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Geek Culture / Vlambeer victim of game "cloning"

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Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 02:12
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I thought I'd post this in support of our native Vlambeer: Tha_Rami.




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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 07:07
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What's vlambeer?

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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Thraxas
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 08:02
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Quote: "What's vlambeer?"




Stuttering in images! Can you help?
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Wolf
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 08:17
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"Vlambeer is a Dutch independent game studio made up of Rami Ismail and Jan Willem Nijman."

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mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 08:39
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Who cloned? What cloned?

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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 09:02
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Quote: "Vlambeer is a Dutch independent game studio made up of Rami Ismail and Jan Willem Nijman."

Doesn't everyone on this forum have their own independent game studio? Or do they actually have a legit business?

And what Handy said, who cloned what now?

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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TheComet
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 09:36
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Quote: "What's vlambeer?"



You mean you've never heard of super crate box?

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_Pauli_
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 09:46
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Quote: "who cloned what now?"


Two of their highly distinctive and original games called Ridiculous Fishing and and most recently Luftrausers got cloned by some other studios before they were even released by Vlambeer! It's a shame for the Indie games buisness, but I guess that's the price to pay when you show game footage before release... very sad.

Article on Gamasutra.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 09:48 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 10:15
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Quote: "super crate box"

I saw it's site. So what's the deal with cloning?

EDIT: oh. I'm posting too slowly.

This game was cloned just because it is very simple casual sprite game. It's one on the hundreds so-called victims.

Do you remember how many diablo clones were made and how few were good?

It may sound a little bit mean but true masterpiece is very hard to copy.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 10:15 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 10:20
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Quote: "Doesn't everyone on this forum have their own independent game studio? Or do they actually have a legit business?"


They have a legit business. If you remember tha_rami (still pops his head in once in a while) he and a friend set up an indie studio, created Super Crate Box together and it was immensely popular, now they're making money off of game creation as a business and seem to be hitting all the big game shows and are well known in the indie game market. They also made Serious Sam: The Random Encounter as the creators of Serious Sam had a couple of indie studios make a couple of spin-offs before they released their latest title. You can get Serious Sam: The Random Encounter off of Steam as well, but Super Crate Box is free.

As for the cloning, did nobody watch the video? Basically people have been copying their games and I don't mean games with similar game play, but genuine clones that just have a few minor differences, like media.


For more info about Vlambeer, here's Rami's "I'm Leaving" thread, which we all know is tosh, because nobody truly leaves and he's proved that by coming back on numerous occassions.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=176928&b=2

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mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 10:18 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 10:23
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Quote: "U.S. District Judge ruled that the game Mino, which is a simple clone of "Tetris", violates the rights of The Tetris Company and creator Alexey Pajitnov's game. This is a very unusual decision, because so far the creators of game clones felt very confident, and prove the violation was almost impossible.

The case began with the fact that in 2009 in the App Store game appeared Mino from the studio Xio Interactive. Mechanics in it was a classic, "tetrisnoy" - the same glass, the same blocks and vanishing line. The difference was only in the management of (very unusual and easy-to-iPhone) and the multiplayer mode, where players are planted on each other "junk" line.

Noticing the clone, the company Pajitnov sent to Apple a notice of violation of rights, and Mino removed from the store. But Xio sent a counter-notice, and Apple reported Pajitnov that, unless the court, Mino returned to the store. And the court. There clone developers say that, well, yes, they were not able to buy a license and just copied the mechanics of the game. By law, the rules of the game and its mechanics can not be the subject of copyright - only the source code, music or appearance.

But Alex Tutti, Judge District of New Jersey, had a different opinion on that. He said that copied the look of the game, and it's ay-ay-ay. And Xio tried in vain to explain that the appearance is inextricably linked with the game mechanics, - the court did not agree with them. He explained that it is possible to clone the principle of building blocks and vanishing lines, but when the game board and dice roll over and look the same - there is a violation of copyright.

This decision could have serious consequences in the gaming industry. Now, the creators of the clones may have to take care also of the interface to games and their appearance does not match the original."


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BMacZero
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 10:51
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Cloning has been a pretty hot topic this year, it seems. There have definitely been some really unfortunate cases that really hurt people's business. While a lot of people are saying there needs to be some mechanism to take action against clones, I think it's going to be really hard to do that without going too far in the other direction. For example, I don't think Muffin Knights is really doing anything wrong. Sure, it has the idea of running and jumping on a 2D map and collecting little doodads while enemies spawn - but the game also has a very different visual style and feel, and I saw a number of new, unique mechanics. As many people like to point out, reusing and adapting ideas is kind of a big part of developing games.

This was a great related moment at the Game Developer's Choice Awards this year :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8ggCb-eH4k#t=24m53s

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 14:10
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Thanks for those videos. It's time I tried a few of those featured games.

I hope Vlambeer succeed in their claims - cloning on that scale has to be rather demoralising.
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TheComet
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 14:28
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Quote: "cloning on that scale has to be rather demoralising."


It certainly means one thing: Vlambeer is doing something right.

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Quik
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 15:41
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Quote: "Or do they actually have a legit business?"



are you saying being an independent studio does not equal legit buisness?
srsly?



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:12
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Quote: "are you saying being an independent studio does not equal legit buisness?
srsly?"


I totally agree. I represent such highly anticipated titles as Dark Survival 2. Surely that's legit, isn't it?
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Wolf
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:12 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 16:13
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Quote: "are you saying being an independent studio does not equal legit buisness?"


I'm pretty sure Phaelax was hinting on the enormous amount of pseudo studios and kids with webs.com sites playing gamedeveloper.

And yes, Vlambeer seems to be a "legit" indie game studio

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:21
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Quote: "I'm pretty sure Phaelax was hinting on the enormous amount of pseudo studios and kids with webs.com sites playing gamedeveloper."


I can't tell the difference. You need to respect the game development community. You have just lost the privilege to distribute my games.
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:33
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Quote: "It certainly means one thing: Vlambeer is doing something right."


It certainly does.
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Indicium
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:37
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Quote: "You have just lost the privilege to distribute my games."


I'm sure he's wounded, mate.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:46 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 16:47
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Quote: "You need to respect the game development community."

I don't think that respect comes for nothing. Respect to developer just for his attempts? I'd prefer respect for awesome games.

edit: typos

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 16:54
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Quote: "I don't think that respect comes from nothing."


True that.

Quote: "Respect to developer just for his attempts?"


You have to respect the principal of the thing. Your fellow man. Do you know what the average game developer goes through? X hours of sitting in front of the computer, fingers on the keys, staring at the screen. Every game developer has earned your respect. That includes me and everyone else on this forum.

Quote: "I'd prefer respect for awesome games."


Every game is awesome. You're just going into your hogwash marketing now. With names like "Next-Gen Studios" and "Multitainment 360", every startup game developer makes only the finest quality games. Dark Survival 2 is a prime example of such a game. Respect the games.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 17:01 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 17:06
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Quote: "Every game developer has earned your respect."

Fluffy Rabbit, you need to see the world in shades of gray, but you see it as black/white only. "Respect everyone or you a bad person". I don't respect anyone just becasue he (or she) doing something that I even don't know. And this something porbably won't be even finished. You may expect such respect for attempts only from close people like parents, friends, etc...

Respect is something that you must deserve. I don't deserve respect as a developer here.

And all games are awesome? All of them? You have played a couple of games and they are all yours I guess?

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 17:26
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Quote: "Fluffy Rabbit, you need to see the world in shades of gray, but you see it as black/white only."


The world is grey, but human emotion is black and white.

Quote: ""Respect everyone or you a bad person". I don't respect anyone just becasue he (or she) doing something that I even don't know. And this something porbably won't be even finished."


There you go bashing game developers. What are they doing that you don't know? They are making highly anticipated, hardcore, l33t AAA games. When a title comes along like Dark Survival 2, you can't help but pay attention. Won't be finished, you say? It shows what you know about game development. Duke Nukem Forever was in development for years, and then it finally hit the market. Boom!

Quote: "You may expect such respect for attempts only from close people like parents, friends, etc..."


That's just unfair. You say "attempts", huh? How many of these games would you call attempts? The whole world looks upon those gems in awe.

Quote: "Respect is something that you must deserve. I don't deserve respect as a developer here."


Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Respect is not something that must be deserved, it is something that is earned through struggle. Only someone who is severely mentally deficient could brush off the triumph of human spirit.

Quote: "And all games are awesome? All of them?"


Yes, all of them! Because to be called a game, a software program must incorporate objectives, challenge, graphics, and gameplay. These things are the cornerstones of our society.

Quote: "You have played a couple of games and they are all yours I guess?"


Ever played SoulHunter? I didn't make that. That game is AWESOME! The same goes for any other game. My games are not exceptions. MY games are soaked in awesomeness, baked in an awesome oven, and served to awesome fat guys who cut into them with awesomely big forks and knives.
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greenlig
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 17:36
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Fluffy Rabit, you gotta be trollin'

Ridiculous Fishing: A Tale of Redemption is a fantastic game. Just polished to a shine, and actually has a personality to it that is rare in the casual game market. The Byrdr emails had me scratching my head though. Really like what Vlambeer do, and it's a big prop to this community that tha_rami ran round here. I mean, who didn't get into DBC as a whippernsapper hoping to make games and conquer the world?!?

TGC is a good place.

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 17:44
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Damn it, greenlig!

DarkBASIC is the tool of developers. Being a developer myself, I would know. I don't get any nostalgia out of this. It's all so fresh to me, I can smell the money blowing through the air. Just a sec, the phone is ringing.

It was EA. They offered me a job in California. Do you think I should take it?
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 18:41
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Just had a go at Yeti Hunter. Here are a couple of videos for it:

Yeti Hunter Review

Yeti Hunter Walkthrough

The game itself:

http://yetihunter.vlambeer.com/

I needed a good laugh.
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TheComet
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 18:44
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Quote: "It was EA. They offered me a job in California. Do you think I should take it? "


They aren't located in California

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mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 18:50
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Quote: "Fluffy Rabit, you gotta be trollin' "

This.

I don't want offence anyone here, or hurt anyone's feelings, seriously. I appreciate all of their work.
Respect is a personal feeling. Can I has this personal feeling please?

I can't respect unknown people for unknown reasons, there is nothing wrong about it.

But when you demand respect of somebody in such way, it's a shame.

Quote: "That's just unfair."

Those games would not be interesting outside of indie community like this.

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ionstream
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 18:51
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Los Angeles is in California.

I get Phaelax's post about bedroom coders pretending they are an "indie studio," but tha_rami is not one of those people and is actually pretty successful. The cloning is pretty dumb and frustrating but I'm pretty sure his game is the best one. If it isn't then well, on to a new project.

This site is very clever:

http://www.ridiculousfishing.com/

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TheComet
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 18:55
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Don't question my knowledge of American geography!

TheComet


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mr Handy
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 18:55
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Quote: "The cloning is pretty dumb and frustrating"

But on the other hand, it's very profitable! Seriously, some people want mony no matter what way.

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 19:14
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Quote: "I can't respect unknown people for unknown reasons, there is nothing wrong about it."


So, you bash games that you've never heard of, or games from studios you've never heard of? There are billions out there. Open your eyes.

Quote: "I get Phaelax's post about bedroom coders pretending they are an "indie studio"


Woah! I don't even know where to begin. Every commercial game (including my games) have something of a brand, like a record label. You might as well say that Alien Moon Journey doesn't even exist! Games are out there whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter where you get a game.
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TheComet
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 19:54
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Quote: "So, you bash games that you've never heard of, or games from studios you've never heard of? There are billions out there. Open your eyes."


He's not bashing them, is he? He's just saying that he doesn't respect people he doesn't know.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 20:06 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 20:08
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Fluffy Rabbit, I'm in the process of starting up my own company that sells games made by other companies online. The company is going to be called 1337 Games Studios located at www.freewebsiteinhalfanhour.com/1337gamesstudios01/.

Hope you will check it out when its ready. Would love to sell your company's games on there.



Back on topic, yeah it's pretty ridiculous how close the clone is to Vlambeer's original. It really does look like they shifted the hue of every sprite from brown to blue and slapped a new name on the game. Hope Vlambeer comes out on top.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 20:07 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 20:10
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Do you know anyone who works at the studios which have produced the games you own? You don't know the president of EA. You can look him up if you want. You can look me up if you want. It's the same thing.

@RUCCUS-

I would love for your company to distribute my games. I tried going to the address, and the website doesn't appear to exist. You can email me the details at [email protected].
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RUCCUS
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 20:11 Edited at: 25th Apr 2013 20:14
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Googling Fluffy Rabbit brings up this.


His point is he doesn't respect those who don't earn it. If all you do is open up a freewebs account and say you have a game studio, you haven't earned any respect. He's not going to respect them just because they're another developer. This is completely logical thinking.

Fluffy, please don't divert yet another thread into the bowels of trollage. We are discussing the issues surrounding Vlambeer, not whatever it is you're going on about.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 21:27
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Quote: "RubiqLab has denied to outlets including Kotaku that the game was cloned from Luftrausers, and suggested that Vlambeer is probably just "jealous.""


The games actually remind me a lot of an Atari game with biplanes.

Quote: "I'm pretty sure Phaelax was hinting on the enormous amount of pseudo studios and kids with webs.com sites playing gamedeveloper."

Yes. I'm not bashing on anyone's attempts at making a game. But if you've been around on the forum as long as I have, you've seen plenty of of "hey join my game company, we already have a sphere on a matrix!" Not having heard of Rami's company or his games, I merely wanted to know if they in fact had something or not. It appears they do, so congrats to them. Have a congratulatory carrot


Quote: "That's just unfair. You say "attempts", huh? How many of these games would you call attempts?"

All of them.


As far as cloning goes, could Rami have a case against them by using this forum? I mean anything he used to post about the game prior to its release shows it being developed before the clone.

And as far as clones go, that will probably never go away. Angry Birds has been very successful and it's been cloned a few times. By myself included (though never released).

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 21:47
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A sphere on a matrix is as much of a finished commercial product as anyone can hope for, and most of the games I've seen go above and beyond that. I'm out of this thread.
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 22:10
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Good. I can post in the thread now without worrying about it getting stupid.

On the note of game cloning, aren't we treading a very hazy ground with this? I mean, it's a common speech to refer to anything with Aim-Down-Sights and a first person view a "CoD clone." Heck, Battlefield 3's campaign was about a US soldier being interrogated by his superiors, the levels being flashbacks as he told the story of what he had done, struggling to remember and fill the details.

Y'know, like Black Ops that released the year before.

There's also the Apple vs Samsung case. Sure, Samsung didn't directly copy Apple, they just released a 10" touch screen tablet with a silver trim and a screen covering most of the top surface, with a single button on the front.

I think the only way to protect yourself is to patent and trademark the crap out of everything.
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RUCCUS
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 22:20
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@CoffeeGrunt

Yeah when the cloning is on vague aspects of a game, there really isn't any way that the companies can fight it. Angry Birds is a perfect example, they came up with using a slingshot to propel 2D sprites at heaps of other sprites using Box2D and months later there were dozens of clones made, even with the same concept of using birds.

I think the issue here is, with Vlambeer's flying game at least, that they are virtually identical in every single way except for the name of the game and the color of the sprites.

Here's Vlambeer's Luftrauser:


And here's SkyFar
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Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 22:35
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I don't really know how you could objectively rule that a game was a clone. (I mean a facsimile not like a "doom clone".) I wonder if some Universal Pseudo Coding Language could be established that would break a program down to its core functionality to determine how similar two programs are, as it appears to the user, regardless of what language they are written in or what minor differences may lurk behind the scenes.


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Dar13
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Posted: 25th Apr 2013 22:53
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Quote: "I think the only way to protect yourself is to patent and trademark the crap out of everything."

Apple v. Samsung was about a design patent, so not even that will protect you against copycats(though the details in that case were just ridiculous, I mean Apple had patented beveled corners for goodness' sakes! These are simple design aesthetics, not any kind of breakthrough that a patent is supposed to represent.).

Hopefully Vlambeer kept something up their sleeves about Luftrausers, but this is why some game developers don't like showing gameplay while the game in development.

WTLD has been put on indefinite hold.
A new project is under initial development now.
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BMacZero
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 02:56
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Quote: "Hopefully Vlambeer kept something up their sleeves about Luftrausers, but this is why some game developers don't like showing gameplay while the game in development."

Fortunately I don't think this is going to be anywhere near as big of a problem for them as Ninja Fishing was - Luftrausers is adding a ton of new stuff to the original flash game, while SkyFar looks like a really dumbed-down version, IMO.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 09:13 Edited at: 26th Apr 2013 09:17
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Quote: "So, you bash games that you've never heard of, or games from studios you've never heard of? There are billions out there. Open your eyes."

Fluffy Rabbit is a bad troll or a kid. He ignores the term "being neutral".

@TehComet
Quote: "He's not bashing them, is he? He's just saying that he doesn't respect people he doesn't know."

I was saying am just not giving "positive" respect. "Doesn't respect" means negative reaction, when I am just being neutral to all other people here.

For the example, I respect TheComet for his LED matrix project, he got real skills and knowledge Other people here with forum badges is another example of respect.

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Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 26th Apr 2013 10:27
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I don't believe they're clones. They don't have access to the code and they can't steal the media. They should be legally allowed to copy the gameplay of another game and use it in their projects. How many Doom clones and Wolf3D clones were there back in the day? If you're basing this on the sprites of Luftrausers, then you can look at a game like Atari Combat and show the airplane levels.

I think imitation is a form of flattery. Since nothing was ripped off or stolen, there's no law that's broken.

There were a few games that came out that had exact gameplay elements from one of my beta games many years ago. I was disappointed that they released their full game before mine was done, but it's completely fair.


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RedFlames
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Joined: 25th Aug 2007
Location: Germania
Posted: 26th Apr 2013 10:50
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So if someone copies a song or movie or something as similar as possible they're still allowed to sell it as their own original content, just because they used their own instruments/voice or filmed it on their own?

I think there's a difference between a 'remake' of something that is not exactly brand-new anymore (which should preferably done by the same makers anyways, I guess) or a cover of a song that acknowledges the original artist and someone copying something 1:1 immediatly and selling it in direct competition to the orginal as their own thing. And I think that needs to be controlled atleast to some degree.

Imho homages and the like are okay, but rip-offs are not. That includes exact copies of a game, from gameplay to art and everything.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 11:04
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I posted about gameplay copying here

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Green Gandalf
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Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 26th Apr 2013 12:04
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I saw that but couldn't make much sense of it. Was it a translation from another language?
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mr Handy
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Location: out of TGC
Posted: 26th Apr 2013 12:31
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Yes, google translate. Translation is okay to understand.

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