Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Method of Reducing PCB Complexity

Author
Message
Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 08:55 Edited at: 21st Jan 2013 08:56
Greetings fellow forumites! The other day I had an idea for a method of reducing the overall complexity of PCBs, and I think it has a few upsides and downsides, so I'd like to see what some other people here who might have some electrical engineering knowledge think of it.

I was thinking of some sort of thing like an FPGA, it would be a programmable logic IC, but it would have a crap load of pins and each component on the entire board would connect directly to their own set of pins on the device. Each component being connected to their own set of pins, the chip would be able to connect these pins internally according to the program stored on it to connect the components properly according to the schematics.

Basically what would be happening here is the components would simply have all of their leads fan in to this central connection chip, and all of the actual connections that normally take up tons of PCB traces and extra PCB layers would all be held within the chip, simplifying board design and making it cheaper to manufacture.

The major downside of such a device would very likely be issues related to higher speed electronics, as each connection made being routed through this device would consequently be required to travel a particularly far distance, not always good for higher speed devices. Now, this side effect can be reduced by removing the precedent that ALL connections are made through this device.

So what are you peoples' thoughts on this, mainly yee electrical engineers?

I have no signature.
MrValentine
AGK Backer
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Dec 2010
Playing: FFVII
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 09:37 Edited at: 21st Jan 2013 11:08
Not an engineer of the sort, yet...

But I think I get the concept here, you want to reduce the sizes of the PCBs by reducing the hectic amount of wiring they need to keep the signals consistent and timely, by introducing a single large block housing these wire lengths...

I think the concept might involve a significant cost up front for development... but I think with the advent of NanoElectronics, this thould be possible these days...

I like the idea, and I think it would be cool to see a central nerve box on a main board, I would sit there all day looking at it lol

Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 10:14
Quote: "But I think I get the concept here, you want to reduce the sizes of the PCBs by reducing the hectic amount of wiring they need to keep the signals consistent and timely, by introducing a single large block housing these wire legnths..."
That is exactly it! Great job summarizing my entire post in a short sentence that makes way more sense than mine does!

But yes, about the dev costs, it would be an IC developed one time, then due to its programmable nature, it would simply be able to be programmed specifically to simulate the schematic of whatever circuit it's being used in. In fact, with limitations, a modern day FPGA or similar programmable logic device could also carry out the same functionality, but in a more limited fashion.

I have no signature.
MrValentine
AGK Backer
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Dec 2010
Playing: FFVII
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 11:09
Glad I managed to grab the brain wave as it passed by [Electronic Joke]

TheComet
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 12:39 Edited at: 21st Jan 2013 12:45
To some degree, this is already done in the mobile manufacturing market. Resistors, capacitors, coils, and a few other basic components can be created by carving shapes into the copper using a laser instead of having to solder components onto the board.

I have to disagree with you on one of your points, namely:
Quote: "[...] and making it cheaper to manufacture."


Using a central chip instead of wiring everything directly would cost more to produce.

Anyway, my thoughts on this are that it wouldn't be of any use in mass production, and would be of little use for prototyping. There are two main reasons why I'd deny such a chip, speed and costs aside.

1) Your idea is flawed. You're not saving routes, you're actually producing more of them. Think about it, if I had a simple low pass filter (R series, C parallel), normally there would be 2 entries in the net list. But since you're connecting every component through a central IC, You'd effectively have 6 entries (worst case). So your idea of saving space is nothing more than an illusion, because every "pin" on every one of your components would have at least double the amount of connections to make.

Also, let me just put something into perspective for you. My current project has 576 entries in the net list, so your IC would need at least double the amount of pins. Not even an Intel i7 processor has that many pins.

2) ICs like this already exist. You named one yourself, FPGA. Another group that used to be used a lot are PLEs (programmable logic element) such as the GAL. They're pretty much obsolete now though, because micro controllers are cheaper and more dynamic.

These days, if you want to have a more dynamic circuit, the logical choice is to just use a micro controller. If the micro controller isn't fast enough, or a faster micro controller exceeds the cost of an FPGA or CPLD, those are the next choice in line.

In conclusion, there is no need to have the entire circuit dynamic, It's fine to hard-wire most of the circuit. You're never going to want to change the connections of, say, your voltage regulator, so there is no need for any more complexity.

The parts that do need to be dynamic are solved by using something along the lines of what you're thinking, a micro controller, FPGA or similar, but using this principle on the entire circuit would be an unnecessary waste of resources.

TheComet

http://blankflankstudios.tumblr.com/
"Man being a noob sucks! " - OBese87
Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 12:55
Ah, you confirmed many of my suspicions as to why this would not be a better solution.

But basically, my idea that this would make it cheaper to manufacture is that all components fan into the chip from around the chip, so there may be more traces involved overall but the design would appeal more simply to the brain, being all spoked and such from the center. But I do see how this would be more complex overall.

About that dynamic element of the chip, that be if the chip was mass manufactured and used in multiple circuits, not just one, so a chip would be programmed at the factory before being placed on the circuit to which it was programmed.

You mentioned a very simple circuit, such as a filter, in such a case you'd just connect those directly to each other, no need to route such a simple circuit through a central connection device.

But as you said, MCUs and such do seem to be much more practical in such times!

Also, I was never aware that FPGAs could be faster than a micro controller! I shall have to keep FPGAs in mind if I ever find a possible need for them. They are expensive though, aren't they?

I have no signature.
The Wilderbeast
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 13:04
FPGAs are not expensive at all - the chips themselves can be had (depending on specs) for as little as $10-20 given the right order quantity and distributor. What is really expensive is the development board.

TheComet
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 13:25
Quote: "You mentioned a very simple circuit, such as a filter, in such a case you'd just connect those directly to each other, no need to route such a simple circuit through a central connection device."


Oh, well now that I understand you fully, you're pretty much doing exactly what is being done already. Multiple groups of self-functioning circuitry (voltage regulator, filter, output stages etc.) all connected together through a central processing unit, almost always an MCU.

TheComet

http://blankflankstudios.tumblr.com/
"Man being a noob sucks! " - OBese87
Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 21:52
Ah, I see!

I have no signature.
Libervurto
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 22:49
Isn't this how most PCBs are designed? It's been a while since I did any electronics but even back then you could get chips that did a heck of a lot.

Shh... you're pretty.
Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 21st Jan 2013 22:53
Nah, PCBs tend to just use traces to connect stuff with no middle layer, but the occasional MCU is used as theComet described to simplify many aspects of the design.

I have no signature.
Dutrius
13
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Apr 2012
Location: Lost in all this code
Posted: 23rd Feb 2013 18:29
I think that for some specialist PCBs where space is at a premium (such as in rocketry and guided missiles) they use laminated boards with layers of conductive traces on the inside. This can help to reduce the size of the PCB, but generally icreases the cost because of greater complexity.

M31 or Bust!
Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 24th Feb 2013 00:28
Ah, that type of PCB is becoming quite popular these days; I'll bet your computer has one.
TheComet
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 24th Feb 2013 01:11
Multi-layer PCBs are pretty common at work. I once had to make a 6-layer PCB, it was actually a lot easier than a 2-layer because you're much more organized.

TheComet

http://blankflankstudios.tumblr.com/
"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." - Fluffy Rabbit
"Bottom line, people are retarded." - Fluffy Rabbit
The Wilderbeast
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posted: 24th Feb 2013 15:38 Edited at: 24th Feb 2013 15:39
It does sound like a neat idea, but would have limited application. Such a device would not be suitable for high-performance boards (such as mobos etc.) as each trace is carefully designed with a specific width, shape, and length in order to produce a pre-determined impedance to minimize phenomenons such as clock skew etc. in high precision circuits.

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2025-05-17 06:11:04
Your offset time is: 2025-05-17 06:11:04