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Geek Culture / driverless cars

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Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Sep 2012 21:37
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Just read on slashdot that California is the 3rd state to legalize driverless cars. My question is what happens if that car causes an accident? Who's at fault? Passengers don't pay for insurance on a vehicle. You can't sue a computer. Do you go after the car company? The chip programmer?

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
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Norion
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Posted: 26th Sep 2012 21:50
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How about we sue nobody, and all act like adults.

Car accindent ? Can happen to anybody, lets get the **** over it !

Martin.

P.S. good question though.

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Bootlicker
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Posted: 26th Sep 2012 21:50
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driverless cars? i havent heard of this.

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Norion
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Posted: 26th Sep 2012 21:54
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@ Bootlicker

Haven't seen you around in a long time. Am I right ?

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xplosys
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Posted: 26th Sep 2012 23:45
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I'm guessing that a driverless car still has to have liability insurance provided by the owner to operate on public highways.

I found this to be particularly amusing....

“Everybody might be bending the rules a little bit,” he said. “This is what the researchers are telling me — because the car is so polite it might be sitting at a four-way intersection forever, because no one else is coming to a stop.”

Brian.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

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old_School
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Posted: 26th Sep 2012 23:54 Edited at: 27th Sep 2012 01:05
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i remember watching a race a few years back involing driverless cars. This great for us rather you like it or not. Think about it. Most of us drive to avoid a accident because the other guy is typicaly a moron driver. So we elminate the moron behind the wheel. We also can elimnate the stupid drunk driver. Seriously drinking and drinking = dumbness. If you drink dont drive dummy. So i'm all for it and I cant wait to buy one, you got a price tag on these?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 00:18 Edited at: 27th Sep 2012 00:21
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That is an interesting perspective of it. What's worse computer error or human error? It does, however, remove control and makes it harder to avert a problem should one occur, so it might feel less safe. But if it works well, then I like the idea at least. But currently mixed views. I think the room for error would have to be pretty small, because if a problem does happen I'd like to the think I (or the person behind the wheel) has the ability to avert danger. You can't really swerve out of the way when you've got a machine in control.

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JLMoondog
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 01:07
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I remember watching this sci-fi movie where they had driverless cars, but you could also take manual control with a flip of a switch. I think in an emergency situation they'd have a fail safe for the cars?

Honestly I'll never own a driverless car, I love to drive.

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Rampage
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 01:22
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Google driver less cars are really quite amazing. If you go on there channel on YouTube you can get an overview on how the technology works.
The car is pretty much aware of all obstacles, 360 degrees around it.

I agree it would be safer than driving as it is now. Especially if a drunk decides to take the wheel...

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Indicium
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 01:56
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I've always thought it'd be a great idea.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 02:12
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Kinda boring, isn't it?

Then there's no need for diversity in cars, no joy of driving.

It reminds me of a Top Gear season finale, where Jeremy Clarkson reflects that with climate change, low oil stocks and other issues plaguing the industry, driving as we know it may very well die out soon.

I mean, it'll be cool to have ultra-green electric cars that drive themselves fifty years from now, sure. Safe, cleaner, better future. No fun, though. It'll be sad to see the petrolhead era pass.
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Indicium
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 02:42
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Quote: "It'll be sad to see the petrolhead era pass."


I reckon it'll reach a point where we can get more power from electric engines than we can petrol.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Airslide
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 03:24
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If people really miss driving, then maybe there will be a market for dedicated tracks of "manual driving" road. Racing obviously comes to mind (since we already do that) but who knows, maybe someday somebody will make a killing off of letting a few Average Joe's drive for a couple of hours on a figure 8 course with a stoplight
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MrValentine
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 03:40
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I think the Toyota City emphasis needs to be adapted or else the dangers will be ovwrwhelming no matter how smart the cars sensors are...

By this I mean indeed that every vehicle within said city or any city employing these vehicles must only use driverless vehicles... As a human driver can suddenly do anything... Imagine a 30tonne lorry/truck losing control at high speeds (and it does happen) and your automatic car has no idea what just happened and inside that split second it detected an object but was probably just thinking nothing of it... Whereas a human would at least attempt to swerve out of the way... Or floor the gas pedal...

Anyway its late and I think I have written enough to spark further debate... I am so tired I will just snooze as soon as I click send...

Hope you all good...

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old_School
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 06:09
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I think the joy of driving is engraved in our brains because we currently drive. Fastforward 50 years the kids of tommarow will not likely drive often or even care to drive. It will likely be a skill that fades away. Look at a few hndred years ago we crafted everything by hand mostly and people loved working with there hands. Of course we all enjoy working with our hands but nearly on the level it was 200 years ago. So technologly really changes everything including culture.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 13:42
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Quote: "“Everybody might be bending the rules a little bit,” he said. “This is what the researchers are telling me — because the car is so polite it might be sitting at a four-way intersection forever, because no one else is coming to a stop.”"


Interesting. I read also that google made their system slightly aggressive, cuz they were getting stuck in intersections The car would lurch forward to try and make a power play to go through.

If we had driverless cars, trucks and cars could communicate with eachother when an event is happening and react far, far quicker than people.

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Indicium
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 14:49
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Quote: "inside that split second it detected an object but was probably just thinking nothing of it."


Why on earth would anyone program a car to ignore the 30 tonne mass hurtling towards it?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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xplosys
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 15:36
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There will always be decisions where the human factor is needed, such as recognizing a police uniform when he is directing you to stop, turn into a detour or around an accident. I'd also like to see how this works in a busy parking lot.

Brian.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

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bitJericho
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 16:40 Edited at: 27th Sep 2012 16:43
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Quote: "I'd also like to see how this works in a busy parking lot."


Parking lots could be a thing of the past if everyone had autocars. We'd just have garages and small temporary parking.

Quote: "There will always be decisions where the human factor is needed, such as recognizing a police uniform when he is directing you to stop, turn into a detour or around an accident."


Robots/devices that wirelessly tell the car hundreds of meters before a person would even normally notice.
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Libervurto
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 18:33
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Quote: "Seriously drinking and drinking = numbness."

Fixed that for you old_school.

Shh... you're pretty.
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 18:55
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Yeah, I also like the concept of inter-car communication a lot. Could potentially help with everything from visibility/ accidents through to general traffic flow. Probably all kinds of weird benefits really.

If we make the cars smarter, then we should look for low cost ways for improving road infrastructure. GPS is great, but it's not an instant win. So perhaps traffic signals, road elements (bridges/Carparks), even shops could have positional broadcasting, or even relay the density of traffic ahead or something.


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JLMoondog
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 19:41
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If cars could communicate and were able to adjust their route/speed/etc automatically, it would essentially eliminate traffic lights.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 19:53
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Quote: "If cars could communicate and were able to adjust their route/speed/etc automatically, it would essentially eliminate traffic lights."


Not to mention entire families and all their friends would just share a single vehicle. Who needs their own car when you only need to be in a car for 20 minutes a day? Maybe cars will be provided through taxes from the government, and it'll be like sidewalks, only they move us faster.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 19:53 Edited at: 27th Sep 2012 19:57
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Quote: "If cars could communicate and were able to adjust their route/speed/etc automatically, it would essentially eliminate traffic lights."


Except for zebra crossings of course (unless the cars slow down at the approach of one, just like drivers are meant to but never do).

I think potentially computers could manage driving a lot better than a person could. Instead of the average 1s reaction time it'd be more like 1ms, and the computer could analyse its surroundings much better than any person could (even making use of infrared etc to detect people and animals at night).
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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 20:39
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I like this idea. I can imagine that eventually there could be some sort of service where you don't even need your own car, you just call up an unused car to come to you and take you where you want to go. Sort of like a robot taxi/Zipcar type deal. The "what if something suddenly jumps out in front of the car?" issue is the first thing that was addressed, so I have no concerns about that whatsoever. My only concern would be that, while I'm sure the total number of accidents would go down drastically, one bug in the software would lead to mass problems until it gets patched.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 20:48
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Hackers genuinely would be able to cause traffic jams like in the movies.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 21:30 Edited at: 27th Sep 2012 21:34
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Quote: "Hackers genuinely would be able to cause traffic jams like in the movies. "


They can right now by messing with the lights. They can also hack into computer car systems right now. They could also just drive a car like a maniac or blow something up. The fact is, the vast majority of the time, none of that happens. Add to that the security sector is taking a keen interest in protecting car systems that I don't think it'll be a roadblock for driverless cars to take over.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 22:07
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Quote: "I remember watching this sci-fi movie where they had driverless cars, but you could also take manual control with a flip of a switch. I think in an emergency situation they'd have a fail safe for the cars?"


Demolition Man?


The thought of driverless cars has several benefits, such as drunk driving. But I think we're still a long way off from removing the human aspect from driving altogether. You would need an incredibly advanced system to detect potential threats. Creating a proactive system rather than reactive.

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 23:11
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The transition period would be tough, too. It would take decades for people to let go of their old cars, and there would still be people holding onto vintage and classic cars because they enjoy them.

In that way, you'd either have to do a total conversion, costing crazy amounts of money to convert all vehicles to driverless. In the process, changing road systems so that placemarkers denote the paths the driving AI should take, as well as an infrastructure for the cars to communicate and organise routes. Add to that the issue with motor enthusiasts not being too happy with having their car control taken away - and freedom enthusiasts being unhappy with having a machine control their driving.

Converting rural infrastructure would take considerable pains, too. I don't doubt that it'll cause issue with green parties due to the building of the AI infrastructure for cars to wirelessly communicate in the countrside.

It'd either be that, a large and costly changeover with significant resistance, or the alternative. Cars will slowly implement this technology, but as an option. I can't imagine a driverless car being trusted explicitly off the bat. Your wife and kids are in the car, do you let it drive itself? There's the ever-present fear of a malfunction, bug or error that would negate trust for a lot of people.

While the cars may react faster, blind corners on country roads would probably give the AI a minimal warning against an oncoming non-AI driver. It'd react faster, no doubt, but the swerving on narrow roads would likely end with someone in a hedge anyway. Either that, or some very queasy passengers.

There's also the limitations of the car itself. Does everyone have to buy top of the line, in order for the car to react as fluidly as the AI? Many people drive clapped-out bangers because they can't afford such things. In the current economy, that'll only intensify.

Insurance? If the cars never crash, how will that work? There's crazy amounts of money involved in that industry, and I can't see them taking the hit for a new breed of cars that never crash. Where the driver is irrelevant, therefore they cannot discriminate on the person and increase pricing.

In a better world, this would take off. I kinda hope it does. But the world has a whole lot of money seeping out of the car industry, and I don't know if politicians will bite the bullet from car enthusiasts, right-wingers who want their control, insurance companies, etc, etc. I think votes would fall under this plan, and that's before they'd unveil the budget from taxpayers to begin upgrading the roads to work with what I presume would be akin to a Wifi-hotspot based system that links servers to organise car journeys.

Sadly though, I'd be in favour of keeping control. One car has a bug in the supposed traffic-light free environment, and it could cause a horrific pile-up. One blind spot could have lanes of traffic careening into each other.

I mean, do the cars see debris on the road?
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Phaelax
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 23:30
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Quote: "I don't doubt that it'll cause issue with green parties due to the building of the AI infrastructure for cars to wirelessly communicate in the countrside."


I was thinking the cars would act more like bittorrent clients, where there is no central server.
The cars would communicate with those around it within a certain range

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Sep 2012 23:43
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Quote: "In that way, you'd either have to do a total conversion, costing crazy amounts of money to convert all vehicles to driverless. In the process, changing road systems so that placemarkers denote the paths the driving AI should take, as well as an infrastructure for the cars to communicate and organise routes."


The cars currently use GPS, cameras, and various other sensors to determine their routes, the speed limits, stop signs, lights, potential dangers, and everything else needed to drive, so no changes would be necessary.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 28th Sep 2012 00:04
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Yes, but of course we don't want to give the robots TOO much power http://what-if.xkcd.com/5/


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Jimpo
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Posted: 30th Sep 2012 20:29 Edited at: 30th Sep 2012 20:30
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Quote: "My question is what happens if that car causes an accident? Who's at fault?"

I've been wondering this myself! I remember Google saying their driverless cars have only ever been in one accident, and that was when someone else rear ended them at a traffic light. I wonder what went through the guys mind when he realized the car he hit had no driver. Kinda hard to say in court that it was the perfect driving robots fault, not yours.

Quote: "Except for zebra crossings of course (unless the cars slow down at the approach of one, just like drivers are meant to but never do)."

I remember watching a clip one of Google's driverless cars going through a wooded area at night and a deer jumps out in front of the car. The car promptly stops, lets the deer cross, then continues driving.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 30th Sep 2012 22:11
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Quote: "I remember watching a clip one of Google's driverless cars going through a wooded area at night and a deer jumps out in front of the car. The car promptly stops, lets the deer cross, then continues driving."


One good thing about letting a computer handle everything is that it can handle analysis and response in small fraction of a second, much much faster than any human can. If the average reaction time for a person is 1 second that means a self-driving car would have almost an extra second to apply the brakes or do whatever it needs to do.
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