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AppGameKit Classic Chat / screen handling

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Marla
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 10:00
hello,

i slowly get used to developing using the agk.

screen handling is still a problem for me.

i have read through your hands on agk book...

but i still do not know which is the best way to develop for most devices having different resolutions.

virtual or percentual resolution?

if virtual, use bigger graphics and let agk make them smaller on device with lower resolution, or small graphics and let agk make them bigger?

or is the percentual option the best way...

maybe you know other posts in this forum with this subject that are interesting... or articles from the internet?

i have found many interesting posts in this forum, but i am still not sure which is the "best" way...

thank you very much!!!

take care,

marla
Markus
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 11:04 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 11:08
different,
i using percentual,
if you want make a multiplayer its better both use the same virtual screensize.

if you use 100x100% at a 4:3 or 16:9 screen its not the correct ratio so i make this area bigger because i don't want black bars.
alternative you can use setspritesize(-1,y) or setspritesize(x,-1)
to prevent distortion.

i think virtual or percentual are the same.
if the backbuffer are 1000x1000 pixel
setvirtualresolution(100,100)
1000=100
1000=100
setvirtualresolution(1024,768)
1000=1024
1000=768

there are two interesting functions for graphics size.
SetResolutionMode( 1 )
SetGenerateMipmaps( 1 ) //default is 0

if you want use the zoom mode in game it is better you make/use hires images.

example:
Marla
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 12:35
markus, thank you very much!

so, there is no way to have high graphics quality with no black borders at all when using different devices?

are there so many different resolution ratios, or just two or three?

then maybe we could use virtual res. and for positioning and sizing do the code for each ratio?

how do big companies handle it? there games run on many different (android) devices - never seen a black border or somethin like this...

thank you. take care, m.
Markus
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 13:23 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 13:24
my example was without black borders.
if the virtual resolution match the screen size per same ratio you have no borders.
if you made the graphics => the device screen pixel size you have hi quality.
i made my graphics bigger that full hd because i want play at pc too.
the most resolutions are 16:9 4:3 1:1 or vice versa because orientation.
at pc some companies make a 4:3 game and if you play it full screen
at 16:9 they stretch it^^ or ther have a option wide screen
and fill the rest or don't use it.
for me is the screen the same as a resizeable window.
i can align my gui where i want at runtime.
in agk i missing a resize event.
Zwarteziel
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 13:29 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 13:30
Alternatively, you can use the SetScissor-command with a 0, 0, 0, 0 setting to get rid of black borders when using a virtual resolution. Example:



This sets a virtual resolution with a 1.3 aspect-ratio. Whenever a user's device has a different aspect ratio (e.g. my Android phone uses 1.6) the program keeps on using the 'ecxess' space to draw your graphics, instead of displaying black borders.
Marla
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 13:36
SetScissor sounds great - gonna test it.

as i have only 1 android device it is difficult to do a test for best resolution on different devices.

maybe i can lend one from a friend...

THANK YOU!!!
Markus
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 14:11
SetScissor(0,0,0,0) is a good idea, it shows the outside of the virtual screen area too.
the disadvantage is, if you want use the full screen you
have positions outside this virtual resolution.
thats not easy to align a gui element at top of screen
if there was before the black bars.
(i like/want a symmetric view.)
Marla
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 14:15
are there so many different aspect ratios?

might be a good idea to have e. g. graphic sizes for two most common aspect ratios.

and then get the ratio and use either the one or the other?
Markus
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 15:04 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 15:05
i test only with 16:9 and 4:3, widescreen or not.
you can change the width & height values in setup.agc for a test in window mode.
the graphics are allways 1:1 pixel aspect, and should look in game 1:1 too.
other problem is the device size itself.
Zwarteziel
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 15:20
@Markus
That is true: placing things like GUI-elements across the whole screen when using SetScissor(0,0,0,0) is a bit more tricky.

@Marla
I usually test with aspect ratio's of 1.7 (16:9), 1.6 (16:10) and 1.3 (4:3). I've found these three are used the most. For instance, a lot of people use 16:9 monitors or TV's, while quite a lot of android phones use a 16:10 ratio. Apple's products however, usually use the 4:3 ratio.
Marla
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 18:57
...still do not quite know how to do it the best, but i think i have to test some of the alternatives.

thank you very much for all your comments.

another thing i do not understand at all is different device cpu power.

i think this is controlled via fps settings...

have to test it.

take care, m.
Marla
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 19:12
...what i just do not get along with:

so, if i check aspect ratio... i have to do coding for all the aspect ratios i detect, with different graphics sizes, different sprite movement etc. - or do i understand it completely wrong?!

sorry, just do not understand it.

you know, i come from an envirenment for developing ios apps in windows.

there i have to load the graphics in different sizes for iphone 3 and 4, ipad, ipad mini...
Markus
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 20:50
therefor is the virtual resolution,
you code for this and agk scale it into the device screen.
the sprite size is also virtual but behind is a real image.
you can also make lowres graphics from hires for saving memory at old devices,i do not need it.

i don't know why your ios dev. enviroment don't downscale
itself and generate the output for each device.
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 22:00 Edited at: 27th Apr 2013 22:01
I use virtual resolution and the SetScissor command. Then I have a background image that is sized to fit just about any ratio and it fills the black bars nicely, either the ones above/below or right/left.

Virtual resolution is easier to program with if you want pixel perfect control of where everything is.

And you size your graphics for a higher resolution (I go with 960x640 for the higher iPhone definition). And the graphics look just fine in Windows and Mac.

EDIT: And I test on an iPad 2, iPad 3 and iPod Touch as well as three different Android devices (all with different resolutions).

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Phaelax
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 22:53
Not to hijack the thread, but how does the percentual resolution work? I always use virtual resolution because it makes clear sense to me, the other method just seems weird.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 00:15
In the percentage system, everything is positioned at some point within the 100% of both width/height.

Halfway across and down in the display is at 50,50.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Phaelax
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 01:57
How are sprites sized? Do they keep their dimensions or are they scaled?

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
Marla
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 09:33
phaelax, good to know that i am not the only one having problems in understanding the percentage system

i had no time to test it all... hope i find some time today.

i would call me a newbie but if it works i gonna post the code snippet(s) here.

one thing i still do not understand:

have to get used to fps and sync, but slowly understandit. percental system - understood how it works, but to me it sound to be impossible to exactly position objects on the screen...?!

e. g. if you have a platformer... a platform can be positioned percental, and a sprite (the player's character) can be positioned percental, too. but i think then it could happen that e. g. the player's character does not run extactly on the platform - if you know waht i mean?!

difficult...
Markus
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 09:54
you can define you wish refresh rate but it means not the maschine/device
can reach it.
the syncrate is important because its nonsense to redraw the screen 1000x per second. 30-60 fps is ok, 60 fps looks smooth.

setsyncrate(60,0)
print(screenfps())
sync()

the percental system just use a virtual resolution of 100.0 x 100.0
you can position the sprite in steps like 1,2,3,4,5 and give them a size with 1,2,3,4,5, you don't see if a pixel overlap.

for a plattformer the physics system is nice because it handle all collisions and it have Sensors.
this physics collision commands are very useful.
GetSpriteFirstContact
GetSpriteNextContact
GetSpriteContactSpriteID2
GetSpriteContactWorldX
GetSpriteContactWorldY

not difficult
Phaelax
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 10:22
So if I wanted to draw ten 32x32 sprites in a row:


I still can't find any reason why someone would ever want to use a system like this.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
Markus
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 11:52
@Phaelax
the same?
px#=0
for x = 0 to 9
drawSprite(spr, px#, 50)
px# = px# + GetSpriteWidth(spr)
next x
Marla
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 12:02
...theese are all very intersting and helpful code snippets.

no time, yet. gonna test them later. think i am going to get it going.

found some information in an ebook about fps. fps = 30 seems to be a good choice if developing for different devices...
Markus
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 13:42
the physic engine works with time steps and also with frames 30-xxxx.
she know the time between each frame and do the calculation.
at low fps she need more steps by calling a command or she get inaccurate.
i think its best to make a config or option and the user can shoose
his framerate.
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 18:07
I think the percentage system is sort of meant to automagically fill any display, despite the actual width and height.

In theory this is good, but I've heard people say that it can affect how your sprites look. They will be stretched or shrunk in one direction or another to maintain the correct percentage (or something like that).

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Marla
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 18:21
hi,

have a licence for an environment for developing android apps.

found some interesting ideas for handling different devices and resolutions.

just checking them... gonna post the main aspects later...
Naphier
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 18:48
I used the percentage system for dFenz. It has its ups and downs.
I have my background elements stretch and foreground always maintain aspect ratios. The only problem I ran into is iPad with it's odd aspect ratio so I let the game stick to the intended 5:3 aspect ratio.

There's something about black borders in a game that I just don't like. It sort of makes the game look unfinished. On the other hand, it is simple to ignore and there are some AppGameKit games that have it that I like a lot.

So I went with an "average" aspect ratio to try to fit all devices fairly well. I don't like that I have borders on iPad, but their aspect ratio is goofy.

I'm sure I could have accomplished the same with a virtual resolution, but placement was really really easy with the percentage system and I hardly had to think about how it would fit on other resolutions. Also, all of my assets are sized to 768x1280 and I let AppGameKit scale them down. They all look fine.

www.NaplandGames.com
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 18:56
You might try the SetScissor(0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0) command and make your main background over sized (I use 1280x1024, landscape) and it will fill all the black bar spaces. It is big enough that, with the ratio of my app (1.5), it does fill all devices I've tested on. And, I used the DEVICE_WIDTH and DEVICE_HEIGHT constants in Core.cpp to test all of the actual device ratios/sizes I could find for iOS and Android, and the bars always filled properly.

I think it only is for virtual, but it might work in percentage as well. The help text doesn't specify whether it works for both or only one.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Marla
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 10:52
...still could not test, sorry.

But hope to have some time this evening.

I think SetScissor(0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0) with virtual resolution (and maybe 1280 x 1024) might be the right way (for me).

Gonna post my code snippets - if it works...

If graphics tec. are scaled (up or down) - does the visual quality decrease?!

Take care and thank you all,

M.
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 17:51 Edited at: 1st May 2013 19:33
I have not tried my WIP on devices with less resolution, but I just tested in Windows using half my target resolution.

All of the graphics look pretty okay. They were, obviously, half the size in the 'full' size game.

I have tested my WIP on devices with larger sizes and the scaling up looked fine.

Decide what your main target device is going to be and use that resolution (or one with the same width/height ratio). Then have some standard background (if possible) that is created larger, but don't include anything that is key to the app outside of your target resolution. The larger background should be centered within your target resolution, that way any overlap fills the black bars above/below or left/right (you will never have both).

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Marla
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Posted: 1st May 2013 18:30
what ancient lady said in the last post maybe THE way...

fps: is this something to think about?

or just do not think about it? does agk do all the work, so if i e. g. set the spite speed to something it is (nearly) the same speed on any device?
Naphier
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Posted: 1st May 2013 18:55
For the most part AppGameKit handles the FPS, but once you have a prototype of your game you should test it out on some of the slower devices to decide what FPS is acceptable to you and your game.

With dFenz I noticed that on my HTC Droid Incredible 2 whenever an image was loaded I would see a bit of a framerate drop from 60 to around 48. So I simply designed the game so that it was based on an FPS of 48 and locked it in using SetSyncRate(48,0).

So you do have to think about it a little.

What Ancient Lady suggests with the sizing of your images is exactly how I did it, but I did allow the black bars on iPad since the aspect ratio is just odd.

Ancient Lady
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Posted: 1st May 2013 19:43
Naphier, using oversized images and SetScissor(0,0,0,0) worked a great treat for getting rid of the iPad bars.

I also did lots of tests on my devices. I set something up to time my character going his fastest from one side to the next. When I left the fps at 60, I couldn't get a consistent time (and I tried lots of tricks with adjusting things based on ratio of actual to target FPS).

But at 30 fps, I got a consistent time across all platforms (iOS, Android, Mac and Windows) and devices (iPod Touch iOS 5.1, iPad 2 iOS 6.1, Nexus 7 Android 4.2.2, Toshiba Thrive Android 4.0.4 {previously 3.2, but Toshiba 'fixed' it} and Samsung Galaxy S III Android 4.2.2).

And, since the game plays and looks fine at 30 fps, I'll stick with it.

I didn't think to try an intermediate value, maybe I will.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Naphier
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Posted: 1st May 2013 20:12
I should note that I picked 48FPS because a lot of my animations have a number of frames in a multiple of 12, so I just stepped down 12FPS. This "strategy" didn't make much difference as there's no notable difference when animation frames are not multiples of 12, but it might if you plan any to time anything to correspond with the animation.

Ancient Lady
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Posted: 1st May 2013 20:16
That makes a lot of sense and I will keep that in mind when I do animation things.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Marla
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Posted: 1st May 2013 21:00
ok, thank you all so very very much!!!

conclusion:

over sized main background (1.280 x 1.024 might be a good choice)
---
SetScissor(0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0)
---
use DEVICE_WIDTH and DEVICE_HEIGHT constants in Core.cpp to test
ratios / sizes for different devices.
---
using virtual sizing might be a good choice for the settings mentioned above.
---
48 fps might be a good choice as freame rate - SetSyncRate(48,0).


with theese settings i gonna make my next steps...

there is one very last thing that does interest me a lot - how to handle retina displays.

and if, using xcode or some environment for ios, the game might look better than those developed with agk...

cheers...
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 1st May 2013 21:33
The gotcha with targeting for retina displays is that you will need higher resolution images across the board.

And, for something meant to fill the background, you will end up with images that are too big for Android devices (they have a maximum image size).

One way to go is have a High Definition version of your app with all graphics designed for only the retina display type devices. This is typically twice the resolution (sort of) of the normal iPad device and can be made only for that one.

Assuming that you are using Tier 1, this is relatively easy. You have two Xcode projects, one for normal and one for high def. In the normal one, you have all the media in the normal resolution. In the high def one, create the same media but at double the resolution.

Now, in your AppGameKit project, create a constant value that is either set to 1 (for normal) or 2 (for hih def). Then anywhere in your code that you size, position or move something, use that multiplier on both the x and y values. Then set it for 1 and build the app. Copy the byte code file over to the normal Xcode project. Then set the constant to 2, build the app and copy the byte code file over to the high def Xcode project.

A sort of example:


Since you are only worried about the retina display for iOS, you don't need to keep the high def images in your AppGameKit project or use them in Android builds.

You might use them for Mac, if you want to do a high res version there.

And, the only environment for doing the iOS and Mac stuff (at this time and required by Apple) is on a Mac in Xcode.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Naphier
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Posted: 1st May 2013 21:39
That's a good method, Ancient Lady.
I never even thought of that.
Another thing that might be worth mentioning here is the maximum texture sizes.
Can we go up to 4096x4096 on all devices yet?

Ancient Lady
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Posted: 1st May 2013 21:41
Quote: "Can we go up to 4096x4096 on all devices yet?"

I don't know. I suspect not.

And I'm not sure if this is an Android limitation or a limitation for Android with AGK.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Naphier
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Posted: 1st May 2013 21:46
I'm pretty sure I used up to 2048x2048 at one point, but it looks like I reduced everything back down below 1024x1024 so I'm assuming there was an incompatibility somewhere. But I'm not sure.

Marla
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Posted: 1st May 2013 22:11
there are other devices haven even "more" pixels than retina displays.

htc has one ore more devices, ...

it might be difficult to support all theese high pixel displays in a cross platform environment...
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 1st May 2013 22:16
I wonder if it is an overall size issue, not necessarily absolute width/height.

My over sized backgrounds are 1280x1024 and all devices (Android, iOS) have been okay with that. But it might be because I set the size of the sprite to the desired size immediately after the image sprite is created.

The issue with using very high resolution images (aside from whether the device supports them) is also the space they take. The bigger the image, the more memory. If you don't have many large images, it might not be an issue. These are some of the things to think about, anyway.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Marla
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 10:08
retina (and other "high" pixel displays) = more pixels per inch - correct?

then oversized backgrounds and graphics should be a solution, right?

cheers,

m.
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 17:12
Retina/high def is more pixels to the inch.

But, in order to use them effectively, you also need to set the virtual resolution of your app to display all those pixels.

If your image is 2048x2048 (just picking random numbers) and your app resolution is 1024x1024, the higher resolution image just gets squished down and you lose the high definition.

If you are going to make something for high def/retina, the app resolution needs to be the same.

AGK will shrink/grow to fill portable devices as much as possible. But that doesn't mean the resolution gets better on a bigger device. AppGameKit will still convert images to your specified resolution and then expand again to fill the space (if it is bigger).

So, just over sizing images isn't enough if you want it to be truly high def.

But, there is actually no need for higher resolution images to fill high def/retina devices. AppGameKit will fill the space just fine.

You will want over sized backgrounds to fill the black bars on devices with ratios different than your specified resolution. You only need a little more. My target resolution is 960x640 and my over size backgrounds are 1280x1024 (probably more than I need, but it covers the display ratios well).

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Marla
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 17:24
hi ancient lady,

thank you very much for helping me!!!

what i do not understand in your last post:

you say "...there is actually no need for higher resolution images to fill high def/retina devices. AppGameKit will fill the space just fine...".

but if my images are too small - they look not the best on retina...?!

i do not want to go on your nerves - sorry for all my questions.

but there is this one thing i just do not understand...

e. g. let's stay in he ios world.

there are at least the following resolutions:

iPad, 3rd Gen.: 2048 x 1536
iPad 2: 1024 x 768
iPhone 5: 1136 x 640
iPhone 4S: 960 x 640
iPod touch, 5th Gen.: 1136 x 640

so what would be the best resoltution of my (background) images? to get the best quality on retina displays?

how should i set my virtual resolution?

thank you very much...!!!

by the way: are your apps available on appstore? for sale? would like to buy (someof) them... thank you for your support!!!
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 17:48 Edited at: 2nd May 2013 17:50
The key is to pick the resolution you want to design for and do that.

The problem with currently targeting the iPad 3 high res is that your image sizes may be too big for Android. There is some limitation on the size of images allowed (and I am not sure if this is within AppGameKit or Android).

Once you pick your target resolution, assuming you want to fill the black borders on devices with different height/width ratio than your target, then you create your background to be just big enough to cover the area. And you can test all device resolutions against your app resolution using the width and height values in the setup.agc (assuming you are going with Tier 1) file to simulate your device resolutions. Of course, the iPad retina resolution may be too much for your PC. But, the key is to make the height and width such that the ratio is the same as what you want to test and bigger than your actual app resolution.

For example:
Target resolution for iPad 2 (landscape width/height ratio = 1.33):
- ratio is the same as iPad 3, so there would be no black bars
- ratio different for all iPhones and iPod touches whose ratios are all larger and there would be bars on the right/left

Images targeted for iPad 2 resolution would look fine on an iPad 3.

Quote: "are your apps available on appstore? for sale?"

Not yet. I am in the final stages of my WIP and hope to have it out soon. Paul just helped me solve an issue in v10811 and I may be able to set up for Facebook interaction.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master

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