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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK or DBPro

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Munchy2007
10
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Joined: 21st May 2013
Location: Hemel Hempstead - UK
Posted: 22nd May 2013 15:52
Hi, I've recently (within the last week) bought the DarkBasic development kit as I wanted to try my hand at some 3D game development, however having read some of the forum it seems to me like DBPro is 'on the way out'.

So my question is therefore, is there much point in learning DarkBasic 3D, or would my time be better spent learning AppGameKit and waiting until they add support for 3D to it at a later date.

Basically is AppGameKit the 'new' DarkBasic and will all the development and support from TGC be going towards that moving forward?

Thanks for reading
Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Location: Metropia
Posted: 22nd May 2013 16:56
AGK is their new product and therefore gets most of the attention right now. I don't know if they're still making updates to DB or not.


You can probably do more with DB than AGK. There's a lot of information, tutorials, and 3rd party plugins that make it a powerful tool. But if you want to target the mobile game market, then AppGameKit is the way to go.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
Ancient Lady
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Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posted: 22nd May 2013 17:01
They are currently getting the 3D stuff up to speed with DB.

The biggest benefit of AppGameKit over DB is that it is cross platform and you really can 'code once..deploy many' with relatively little work (once you get past the setups).

It also gives you the option to work in Basic (Tier 1) or C++ (Tier 2) or Pascal (non-TGC Tier 3).

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
Van B
Moderator
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Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 22nd May 2013 17:13
There are still a lot of things that you can do in DBPro compared to AGK. AppGameKit will get more and more, but it does take time. Really it depends on what sort of projects you have in mind, for example if you need complex 3D collision or physics, bone animated models etc etc, it's a safer bet to use DBPro - but I think that people are being more realistic about what projects they undertake, and as said - the multi-platform aspects of AppGameKit make it a very tempting option.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
Markus
Valued Member
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Joined: 10th Apr 2004
Location: Germany
Posted: 22nd May 2013 17:30
i have a lot of problems with DBPro since win7.
something did not work anymore and no updates.
DBPro is fine for hobby development but now i like more agk because
cross platform and support at any problems.
Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
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Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 22nd May 2013 17:45
DBP is Windows only. If that's all you want, then I believe you are set. It's very easy to learn AppGameKit once you know DBP. However, porting projects over is a bit of work.

AgentSam
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Location: Virtual Space
Posted: 22nd May 2013 17:57 Edited at: 22nd May 2013 18:53
Munchy2007,

Select carefully from the language options that Ancient Lady posted.
Each option has it's own pros and cons. I'll list the most noteworthy differences:

TIER 1 - AppGameKit BASIC Dialect

Pros:
- With the AppGameKit Basic you will get started fast, because you will not need any other development tools to compile and run your programs.
- All of the TIER1 examples should compile and work in latest AppGameKit without a problem.
- Good enough for hobby development.

Cons:
- Often falls short on more serious projects.
- Rather lousy documentation!
- The included IDE for AppGameKit Basic has a number of shortcomings - no code folding, no function lists, etc.
- No debugger support!
- Platform support is limited to what TGC includes in AGK.
- Several important features missing from the language (not supported by the compiler).
- Compiler is based on technology that was developed around 10 years ago, and it's still not mature.
- Slower program performance due to the need for a "player" that runs the compiled bytecode.

TIER 2 - C++

Pros:
- Well defined, complete and mature language implementation.
- Fast program execution.
- Your program will have access to all platform specific functions and libraries via C++.
- You can include additional audio libraries, input libraries, etc.
- You can take advantage of the native debugging facilities of each development environment (see below).

Cons:
- You will need additional tools:
* On Windows, you will use Visual Studio 2010 (express or full).
* On a Mac, you will use XCode.
* For Android, you will use Eclipse.
- There is a significant setup overhead associated with Tier 2.
- There are problems with the code templates provided with AppGameKit that need to be sorted out.
- AppGameKit code samples for TIER2 are old and have not been updated in ages. They may not compile without some tweaking.

TIER 3 - Object Pascal

Pros:
- Well defined, complete and mature language implementation.
- AppGameKit functions wrapped into a class model.
- Rather good and clear documentation (if you're used to working with OOP and class models).
- Fast execution and a huge number of additional objects and classes for DelphiXE3.
- Good debugger support in DelphiXE3.

Cons:
- You will be somewhat reliant on Erik van Bilsen, who is the builder of the Pascal wrapper for AGK.
* The latest AppGameKit betas are usually not usable. But Eric does a very good job at converting the stable releases (which are what you will usually want to use).
- DelphiXE3 is not free! (But you can also use the Lazarus (IDE) with Free Pascal.)

BRIEF SUMMARY

TIER 1 - Basic certainly is the worst of the language options by far! (At times it is just dreadful.) But it might be ok, if you're not that serious about programming.
TIER 2 - If you're going to develop something more or less professionally, then you'll be happiest with TIER 2 in the long run. There's a fairly steep learning curve though.
TIER 3 - Object pascal (wheather in DelphiXE or in Lazarus) is very pleasant to work with. If you're thinking about TIER 2, think about TIER 3 too! If you invest in Delphi XE3, I can guarantee that you won't be sorry.

AGK or DBPro

Both, of course. X)

Cheers,
AgentSam
Munchy2007
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Location: Hemel Hempstead - UK
Posted: 22nd May 2013 18:49
Thanks for all the answers guys, I think the speed and amount of replies is actually a pretty good indication of where all the current action is

I've got a background as a applications and hobby game programmer having used XNA and Visual C# for a few years (I have access to Visual Studio as a consequence of my job), however I found the jump from 2D to 3D a bit too steep a learning curve in XNA, and I've already achieved more 3D results with Dark Basic within just a few days.

It sounds like Tier2 will probably suit me the best as I'm already familiar with c#, although up until now I've only programmed on the PC, that's mainly been down to my lack of an easily accessible development platform, and it would be nice to do something for mobile devices.

Tier3 sounds interesting too, I did a bit of programming in Delphi a long time ago, might be fun to re-visit it.

I think I'll most likely play around with Dark Basic and learn how it handles 3D but also get AppGameKit and see what I can do with that in 2D. Then when they add 3D support for AppGameKit I imagine it'll be similar to how DBPro does it now so I should have a bit of a head start.

Once again thanks for all the replies, it's been very helpful.
Munchy2007
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Location: Hemel Hempstead - UK
Posted: 22nd May 2013 18:52
Quote: "AGK or DBPro

Both, of course. X)"


Haha! I didn't notice this until after I'd posted my last reply, that sums up my whole wall of text much more succinctly
Ancient Lady
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Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posted: 22nd May 2013 20:13
For Android work you will need Cygwin (even if you don't use the window) Eclipse, regardless of Tier.

For Mac and iOS you will need a Mac and Xcode, again regardless of Tier.

The last set of templates provided with v10811 were actually workable. Hopefully they will continue that with v10812.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
Munchy2007
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Joined: 21st May 2013
Location: Hemel Hempstead - UK
Posted: 22nd May 2013 20:39
I've just ordered the AppGameKit community edition, Looks like I'll be digging out my C++ reference manuals again, the fact that Pascal support seems to rely on a third party kind of put me of tier 3 as an option.

But what's this about Cygwin, I thought that AppGameKit fully supported Android platform development.
JimHawkins
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Joined: 26th Jul 2009
Location: Hull - UK
Posted: 22nd May 2013 21:02
On the Object Pascal front:

The Pascal implementation contains all the source code, so it's not a sealed system and can be user-updated for the brave!

For Android or Mac you will need to use Lazarus and Free Pascal. For PC you can use that or Delphi (7 to XE4).

The Pascal does NOT need Cygwin, and, with a few modifications to batch files, does not need Eclipse either. The Lazarus IDE and Free Pascal can produce native Windows, Android and Mac programs as well as AGK. Lasarus has Mac and Linux versions as well as PC, so if you want to work on a Mac or Ubuntu, you can.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 22nd May 2013 21:51
I stand corrected about needing Cygwin. I was mistakenly thinking that it was the c++ compilers installed with Cygwin that did the compiling.

I would have to read through the Apple Mac and iOS Developer licenses to be sure which it is (and it might be both). But one of them requires that the final submission be packaged in Xcode on a Mac device. And I think Xcode does handle Pascal (I seem to remember someone asserting that in this forum at one point).

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
JimHawkins
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Location: Hull - UK
Posted: 22nd May 2013 23:24
AL - Xcode IDE can indeed use any language which has a parser available. Although Delphi XE4 appears to compile directly to native code for Mac OS and iOS, I believe Xcode is still needed for signing.

Interesting only for nerds is that on the PC the libraries are in a DLL, so it should be relatively easy (if tedious) to produce interfaces from any language.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Ancient Lady
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Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posted: 22nd May 2013 23:43
Quote: "I believe Xcode is still needed for signing."

Absolutely necessary, as per the license. Apple keeps things tight.

Way back when (about 10 years ago), I had to create some Windows DLLs that would interface with TCL. It was an interesting exercise and very educational.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
JimHawkins
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Location: Hull - UK
Posted: 23rd May 2013 00:26 Edited at: 23rd May 2013 00:53
Delphi or C++ Builder now do NOT need Xcode, as far as reading the docs tells me. It can do all the provisioning itself. Embarcadero must have had this discussion with Apple.

Erik can advise - (it!!!!) he does Mac development using Delphi for a living.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
AgentSam
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Location: Virtual Space
Posted: 23rd May 2013 00:51
Jim,

it?
JimHawkins
14
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Joined: 26th Jul 2009
Location: Hull - UK
Posted: 23rd May 2013 00:52
Whoops! Ta. Will change now!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL

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