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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Ad Block Campaign to Spread the Word

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TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 28th Aug 2013 12:29
mr Handy
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 12:57 Edited at: 28th Aug 2013 13:08
By the way, you are able to NOT watch TV ads by:
- switching channel
- mute channel
- turn off the TV
- walking to the toilet
- walking to the kitchen and bring some food/beer
And now this is illegal?
Like someone may say 'you must watch ads because they are excluded from your subscription fee'

Quote: "Since I installed the DoNotTrackMe add-on for firefox, I don't get ads on here any more."

AFAIK this thing only makes ads non personal, i.e. not using your search and other private data.

Ortu
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 16:40
the advertising business models beween web and tv are quite different and not really comparable.

in tv, channels sell ad time to the advertiser, and are paid upfront whether anyone sees the ad or not. it doesnt matter if you watch or skip, the time block was sold and paid for.

on web, channels are only paid per view or per click, not upfront, and so it really does matter whether you watch or skip.

each model has certain pros and cons for each party involved: advertiser, content provider, viewer. each party has different interests and no model will work 'best' for all three groups at the same time, certainly neither of he current ones.

i dont use ad block, and wont, but i think the more productive route, rather than just blocking ads wholesale, is to work out a better model that can better satisfy the primary interests of each party.

viewers dont want to be spammed, dont want to worry about hidden malicious content and dont want to jump through hoops to get to the content they came to see.

content providers want compensation for what they are doing, but often dont produce a product to sell or produce enough content at a regular frequency to be successful on subscriptions.

advertisers want thier products and services to be seen and purchased and need some way to determine the effectiveness of an ad.

so my question is, how do you come to reasonable compromise between these interests? everyone needs to make some concessions for a system as a whole to be successful. viewers will have to be exposed to some ads, advertisers and/or content providers will have to do more to provide safe and relevant ads, content providers will have to devise better ways of delivering ads without burdening users.

it is all a tricky act to balance and i dont think there are any quick and easy solutions, and that includes adblock.

But will it blend?
Libervurto
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 16:42 Edited at: 28th Aug 2013 16:44
@comet — Thanks. I should hire you to do web searches for me.

Quote: "Due to alleged concerns about click fraud, Google AdSense has been criticized by some search engine optimization firms as a large source of what Google calls "invalid clicks", in which one company clicks on a rival's search engine advertisements to drive up the other company's costs.[23]

To help prevent click fraud, AdSense publishers can choose from a number of click-tracking programs.[citation needed] These programs display detailed information about the visitors who click on the AdSense advertisements. Publishers can use this to determine whether or not they have been a victim of click fraud. There are a number of commercial tracking scripts available for purchase."

This whole system sounds inherently flawed.

Okay, I have whitelisted TGC on AdBlocker, but I'm not willing to allow these other programs to track me. These tracking programs are just like the person who steals food from the supermarket. They don't ask for permission to take all this market research data, they don't pay you for giving your data, they just take it like they are entitled to it.

Now that I have opted out of this arrangement, should I be banned from the forum?

Why does TGC need personalized ads anyway? This is a geek/hacker site, so it should be pretty obvious what sort of stuff to advertise here. Or am I missing something here?



Formerly OBese87.
The Zoq2
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 16:48
Quote: "Youtube doesn't have the right to deny you access to their website if you block their content, they only have the right to deny you certain services (like ban your account, or remove your videos)."


I doubt they are not forced by law to provide everyone equal access to their website.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Ortu
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 16:54 Edited at: 28th Aug 2013 17:19
i dont think TGC are using adsense so much because they want to give personalized ads, but rather because adsense is quite standardized and very easy to implement. it doesnt require that they go out and get avertisers. it is a ready made solution to monetize on advertising without much effort or expense.

this goes back to my point of content providers needing to do more to deliver ads without burdening users.

But will it blend?
TheComet
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 17:11 Edited at: 28th Aug 2013 17:13
Quote: "This whole system sounds inherently flawed."


Yeah, because AdBlock allows click fraud to work again. Not that clicking ads while blocking them makes much sense, but it still triggers a click for the provider.

Quote: "Why does TGC need personalized ads anyway? This is a geek/hacker site, so it should be pretty obvious what sort of stuff to advertise here. Or am I missing something here?"


We should have a troll-week to tip off all of the ad trackers.

TheComet

mr Handy
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 21:31
Just gunna reiterate. The only thing worse than getting spammed with ads relevant to my interests is getting spammed with ads that aren't.
Chris Tate
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 22:04 Edited at: 28th Aug 2013 22:06
Isn't it interesting how enthusiastic the majority are in the debate against:

Quote: "
getting spammed with ads"


I wonder what it would be like to be shown a 15 second advert before drawing cash out of a cash machine; are not internet users limited with time?

I wonder what it would be like to be shown adverts between pages of book novels you pay for; are not internet users paying for access to information?

I think any web service in need of cash, should charge for access to their service; then they would not need cash, nor ads. If no one would be willing to pay for the service if they charged, is that service any good?

I really don't mind good adverts; I love some of them for their pizazz and humour. I seldom buy from an advert, unless it is a movie trailer. I also don't mind banners, and often use my No-AdBlock PC when chilling.

what ticks me off are these scams, trojans, big buttons with no-good schemer links and dreadful adverts that dominate the internet. No I do not want larger breasts, and no I do not want to lose weight!

Libervurto
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 22:47
Quote: "I think any web service in need of cash, should charge for access to their service; then they would not need cash, nor ads. If no one would be willing to pay for the service if they charged, is that service any good?"

That is so true.

There are two realistic options:
1. Make your site freely accessible and fund it via ads and/or donations, but accept that some people will block the ads.
2. Restrict access to parts of your site to paying members.

For example, New Scientist show a fragment of their articles to anyone, but to read more you need to subscribe.

I had a look at subbable.com but it looks like only four youtube channels are part of that.



Formerly OBese87.
mr Handy
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Posted: 28th Aug 2013 23:30
Quote: "but accept that some people will block the ads."

Speaking of "some people", where is the statistic on how many people use AdBlock on Youtube?

NIlooc223
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Posted: 29th Aug 2013 00:40
Doesn't youtube get paid by the advertisers? YouTube probably gets prepaid to put the ads on there (the video ads) just like normal commercials. Normal commercials pay the TV station a center amount to put there commercial on. They don't pay per view. Wouldn't it be the same for a youtube commercial?
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 29th Aug 2013 00:47
It runs through Google Adsense, so it likely uses the same system as other sites do, i.e, Pay Per View.
easter bunny
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Posted: 29th Aug 2013 04:16 Edited at: 29th Aug 2013 05:30
I don't really find any problem with using an ad blocker because I never click on ads anyway.

But just in case, I've disabled ad blocking for TGC Forum

edit: bet no ad blocker blocks my sig


The NEW, awesomest app on Google Play
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 29th Aug 2013 04:20
Youtube pre-video ads count by views, not clicks.
bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Sep 2013 14:44 Edited at: 9th Sep 2013 14:46
Quote: " on web, channels are only paid per view or per click, not upfront, and so it really does matter whether you watch or skip."


Uh... only if you're name is google (or a google clone).

There are a number of services a website owner could go to to get upfront advertising.

In fact, with such a scheme, adblock wouldn't even work. TGC would directly display the advert to the visitor, and unless the visitor blocks TGC itself, they would see the ad. It's akin to the ad at the very bottom of this page. It also removes any pesky tracking issues and privacy issues (unless the website owner sells that info)

So yes, it can be done to make money without google, and with adblockers installed.

Quite frankly, if you can't make money doing what you do, then you're probably not doing anything useful anyway. If a website can't make money displaying google ads to visitors, then they need to change what they are doing.

Phaelax
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Posted: 9th Sep 2013 15:37
Quote: "Youtube doesn't have the right to deny you access to their website if you block their content"


I'd have to disagree. While anything on the internet is inherently public for the most part, it still belongs to the creator and I feel they have the right to do whatever they want with it. If Youtube wanted to block certain users I'm in full support of their right to do so. Just as I'm in full support of FB's rights if they suddenly decided one day to delete all their user content. (of course such a move would kill their business) It's kind of like the first amendment in way; While I don't like what you have to say, I defend your right to say it.

Quik
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Posted: 9th Sep 2013 19:36
and here i was hoping i read it wrong, and you were actually linking to smething that wanted to RID of Adblock...

Sadly - that was not the case.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 18:45
Sorry to res the thread, but now I'm going to reinstall AdBlock:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/5/4496852/adblock-plus-eye-google-whitelist
mr Handy
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 19:01
@CoffeeGrunt, ABP is a known "traitor", so only AB is still good.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 21:26
Quote: "Youtube pre-video ads count by views, not clicks. "

Actually both count, clicks are worth slightly more than views. And if you watch to the end, that's worth more than skipping.

I should say right away, I think ad-block is inherently immoral, in the same way that I think piracy is immoral. BiggAdd is right, you can make however many arguments for why adverts are annoying but in the end it all comes down to a sense of entitlement. To compare it to TV advertising, or indeed any other kind of advertising, is meaningless, because TV advertising is paid in full, by the advertiser, for a set sum regardless of how many people actually view the advert, whereas adSense pays per view/click. Therefore if people choose to publish their content on the grounds that you view an advert before consuming it, that's their right, and you have no right to choose to ignore that (and, in my opinion, that should really be illegal although I have no idea how you would ever enforce that).

Having said that, I don't actually thing internet advertising is a good thing. My experience is mainly with youtube but the idea applies everywhere. Essentially, adSense based advertising values the size of audience over everything else - whether you;re watching a highly detailed short film, an education video or a silly vid of a kitten, number of views is the absolute most important thing, and therefore any emphasis on community disappears. Using this system, a highly loyal but small viewerbase is worth far less than a sporadic but large audience, which puts far too much power in the hands of the advertisers and far too little power in the hands of the content creators.

That's why I think subbable.com is such an interesting idea - it allows for what people have been saying a long time, they would rather pay a small subscription fee and watch the content without ads. This gives those people an opportunity to put their money where their mouth is, and allows the created content to be judged on its quality and viewer loyalty as opposed to its ability to whore itself out for cheap views.

'What the bloody hell is going on?'
-Desmond, 'Lost'
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 22:22
I feel the issue is with the system of advertising used, then. If it creates so much aggro and distaste, improve it. It's like if we stuck with those sweeteners with an aftertaste like old pennies and ash, then if anyone complained some people would appear and yell, "You want taste? Eat a cake then, greedy fatty!"

I want awesome people I check up on the internet to get money, ones that spring to mind being Escapist, Cracked, Youtubers I like, etc, etc.

Thing is, with Adblock pushing a different system, maybe we'll see less Linkbait material spamming the internet - especially from the Daily Mail.
mr Handy
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 22:37 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 22:42
edit: reply for @Insert Name Here

Will you let in your house a Kirby seller, Jehovah's Witnesses or other "advertising" people?
Yes of course! You say that it is illegal to not to let them in. They earn money by visits.

The purpose of the ad is to make you want to buy their crap or service. I never buy/need all that crap from web ads. Never. So why I should even see that?

The only ads that have right to be seen - it is the ads of goods on web-shop sites (like a sign near the shop in real life, or today's menu near the coffee shop). You visit that sites only for target purpose - buy something. And you are interested in offers.

Quik
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 23:02
Quote: "
I want awesome people I check up on the internet to get money, ones that spring to mind being Escapist, Cracked, Youtubers I like, etc, etc.
"


I want cool stores to get money, like game - or some random cool grocery store
the rest, i just steal from.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 23:28
I'm not actually removing stock from them. Don't try to so bluntly label me a criminal, Quik.

I only look up sites I like, therefore I'd like them to get money they need to continue existing, in a way that keeps them being nice and fun to look at.
Quik
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 23:39
Quote: "I'm not actually removing stock from them. Don't try to so bluntly label me a criminal, Quik."


fair enough, somewhat. But - hey, you know what - I do label Ad block in the same label group as piracy.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
BiggAdd
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 23:50
Quote: "Will you let in your house a Kirby seller, Jehovah's Witnesses or other "advertising" people?
Yes of course! You say that it is illegal to not to let them in. They earn money by visits."


Your argument is invalid because you aren't receiving a service from a Kirby seller of a Jehovah's Witness that you have opted in for, they are turning up at your door unannounced.

Your argument is like saying you are reading a book in your front room and then all of a sudden a screen appears in front of you with a website full of ads.


There is no valid argument for AdBlock. It just boils down to you wanting something for nothing.

Quik
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 23:52
Quote: "There is no valid argument for AdBlock. It just boils down to you wanting something for nothing."


This.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
AgentSam
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2013 00:33 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2013 00:33
MissJoJo wrote:

Quote: "bet no ad blocker blocks my sig"


@MissJoJo:

[Reference Image]

What sig?

Cheers,
AgentSam

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mr Handy
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2013 01:31 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2013 01:37
@Quik
Quote: "There is no valid argument for AdBlock. It just boils down to you wanting something for nothing."

There are two types of things in web - paid and free. Pirated content is originally paid content so I don't take it in count. Youtube is free.

Here is part of Youtube license (Russian version translation by Google Translate (altered in bold)):
Quote: "8. Your licensed rights
8.1 When loading or posting content on YouTube you provide:
...
B. to each user the Service a non-exclusive, royalty-free license for the territory of the Russian Federation and other countries of the world to access your Content through the Service, as well as the use of your Content, and in particular, the rights of reproduction, distribution, processing, or create derivative works from it, publicly display , available to the public, and the public performance of such Content to the extent that this is permitted functionality of the Service and these Terms and Conditions."


Also why are you protecting porn ads/phishing ads/viral ads? Are you a advertiser? Oh, that now makes sense.

Anyway this thread is senseless as people here are members of cartoon Justice League.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2013 01:55 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2013 01:56
Quote: "Will you let in your house a Kirby seller, Jehovah's Witnesses or other "advertising" people?
Yes of course! You say that it is illegal to not to let them in. They earn money by visits."

No, sorry that's rubbish. I'm not getting a service from these people, their entire purpose is purely to advertise. I wouldn't go to Youtube just to watch adverts. Please think through what you are saying.
Edit: Also to my knowledge, Jehovah's witnesses aren't paid a fee per conversion. My mate Paul is one, and I think he gets a flat wage from the church. I could be wrong though

Quote: "There are two types of things in web - paid and free. Pirated content is originally paid content so I don't take it in count. Youtube is free."

I'm sorry I didn't realise you were lord high king of the internet? There can be as many different kinds of content as you want, defined by whatever parameters you can imagine.

Quote: "porn ads/phishing ads/viral ads"

Also, this is an important point - why do you assume all adverts are either for porn or phishing? Right now on Youtube I'm watching an advert for specsavers. Pretty morally neutral to be honest?

Quote: "Anyway this thread is senseless as people here are members of cartoon Justice League"

Let's take this all down to earth a bit. No one can stop you using ad-block, in the same way no one can stop you pirating. And to be honest, that's a good thing - how much control do we want the authorities to have over the internet? The David Cameron vs Porn fiasco in the UK proves this. But we can try to convince you it's morally the wrong thing to do. This doesn't make us cartoon superhero wannabes, it just means we believe different things to you about the way the world works.

'What the bloody hell is going on?'
-Desmond, 'Lost'
mr Handy
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2013 02:20
@Insert Name Here
Quote: "There can be as many different kinds of content as you want, defined by whatever parameters you can imagine. "

Of course, I can pay with my Master Card or pay via PayPal. Or not to pay if the content is free. I pay or not pay, there is no third option, unless you count "hacking", "pirating" and "using stolen accounts".

Quote: "Also, this is an important point - why do you assume all adverts are either for porn or phishing? Right now on Youtube I'm watching an advert for specsavers."

In the "what browser..." thread Phealax attacked me with Beams of Justice because of Japanese porn ads. Try to persuade him that it was a mirage!

Quote: "No one can stop you using ad-block,"

I agree...
Quote: "in the same way no one can stop you pirating."

Have you heard about Jails? Courts? Police, maybe? From your statement I can draw a conclusion that you are irresponsible pirate content user.

Quote: "Let's take this all down to earth a bit."

No, I will stay on the moon, you crazy earthlings

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2013 02:49
Quote: "I pay or not pay, there is no third option, unless you count "hacking", "pirating" and "using stolen accounts"."

It seems this binary view of the world is holding you back. Why are you so closed to new ways of content being distributed? Advertising is the third option, and I'm sure there any many more that I haven't heard of. Just because you choose to dismiss it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Quote: "In the "what browser..." thread Phealax attacked me with Beams of Justice because of Japanese porn ads. Try to persuade him that it was a mirage!"

I'm not Phealax, I don't remember that thread, and I don't speak for him. I'm sure he's quite capable of arguing for himself, thank you. Anyway, that's irrelevant, it has nothing do to with your assumption that all adverts are porn ads.

Quote: "Have you heard about Jails? Courts? Police, maybe? From your statement I can draw a conclusion that you are irresponsible pirate content user."


Mmm hmm and exactly what percentage of people who pirate do you think face any of these? 5%? 1%? I reckon it's less. And I don't take kindly to accusations that I am a criminal, no matter how witty you think you might be being.

Quote: "No, I will stay on the moon, you crazy earthlings "

Haha, thank you for being considerate

'What the bloody hell is going on?'
-Desmond, 'Lost'
The Zoq2
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2013 17:25
Quote: "There are two types of things in web - paid and free. Pirated content is originally paid content so I don't take it in count. Youtube is free."


While youtube as a whole might be free, you don't have to pay to go to the site, the people that create videos will earn money from the ads that are tied to the videos which allows them to devote more time and effort to creating them. If the ads wern't there or everyone used adblock they would not be able to put as much work into the videos as they otherwise would. The quality and quantity of the videos would decrease.

The same thing is true for youtube, the videos are technicaly free, blocking the ads with adblock is possible but the revenue from the ads pay for the costs of maintaining the site. If everyone were to block the ads on youtube, the service would probably have to be shut down or become a paid service. Something I think most of us would be pretty pissed of about.

The bottom line is that even though the videos themselves are actually free for you to watch but they cost money to make and that is paid by the ad revenue.

Twitch.tv has a pretty good solution to this issue with the "turbo" program. You can pay a monthly fee to get adfree content on twitch which turns it into a paid service. If you can't or don't want to pay for it directly, watching the ads pay that sum for you.

Quote: "Also why are you protecting porn ads/phishing ads/viral ads?"


I don't know what sites you are on, but most "regular" sites don't have any porn/phishing ads, there are exceptions to that however. The biggest one IMO is the minecraft forums. All the ads on that site are animated banners which often blocks content. All links that go out from the site go thru adf.ly which usually has verry phishy ads where most of them indirectly try to emulate the target site (huge download/play now buttons ect.) This would have been fine if it wasn't a site for a game which a huge part of the audience is young kids who are just trying to download a texturepack but might end up with a virus because of the ads just so the site owners can make some aditional money.

As long as ads are actually marketing something and doing so in a non obtrusive way, im fine with them and they help fund the development of free services. But I do agree that animated/porn/DOWNLOAD NOW ads are crossing the line.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
baxslash
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2013 17:47 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2013 17:47
I'm amazed how long this thread has lasted. I'm not going to comment on who I think is right or wrong here, I'm just going to say there's a fine line on legality here that too many people are willing to cross. The AUP is clear on that and flame wars (which this seams to have been from the start).

For these reasons:

Flame

This thread has been locked due to the unmanageable number of flame responses. Please refer to section 3.11 - 3.12 of the Acceptable Usage Policy for full details:

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?gf=aup#forum

AUP Section 3.17 ...Moderators shall, at their discretion, determine what constitutes a violation of these terms, along with generally accepted netiquette standards, and can take action against those who violate these rules.

If you contributed to the reason for locking, you may now find yourself on moderation, or in extreme cases a ban.

Parragil para o mundo!

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