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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK Kickstarter?

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pprem
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 01:39
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About HTML5, I know Rick but I hope for the future, because I think it's the tomorrow's language. All computers / console will have a compatible browser. What you tried with Freedom Engine was a good approach, but probably too early.

I only use 2D commands, for me 3D is for fun and perhaps future projects.

To finance AppGameKit, I think you can propose two prices :
- one for personal use only (with only Windows compiler) at low price, with fix included
- one for commercial use at higher price, including minor upgrade & fix, and 1 paid release each year

I bought AppGameKit 1,5 year ago, when you released it. Only one payment for your program, but 1 per year for Apple (iOS + Mac OS), 1 per year for Embarcadero products, 1 per year for other development products because I follow new versions.

I didn't understand why 1.08 exists. For me, it's a release 2 with 3D commands. I think you're too generous with us

Kickstarter will help you getting one time money, but is it enough to maintain a program for years ?

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Patrick P.
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Auger
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 01:42
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I'd most likely support it. Html5 would make me definitely want to support it *hint*


Auger
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MikeMax
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 03:46 Edited at: 13th Jun 2013 03:54
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Quote: "@Matty H - thanks for your support and appreciation, and yes Paul is a genius!"


Agree with that


But some people seems to forget that 3d/OpenGL commands improvements can enhance also a 2D Games (also based on OpenGL). The 3D effects (the future post processed shaders especially etc etc...) can be easily integrated in a 2D Game and make them awesome. So the 3D commands Roadmap can also affect 2D Games in the good way.


AGK is a great product (for having tested almost all the frameworks, SDKs and other cross-platform products). With the "one click APK generation" and a maybe a "reflector" command which allows to incorporate non already implemented commands for Tier1/Tier2, it will become the GREATEST product with already :

- Unique multi-broadcasting feature (Tier1) which is essential to test on multiple devices at the same time (what a gain of time !)
- Simple basic language with a lot of commands (i never have been really limited in my Tier1 projects with actual commands... except for very specific commands like 3D animations or post-process shaders ... but they will be coming i'm sure !)
- Very stable and optimized (in 2D and even in 3D)
- Network and multiplayer commands can't be simpler
- Native with Tier2 and a .NET Framework
- social network and ads support
- ... and all other features ...


- and a great forum support with TGC Team which is very reactive

Some other products use a monthly fee or ask you to pay periodically for updates... there, in that case, you might complain... but it's not the case here.

And if you don't want to pay (or you can't ! i know that is difficult for some people) for a new enhanced AppGameKit, stay with your old one version which works well for you !


Seriously, if TGC and AppGameKit need help, they will find it here i'm pretty sure.

Long Life to TGC and AppGameKit !
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 10:40
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@pprem - there is no annual licensing for most Embarcadero products - certainly not Delphi.

Personally, I think TGC would have been better off having a paid upgrade policy (like Embarcadero). My company has spent a lot of money on Delphi upgrades. Most users accept that you can't expect a company to keep adding more bells and whistles for nothing.

Most companies also will forbid using beta versions in release code, and usually have a signed-up group of beta testers, rather than just letting anybody play with it.

Apart from the desperate necessity to improve the sound, for AppGameKit to be really successful it needs (in my opinion):

* Better visual design tools.

* Full modifiable frameworks for common game styles, like platform games, card games etc., which users can tailor to their game without having to write several thousand lines of obscure code.

* A plugin mechanism, or a Lua gateway. Plugins do not need to be free - there are many experiences programmers in this forum who would accept TGC taking a royalty on sales. That way, instead of moaning on about "I don't want this and I don't want that" people could choose what they wanted.

The prospects of things like this would attract some Kickstarter money, I'm sure.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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RickV
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 12:06
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Hi all, thanks for your continued responses.

My replies;

@MarcoBruti - I agree with you, we need to get these compiler issues sorted. I think Paul has fixed all he knows about with AppGameKit and hopefully he can review these Compiler issues too. It's unfortunate we've not been able to focus on this sooner.

@mr_d - We did think about acting as a publisher in the past. It's just not something we can take on and prefer to focus on developing the tools. Publishing is a very involved process.

@CodeGit - thanks for your support.

@TDavid - thanks for your support and feedback.

@Munchy2007 - thanks for your support and feedback.

@Phaelax - I have added HTML5 platform to the kickstarter stretch goals.

@Grook - now that Paul has sorted the help, he can now work on the APK system, so a week or two maybe!

@XanthorXIII - Thanks for your thoughts. We'll see where this journey takes us in the next few months.

@29 games - Thanks for your support and thoughts.

@Ian Rees - Thanks for your support and thoughts.

@Max Tillberg - Thanks for your support and thoughts.

@313 - cheers for your thoughts and support.

@Santman - you will see that the features we will list in the Kickstarter are for the better of the product (not our own selfish needs). A lot of what we added for the driving apps were needed by the community anyway. Developing real apps does sharpen the tool and find many unseen issues (text drawing speed for example). Steam sounds a good avenue, we'll take a review of this soon.

@Naphier - Thanks for your support!

@tornado - Cheers!

@pprem - thanks for your thoughts.

@Auger - thanks for your support and thoughts.

@MikeMax - cheers for such kind comments (always nice to read). This is why we are still working to make AppGameKit even better!

@JimHawkins - sound improvements will be one of the first things on this list! Maybe the community could make some of these game frame works? I'll talk with Paul and Lee about the plug-in idea, it is something we have kicked around but have not got a clear solution just yet.

Rick

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pprem
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 12:20
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@JimHawkings - @pprem - there is no annual licensing for most Embarcadero products - certainly not Delphi.

except if like me you buy each new release

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Patrick P.
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fog
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 12:56
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Apologies for the length of reply in advance. You've a lot more experience in this sort of thing than any of us but here goes anyway....

I'll echo pretty much everything JimHawkins said.

Yearly fees or any sort of subscription will scare a lot of people off. Paid for plugins for additional features or upgrades (eg. that add extra platforms) seems like the most beneficial approach for everyone.

If you need money up front before committing to working on something, and which small business doesn't these days, then why not ask people to fund any plugins or upgrades they want by paying in advance to get it at a reduced cost. eg. £20 to help fund a sound plugin which will be sold at £30 when complete. Only once a funding target is met do you start work on that plug-in or upgrade.

Also why Kickstarter? I know it's fashionable and great for reaching a wide audience to fund new projects, but the only people who are going to fund this are people who already have AGK. Why not "sell" direct and cut-out Kickstarter fees? Surely you have more chance of reaching your potential customers here on TGC's own site than you have on Kickstarter?

Finally, given the resources you have and time available, you guys have been far too generous with AGK. I know you're doing it for all the right reasons, but trying to incorporate every customers wish-list means things get a bit unfocused, targets are constantly moved and deadlines are missed.

Constantly jumping from one thing to another just isn't an efficient way for Paul to work. Anyone that's worked in that sort of environment will recognise that and know that sort of approach means things take twice as long and mistakes are more likely to be made

It's good that you are listening to everyone. I just hope you can make the hard decisions, be a bit more focused, stop being so generous and where appropriate start charging for upgrades and plug-ins. ( I bet that's a popular opinion with the rest of the community! )

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Juande
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 13:18 Edited at: 13th Jun 2013 13:24
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I don't know how kickstarter works... but i would like to help you.

I have any questions:

- How much money do you need? (I am unemployment and my games are not sold
- If we help you, will the update be free for AppGameKit users?

Thanks!
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 14:17
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Thanks, fog. I agree with you!

Hobbyists might complain, but power is something that has to be paid for one way or another. Take fishing, or radio-controlled planes, and look at the amount of cash you have to deploy.

I think the key thing is that a new release has to made with NO new features before anything else happens. The first stage of this is that the library files (core files) need to be as stable as possible. This is nothing to do with the Basic compiler, which looks as though it needs a total rewrite to drag it into the 20th Century.

Making plugins for C++ or Pascal is easy now. But if the core libraries have issues we're going nowhere. There's a terrible confusion between the limitations of the Basic compiler and what the engine that underlines it can do. I'd guess the majority of errors reported here are Basic errors. So fix the obvious ones and then plan for Advanced AppGameKit Basic, with OOP functions and extensibility, and set a price for it.

Kickstarter projects need clear goals, not vague promises.

In this way users signing up for a Kickstarter project have effectively pre-paid for the next version and expect to wait.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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MobileCreator
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 15:54
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AGK has already a lot of support from the current customers/fans. A kick starter campaign could bring more attention to it from who is not, and probably is what TGC needs the most, right?

For that, "selling" AppGameKit focusing on T1 is the best I can think of. BASIC is easy to learn and this is a great appeal to new users that are willing to create games. I understand the C++ is already there "for free" since it is the base of everything, but I really think the Tier 1 is the best AppGameKit could offer.

The campaign should focus mainly in making Tier 1 a professional-grade tool, including awesome IDE, debugging, extensibility, etc...

Also, one thing that Microsoft does very well is their Starter Kits, where you have few very good and complete games that you can change and tweak as you need.

I'm against the subscription model just because implies a monthly commitment and people are usually resistant to that. It could have an additional subscription-based option where you guys can add something else (publishing?).

I think it would be a better model if you sell it once, and create a huge eccosystem where the users can buy assets, sounds, native extensions, etc...

About the later, imagine that you have a basic product, then you offer all Facebook support as an add-on that can be "plugged-in" the Tier 1 (I know Facebook is already there, but is the first thing that came to mind). Same thing about any feature "XYZ" some people are asking for. You could say "I know few people need ScoreLoop support, but not enough to make us do it right now", but if you do it and sell the add-on, you will have a constant revenue stream, right?

All the assets including add-ons could be done by "expert-users" where they get a cut of the sales.

Look at Unity. With the recent change in the licensing for mobile, they are betting on the add-ons/extensions market + a professional version.

You could even add a subscription option for those who choose to where the subscriber could have access to exclusive content like starter-kits, free add-ons, etc.

If you use KickStarter to do this, I'm in

Paulo

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 17:24
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@MobileCreator, as one who switched from Tier 1 to Tier 2, I would be extremely upset if Tier 2 did not continue to be kept up to date with Tier 1. I think there are files/libraries created for Tier 2 that aren't directly used by Tier 1 (and ones that are specific to each platform).

Tier 1 is very flexible. But it does not really allow object oriented programming and does not have access to many C++ libraries and features that at least a few of us now use to take better advantage of AGK.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
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xCept
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 17:46
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Regarding HTML5, as I recall Freedom Engine took the approach of using WebGL for virtually all operations. This made sense from TGC's perspective because AppGameKit is built off of OpenGL and the migration process to Web was much more streamlined. However, the WebGL approach is less than adequate as it is still widely unsupported and slow on many devices. But at least for a phase one implementation of HTML export, I guess this would be acceptable (and in the future may be perfectly fine).

For 3D, WebGL will always be the only feasible option, but for the vast majority of AppGameKit apps (2D) using native HTML5 canvas and JavaScript would bring significant speed improvements especially now that all modern browsers have good support for Canvas and fast Javascript rendering. All of the popular 2D game engines that support HTML5 do so by rendering native HTML5/JavaScript using Canvas, and can produce very smooth and fast loading products as a result. Of course, this is a massive undertaking and another maintenance consideration for TGC.
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lilpissywilly
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 17:53
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I think AppGameKit "basic" should be what you get when you buy AGK. A sort of floor platform, let's say v1076 could be this (for example). Upgrades in the basic language could be free, but things like improved 2d commands, improved sound, 3d, improved 3d and so forth could be add-ons that will cost the user money, so when a new upgrade comes (not bugfixes or improvements in the basic language) one can choose if it's worth investing in or not.

However, I would very likely back a kickstarter if that happens as I enjoy AGK.

My hovercraft is full of eels
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MobileCreator
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 18:24
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@Ancient Lady

I think the focus should be Tier 1, but since the development probably happens like Tier2 commands -> Tier1 commands, Tier2 will be always up to date since it is the foundation of everything.

My point is that there are already very good mobile C++ libraries around (even free), so focusing on that on a kickstart campaign would "convince" only who's already using it not bringing new users.

About BASIC, even with its limitations is that it has appeal to non-C programmers or no programmers in general, and it also allows a self-contained development environment. It is really hard for beginners to get around setting up Eclipse, XCode, etc... + libraries etc...

Cheers

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 19:25 Edited at: 13th Jun 2013 19:27
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@MobileCreator, I'm not trying to put down Tier 1. I actually had my WIP going fairly well until I started to run into string related issues.

I've done a lot of programming in Basic over the past 30+ years on a variety of platforms. It is a good language with a long history.

But it is not necessarily the case that Tier 2 files would be kept up to date with Tier 1 by default. All of the AppGameKit functionality is within the libraries and the Tier 2 interface files for the different platforms aren't necessary for Tier 1 development or the development of the AppGameKit engine supporting the interpreter.

And AppGameKit is for more than just mobile platforms. It works very nicely in Windows and Mac.

Also, if you plan to publish in iOS, you still have to deal with Xcode (and the AppGameKit Xcode projects work very well in both tiers). That is something dictated by Apple.

Until they get the one-button apk development for Tier 1, Eclipse is still necessary for apk building.

Since the one-step apk build would be from the AppGameKit IDE, us Tier 2 developers will still need the libraries and base projects for Android development.

EDIT: And if AppGameKit doesn't keep up Tier 2 along with Tier 1, they will need to change their site because working in both Basic and C++ is one of the features they promote. It is number two in their list (after cross platform).

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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risecreature
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Posted: 13th Jun 2013 20:55
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Sure. Sure. Sure.
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Fud
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Posted: 14th Jun 2013 03:29
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I would support a kickstarter campaign. I think that it has the potential to increase awareness of AppGameKit as a viable tool and to bring more coders (or potential coders) in to the fold.
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Alien Menace
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Posted: 14th Jun 2013 09:42 Edited at: 14th Jun 2013 09:52
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To be honest, I feel AGK's development was adversely affected when you decided to put your time and resources into Freedom Engine and when that project ended and the focus finally swung back to AppGameKit a lot of very amazing things began to happen pretty quickly. So when you guys are focused and committed, you are capable of doing some really great work in a relatively short amount of time. So I am optimistic as long as you can stay focused on the task at hand, AppGameKit could end up being something really special.

Now, having said that I would not support a subscription model, I'd probably go back to using GLBasic or stick with the current version of AppGameKit before supporting something like that. Subscriptions. Yuck.

So here's what I would do... First, I would stabilize 108 and add the items promised by Rick to the current version of the language, after all a promise is a promise. Then I would produce a PRO version of AppGameKit that would have all the items from the survey. Maybe charge $199 for this enhanced version with a reasonable upgrade for users of the standard version. AppGameKit standard would be feature-frozen but bugs would still be fixed.

So, I'd support a Kickstarter for a PRO version if TGC is willing to make a commitment to make it happen in a short period of time. There would have to be a solid schedule of dated milestones and you would have to make it a priority to meet these but if it's progress was subject to it's resources being diverted to any shiny new penny project that comes along then I would probably not support it.

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Markus
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@Alien Menace
i don't like to see a std or pro version because we want
share our source code here.
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Steve Ancell
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 04:15
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I really don't like the subscrition idea, I prefer the buy once option; subscriptions may be OK for anyone monetising from their apps but it really rips the bottom out of a lot of hobbyists.
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MarcoBruti
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I agree with @Steve, especially for Android developers. The net earnings of this current month for me are about 3€, so it is anti-economical for me to subscribe a 5€ monthly fee. Adversely, Apple developers, who already spend some big bucks for Apple stuffs and licenses, but earn a lot,the subscription fee may be appealing.
But for us poor hobbysts and with so little earning (on Android it is almost normal) I would be inclined to pay, let's say other 50€ to try to product higher qualities apps in order to increase my "market share"
Having already paid about 74€, adding other 50€ would reach a value of about 120+ €, that should give us a stable and reliable product.
Additional upgrades could be realeased in "paid" form or subscribptions, Subscription could be for features that must be kept updated constantly, e.g. IAP libraries, Facebook, etc.
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Markus
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Posted: 15th Jun 2013 21:43
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what about a survey with virtual KickStarter, monthly fee,pay at update or other accounting methods with some road map targets?
everyone can input his values (changeable later) and then we can see what is best
and what he would have to pay as average value(maybe in realtime).
if someone don't like the accounting method he can input 0.
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313
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One more idea about earning money with (sold) AGK. To make game development as easiest as possible and to make visual programming tool based on basic AppGameKit language (similar for Kismet and PlayMaker). I personaly would buy it for sure.

AGK
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bjadams
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 15:02
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If with the new features through KS, AppGameKit would become as competent as Cocos & Unity (which are free), then I would be willing to support.
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 16:55
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I don't really know what to think about a Kickstarter funding. I paid the initial price of AGK. TGC cut the price and all updates are free so I am not surprised that funds are low. 3D was added before core functionality and 2D was fully fleshed out. And 3D is far from fully supported at this point. Freedom Engine was a disaster and TGC's Kickstarter projects have not worked out. The lack of focus on AppGameKit as well as the lack of focus on core functionality, bug fixing, the IDE and a robust 2D worries me. I also believe that TGC missed a huge marketing potential by not committing to Ouya and thousands of first time developers (like Game Maker, Unity and others). What I see is a focus on new gimmicks instead of core gameplay.

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The Zoq2
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I agree with most things that digital says, TGC have been lacking in there ability to focus on doing one thing in the past.
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greenlig
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I don't know how I feel about this. I was very excited when AppGameKit was announced, as I have been with all TGC releases since I bought DBC in the 90's. I like the languages, community, etc. I purchased it as soon as I could, and made a heap of little projects with it.

The problem for me is that it doesn't have core 2D functionality, as DigAw said. I have no use for 3D when I can get it much, much easier (and cheaper!) in Unity. The solid, fleshed out, fast, extensive 2D was what got me excited, along with the HTML5 support. It honestly feels like in a rush to add "cool" features, creating something unique and powerful was overlooked. If you made AppGameKit THE #1 tool for developing cross platform 2D games, you'd move into a nice niche market. Going 3D and trying to compete with Unity just doesn't make sense. You can't convince anyone to change from it, as it's free, and throws in much more features. Also, it's been around for a long time, and has a massive userbase. Why compete? I'd much rather create 2D games in AppGameKit than Unity, but it's just not smart at the moment. The Unity Webplayer has a large install base, meaning I can make something cool, and push it anywhere (phone, online, desktop), and know that the barrier to seeing it is very low. That was the initial pitch for AppGameKit - lowering the barrier to getting eyes on your game. I feel that has gone by the wayside.

AGK needs to be able to export to HTML5, and it needs to have a stronger focus on what it can do well. I was sold on that being 2D, and frankly, have no real interest in moving into 3D development with it. It competes directly with a much more stable tool, and doesn't make sense for me.

Would I back a Kickstarter? More than likely. I like TGC, and want to keep using their products. Do I think you'll get enough interest to succeed with the Kickstarter? I have strong doubts. It's a very, very tough market, and unless you present something that fills a real gap, you wont get people to part with their money. Essentially, your current users will Kickstart, and not many outside that.

I want AppGameKit to succeed, but the lack of strong direction frustrates me a bit. If it had a smart, unique IDE (like Light Table), deep 2D command set, plugin ability(I'd pay for this), and HTML5 export, I'd use it all the time.

Greenlig

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MikeMax
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 19:15
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Quote: "I have no use for 3D when I can get it much, much easier (and cheaper!) in Unity. (......) Going 3D and trying to compete with Unity just doesn't make sense."


Unity is 1500$ for commercial use + 1500$ for compile to ios + 1500$ for compile to android (if you want to use for commercial use.. there is a lot of cracked-Unity commercial apps on appstore and google play ... it's not the way i want for AGK)...

Unity is too much complicated for little 3D games (and too much expensive ...).
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xCept
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 19:17 Edited at: 16th Jun 2013 19:21
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Quote: "Unity is 1500$ for commercial use + 1500$ for compile to ios + 1500$ for compile to android (if you want to use for commercial use.. there is a lot of cracked-Unity commercial apps on appstore and google play ... it's not the way i want for AGK)..."


Unity's free version supports publishing apps commercially, you just don't get some of the pro features (advanced shaders etc). They also recently announced free publishing to iOS and Android with no costs attached. It's only if you want the pro version features that you need to purchase the license (or if you are making more than $100,000 a year at which point I doubt the $1,500 price tag would be a big deal).
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MikeMax
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 19:37 Edited at: 16th Jun 2013 19:43
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ok good news for others. but still too complicated to make simple 3D games (and strangely all the unity games we see on stores are all done with the same libraries/controllers, same physics etc... and it's quickly annoying... :p). Don't give a "all is ready done" tool to anyone ... you will have a lot of crappy games... Games doesn't rely only on the dev tool ...

And if i want a very efficient engine for a big commercial game, i will take a real professionnal engine : UDK.

AGK is perfect for Rapid 3D development (with a good quality). And a lot of people need only this (check ALL other crossplatforms "2D" products forums). Only AppGameKit do this with a good set of 3D commands and such a proven 3D dev experience.



Edit : After checking the Unity "Free" and Pro features ... you are very limited in a lot of ways with free version ...


.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:27
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The reason AppGameKit started on 3D was because there was huge demand for it in this forum. It isn't a case of gimmicks, it's trying to give the users what they want. Perhaps there has been a loss of focus whilst doing this.

As someone who intensely dislikes most 2D games, I can't quite see what other 2D features AppGameKit lacked apart from a third dimension!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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kaband
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 00:02
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I would be more than willing to back a kickstarter and/or pay for an upgrade. I think its way past due to be honest. You can't afford to keep developing a product if you don't bring in revenue.

But before I back it, I would want a promise of focus (see Digital Awakenings post). Stop spreading yourself so thin and focus on a single product. The recent updates and efforts for AppGameKit have been great. I can see you guys pushing out updates, adding documentation etc. Stay focused, turn AppGameKit into the incredible product that I know you are capable of making and take my money!!
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 09:08
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I like where AppGameKit is going right now, but it is very slow. What happened to making the IDE and maybe the compiler open source?

A Kickstarter campaign requires quite a lot publicity and word of mouth to work. I think it will also be hard to kickstart an existing commercial product. And I consider AppGameKit as quite unknown right now since it hasn't backed any indie projects like Ouya, Spine/Spriter etc. Things that the indie community are interested in and are using. TGC really need to reach outside it's own community.

I do not see why AppGameKit doesn't have different pricing for different versions like similar software. PC+Mac $49, iOS+Andorid $99 and 3D $149. Raise the price for the current version to $99. All platforms + basic 3D. Everyone who have already bought AppGameKit gets this. Make an introductory version at $49 that works on PC and Mac, so that new users can get started and try it out. For those that want more advanced 3D features you make the $149 version.

Quote: "The reason AppGameKit started on 3D was because there was huge demand for it in this forum. It isn't a case of gimmicks, it's trying to give the users what they want. Perhaps there has been a loss of focus whilst doing this."


I do not consider 3D as a gimmick. The motion control stuff is. And it's technology that most end user do not even have.

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Zwarteziel
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 11:10 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 11:11
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Quote: "I like where AppGameKit is going right now, but it is very slow. What happened to making the IDE and maybe the compiler open source?"


I remember this possibility was recently raised by Rick V. in the survey-thread. I'm not sure if it is seriously being contemplated, but I would certainly welcome an initiative that can lead to an upgrade of the current IDE.

Quote: "
A Kickstarter campaign requires quite a lot publicity and word of mouth to work. I think it will also be hard to kickstart an existing commercial product. And I consider AppGameKit as quite unknown right now since it hasn't backed any indie projects like Ouya, Spine/Spriter etc. Things that the indie community are interested in and are using. TGC really need to reach outside it's own community."


These are some of my concerns as well, though it depends on the amount of money TGC want to raise. If a sum like FPSC-Reloaded is the goal, a continuous momentum is required during the campaign. That's quite hard these days, since AppGameKit is - like all languages - a bit of a niche-product. The most successful campaigns (it seems) require quite a lot of well-written and engaging updates, that not only reach current backers, but 'trickle down' continually to sites and forums where potential backers reside. I myself am not familiar with those, but I think you raise a good point about reaching out to indie-products like Ouya, Spine and Light Table etc.. (or rather, their equivalents). These are complimentary products that would work well alongside AGK. Backers of these initiatives would like to know about AGK.
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XanthorXIII
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 07:36
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If I donate to Kickstarter can one of the Tiers be a Boss T-Shirt with the AppGameKit Logo or something to that effect? I would love one that is 60% Polyester / 40% Cotton.
By the way, if you guys haven't seen the new documentation I would encourage looking at it. Lee/Paul/Rick are really doing a fantastic job on this and if we need to do a kickstarter then we need to do one.
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ACKohollic
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 18:06
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I really don't like the subscription idea. It would turn me off. Microsoft does that enough with its products and I have no choice in that matter.

Not sure that I would subscribe to an AppGameKit Subscription if that were to come about.

I do however I Love AppGameKit and use it a lot and would be reluctant to have to switch to something else.

I think that the folks at TGC do a great job of producing software that has function and fun. and will always follow there progress as long as they exist as a company and continue to create great products at a good price.

Time will tell where and how ACK moves forward. I wish TGC all the good fortune with there products and there staff.
Great Job Everybody.

This is but one mans option.

Addicted to Coding Kits.
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StevenP
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 22:18 Edited at: 19th Jun 2013 22:20
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I would not be against supporting a kickstarter provided the tiers aren't too expensive.

I like the 3D (I see some people complaining) and I would love to see the promised 108 features added and stable (so the 3D is fully usable.) At that point I am either willing to pay for an upgrade fee for major releases and\or a Kickstarter.

I am against subscription or monthly fees and would just continue using what I have or move to another development platform but I would recommend, after 108 is stable, to create add-ons (additional libraries) that extend the functionality. The price of AppGameKit could stay the same but add-ons could be purchased at an additional cost.

Perhaps a stretch goal could be to create a visual IDE like GameMaker? Perhaps it could output both Tier 1 and Tier 2 code. Even a stretch goal could be to create an add-on that output AppGameKit code from FPS Creator. Just some ideas to expand the audience.

Edited to add: BTW, great work on AppGameKit!
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Mobiius
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 22:40
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Quote: " I would recommend, after 108 is stable, to create add-ons (additional libraries) that extend the functionality."

I've been asking for that since the start. lol

This is my current project, check it out! [href]forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=204576&b=8[/href]
This is my website, check it out! [href]http:\\www.TeamDefiant.co.uk[/href]
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Naphier
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Posted: 19th Jun 2013 22:49
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Quote: "I would recommend, after 108 is stable, to create add-ons (additional libraries) that extend the functionality."

I third this.

Napland Games Facebook Twitter Blog
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XanthorXIII
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 01:42
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Well maybe that is what TGC should do. Break up the components of AppGameKit into separate libraries so that all you would need to do is load the modules you want.
Want 2D? Load 2DAGK.lib etc etc..
But you have to have CoreAGK.lib loaded for every program so that it ties it together.
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 02:02
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Someone can explain me what is a "Kickstarter"?
Anyway i would be proud to help the team in any way, money or other.

Long life to Steve!
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MikeMax
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 04:33 Edited at: 20th Jun 2013 04:35
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Gekko : http://www.kickstarter.com/hello?ref=nav


I don't think we have to "split" AppGameKit into several libraries. All-in-one product prevents a lot of problems, dependancies etc... etc ... a monthly fee it's not also a solution. As indie developpers (or amateurs), sometimes we have no time to code during several weeks ... it would be quickly complicated to manage fairly these fees.

Maybe an annual fee to have the right to download updates would be better ? AppGameKit updates require a lot of work. And work is not free. TGC is working hard and need to eat :p

.
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 11:15 Edited at: 20th Jun 2013 17:36
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Hmmmm, and what this kind of money collecting will produce (in good and in bad) for TGC or AppGameKit?
I think is a good thing, Or not??

I would do this on AppGameKit if it was mine product:
- LibAGK / LibFB / LibTwit (Lib splitting everywhere i can split)
- 99$ unique cost
- Only Tier 2
- Updates with 19$ fixed each 6 month
- A central server where give other services to the users (database, leaderboards, etc.)

Well i have many other ideas, but i don't wanna bother.


Long life to Steve!
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MikeMax
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 12:00
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LibCamera,LibFB,LibNetwork,LibTwitter,LibAds,LibFile,Lib2D,Lib3D,LibShaders, LibInput ? :p... (i'll spare you the management of each lib version ...)

Come on Gekko ... Keep AppGameKit simple as it must be ! :p This Kind of structure is just annoying for everyone

To have the ability to deactivate some parts before compilation to reduce binary size and loading times, ok .... but giving more functions to the wealthiest people is not very cool ...
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basjak
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Posted: 20th Jun 2013 14:24 Edited at: 20th Jun 2013 16:06
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I love TGC and their products but I will not be backing any kickstarter projects. not because of greed or anything from that.

other problem is that I don't feel that TGC are looking for investors.
so, i will only invest in a product if i liked it but I will not wait for kickstater to get succeeded. by that time we are one year behind.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 00:54 Edited at: 21st Jun 2013 01:45
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I am not against paying $10 every year for updates. For new users a year or two included in the price. And if you don't pay, you can still use what you got. If you don't renew your subscription it's $15 to get back in, and then $10 per year.

One problem with a Kickstarter is what do you do once those funds are gone?

Before you do anything I think you have to fulfill your promises regarding 108 (or is it 109?) to not upset any current users.

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Lost Dragon
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 05:10 Edited at: 21st Jun 2013 05:59
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I edited this over and over and got less grumpy as I finally figured out the function I was working on.

You know what would really get me excited about a Kickstarter? A campaign that would fund excellent documentation with GOOD, compilable examples for every single command - updated regularly and kept up to date with the latest version. Now that I would pay extra for. How many hours have I have wasted having to go to the forum for an answer (thank goodness for search) when the help command was of no help at all?

Promise that with your KS and I'll donate. That is the sort of thing I'm interested in. I don't care about HTML5.

I just use AppGameKit to publish to Mac and Windows desktops. That is what I want my game on. Android and iPhone is just a bonus for me.
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basjak
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 11:41
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am with digital awakening, I don't mind paying for extra pluggins.

but I still don't see it right for going KS after the AppGameKit is launched. it like telling us that the product might fail if you don't support.

so, this is a wrong business strategy to try to grab people emotions rather than focusing on the market.

go out and look for investors who would advertise things properly. rather than following people in the forum who most of them young and still asking their parents for money.

actually I wanted AppGameKit for HTML5 more than anything else. but never mind, it's good to deploy things multiplatform.

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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 12:08
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Tell me if iam wrong?

But aint html5 extremely limited still for multi platform development?

I have read toons of post that open gl in html 5 is not even on par with the open gl agk now uses?

Its about how far they have implemented open gl in to it so far.

And its slower then many other languages on mobiles with advanced games.

And you have to do alot of extra work everytime you want to use html5 for Another hardware then developed for.

The goal for html5 looks great but they have a long road ahead.

Its atleast the impression you get when looking at development forums.

html5 seams to be the solution for webbrowser games but not much else when it comes to performance.

This is some questions and not an statement

Android 2.3 , ZTE Skate , 480x800 , 800 mhz , Samsung Galaxy Y , 240x320 , 832 mhz , Sony ericson arc 480x854 , 1 ghz
Android 4.0 , Dmtech 3g 9738B , 1024x768 , 9.7 inches , 1.2 ghz
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 21st Jun 2013 15:14
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In fact i don't want HTML, i hate it.
I already done in the past games and "Virtual Desktop" for Javascript and Canvas.
FB tried to stole my system and i closed all coding on that things and deleted it from everywhere on the net.
I have some big project for HTML5 that i will convert in c++.
Bhaaa, HTML IMHO must be not supported in AGK.
Is stupid to use HTML and Javascript in a device with a native possibility of coding.

I want more low level functions and professional way of coding, not WEB HTML.
Sorry for my english.



Long life to Steve!
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