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Geek Culture / Good bye BASIC...

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Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 29th Mar 2013 23:14
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Well... It's been many a year(10, lol...) since I began programming in some form of BASIC or other. And, like 7 or 8 of those in DB. Yet, the decision was made a few days ago by me and my team that we wanted an XBLA port of the game, so I have begun learning C#. I guess like all programmers who aren't just hobbyists, I outgrew DB. It was a great product, it served me well, but it's time to move on.

Anyway, long story short, I guess I'll be around here less. Good bye for now everyone. I'll stop by every now and again to give help. Also, when my project reaches beta, I'll be sure to drop by.

Peace.
-NSM

Formerly: Amo Deus Man
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 29th Mar 2013 23:34
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Well, some folks move on. I personally enjoy using C#. If you're going to learn it (and with XNA), I would recommend checking out 3D Buzz's tutorial series, they're well detailed and their explanations are very clear.

Of course, nobody ever leaves the forum. I'm using Unity 3D and somehow I'm the Forum President. (having said that, I am also using Dark GDK.NET)

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Mobiius
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 17:31
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Microsoft are canning XNA, so get your games up quickly!

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
See what I live for here: [url]http:\\www.TeamDefiant.co.uk[/url]
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Dar13
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Posted: 1st Apr 2013 04:23
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Just switch to MonoGame. It's the XNA API but backed by an open-source engine. I messed around with it some before I ended up using Unity instead.

Follow WTLD's progress on Twitter
Git repository for WasTeLanD
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Van B
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2013 10:08
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You'll never say goodbye to BASIC .

Seriously, you'll need an editor, or prototype, or tool of some sort, and the fastest solution will be to make one in DBPro - I find this all the time... once you have a quick workflow in a language, it's counter-productive to discard it.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2013 10:13
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Say Hello to man of great ambition

*** Merry Chuckmas! ***
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TheComet
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2013 18:34
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Yeah, I said I'd make the transition to C++, which is true, but DarkBASIC is still extremely useful for small prototypes.

TheComet


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 4th Apr 2013 09:10
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Quote: "Yeah, I said I'd make the transition to C++, which is true, but DarkBASIC is still extremely useful for small prototypes."
This.

Text only signature /troll
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mnemonic
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Posted: 9th Apr 2013 14:15
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I think DBpro can be used for making complete games, not just prototypes. I started using DBpro in 2006, and as long as Lee keeps updating it, it can just get better. After all the compiler is basically built up with dll's written in c++.

But I do have one thought that c++ and c# is more powerful and flexible. Harder to learn, and mor code to write before you can focus on your game logic. With DBpro we can focus on that instantly.

These languages mentoined are also more widely used. (Never heard of a proffesional company using DBpro)

I believe in DBpro, and it seems that I'm not alone

www.memblockgames.com
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Van B
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Posted: 9th Apr 2013 15:03
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I think that we adjust our expectations through experience. I mean, if you spend 3 years making a game in DBPro, that's 3 years making a game for 1 platform, and more and more people would rather make games for tablets, consoles, and phones. So peoples next project tends to be a much shorter development cycle, simpler game project, and usually more efficiency. Basically a less-lofty game idea that might be targetted at mobile platforms rather than just the PC. Plus there's simply more money in mobile development.

I think that DBPro is falling by the wayside, AppGameKit is stepping up and fulfilling our needs. Just consider how many AppGameKit projects have made it onto the app store, android store etc etc compared to DBPro projects. My current/last project is on the app store, made with XCode and C++ for iOS, and in DBPro for the PC. The PC version has some catching up to do, hopefully it'll be done in a couple of weeks - but in hindsight I should really just have used AppGameKit, then my game would be on iOS, Android, Mac, PC.

I still like DBPro of course, and I'll keep using it, for editors for AppGameKit projects, and heavier 3D stuff - but my point is that every new project I can think off tends to be a mobile app. Mine and Cliff's side project has it's own sprite editor written in DBPro - where it's actually quicker to add in a feature than to continue without it ... for example when pasting part of a sprite, I started spending too long adjusting things when I need to paste behind what is already there... so I added an option to hold shift in the sprite editor, then it'll only paste onto transparent pixels. Coding time, about 3 minutes - time saved... lots. Or how much time do we spend going between the colour dropper and the pen tool - with sprite editing that's a lot of time - so I added a hot key to instantly set the pen colour without having to change tools. Sometimes, it's just better to have your own tools, add to them as you need to, and gleam the maximum benefit from them. We are, after all, developers - why should we waste time learning how to use other developers tools that probably won't cover all the bases anyway. Knowing the problem is better than being given the solution. I'm not saying people should try and make their own 3DSMax or Photoshop or FruityLoops - but things like sprite editors, animation programs etc etc tend to always be worth it.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 14th Apr 2013 02:16
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^^^
Yes. Yes. Yes. You are right Van. I've given myself a crash course in C# and realize that it would be a waste of valuable time to make simple map and data editors in C#. Lol. I'm beginning my first tests of the language soon, though. I'll see how well I pick it up. It doesn't seem like it will be *too* hard to learn, as many of the principles and commands are the same, or at least very similar.

Formerly: Amo Deus Man
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greenlig
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Posted: 14th Apr 2013 06:31
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I still use DBPro/AGK to prototype games for work. It's part of my toolset, and I wouldn't be without it!

ZacDuff.com
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mnemonic
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Posted: 14th Apr 2013 12:18
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I cannot avoid to see that many people say they write prototypes for games with DBpro/Dark GDK? What is your defenition of a prototype game? I have seen screenshots of nicely rendered scenes.

You can make a fully playable game in DBpro. If we talk about it's reliability and such, I can agree that other languages maybe does better in that manner. The reason for this is that maybe these languages have more support, DBpro is only supported by TGC.
But it's capability in doing good games is great as long a TGC supports it and makes updates.

www.memblockgames.com
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Apr 2013 16:39
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Well, when I say prototype, I mean if I want to try out a piece of code, say, if I had an idea for a skill system for my project, I mean load up DBP, code the system and use the text commands just to test out the functionality of it. It's quick and I can iron some stuff out before implementing it into Unity3D.

Or if I wanted to try out a bit of 3D, I could quickly set up a scene, even with just cubes and try that.

DBPro used to by the main tools I used, but I have since moved on, because I think Unity3D suits me better for my project. I even made a full demo of the project in DBPro, but there are things I benefit from in using Unity. I know what DBPro can be used for and it's an excellent tool. But I prefer to use OOP and find Unity's editor invaluable. (DBPro users could of course compensate with tools like MapScape or even FPSC's editor)

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mnemonic
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Posted: 14th Apr 2013 17:40
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The thing I like, or acctually love about DBpro is it's ease of use and that it is coding all the way, ofcource unity offers me to make a terrain, add a first-person controller, collisions and restriction of slope height is already there without writing one line of code, that's pretty obvious you want in your game, unless you'r making a sureal game where you fall thru the ground and so on,,,. In DBpro you have to code everything yourself from the ground up (Except the math and init of DX ofcourse)

I'm not saying that unity's scripting capabilities is not any good. I believe it's brilliant! I have not used unity not much at all. But I have strong thoughts about doing so,, after all,, I've got it installed on my machine

www.memblockgames.com
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Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 15th Apr 2013 01:05 Edited at: 15th Apr 2013 01:08
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Well, mnemonic, I chose C# for a variety of reasons:

1. It's very similar to both DBP and C++. I want to eventually transition fully to C++ for an entirely different set of reasons than these. Since C# seems to lie between the two, it seemed a great choice.

2. C# is under my control, not the other way around. By that, I mean, when you encounter a bug in DBP, half the time the problem isn't even your code, it's the compiler. With C#, if there is an issue, I can be pretty sure it can be resolved, because there are a whole lot less bugs in C#(they are still there though).

3. The speed gains are vastly superior to DBP. FPS tests can easily conclude such. Plus, access to multi-threading can drastically improve program function and overall performance.

4. I want to target the XBLA market as well as the PC market. To do so, I require access to XNA(hence learning C#), which DBP I am sure cannot do(at least not easily, or fully).

In the end, as my main, DBP served me well, but it's time for it to step to the side so that C# can become my main(eventually C++ will do the same to C#).

This decision comes from needing access to lower levels of coding. After looking at DarkGDK, and looking at C#, I realized... If I'm going to be learning a C-like, why not learn full on C#? For me, coding has never been a "hobby" as I have had ambitious and professional aims the entire time I've been coding.

Also, I have to throw this out there: In my first post I stated I've used DB for about 7-8 years, but's apparently been like 5-1/2 to 6 years, lol. Noticed my joined date just now! Anyway... Not that it matters, I'm just a perfectionist.

[EDIT] Fixed small error. See? I told you I'm a perfectionist.

Formerly: Amo Deus Man
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Jimpo
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 04:26
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Quote: "After looking at DarkGDK, and looking at C#, I realized... If I'm going to be learning a C-like, why not learn full on C#? For me, coding has never been a "hobby" as I have had ambitious and professional aims the entire time I've been coding."

Wanted to point out that DarkGDK isn't a 'C-like' language. It's a library for C++. It's closer to DBPro and C++ than C# is, because it is DBPro and C++. You might want to take a second look at DarkGDK if your eventual goal is C++ development.

Not to discourage you from C#! It's very handy for Windows development and is about as easy to learn as Java.

http://degorpg.blogspot.com/
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CodeMonkey
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 16:48
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C# is a great language, I highly recommend it. As far as I know you cannot create XBLA games using C# and XNA though, it's only for Windows, Windows Phone, and XBLIG. I'm probably going to switch over to using Monogame in the future, in the place of XNA.
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Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 06:45
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Ooh. Ouch. I just read a couple of articles... The XBOX development process is hell in a bag... AND, the XDK costs $10,000 non refundable. AND, they can pull the plug at ANY time! Holy crap... Yeah... *meekly*Next year on Steam... Yaaaaaay!*/meekly* Yeah. Might just push for Steam. I'm calling my second in command as we speak. Sorry for the choppy statements. I'm just trying to swallow the disbelief!
XBLIG isn't any better. On it, you make very little. One developer wouldn't say how much he made on XBLIG, but said that he made more on any one of the other platforms in the first two days after release than he did in a year and a half on XBLIG! No. Thank. You.

Anyway, all in the life of a game designer, right?

Formerly: Amo Deus Man
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_Pauli_
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 12:06 Edited at: 17th Apr 2013 12:07
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I wouldn't care about how and where to distribute too much, as long as the project isn't at least in a beta state...

Anyways, never say goodbye to Basic!

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MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 13:17
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Just coming in here to say I too am walking the path of C# and eventually C++ somewhere down the line, but keep in mind, you can use C++ inside C#, as well as other languages to boot

But if your aim is solely game development, then you should skip C# altogether unless you also plan to create side apps for which C# is a better choice for...

Hello Sepp

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mr Handy
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 13:22 Edited at: 17th Apr 2013 13:31
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A summary post to all language threads...

About QBasic game...
Quote: "He reasons that if he'd targeted, say, C++ with OpenGL or DirectX, he would have ended up making a heap of fundamental mistakes, and may never have finished up development on the game."

Quote: "I wanted to make a game, not learn new skills," he reiterates. "This was the best way for me to do that based on my history with computers."


I think this quotes from link above must be posted at every "language" thread like this or "question of the day" nearby.

In my huble opinion, it's only the little girls who can switch between languages trying to find legendary "press x to make game".

Is that a bug? That doesn't work properly? That can't be done like this?

Come on, just say "That is I, not the language itself, who can't do it just becasue I am lack of skills and will".

Only a real (bearded) man (with balls) can do (finish!) a (cool) game on any (ANY) language with grpahics (or not). Dixi.

«Just because you’re unique, doesn’t mean you’re useful»
«If you contributed to the reason for locking, you may now find yourself on moderation, or in extreme cases in the grave»
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Van B
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 13:31
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I'm a bit concerned about his language choice... I mean fair play to making your game in QBasic - but then at the end it says that Linux and MacOS versions are to follow. I might have missed something, but if different platforms are the end goal, then surely QBasic is one of the worst options!

Personally, I think that anyone who can develop a game as complex as that in QBasic, can easily do the same in C++ - some might even argue that C++ or a derivative would be a lot cleaner and more portable than doing all that in QB.

Does look like an interesting game though, I always had a soft spot for isometric views.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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greenlig
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 17:22
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Quote: "In my huble opinion, it's only the little girls who can switch between languages trying to find legendary "press x to make game". "


Geeze, go easy there tiger! No need to be elitist, sexist, or exclusionary!!

You make the valid point, that it is effort and learning that make good games.

ZacDuff.com
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Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 17:40
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Quote: "I wouldn't care about how and where to distribute too much, as long as the project isn't at least in a beta state..."

That's just it. How and where to distribute is part of what drove my decision to choose C#. C#'s access to the XNA framework, and C's overall ease of portation to other platforms make it a prime choice in my eyes.

Quote: "In my huble opinion, it's only the little girls who can switch between languages trying to find legendary "press x to make game"."

That is not my reason for switching languages. I'm actually using a slightly MORE complicated language where none of the maths are provided... I have to either download libraries, or calculate the maths myself(The route I'll be taking as I'd prefer the maths be under my control).

Quote: "Come on, just say "That is I, not the language itself, who can't do it just becasue I am lack of skills and will"."

Hey, I've been programming 10 years. Skill has nothing to do with this switch.

Quote: "Only a real (bearded) man (with balls) can do (finish!) a (cool) game on any (ANY) language with grpahics (or not)."

Not if cross platform functionality is desired. I don't care if you're a programmer, the buddha, or Chuck Norris, certain languages don't have much cross platform functionality. Regardless of skill, there are some languages that will not work with, oh... Say... Mac? Lol. With C# I can target many, many platforms(Some require platform specific C# recompilers, but still).

As Van said:
Quote: "I'm a bit concerned about his language choice... I mean fair play to making your game in QBasic - but then at the end it says that Linux and MacOS versions are to follow. I might have missed something, but if different platforms are the end goal, then surely QBasic is one of the worst options!"

Me too. From the article and gameplay footage, it is obvious he's not completely green(less so than I), so it kind of confuzzles me why he would choose QBasic with such a goal in mind! I guess he plans to pay someone to convert from QB to platform specific languages? Seems like a waste of money when he very well SHOULD have "learned new skills" as he puts it.

Formerly: Amo Deus Man
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_Pauli_
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 18:15 Edited at: 17th Apr 2013 18:16
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Quote: "How and where to distribute is part of what drove my decision to choose C#. C#'s access to the XNA framework, and C's overall ease of portation to other platforms make it a prime choice in my eyes."


But XNA is Windows/XBox only! (Well, there is this thing called Monogame for cross-plattform XNA, but if I remember correctly it's 2D only at its current state - correct me if I'm wrong...)
My weapon of choice for long lasting cross-platform development is Java. I guess that it's overall pretty much comparable to C#.

Quote: "I mean fair play to making your game in QBasic - but then at the end it says that Linux and MacOS versions are to follow. I might have missed something, but if different platforms are the end goal, then surely QBasic is one of the worst options!"


Not necessarily if he bundles his DOS executable with DosBox, which supports plenty of platforms! The same has been done a lot with classic games on Steam for example.

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NightX
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Posted: 18th Apr 2013 04:19
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From my own experience - I use to love darkbasic, used it every day, but i can tell you - the ONLY thing which turned me off basic was types. They wern't powerful enough aha.. So i moved to c++ & OpenGL. Once you wrap your head around the concepts, its not hard at all. Its quite simple, beautiful, and deffinatly powerful! I'd suggest C++ and OpenGL to anyone!

Yet i still hang around on TGC forums, just because the community is great!

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Apr 2013 20:59
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Can anyone even get DBP games to work in Windows 8? It's been a while since I tried...


Senior Developer - CBS Interactive Music Group
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bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2013 03:58
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NightX, might I recommend purebasic? I think the type system is better than c, haven't used much c++ but it's probably comparable if not more powerful there as well.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2013 14:58
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Purebasic is great, I use it at work a lot for resident progams, it is a damn powerful incarnation of basic.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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