Posted: 15th Dec 2012 16:19
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Im wondering if it allows the Freedom Engine creators to actually go through your code? Pick the best methods of coding, which might not actually be to bad of a thing? Or would be?
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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Dec 2012 16:31
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I don't personally have the time to trawl through hundreds or thousands of lines of code in the hope of finding a gem. I wouldn't worry about that


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DVader
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Posted: 15th Dec 2012 16:56
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Has the sound bug been fixed yet? Last time I tried freedom, it crashed on any loadsound command. Also the text for my scores and such went all curly lol.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 15th Dec 2012 22:46
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ICERGB - thanks. I needed a good laugh.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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AgentSam
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Posted: 17th Dec 2012 08:52 Edited at: 17th Dec 2012 08:56
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CODE SECURITY?

ICERGB:
Quote: "Im wondering if it allows the Freedom Engine creators to actually go through your code? Pick the best methods of coding, which might not actually be to bad of a thing? Or would be?"


Of course they COULD go through the code submitted to FE - obviously it's technically possible.

But then again, any of the online cloud storage providers can (technically) do that:
Comparison of online backup services

FE AS A TEACHING TOOL? (PROGRAMMING COURSE)

Personally, I will not be using FE to develop my own software products. (Excepting some minor cases.)

But, I have considered the possibility of including FE as a teaching platform at the high school (the Finnish "lukio"). FE provides some attractive features for education. Namely:
* Free to use (low cost, no cost)
* Browser based (no need to install, good for any computer class)
* Clould data storage (data available anywhere, great for students)
* Simple language structure (easy to learn, easy to teach)

Use of FE as a teaching platform is something that I would like to get more information on.

Could someone from TGC comment on this - which type of licensing would this require, if any?

Case example:

Let's say I was about to give a one year programming course aimed at beginners and intermediate skill levels, and wanted to use FE on that course. Would this be possible, legally speaking?

While reading the "Terms And Conditions", which is the closest thing to a license agreement I could find on the FE site, there's this:

Quote: "
What you can't do
Use the Freedom Engine Service (including any storage space allocated to you) to do anything other than create games and other applications using the Freedom Engine Service.
"


So, it would seem, that the terms and conditions excludes the use of FE as a teaching tool, since in legalese that would constitute more than "creating games and other applications", no?

Could we get a clarification on this...? Please.

Cheers,
AgentSam - The grumpy old software engineer
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MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Dec 2012 08:58
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Thats interesting... so we cannot create apps which are not games?

Also I just want to point out...

Quote: "
* Browser based (no need to install, good for any computer class)
"


Not entirely true unless the I.T. team have installed a compatible browser on all machines...



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baxslash
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Posted: 17th Dec 2012 09:20
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Quote: "So, it would seem, that the terms and conditions excludes the use of FE as a teaching tool, since in legalese that would constitute more than "creating games and other applications", no?"

I will find out for you Agent Sam. I would imagine we would love to have FE used as a teaching platform I imagine it's more a case of excluding illegal activities of some sort.

Using FE and /or AppGameKit as a teaching resource seems to be only in TGC's interest in my opinion. Hold that thought.

Quote: "Thats interesting... so we cannot create apps which are not games?"

The quote actually says Games and Other Applications Mr.V


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RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 17th Dec 2012 09:29
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Hi,

At this stage of Freedom Engine's life we are happy for people to use FE in school settings to teach students. We sort of see FE as a primer to moving on to AppGameKit at some point.

FE still has a long way to go (as does AGK) but it's a stake in the ground and we'll evolve it over time and we think it will become very significant as people start to migrate to more cloud based systems.

AgentSam - please let us know how you get on. If you do get a school using this then we'd love to do an article about in in the newsletter.

Cheers,

Rick

Financial Director
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AgentSam
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Posted: 17th Dec 2012 10:25 Edited at: 17th Dec 2012 12:06
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RickV:
Quote: "AgentSam - please let us know how you get on. If you do get a school using this then we'd love to do an article about in in the newsletter.
"


I'll let you know as the situation develops. Expect nothing in the short term -- I have offered my teaching services to a couple of schools and institutions in my area, and we're still working out the details. The spring season is a possibility. But if it doesn't happen then, it'll happen later.

In the meantime, I think it might be a good idea to amend the Terms and Conditions regarding use of FE for teaching -- to avoid any confusion -- and lessen any fears over litigation issues. For school administration these things are quite important.

Also, I searched the FE forums, but didn't find any previous talk of using FE for teaching (other than a few mentions of self-studies).

Surpricing -- since FE would be quite suitable as a teaching platform (although it doesn't have any built-in collaboration, communication, or shared data storage repositories for a class setting) - but I could work around most of these.

It might be a good idea to create a sticky thread for educators. Or, at least somehow "market" the product to educators by showing that it is a possibility. Just saying it, is sometimes enough, to peak the interest.

The things an educator will consider first, include the following:
* How much does it cost.
* Does the license really allow free usage for teaching.
* Where exactly in the license agreement does it say so? (This is what the administration will ask.)
* Are there student discounts available for GOLD subscriptions, etc.

Other things an educator will evaluate include:
* How reliable is FE? Is it stable enough to not crash all the time.
* Which browser is recommended for use with FE for best speed and reliability.
* How complete is the documentation.

Rick, I guess you sort of answered my questions about the "T/C".. but it certainly wouldn't hurt to put this in the official terms. Also, I have already found an answer to most of what I listed above, but others will have the same questions.

I'm not 100% convinced, that the school administration will be happy when I say, yea, I've talked with the TGC marketing director, and he says it's ok. They'll want to see the legalese.

Cheers,
AgentSam
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