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Geek Culture / Tomb Raider (2013 Reboot)

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Gingerkid Jack
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Posted: 14th Mar 2013 10:45
Has anyone else had the chance to play this game yet? I just finished the story and really enjoyed it! The visuals were stunning and the atmosphere was excellent. The journey Lara goes through from innocent 21 year old to bad ass warrior woman is really cool and fun to play! I recommend this game to everyone and in my opinion is one of the best games I have ever played! A great reboot to the series.

Gingerkid Jack - www.youtube.com/thegingerkidjack
Airslide
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Posted: 14th Mar 2013 15:07
I picked it up too a few days ago on a whim (the last game I grabbed - Dragon's Dogma - was a little too heavy for the brief periods of free time I have at the moment).

I'm only about half way through but so far I too am really enjoying it, much more so than I expected. I liked some of the earlier Tomb Raider games but this feels like it is in an entirely different league. It seems to share that quality with Half-Life where it tricks you into thinking you came up with something clever, even if it was designed to happen from the beginning.
Libervurto
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Posted: 14th Mar 2013 20:34
Why are games dropping their subtitles? "Tomb Raider", "Sim City", "Devil May Cry"


Quik
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Posted: 14th Mar 2013 21:25
because Reboots
DMC: DmC -> Reboot
Tomb Raider -> Reboot

not sure if sim city is a reboot..



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Mar 2013 22:27
I've been umming and ahhing about this game, not yet played it, my sister bought it for her PS3 and she really likes it, but looking at it, it reminds me more of a typical action game rather than a Tomb Raider game. Hence I am a little worried I might be disappointed by it. I've been finding some newer versions of game series I love are dropping gameplay elements that I felt were essential to the series.

I was talking about it with a guy at work today as well, because he picked it up, he says it's a really good game, but described it as being more action than puzzles. Which to me is a negative point, whilst I do enjoy action and action games, but I also like games that require me to use my brain and Tomb Raider was often a challenge to thought as well as skill. Like the Resident Evil games, they were partially about the action with zombies and also the mental side of solving puzzles. For example, I loved Tomb Raider: Underworld and not just because of its Viking themes.

The guy I spoke to also said it was a short game, I think he completed it in 8 hours, so if I do buy it, I think I might wait for it to go down in price.

Anyway, despite my potential disappointments, I am sure my expectation will be, "okay, I'm playing an action version of Tomb Raider" and I may end up really enjoying it as a more action focused game just as long as I'm not expecting what I'm used to. I have been pleasantly surprised in that way before. So my complaints might be for moot! Perhaps somebody who's played it will comment and tell me how wrong I am.

Quik
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Posted: 14th Mar 2013 22:39
Quote: "I've been umming and ahhing about this game, not yet played it, my sister bought it for her PS3 and she really likes it, but looking at it, it reminds me more of a typical action game rather than a Tomb Raider game. Hence I am a little worried I might be disappointed by it. I've been finding some newer versions of game series I love are dropping gameplay elements that I felt were essential to the series"



Game is great, but it is NOT a typical tomb raider game, if you go in thinking that you will raid tombs and do difficult platforming, then you WILL be disappointed



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Gingerkid Jack
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Posted: 14th Mar 2013 23:29
I prefer this Tomb Raider game to the old ones. I really like the new gritty telling of the story. Also Camilla Luddington (who does her voice and motion capture and who the model was based on) is hotter than the old Lara!

Gingerkid Jack - www.youtube.com/thegingerkidjack
Indicium
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 00:00
Quote: "Game is great, but it is NOT a typical tomb raider game"


Disagree, sure it's a little bit different. I think the main storyline has been toned down for the more 'modern' game audience ( those who like to run about shooting ), but people who like Tomb Raider should do the side quests, they're more of a challenge and puzzle solving like it should be.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Quik
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 00:13
the side quests are challanging.. where? I've done 3 and i spent about 10-20 minutes on each of them

and syaing "this is a old school tomb raider game becaue.. side quests" is hardly holding it - the storyline is NOTHING like the old tomb raider games - it's segments of shoot em up and occational extremely simple platforming.



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Indicium
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 00:16
10-20 minutes each isn't enough of a challenge for you? A personal favourite of mine was the Flooded Vault quest.

Quote: ""this is a old school tomb raider game becaue.. side quests""


Well, that's horrid paraphrasing - never mind horrid spelling. You can't say it's nothing like the older games because it is, it's all the same elements that made the earlier games. It's just evolved a little.

Definitely worth buying, or renting or something.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Airslide
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 02:11
Quote: "the side quests are challanging.. where? I've done 3 and i spent about 10-20 minutes on each of them"


There are side quests? The story seems to move so rapidly I didn't really realize there was time to do other things! Other than one or two optional tombs I stumbled in.

Quote: " but I also like games that require me to use my brain and Tomb Raider was often a challenge to thought as well as skill. "


I think this one does a pretty good job of incorporating a little more of the thinking into the combat. I don't think you'll be too disappointed by it.
Indicium
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 03:18
Quote: "There are side quests? "


The optional tombs are the side quests. I agree that the pace of the story seems too fast that you think you can expend time doing other things but... you can, so hey - you may as well.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Fuzz
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 04:20
I played it for almost 18 hours on my first run and completed all the tombs, upgraded my weapons and almost found all the collectables. I enjoyed it way more than the older Tomb Raider games.

This one is pretty much an Uncharted game with a female lead. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it so much.

Quik
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 07:53
I dont think the story moves too fast at all - it moves perfectly fine

however, it feels like it fell in the same trap as FarCry3

"OHGOD I JUST KILLED A PERSON >: *goes off killing thousands of people without caring*"

I just dont like that at all, the survival aspect is great, but its also the survival aspect that IMO is waay to fast paced, and this I noticed especially recently when she said <potential spoiler from 40ish % in>


Both Farcry 3 and Tomb raider both are "survival games", but you end up murdering half the islelands.. I just dont like that :/



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Thraxas
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 08:01
Quote: "however, it feels like it fell in the same trap as FarCry3

"OHGOD I JUST KILLED A PERSON >: *goes off killing thousands of people without caring*"
"


I haven't finished this yet, but I did finish Far Cry 3 and loved it. In Far Cry they did attempt to address this when Jason looked at his bloodied hands and said "What have I become?"... It didn't stop him (you) slaughtering anybody who looked at him sideways, but a feeble attempt was made...

So far I'm underwhelmed... but only because it's a Tomb Raider game and not because it's bad. I'm not that far into it and so perhaps I will start enjoying it more.

mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 08:32 Edited at: 15th Mar 2013 08:36
Quote: "Game is great, but it is NOT a typical tomb raider game"


Because it's the story BEFORE she came up as tomb raider.

Some grumpy mumbling about tressfx:
Also, I love how AMD is trying to showoff itself, but every time it's a selfslap. I mean tressfx. O.m.g. They use their programmers to help TR developers to make a single fake physics effect. They even have spreaded a hair shampoo-stlye commercial. Facepalm. In mcgee Alice hair was 100% physics-based and was really cool. And here is AMD's fake... when Lara's dirty, her hair is clean and shiny, when Lara's upside down, her hair is not (except ponytail). What a shame to AMD. And, of course, it's very glitchy. AMD gaming evolved means that AMD paid to show their logo, as it was in Resident evil 5, when they paid to prevent users with older amd cards to play the game when nvidia users were able. Now they making consoles graphics without awesome physics, fy.

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Gingerkid Jack
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 14:45
I bought the AMD 7950 3gb Graphics Card yesterday and it is waiting for me to finish work at my house It was a toss up between the 660ti or the 7950 and the AMD card is better stats wise for the same price, but I just feel so dirty for turning my back on nvidia for the first time in my life.

Gingerkid Jack - www.youtube.com/thegingerkidjack
Airslide
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 18:47
Quote: "Some grumpy mumbling about tressfx:"


I'm playing it on Xbox, so even if the game doesn't look as good as a high-end PC is capable of, at least the hair fits in just fine
Quik
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 18:51
tressfx looks good but it certanly does not fit in, as her hair should look gritty, shouldnt it?



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Indicium
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 19:05
This is the first game I've seen with this technology, they're never going to get it right first time around.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Mar 2013 21:29
Quote: "It was a toss up between the 660ti or the 7950 and the AMD card is better stats wise for the same price, but I just feel so dirty for turning my back on nvidia for the first time in my life."


I got a 650ti and love it. I was stuck between the choice of NVidia and AMD, but to be honest, both are very good manufacturers. I went NVidia is because it's what I'm used to, I don't think I've used ATI/AMD for more than 10 years.

Saying that, when I did my build, it was the first time I chose AMD over Intel and I don't regret it...at least I haven't so far.

Quik
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 01:09
Quote: "This is the first game I've seen with this technology, they're never going to get it right first time around."


I was just saying it didnt fit - as I said it does look great, but it doesnt fit laras gritty looks
the normal graphics are better IMO, once lara starts to get dirty and whatnot, in the opening sequence though, you might wanna use it - cuz then it actually fits



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Indicium
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 01:11
Quote: "I was just saying it didnt fit - as I said it does look great, but it doesnt fit laras gritty looks"


I'm only saying that they're never going to get it perfect the first time round.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
mr Handy
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 06:07
Quote: "This is the first game I've seen with this technology"


And I hope the last one; "technology" is hardcoded, it's not a library or plugin. So I don't think it's will be valuable for everyone except porn game makers.

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Indicium
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 12:37
I highly doubt it's hard coded. That's narrow minded to say the least, it looks much better.


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mr Handy
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 18:38 Edited at: 17th Mar 2013 06:27
If they were saying about releasing a tool or libraries to make such hair, but no. So it is hardcoded, like any other ingame effect like SSAO.

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Indicium
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 18:48
SSAO is done by a shader.


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mr Handy
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 06:26
shader is an external library?

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Indicium
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 14:05
Not exactly - but if your argument is based solely on the fact its hardcoded then libraries are hardcoded.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 14:36
Quote: "shader is an external library?"


Nope, but shaders aren't hardcoded. The application of a shader is, but the shader itself is not. Like a 3D model, a texture, a script or even a library. SSAO shaders aren't hardcoded, for example, you can download one here. Stuff like SSAO is a fullscreen shader, so normally you'd render it to a plane and attach it to the camera, which is really the only hardcoded thing about it. If I understand it correctly, the shader will fire raycasts to get the data it needs to render the SSAO to the image. More info about how such a shader works here.

So, if it's a shader, it doesn't need a library and doesn't need to be hardcoded, but can be redistributed and used by others without the need to steal source code or write their own. The only code they need to write is the code that applies the shader and uses it.

mr Handy
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 20:34 Edited at: 17th Mar 2013 20:39
Seppuku Arts
Quote: "which is really the only hardcoded thing about it"

No, you need to parse more data to calculate SSAO, like world normals and depth, what means if you want to add SSAO to your game you'll have to rewrite your existing shaders.

P.S. Nvidia states that tressfx could run on nvidia cards as the effect uses direct compute libraries.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 22:12
For anything you import there will be a level of hardcoding to get it to work, but the point is, shaders themselves aren't hard coded. I can take a shader and it can be reused for any project I can write an importer for. I don't have to write the shader every time.

For example, I wouldn't argue any of Evolved's shaders are hardcode, but I do need to do some leg work to get them functioning.

mr Handy
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Posted: 18th Mar 2013 08:59
Quote: "shaders themselves aren't hard coded"

Normal mapping - no, SSAO - yes. Shaders are different, dude.

Quote: "Stuff like SSAO is a fullscreen shader, so normally you'd render it to a plane and attach it to the camera, which is really the only hardcoded thing about it."

You don't know the subject.

Quote: "I can write an importer"

wat

and I was talking about tressfx, SSAO was a certain example. Your thoughts were lil bit derailed

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Gingerkid Jack
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Posted: 18th Mar 2013 11:41
Quote: "the normal graphics are better IMO, once lara starts to get dirty and whatnot, in the opening sequence though, you might wanna use it - cuz then it actually fits"


Well, she actually saved a bottle of shampoo and conditioner when the ship crashed so every time her hair got dirty she would just clean it in the many pools of water and/or the rain. Jeeeez.

Gingerkid Jack - www.youtube.com/thegingerkidjack
Thraxas
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Posted: 18th Mar 2013 11:55
Having now raided one of the "tombs" in the game I'm even more underwhelmed. If they are all like the first one then it's really going to be disappointing.

I'm finding the game enjoyable enough to play for me to want to finish it, but I really don't feel like I'm playing a Tomb Raider game.

Quik
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Posted: 18th Mar 2013 16:45
Quote: "Having now raided one of the "tombs" in the game I'm even more underwhelmed. If they are all like the first one then it's really going to be disappointing.

I'm finding the game enjoyable enough to play for me to want to finish it, but I really don't feel like I'm playing a Tomb Raider game."


Like I said, it's not a tomb raider game - its a 3rd person shootevertything-up with lara croft game

and yes, the tombs doesnt get any harder or any more complex from what I can tell



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Mar 2013 17:48
Quote: "You don't know the subject."


I'm relying on the information relayed by the SSAO tutorial I linked to. The method they're using is sending a certain number of rays for the shader to acquire data and then use the shader to interpret the data to generate an image, which is attached to a plane, which is positioned in front of the camera, which is similar to how fullscreen shaders work with DB.

Different shaders work differently, yes, I mean, EVOLVED's water shaders require 2 cameras before applying the shader. Some shadow shaders will use a camera as well and create a mask. All things that can't be added to the shader code natively. Another shadow method is to use ray casting (like the shadow shader I'm using in Unity3D).

When I say write an importer, I mean it'll be code that'll import the shader and interpret the required data correctly. For EVOLVED's water shader, I'd be using the 2 cameras. Yes, I am using the term 'importer' loosely, but I'd argue for me to import these shaders I'll need to write the code that allows me to use them in a scene. In the case of SSAO, it'd be the raycasts, for water it'd be the two cameras. But with that import code, I can just have a command, say, "ApplyWaterShader()" and it'd do everything I need to make that shader work. Yes, some of it IS hardcoded, but the point I was saying, with shaders, it's not completely hardcoded. Of course, for something like Tressfx, it may not be that simple, but it's just a shader and people will need to fit its requirements to make it work as desired.

So it is in the middle of hardcoded and not hardcoded. It's not the same as how my enemy AI is hardcoded, which I could turn into a library if I wanted to. Even then, a library will require a certain level of hardcoding.

mr Handy
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Posted: 19th Mar 2013 09:40 Edited at: 19th Mar 2013 09:46
Only one effect I remember that is not hardcoded is pixel lighting. You just load and apply shader to the object to get the result.

Here is my example of regular library usage:


Hardcode means that you can't rewrite library/effect without recompiling the source. Hardcode is not a type, it's a state.

P.S. DBP allows to make all shader effects "softcoded", you "just" need LUA or something to execute DBP commands on the fly from script. Who needs this, srsly?

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Indicium
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Posted: 19th Mar 2013 14:05
Ah because of course, Tomb Raider was written in darkbasic!


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mr Handy
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Posted: 19th Mar 2013 14:24 Edited at: 19th Mar 2013 14:26
If it is true, then Lee's hiding from us support for DX11

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Gingerkid Jack
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Posted: 25th Mar 2013 10:16
After not having access to my PC for over a week I have finally completed the single player to 100% Gathering all the collectibles was fun but I am not sure I could play through the campaign again for a while. I wish I had a memory flasher thingy from Men in Black so I could play it for the first time again!

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Dar13
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Posted: 25th Mar 2013 21:19
Quote: "Hardcode means that you can't rewrite library/effect without recompiling the source. Hardcode is not a type, it's a state."

You can edit a shader and not have to recompile the source. It's not statically linked into the executable, it's a media asset.

mr Handy
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Posted: 26th Mar 2013 08:20
@Dar13
Obviously, you can open any file in notepad. I has been said already that you can externalize any DBP command or function with scripting language. But if it's not - it's hardcoded. And don't call shader a media, unless you call dba files as media too.

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Indicium
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Posted: 26th Mar 2013 15:36
Dar, do what I did and give up.

Btw - do you agree with my original point or do you think I'm mistaken?


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Dar13
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Posted: 27th Mar 2013 02:25
Quote: "Dar, do what I did and give up."

Gonna give it one more shot. What can I say, I'm stubborn.

Quote: "And don't call shader a media, unless you call dba files as media too."

Models = media.
Textures = media.
Map files and misc files = media.
Shaders = media.
DBA files = source code that is turned into the executable. Not media.

mr Handy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2013 14:37 Edited at: 27th Mar 2013 14:45
@Dar13
*Facehoof* Dude, shader is a source code that compiles and works as a low-level modificator for objects before rendering.

About hair... Here you can see a nice dynamic fur effect on the monkey (PS3).

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Dar13
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Posted: 27th Mar 2013 17:57
Quote: "*Facehoof* Dude, shader is a source code that compiles and works as a low-level modificator for objects before rendering."

Duude, I know that already. They're considered no more hardcoded than the map files that a game might use. Shaders don't have to be precompiled, as the DirectX runtime compiles them when they are loaded into memory.

Nickydude
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Posted: 27th Mar 2013 21:21
Remember guys, this thread is about the Tomb Raider 2013 Reboot, not about whether a shader is media or not.

I reject your reality and substitute my own...
mr Handy
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Posted: 28th Mar 2013 06:39 Edited at: 28th Mar 2013 07:02
@Nickydude
That's because of tressFX.

@Dar13
Quote: "They're considered no more hardcoded than the map files that a game might use"

I hurt my face with a *facepalm* Please, stahp, dude.

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Indicium
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Posted: 28th Mar 2013 15:28
Map files are 'compiled' by their respective editors.


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