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Geek Culture / Design of artificial intelligence must read

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rolfy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 08:18 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 10:02
Quote: "Wouldn't it be just the reflected light? Since absorbed light you wouldn't see?"

Well yes but absorbed light is part of the process.
Think prism and how it breaks white light into its component colours, then think of surface qualities. Thereafter its about wavelength and receptors (eyes).
Its a combination of transmitted (white), reflected and absorbed wavelengths that defines what colour a surface is to our receptors.
Surfaces will absorb or reflect certain wavelengths, so you get different colours. The object itself has no colour.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
The Zoq2
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 08:42
Well this thread looks like it will be locked soon, to bad.. We hade a good discussion
mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 09:10
If z=(y+1)/2 and y=0.(9) so there is no z, what means 0.(9) exists as largest number before 1.

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rolfy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 09:13 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 09:20
Quote: "Well this thread looks like it will be locked soon, to bad.. We hade a good discussion"

It had run its course and was going round in circles, but yes I enjoyed and learned from some of it.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 10:25
Quote: "How many mathematicians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

0.9999..."


Well played.

mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 10:30
Quote: "How many mathematicians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?"

Three. One will screw in, one will count lightbulbs and last one count themselves.

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easter bunny
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 10:37
You know that it takes 11 electricians to change a light bulb, seriously!
I know an electrician who was once on a job changing one of those Street Light Bulbs in a major intersection in Sydney. They had 7 people on traffic, and 2 cherry pickers, each with 2 people in them (one controlling it and one observer)

mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 10:50 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 10:51
At least on july 2012 it can't be more people than 7.021.836.029 to screw one lightbulb

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easter bunny
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 10:53
Indicium
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:34
Well, mr Handy is a troll, fails to understand proven mathematical concepts and what's more, he's not funny in the slightest.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:43 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 16:44
@Indicium
Nah, your post is too fat to answer to

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Indicium
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:59
What does that even mean?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
The Zoq2
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 17:08
Quote: "What does that even mean?"
mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 17:13 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 18:53
Oh I am sorry for using local terms of ours. It seems that there is no such english terms, just checked on dramatica.

Trolling can be thin or fat, which means skilled or not skilled.
Trolling means attempt to cause flame, flood, butthurt etc., also may be just joking based on people confusion.
Fat post means failed post.

update: google translate is wrong again. Where I wrote FAT should be THICK.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 19:46
Quote: "We deal with infinities all the time. We wouldn't be able to count if infinities weren't second nature to us. As far as I'm concerned the taps in my house give out an infinite stream of water and I have an infinite power supply. Of course neither of these things are really physically infinite but infinity is not a property of an object, it's not a number; it's a concept. Saying that we can't visualise infinity is like saying we can't visualise politics or humour."

I'd say what you're describing there is everlasting, not infinite - after all, things can be infinitely small as well as infinitely large, but water or power can't be considered infinite because we only ever use discrete amounts! ...Or can it? You say infinity is not a property of an object, but then apply it to water and power as if it was.
I'm only talking from my own perspective here of course, I find the idea of infinity just kind of mind-melting, perhaps it isn't as complicated a concept as I am making it!

Quote: "Now about debating the colour of tennis balls on the other hand..........
are they green or yellow?"


I'm gonna hit up the XKCD colour survey and go for 'Lime'

Full survey's here, warning: It contains a bit of language and may be the funniest/most interesting thing you read this week

Quote: ""

No, British.

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 21:51 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 22:37
Quote: "If z=(y+1)/2 and y=0.(9) so there is no z, what means 0.(9) exists as largest number before 1.
"

I don't get it, I know you blatantly troll sometimes but is this one of those times? If you write out the phrase, "there exists a largest element z less than 1 in the real numbers", you can take your axioms and definitions and reduce that sentence to a big fat "FALSE".

But yeah, in math lingo, if you let z=0.99..., and assume z<1, then define y=(z+1)/2, we see y=z/2+1/2>z/2+z/2=z, so that y>z, and we can also show y=z/2+1/2<1/2+1/2=1, so that z<y<1 so that z cannot be the largest number less than one.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 22:12 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 22:20
Quote: "of course, the chances of that being true is about 1/1,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 (just guessing )"

Or if this thread were to be believed: 1 - 0.999...

Quote: "You say infinity is not a property of an object, but then apply it to water and power as if it was."

No, I said the supply of water from my tap is essentially infinite. (Provided the water station keeps running.) No one turns on a tap and expects a finite amount of water to come out, that's why we have plumbers.


ionstream
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 22:56
Quote: "If z=(y+1)/2 and y=0.(9) so there is no z, what means 0.(9) exists as largest number before 1."


There is a Z, you just found it. It's (y+1)/2. It can't "not exist" so long as y exists, and it does, it's 0.9 repeating. All you've proven is that, if 0.999~ is not equal to 1, then it's not the greatest number larger than 1.

The proof I presented earlier can be generalized to any two numbers (where addition and division are defined, which is most sets of numbers).

Let C be a real number. Assume there is another real number Y that is the largest value less than C, that is, there does not exist a number greater than Y and less than C. Since Y and C are both numbers, I can find their average and call it Z, namely, Z = (Y+C)/2. Since Z lies between Y and C, it is greater than Y and less than C. This is a contradiction since we already defined Y as being the greatest number less than C. This means that our assumption that there exists a real number less than C that is greater than all other numbers is false. This proof holds for all real numbers, which is quite a lot of numbers. Your assumption that 0.999~ is the largest number less than 1 is false.

QED. Which is what we were trying to show. Et cetera. Auf Wiedersehen.

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 01:07
Quote: "Auf Wiedersehen."

blessyou


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RedFlames
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 10:59
Quote: "blessyou"


The term you are looking for is "Gesundheit"
Libervurto
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 14:25
Achtung! Ich werde Deutsch zu sprechen.
(Meant to say: "Warning! I am about to speak German.")


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 22:33
Momentmal, ich will ein bier!


Oh yeah, I forgot, I don't drink beer. Ich will ein met! Ist das besser?

Und...es tut mir leid, meine Deustche ist nicht gut.

But at least it's better than my Finnish. Erm...tervehyds!

mr Handy
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 22:43
Quote: "Your assumption that 0.999~ is the largest number less than 1 is false."

You have to choose:
- if there is always z, then 0.(9) < 1
- if 0.(9) = 1 then there is no z

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 00:10
Quote: "if 0.(9) = 1 then there is no z"

wat


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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 00:34
Quote: "if 0.(9) = 1 then there is no z"


What is the average of two of the same number? I'll leave that as an exercise for you. You could even do a formal proof if you want.

mr Handy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 02:40
In decimal system you can't divide 1 by 3 without leftover (or how it calls).

Here is my layout:
0.(3) is not 1/3 precisely therefore 0.(9) is not 0.(3)*3 precisely: it's less than real 3/3 by (1/3-0.(3))*3
When they write 0.(3) they mean that there is infinite 3 and that small part that makes it up to 1/3 is ignored (ceiled or floored) for convenience, cause that don't affect much on anything.

So to get 3/3, aka 1, you need:
A=0.(3)
B=0.(3)
C=0.(3)
A+B+C where A=B<C to get that small bit (leftover) involved not ignored. That small bit exists but can't be displayed by decimal system.

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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 03:05
Quote: "0.(3) is not 1/3 precisely therefore 0.(9) is not 0.(3)*3 precisely: it's less than real 3/3 by (1/3-0.(3))*3"


Just because you keep repeating it, doesn't make it true. Do I need to walk you through long division again? Divide 3 into 1, then 0.3 into 1, then 0.03 into 1, discover the pattern and profit. This is how the decimal system works - each digit is a quotient of the digit and some power of 10. Since this evaluates directly to 3/10 + 3/100 + 3/1000 ad infinitum, it becomes a geometric series. Take some calculus classes if you want to know more about this. Patterns are how we deal with infinite series.

mr Handy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 04:39 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 04:44
You just can't understand it. It is infinite because it always need a cipher between 0 and 1, which is not exist in decimal system, to reach 1/3. And it can't reach. So you state that 1 can be divided by 3 without remainder by infinitely repeating "integer" part?

You may write 0.(3)3 which is <1/3 or 0.(3)4 which is >1/3

Or you have to proove that there is no reminder when you want to divide 1/7. Reminder? Pff, for kids.

P.S. just because you repeating that 1/3=0.(3) without reminder is not true.

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Burger
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 05:28
Well I thought the entire thread was an interesting read, just saying.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 05:34
mr Handy,

Go to Google. Type in '1/3'. See the results. Obviously, there isn't enough space on modern screens to show an infinite number of digits, but you can probably guess that since the result is '0.33333333333', it's trying to tell you that 1/3 = 0.(3)

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
ionstream
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 06:45
Mr. Handy, I have presented you with several mathematical proofs. Proofs are rigorous series of logical steps, they are not just pointing at a statement and saying "look, it's true!" I honestly don't understand why you're having so much trouble with the concept of long division, nor why you seem to think that mathematically proven principals like geometric series and sums of infinite limits and friggin all of calculus are incorrect. If you don't believe me, consult any reputable source on the internet (like the dozens of Wikipedia pages I have linked so far). If you don't believe those, consult a mathematician - someone with a degree.

Quote: " 0.(3)4 which is >1/3"


This is incorrect notation. You can't have a number after an infinite number of 3's. The 4 will never occur.

Quote: "1/3=0.(3)"


For any given digit, there will be a remainder of 3/(the base of the next digit, such as 100 or 10000). This is what is meant by the recurring symbol! Every remainder is necessarily taken care of by the next digit, and since there are an infinite number of "next digits", all of the remainder is fulfilled.

easter bunny
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 08:12
lol one school of thought has been giving proof every step of the way in this debate. The other has been saying "Your wrong! Your Trolling! it's not true! your lying!" etc etc etc.

mr Handy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 09:45 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 10:51
Quote: "lol one school of thought has been giving proof every step of the way in this debate. The other has been saying "Your wrong! Your Trolling! it's not true! your lying!" etc etc etc."

Somebody tossing crap to the ventilator!

~{sorry for double post below}~

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mr Handy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 10:45 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 10:53
Beat this:





0.(3) > 1/3 therefore 0.(3)*3 = 1 (with some roundings for calculation convenience, as I said before)

computer wins!

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 10:59
Quote: "0.(3) > 1/3"
no

http://www.google.com/
mr Handy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 11:04
@DBD79
Here take this:


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 11:06
Now, would you be willing to explain to us why 0.(3) > 1/3?? I'd love to know.

http://www.google.com/
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 14:38
Quote: "0.(3) is not 1/3 precisely"

Give a bloody proof instead of making a statement that isn't true.

Already said. The decimal representation 0.(3) IS the limit of the sequence {0.3,0.33,0.333,0.3333,...}. The limit of that sequence IS 1/3.

Since decimal representations AREN'T the real numbers, they're just representations of real numbers, talking about a decimal after an infinite sum... doesn't really make sense. If you define it for me I can help!

What does a computer's representation of 1/3 have to do with any of this?

It helps if you go into an argument open-minded enough to consider the possibility you're wrong, instead of figuring out how to justify whatever belief you have. On this topic, honestly, I'm not really entertaining the idea I could be wrong, but that's only because I've finished two books on proofs and half a book on real analysis, and because I have internet (also, actual) mathematicians (vihart, singingbanana), as well as a stackoverflow thread with mathematicians writing the answers (http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/11/does-99999-1 with the wonderful quote which applies here, "Symbols don't mean anything in particular until you've defined what you mean by them."), as well as many other articles from professional mathematicians, on my side.

There's also the concession that the idea isn't total crap provided that you define everything very carefully (http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/281492/about-0-999-1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_analysis) which you have not.


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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 19:09
Quote: "0.(3) > 1/3"


Quote: "You may write 0.(3)3 which is <1/3 or 0.(3)4 which is >1/3"


Switching up your stance are we?

Quote: "Beat this:"


Oh buddly boy. At least we're getting somewhere with what you don't understand. Computers store floating point numbers in IEEE754 floats, which are either 32 bits or 64 bits in length. 32 bit floats are laid out like this:



As you can see, there is only 32 bits of precision, which means that not every number can be represented by a float in this manner. This includes (most) infinitely repeating decimals, because there's no guarantee that the fractional part of the float can be expressed as x/2^23 (since we have 23 bits for the fraction).

However, more complicated math calculators do actually understand the notion of repeating decimals. Wolfram Alpha is one of these.

Putting in 1/3:



Putting in 0.3... * 3



Computer wins? Oh also bonus:



Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 21:54
pwnt

http://www.google.com/
mr Handy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 22:18 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 22:25
Quote: "At least we're getting somewhere with what you don't understand."

Oh, mr Smart Pants is so offensive
mr Handy came from dark cave, me don't know what float is. Float is some thing floating on the river? Brain hurts.





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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 22:33
I think this might just be a case where someone needs to accept that they might be wrong and move on.

Quote: "pwnt"


I encourage such constructive postings.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 22:33 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 22:34
mrHandy, you're just not willing to let yourself be seen beaten, are you? Part of the reason the human species is so advanced is because it shares ideas, and humans are (generally) willing to be open minded and accept other humans' ideas. If it weren't for (the majority of) humans being like that, then the human race would still be in the stone age. That is, if everyone was like you, not open minded and not willing to accept other peoples' logical thinking (not to mention, FACTS), the human race would be much like other animal species.

CONSIDER that.

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rolfy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 23:34
Its got to the point where I don't know if I am reading the start the middle or the end of this, it just keeps repeating.
As I trudge across the Tundra that is this thread, I see a way out, it's simple, don't read it anymore.....this is when I realise I have masochistic tendencies and know I will continue to follow this to the very end.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Libervurto
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 23:36
1/3 to 3 significant figures is 0.333, multiplied by 3 is 0.999. I think this is what handy is saying, but this is a rounding error: you should always work to one greater figure when calculating. e.g. 0.3333 * 3 = 0.9999 rounded to 3 sig. fig. = 1.


The Zoq2
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 23:39
I absolutley don't see a reason that a Dark Basic program would prove anyting. Decimal values in computers have accuracy, generaly not noticed in regular use, but to prove that 0.3333333 with an infinite amount of decimals is not possible...
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 05:03
MrHandy I'd love to see you respond to one of my posts -.-


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 05:06
If he did, he'd be showing defeat, because he couldn't possibly argue with one of your posts without sounding like an idiot.

http://www.google.com/
Phaelax
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 06:32
I think I understand what Handy is trying to say about how 1/3 does not equal 0.333~

In the picture ionstream posted, the website even states the repeating decimal is just a decimal "approximation", which I can see causing some confusion.

The main issue here is getting people away from how computers see math, and getting them to see it as just math. There is a difference between 0.33333333 with 10 billion digits repeating and a true infinitely long decimal, as represented by 0.333~
I think maybe that's the difference he isn't understanding.

Not sure if my post will help any or just confuse people more.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
mr Handy
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 12:35
Quote: "In the picture ionstream posted, the website even states the repeating decimal is just a decimal "approximation""

This.

I know only on man that can count to infinity - Chuck Norris. Maybe Chuck Norris has a computer that can calculate it, but we do not have such a computer.

Generic computer says:
1/3 = 0.(3) > 1/3
0.(3) * 3 = [>1] 1

Generic computer is not a someone's website. Is not a wikipedia.
It's a calculating machine. It was created to give a result.
Debate is over, computer wins. Bip bip.

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