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Geek Culture / ASP forums?

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old_School
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Posted: 8th Apr 2013 20:11
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Anyone know of any good ASP forums for tuts and devs?
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Indicium
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Posted: 8th Apr 2013 20:20
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I don't know any, but I'm curious - why you have you chosen ASP over PHP?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Apr 2013 23:06 Edited at: 8th Apr 2013 23:06
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I would hazard a guess that it could be because of ASP.NET and Old_School makes .NET applications. Though I could be wrong.

As for ASP forums, I don't know. There was a good general programming forum, which I believe also caters for ASP (there's ASP.NET and there's also sections specific to web development too), it's called Dream In Code. I'm not a regular there, but do browse it from time-to-time and it seems like a good quality forum.

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It's quite a big forum with lots of members trying to cover just about everything...except Dark Basic maybe.

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old_School
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Posted: 9th Apr 2013 02:37 Edited at: 9th Apr 2013 02:40
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PHP is considered leagcy software by most. A lot of movement toward ASP or at least thats all I see/hear about when i talk to other devs. Plus I have to start learning Dynamics AX and I want to convert the system at work to more main stream ASP(c# or Vb).

Edit:
Oh yeah I've been here. Its not bad but looking for a video tut site etc and I dont think anyone covers Dark Basic except this site. Not even sure its capable of web apps.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Apr 2013 04:01
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Not sure about tuts, but maybe somebody on the web development part of the forum could help point you in the right direction.

I always like 3DBuzz's tutorials, I just had a look around and see they've got an ASP.NET series. There's a link here if it'll help. However, you will need to be subscriber.

With the Dark Basic comment, I was just being a lil facetious. I know Dark Basic doesn't have much of a community outside of these forums.

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Indicium
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Posted: 9th Apr 2013 13:41
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I've not found everyone who finds PHP to be legacy, the majority of websites use it. You won't find much on ASP because of the requirements to use it - I for example couldn't use it because I don't have a professional version of windows, or a windows server and I don't have MS-SQL and this applies to a lot of people who would otherwise write tutorials for ASP so they instead use PHP because it runs anywhere.

PHP runs on Linux, that's a massive advantage over ASP. (although I hear there's a way to get ASP on Linux)


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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old_School
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Posted: 9th Apr 2013 16:27
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Linux is clearly better than Windows no argument there but this is a old business argument. Linux is only slightly better than Windows but it is better. However, it will cost you around 100k or more for a good Linux dev or network admin to maintain your network vs. 40 to 70k for a Windows Dev & Network Admin. This is why Windows is still the biggest consumer and Business side. Its cheaper to hire Microsoft developers. This argument has been around longer than most of you have been born and thats no joke. Its seriously a 20+ year old argument. Last I knew as well PHP was being phased out by HTML 5, Java, ASP and MVC. You still see PHP but not nearly as much as you think. The business world is ruled by Windows Model and its because the argument above. Anyway, thansk for the ASP links, please post them as you find them.
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Van B
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Posted: 9th Apr 2013 17:02
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I'd say Microsoft Office has something to do with it as well. It's the best office software solution, because it's so widespread and supported. It's really counter-productive to even try and use something else... Microsoft has the business sector sewn up, that's for sure. It actually annoys me when people send non-Office documents, because I have to convert them for people every time.

That's the way it should be though. We need standard practices in IT - it should be straightforward to administrate a network, install a PC, etc etc - because we can't even be sure that people will speak English as their primary language, let alone adhere to complex protocols. Knowing your way around MS Office should be a standard, it should be a requirement in any technical or engineering job.

If only for the sake of having a real standard software set for businesses. Directors need to either pay much more for their IT support, or they need to pay much more for software - they have to spend money somewhere to get real benefits. Office might be a bit of a kick in the teeth - considering it probably costs more than most of the PC's it's installed onto - but any idiot can install and use it, and 'any-idiot' software is what we need in business these days I'm afraid.

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Indicium
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Posted: 9th Apr 2013 19:45 Edited at: 9th Apr 2013 19:52
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I agree with most of what you said about the microsoft side of things there old_school, but I think it's a bit of an understatement to say that Linux is only slightly better than Windows for server software.

There's obviously a reason why Windows Servers cost a lot more to rent than Linux servers.

PHP serves only to aid HTML5, just like ASP, so HTML5 is not a reason why PHP would fade out.

Quote: "PHP is used by 79.0% of all the websites whose server-side programming language we know."

Source: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all

Also here's a graph showing trends, I'm not sure how accurate the information is but it seems your views were a little incorrect.
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language

Van B, what's your take on the usage of Google Docs as an alternative to Office?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Apr 2013 00:48
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Quote: "PHP is considered leagcy software by most."


Wha-wha-wha?? *double take* First of all you have to distinguish between ASP and ASP.NET, as they are very different beasts. Vanilla ASP died in about 2001, and is VB script. ASP.NET is newer (about 10-12 years old now) and gives the programmer a choice between using VB or C#, and is compiled; I wouldn't wager that it's catching on. To say PHP is legacy is a fantastical fictional statement by all accounts. It's like saying C++ is legacy. PHP is to web programming as C++ is to game development. Other languages gain small popularity but PHP won't be overtaken for a long time yet. PHP has evolved quite nicely and is a rather nice and functional OO-language for web dev.

Anyways, no, I don't know of any ASP forums as I thought vanilla ASP died over a decade ago.


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Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 10th Apr 2013 07:27
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so, is this a decoy thread for this?

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old_School
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Posted: 10th Apr 2013 07:35 Edited at: 10th Apr 2013 07:42
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Sorry I ment .Net version and no that is a seperate post/thread. Anyway back to discussion. Every network admin Ive talked switched from PHP to ASP. Its faster more reliable, more tools more options etc. This is according to network admins and developers. From what I've seen with ASP .Net it seems to be true. Downside is you have to use IIS. Not a big deal but sometimes IIS is a pain in the butt. I recently also went on a job hunt/found a new job. Anyway, yeah every company I talked to was updating and Xfering to ASP .Net from a old PHP system. I'm sure PHP has a large following still but what I've seen its a sinking ship and its been sinking. Windows really has a tight hold on the business side of things.

Found this article awhile ago, seemed interesting: http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/editorials/why-many-developers-hate-asp-net-and-why-they-are-wrong/
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Apr 2013 12:50
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I'm sure ASP.NET is great. I don't think PHP is a sinking ship, perhaps more people are giving ASP.NET a shot. But PHP is still huge, mainly because it still does the job people use it for. I don't think ASP.NET will replace it, but I think ASP.NET could have potential, but it'll be kind of like Mac vs PC and XBox 360 vs Playstation 3 debates.

I don't think there is anything wrong with going the ASP.NET route, I mean I'm sure it has a lot of uses. As you're a .NET programmer, it makes sense for you to go for ASP.NET.

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Van B
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Posted: 10th Apr 2013 14:04
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Quote: "Van B, what's your take on the usage of Google Docs as an alternative to Office?"


Google docs is fine if it covers the business needs, but businesses tend to need more efficiency, which means that repetitive tasks get optimized, user data is checked for errors, user input is controlled - and Google docs doesn't provide that level of control. MS Office is really a step beyond just document control, things like spreadsheets usually need an extra layer of abstraction otherwise users just cause havok. Conditional formatting, imbedded VBA macros, custom functions etc etc - Excel just 'excels' at this sort of thing. I remember when Excel first got VBA, and thinking that it's exactly how spreadsheets should be done - and I've scored more 'points' by abstracting and automating Excel spreadsheets than anything else... consider that it's usually management who have the unwieldy documents, and saving them time goes a long way. If I can save someone an hour a week by spending 4 hours optimizing a spreadsheet, then that's a no-brainer. Saving high-cost employee's time and reducing human error is like gold dust to any IT guy who hopes for a salary increase.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Apr 2013 16:03
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Interestingly one of the jobs I applied for not so long ago had "Knowledge of Google Docs" as a requirement, so I am sure some folks are using it professionally. At where I'm working currently we use Open Office. As long as it fits the purpose, it works. Most of the content we need is done online as we have an online database and for that all we need is Internet Explorer. Said system works because it's easily accessed anywhere.

Open Office is useful for opening any policy manuals or other documents (like contact lists) and you don't need any of the fanciness of MS Office for that. Heck, we don't even use Outlook as everybody has an Office 365 account, which means all our emailing is done via Internet Explorer too. However, supervisors and managers get MS Office, particularly as they tend to make the most out of Excel, which is extra handy for dealing with stats and monitoring targets.

However, I do prefer MS Office to Open Office myself, hence I have it installed at home. Also prefer it to Google Docs as well. However, OO and Google Docs served me well as a student and are decent and useful tools.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 10th Apr 2013 19:09
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My boss told me you won't get far as a programmer doing PHP as most companies will use JSP or ASP.

Can you find a Fortune 500 company that has a php website?

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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old_School
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Posted: 10th Apr 2013 19:39
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Quote: "My boss told me you won't get far as a programmer doing PHP as most companies will use JSP or ASP.

Can you find a Fortune 500 company that has a php website?"


Lol awesome
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Apr 2013 00:20 Edited at: 11th Apr 2013 00:22
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I think it does depend. A lot of sites I visit tend to use PHP. A lot of people do use it.

Doing a job search I've found there are many vacancies for PHP and ASP.NET programmers. (You're looking at starting £20-£25k per annum and exceeding that to £40-50k, I saw a senior ASP.NET for £70k as well, but it is central London). Interestingly, one of the ASP.NET/C# job advertisements is in my town.

Both are viable and both can get you well paid jobs. Each of course come with their strengths and weaknesses. It's why I compared it to Mac vs PC debates or console wars. At the end of the day it'll come down to what you're looking for.

If you want to go for ASP.NET, old_school, I think it's a great option for you. Based on what I've seen of your history, it looks like it may be the better option for you.

Also, have you had any luck with finding any tutorials? I might actually be interested myself, I already use C# for my projects and I am also looking to set up my own website, it might be more impressive if I were to code it myself rather than rely on a build-it-yourself site.

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RalphY
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Posted: 11th Apr 2013 00:53
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The ASP.NET website should have more than enough tutorials to get you started: http://www.asp.net/. There's a forum there too.

Personally I would recommend going to the MVC section and following the tutorials in there.

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Indicium
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Posted: 11th Apr 2013 01:37
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Quote: "Can you find a Fortune 500 company that has a php website?"


For the purposes of this discussion I don't think that really matters, old_school is unlikely to build a website that would lead his company into that kind of money.

The reason I suggested PHP is simply because it's more accessible to the hobbyist programmer.


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Apr 2013 03:38
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Google & Facebook come to mind..


Mobile Platforms Are Coming
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Indicium
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Posted: 11th Apr 2013 03:51
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Google uses Python IIRC and Facebook isn't in the fortune 500 AFAIK. I'm sure a lot of them do use PHP I just have no way to prove it.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Apr 2013 04:51
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More than likely, since Google do use a cross section of languages.

In terms of PHP, there's growing number of PHP cross compilers floating around, from compiler native to redirections like NET. So the sky isn't falling just yet.


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old_School
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Posted: 11th Apr 2013 18:57
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Quote: "For the purposes of this discussion I don't think that really matters, old_school is unlikely to build a website that would lead his company into that kind of money.

The reason I suggested PHP is simply because it's more accessible to the hobbyist programmer."


Lol well the company I'm going to work for is the world largest RV company called Keystone, sorry no hobbyist developer here.

Quote: "I think it does depend. A lot of sites I visit tend to use PHP. A lot of people do use it.

Doing a job search I've found there are many vacancies for PHP and ASP.NET programmers. (You're looking at starting £20-£25k per annum and exceeding that to £40-50k, I saw a senior ASP.NET for £70k as well, but it is central London). Interestingly, one of the ASP.NET/C# job advertisements is in my town.

Both are viable and both can get you well paid jobs. Each of course come with their strengths and weaknesses. It's why I compared it to Mac vs PC debates or console wars. At the end of the day it'll come down to what you're looking for.

If you want to go for ASP.NET, old_school, I think it's a great option for you. Based on what I've seen of your history, it looks like it may be the better option for you.

Also, have you had any luck with finding any tutorials? I might actually be interested myself, I already use C# for my projects and I am also looking to set up my own website, it might be more impressive if I were to code it myself rather than rely on a build-it-yourself site. "


Yeah I agree, I really like & enjoy working with all parts of the Microsoft business model. It’s just more organized in my opinion and more structured to fit my needs. Which I think as a developer, that’s the key to success is finding the structure that fits your needs.

Anyway, yeah Ive also looked into MVC. I don't know a lot about MVC but I've heard good things about it. Not sure though how it compares or fits into the .Net Framework/Microsft Business Model
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xCept
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Posted: 14th Apr 2013 00:43
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I have worked professionally using both PHP and ASP.NET (w/ C#) for many years. From my experience, middle and large sized companies tend to favor development in .NET because they are longstanding Microsoft shops... Meaning, they already have bulk licenses and corporate discounts for Windows, Office, Visual Studio, IIS, MS Exchange Server, SharePoint and so on. It would take a lot of convincing to get a company like this to switch to PHP and likely wouldn't be financially worth it if everything else is already Microsoft-based. Visual Studio's IDE is incredibly robust and can greatly simplify and speed up the development process (I've also found NuGet in VS 2012 to be especially handy, with over 12,000 packages that can be easily imported).

PHP, however, remains my personal favorite server-side language for a number of reasons. It costs nothing, is open-source with a large and dedicated community, and is much easier to get up and running on a server (especially with prebundled Apache kits like WAMP and XAMPP). PHP hosting services are much more affordable and abundant than those that support ASP.NET. I have saved clients much money over the years by using PHP solutions for many projects. The number of free frameworks and solutions written in PHP is remarkable: WordPress, Joomla, Drupal, vBulletin, osCommerce, and tens of thousands more. I also find PHP easier to interact with databases than ASP.NET / ADO.NET.

ASP.NET arguably has a speed advantage compared to vanilla PHP, since it is a compiled language while PHP is interpreted. However, that is also another benefit I find with PHP--you don't have to go through the tedious build and deploy process that you do with an ASP.NET Web application every time you need to make a change to the server code. They are both very capable platforms. I guess it just comes down to what you are more comfortable with and also what the company you work for prefers.

But, if you are using either of these languages to develop a Web application, the blunt of the work shouldn't even be part of either language. Instead, you'll be using mostly client-side code (e.g., JavaScript) while using server scripts (ASP.NET or PHP) mostly to communicate between the client and server for data storage and retrieval (and other multiplayer interactions). The server scripts will ideally be communicated to asynchronously from the client so the user's experience isn't interrupted. Nothing is worse than a server-side only game in which every click requires the entire page to refresh.
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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 04:23 Edited at: 17th Apr 2013 04:24
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@old_school - Care to name some of those companies that you claim are switching from PHP to ASP.NET? You said that EVERY one of the ones you talk to are, so I'm just curious. EVERY company I've worked for that was using ASP in the past has switched to PHP, so maybe I'm in dreamland?

Quote: "Can you find a Fortune 500 company that has a php website?"


Every company I've ever worked as a Senior Web dev: Nokia in the past and CBS (you know, that big television/entertainment company?) at the moment. Also, EA uses PHP for their online stuff. Almost every web company in San Francisco uses PHP or to a smaller degree Python. I've never, ever seen more than 5 or 6 jobs for ASP.NET as compared to 40 or 50 jobs for PHP. Since I'm continuously searching out new jobs for fun, I've got a good handle on the job numbers.

Maybe it's a geographic thing? I've only searched on the west coast... California, Washington, and then where I am now in Vancouver. Perhaps companies in other countries or regions use ASP.NET?

EDIT:

Just to make sure I'm not full of crap, I did a search at the major recruitment firm CyberCoders for jobs in San Francisco. Currently there's 77 PHP jobs and 12 ASP.NET jobs. I just did a search on linkedin.com for jobs in the Toronto region, and 177 jobs for PHP and 135 for ASP.NET showed up... as an aside, a giant block of the ASP.NET jobs are for working at Microsoft. Go figure. Do those even count?


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