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Geek Culture / Genetic Cars

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Libervurto
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Posted: 1st Jul 2013 20:55
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http://rednuht.org/genetic_cars_2/

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 00:03
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Okay, this is seriously epic.

Generation 32 for me so far, they're getting better!
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Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 00:49 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2013 00:51
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It's a shame that it's quite hard to follow some of the more interesting ones, because they don't always perform well. I had one that almost walked using one wheel and a spike that poked it back onto the wheel.

I have one going now that is the first to get over 200m for me. It does a neat "trick" where if the hill is too steep it flips over onto its back wheel and "climbs" over using the extra height. Of course it's not perfect but it's an interesting skill to have occurred randomly.

Very mesmerising! I should link to Scott Manley, he's how I found out about this thing. He does youtube videos on various interesting and quirky games, and a bit of science among other things (he is an astronomer).
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 00:59
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Haha he seems to have cool stuff; I'll have to check him out.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 01:40
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The car thing is good, but I would like to see more AI involved. Football, or fighting would be interesting.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 01:43
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Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the simulation? I mean, intelligence itself is something that evolved with genetics, which is exactly what this simulation is trying to show. I mean, I guess cars evolving skills to avoid collisions would be pretty cool.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 01:56
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No the intelligence would evolve. The car thing has no intelligence to evolve, just collision detection, and speed.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 01:59
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Ah, I gotcha. That would indeed be cool!
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Indicium
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 02:24
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And before you know it, it's bombing cities from space.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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swissolo
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 02:26 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2013 02:27
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Doesn't work for me is it IE causing it?

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Interstellar
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 02:27
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Go away
Please don't hurt us
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Indicium
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 02:28
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IE hasn't discovered HTML5 yet.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 02:30
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MS should shove IE up their rear ends
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Phaelax
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 13:21
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I forgot I left the simulation running yesterday, woke up just now to generation 986.

So far, I'm not impressed. In nearly a thousand generations, hardly anything has changed. Slightly larger front wheel and higher density, but that's about it. Typically, the only way it's made it passed the tricky terrain parts is if it was going faster enough to just bounce right over it.

30th generation reached about 200m, top distance is 223m at 659th. That's nearly 350 generations without progress; bunch 'o inbred cars!

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Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2013 16:26
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Quote: "Doesn't work for me is it IE causing it?"

IE is only good for downloading other browsers.

It runs pretty poorly in Opera, but much better in Chrome. I haven't tried it in Firefox. I don't know what's up with Opera, it seems to be degrading/failing to keep up. Annoying, because I quite like it.
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 00:00
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IE9+ supports the HTML5 2D canvas, but not 3D.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 17:55
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Still running, on generation 2698 with a max distance of 491 (gen 1456)

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 18:11 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2013 18:15
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I don't think it's going to improve a lot, it's not as sophisticated as some Neural Networks. It's just...

Scale the body.
Scale the wheels.
Change the speed.
Remember the best.

I suppose the wheels are missing some advantages that you could use like Mars explorers. Rotating 3 wheels etc.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 18:52 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2013 18:56
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@Phaelax - is that with the default track? Because there is a huge ditch at around 200m that looks untraversable to me.

He released the code if you want to muck about with it: https://github.com/red42/HTML5_Genetic_Cars
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 19:10
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Im guessing that each persons default track is generated diffirently since they probably get some seed based on time. Perhaps we should all chose one seed that we all use
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Libervurto
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 20:59
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I've noticed that when little progress is being made, the cars develop "horns", this makes me think the distance travelled is determined by the position of the furthest vertex. So they are growing horns to stretch that little bit further.

I might look into the code and see if I can improve anything. It seems a bit too random to get a smooth progression.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 22:04 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2013 22:04
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I was going to make a version with pistons for hopping wheels like mountain biking. That's just an idea that you could put in.

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Matty H
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 22:07
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Quote: "I've noticed that when little progress is being made, the cars develop "horns", this makes me think the distance travelled is determined by the position of the furthest vertex. So they are growing horns to stretch that little bit further."


Pincho is giving this a hard time but growing horns is pretty amazing. I ran around 40 generations and watched almost all of it, it strangely addictive

Part of the genius is not the complexity but the simplicity, and displaying it in a format which is fun to watch.

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 22:09
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my cars seems to becoming worse and worse... generation 28 - and they cant get past like 20 meters, 20 generations ago, they went to 140 meters...



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 22:19 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2013 22:25
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Quote: "Pincho is giving this a hard time but growing horns is pretty amazing."


Well I suppose that these programs do surprise people. It's a bit of a Stag Beetle analogy in a way. And the car does use instability just like the Stag Beetle. So not a bad thing that it has a comparison with nature. The only reason I criticise it is because it is very old now (the original version is very old), and things have become more complex than this.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2013 23:44
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Quote: "my cars seems to becoming worse and worse... generation 28 - and they cant get past like 20 meters, 20 generations ago, they went to 140 meters..."


I have had that happen once or twice aswell, I usualy just restart the map then though.

The horns are pretty interesting as they show us that even though they have no particular use, they remain in the cars for no aparent reason just because they don't harm the performance in the particular map.

It would be pretty cool if the cars remained but new maps where genertated each run since these cars specialise in one map making them get stuck at the same hole every time.
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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 00:20
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having new maps would also make it so you dont have to start over, as soon as they hit a impassable hole



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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 00:21
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Quote: "The horns are pretty interesting as they show us that even though they have no particular use, they remain in the cars for no aparent reason just because they don't harm the performance in the particular map."


They have a use, they stick out to add distance, like when a runner bends their head forward at the finish line.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 00:26
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Here's a real life version. This seems pretty random to me...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23809-cockatoo-cracks-lock-with-no-prior-training.html#.UdSWlaywWp0

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Indicium
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 00:46
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Are the horns not changing the weight balance in any way?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 01:01
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they probably are, and atleast to me - the horns didnt stick out any, they pretty much stuck the same lenght as the body



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Indicium
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 01:49
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What are the elite clones, btw?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Burger
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 07:02
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I left this going all day and got to 2200 generations. However, a car from generation 490 was still number 7 of all time. In 1700 generations, only 1.7m were advanced. I used the seed 'easy', too.

- An Instinctive Fear IndieDB page, download demo today!
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Phaelax
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 08:11
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I've had this running for about 2 days now and it's getting slower I think. First 2000 within a day, but over the last day I've only reached 2753 at this point. Considering it's been several hours since my last post, that's only 55 generations since then.

Here's my top 10 so far. The track looks pretty messed up and impassable after awhile.


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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 15:19
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This experiment seems to work under the same principles, don't know if the two are related. The 'evolution' seems slightly more efficient, too - although it does show each car one by one.

'What the bloody hell is going on?'
-Desmond, 'Lost'
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Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 16:37
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The elite clones are direct copies of the best n cars, without any mutation.

That's something I don't like about this, because it's counter-productive. It locks the best designs and waits for something else to randomly surpass them. The problem is that mutations are randomized, not incremental; it would be better if the amplitude of mutations was limited based on the current state as a centre point. That way you'd get smoother more gradual changes rather than just randomizing things that don't work.
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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 16:47
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the link that insert name here provided.. I find it cool - because the "cars" can be destroyed.. but it's COMPLETLY random, and doesnt improve in any aspect - thus... it becomes booring - as 98% of all the cars, will implode upon hitting the ground, or be destroyed within 20 meters



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The Zoq2
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 17:39
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Quote: "That's something I don't like about this, because it's counter-productive. It locks the best designs and waits for something else to randomly surpass them. The problem is that mutations are randomized, not incremental; it would be better if the amplitude of mutations was limited based on the current state as a centre point. That way you'd get smoother more gradual changes rather than just randomizing things that don't work"


That's how evolution works, something gets mutated randomly, most of the time it's bad or neutral, but sometimes it's actually something good and that get's carried over to new generations which then muatate
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 17:57 Edited at: 4th Jul 2013 17:58
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Quote: "That's how evolution works, something gets mutated randomly, most of the time it's bad or neutral, but sometimes it's actually something good and that get's carried over to new generations which then muatate "


Evolution isn't a complete theory yet. There are different ideas out there. Some people are anti-mutation.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 18:40 Edited at: 4th Jul 2013 18:46
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Quote: "Evolution isn't a complete theory yet. There are different ideas out there. Some people are anti-mutation."


Wait, what? I understand that there are some competing theories regarding things like punctuated equilibrium, etc., but mutation is unequivocal fact. It's even been directly observed in the laboratory. Mutation is pretty much the cornerstone of evolution, which without it would make no sense.

"Sideboobs are awesome. Getting punched in the face is not." - Jerico2Day on violence and nudity
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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 18:47
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pincho - that comment made sense and was a fine arguement, until you went..
Quote: "Some people are anti-mutation"


.. there



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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 18:52
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Quote: "Wait, what? I understand that there are some competing theories regarding things like punctuated equilibrium, etc., but mutation is unequivocal fact. It's even been directly observed in the laboratory (and of course, the fact that organisms can be bred to retain certain traits while shedding others). Mutation is pretty much the cornerstone of evolution, which without it would make no sense."


At the same time though scientists do not believe in randomness, so there is a contradiction anyway. You can never be sure of what you are seeing from our scale.

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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 18:57
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mutations arent all that random, I mean - at times it is. Quite often really.. But here - in this very specific chat, we are talking about mutations, that are a direct reaction to ones enviroment, developing traits - that's gonna help you survive in that nature.
Take the distincitveness of humans, some have darker skins - which is a direct result of living where the sun shines alot - thus, making the skin more resistant to that.


Mutations may be random, someone might be born with say different eyecolors, just because the dna felt like pfthasdhf why not? lol.

but, quite often mutations DO have a reason.



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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 18:59 Edited at: 4th Jul 2013 19:01
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Quote: "At the same time though scientists do not believe in randomness, so there is a contradiction anyway. You can never be sure of what you are seeing from our scale."


I'm unsure what you mean by using the word 'scientists' to such a broad degree - who exactly do you mean? I'm sure there are a good proportion of scientists who believe in randomness, after all, the decay of radioactive isotopes is random (to my knowledge). The probability of decay is calculable, but the actual decay is still entirely random.

Quote: "but, quite often mutations DO have a reason."

Gonna have to disagree with you here - mutations are random by definition (okay they're not caused randomly but you know what I mean) - it's the survival of useful mutations that isn't random. But there is no more likelihood that a creature that needs to reach tall trees is going to be born with a longer neck, it's just the ones that are will stick around.

'What the bloody hell is going on?'
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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 19:03 Edited at: 4th Jul 2013 19:04
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fair enough INH, fair enough. What you said is what I wanted across, so thank you for correcting me and clarifying

edit: your name is too annoying to type out.. i'm just gonna call you INH... or something like that XD



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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 19:07 Edited at: 4th Jul 2013 19:10
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Quote: "At the same time though scientists do not believe in randomness"


Regardless of whether scientists (who?) believe in randomness or not, the effects that cause mutation are (for all purposes) random.

Anyway, we probably shouldn't be discussing this because the AUP for some reason bans discussion in this area (perhaps because it offends the creationists).

"Sideboobs are awesome. Getting punched in the face is not." - Jerico2Day on violence and nudity
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 19:09
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Quote: "fair enough INH, fair enough. What you said is what I wanted across, so thank you for correcting me and clarifying

edit: your name is too annoying to type out.. i'm just gonna call you INH... or something like that XD"

Deal.

I'm gonna have to try and resist this topic a bit because I love the whole idea of natural selection and evolution, and I find the whole history of it fascinating - from Lamarck's theories about gaining complexity, and the current debate between gradualism and punctuated equilibrium. It's a great topic to do some hobby biologist work about because it's so broad and yet the core idea is so logical and simple.

'What the bloody hell is going on?'
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 19:13 Edited at: 4th Jul 2013 19:16
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I believe in mutations. I'm just saying that scientists often argue against me when I use the word mutations. Mind you that was ages ago, about 2005. Maybe they changed their minds?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 19:23 Edited at: 4th Jul 2013 19:25
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Quote: "That's how evolution works, something gets mutated randomly, most of the time it's bad or neutral, but sometimes it's actually something good and that get's carried over to new generations which then muatate"

Yes, genetic mutation is random but within a certain amplitude or range of difference. Conversely, with the genetic cars, it appears that if an element is mutated it is assigned a completely random new value that has no relation to the previous value.
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 4th Jul 2013 19:24
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Quote: "I'm just saying that scientists often argue against me when I use the word mutations. Mind you that was ages ago, about 2005. Maybe they changed their minds?"

Who are you talking about

'What the bloody hell is going on?'
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