Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Programming Ethics

Author
Message
Libervurto
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 25th Sep 2013 21:42
Link
I'm currently learning C/C++, and for some motivation I thought I'd have a look at some freelance programming sites and see what sort of things people need doing and work my way towards solving those problems. I was quite surprised by the sheer volume of what I would deem unethical requests; things like spam bots and email scoops.
What do you guys think about this?
Is it not illegal to make these sorts of malicious programs?
Does anyone have any stories about projects you were involved in that you now regret, or that you refused to be part of, for ethical reasons?


Formerly OBese87.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Chris Tate
DBPro Master
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2008
Location: London, England
Posted: 25th Sep 2013 23:35 Edited at: 25th Sep 2013 23:36
Link
It happens; and it happens in other industries, large and small.


People try to get retailers to supply domestic mobile phones so they can illegally drop-ship-sell them abroad.

People try to get venture capitalists to fund A list projects like movies unknown to become Ponzi schemes.

People try to get local small-time graphic designers to 'Photoshop' them fake parking tickets.

People try to buy out a load of bicycle security locks from a retailer so that they can clamp a load of bicycles to be collected later by smugglers.

People try to ask for help with homework on TGC only to get Joe Bloggs, the worlds best DarkBASIC programming champion to do their homework for them.

Fraudulent malicious people! Shame on you!

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
mr Handy
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 26th Sep 2013 00:54
Link
Please watch Live Free or Die Hard (released as Die Hard 4.0 outside North America). It will bring you the joy and the answers. Cheers!

Back to top
Profile PM
Chris Tate
DBPro Master
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2008
Location: London, England
Posted: 26th Sep 2013 01:38
Link
Lol seen it! Very apt.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 26th Sep 2013 13:53
Link
Not with freelance, but a couple of times I've flat refused to add features to systems at work. Like, maybe some things that breach privacy laws, some things that should be done only with the users consent, activity monitoring. Like... adding a log of how much time each user spends playing FreeCell or Solitaire.

It can be tough to convince people to use a new system, it's practically impossible when they think it's something that will just bite them in the ass later. Anything that measures performance, timekeeping, well I avoid it... I hate micro-managers, and hate to encourage them.

But as far as malware goes, I've never been asked, and just wouldn't be part of anything like that. If I ever met a malware programmer, I'd end up knocking teeth out - I often have to deal with people infected laptops etc, and I see first hand just how worrying the fake virus and snooping apps can be to the inexperienced. I put malware programmers in the same league as con-men, muggers, robbers, people who pray on people ignorance and never get caught.

I am the one who knocks...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
baxslash
Valued Member
Bronze Codemaster
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Dec 2006
Location: Duffield
Posted: 26th Sep 2013 14:13
Link
Quote: "If I ever met a malware programmer, I'd end up knocking teeth out - I often have to deal with people infected laptops etc, and I see first hand just how worrying the fake virus and snooping apps can be to the inexperienced. I put malware programmers in the same league as con-men, muggers, robbers, people who pray on people ignorance and never get caught."

I like you more every day Van B

This IS my signature
Back to top
Profile PM Email
TheComet
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 26th Sep 2013 14:45 Edited at: 26th Sep 2013 14:52
Link
But wait, being a malware programmer isn't all bad. If you practice the art of infecting computers, it means your knowledge about security is going to be very high, which is a very good thing if you use it to protect, rather than to destroy.

Malicious programmers are incredibly useful to a lot of software, because their purpose is to uncover holes and point out flaws. Take the Linux kernel for instance; it wouldn't be half as secure if no one had ever tried to attack it.

My point is, you need to know both sides of the equation. So in answer to the OP, it is not ethical if your intentions are to actively harm someone's computer, but I think it's perfectly fine if you write malicious software for your own learning purposes, or to better understand security flaws and how to take advantage of them with the intention to improve security in software.

TheComet

Your horse has been erased by a signature because it was larger than 600x120
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
baxslash
Valued Member
Bronze Codemaster
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Dec 2006
Location: Duffield
Posted: 26th Sep 2013 15:41
Link
Quote: "But wait, being a malware programmer isn't all bad. If you practice the art of infecting computers, it means your knowledge about security is going to be very high, which is a very good thing if you use it to protect, rather than to destroy.

Malicious programmers are incredibly useful to a lot of software, because their purpose is to uncover holes and point out flaws. Take the Linux kernel for instance; it wouldn't be half as secure if no one had ever tried to attack it.

My point is, you need to know both sides of the equation. So in answer to the OP, it is not ethical if your intentions are to actively harm someone's computer, but I think it's perfectly fine if you write malicious software for your own learning purposes, or to better understand security flaws and how to take advantage of them with the intention to improve security in software."

That's fine if that is the intention but people hiring freelancers to write malware are not doing so for those reasons and freelancers writing that sort of software are not either...

Different does not mean not equal: a = b
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Phaelax
DBPro Master
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 27th Sep 2013 04:01
Link
Quote: " Like... adding a log of how much time each user spends playing FreeCell or Solitaire."


It's the company's time on a company computer. The user doesn't have any privacy.

Quote: "Is it not illegal to make these sorts of malicious programs?"

Not that I'm aware of. But if you help make such software, you're likely going to contribute to the future problems that stuff brings to the web. By all means, make them, learn from them, programming is fun. But don't give out the software to anyone.

http://zimnox.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 27th Sep 2013 09:45
Link
Quote: "It's the company's time on a company computer. The user doesn't have any privacy."


Yeah, but the issue I had was that someone has to agree to something like that. It's the same with email, an employer can't do a thing unless they have told the employee that email will be monitored. It's illegal to just spring this stuff on people, they have to be aware that playing too much solitaire is not allowed
Without a proper IT policy in place that people have agreed to, anything like that gets really messy, and really expensive. I've been asked to check peoples internet history after they've been sacked for wasting too much time on it, and because they never agreed to a policy it's impossible to enforce it.

I am the one who knocks...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Phaelax
DBPro Master
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 27th Sep 2013 17:17
Link
There wasn't a policy they agreed to when they started working at the company? Most places make you sign so many things when you first start, such as we can fire you whenever we want without reason.

http://zimnox.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 27th Sep 2013 17:58
Link
Nah, there's the employment contract and handbook, but that hasn't been updated to cover email, internet, or general PC use. Our personnel manager isn't very good

I am the one who knocks...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Chris Tate
DBPro Master
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2008
Location: London, England
Posted: 4th Oct 2013 04:20
Link
Why is solitaire installed at work? Are the colleagues permitted to play it during break times at their desks or something?

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 4th Oct 2013 11:41
Link
Well, the way I see it, it's upto someones manager to decide on that stuff, I leave the games in place because I know what people are like.

I've actually argued this stuff with the managing director. I publicized the password for our internet WiFi so people could use it for their smart phones during breaks, the MD tried to chew me out. I just told him, I know how much time people spend on Facebook, and YouTube etc etc on company time - but if they know that they can access that stuff during their breaks, 3 times a day, they are less inclined to use their work PC for it. Moreover, anyone using the internet on the phone costs the company money, stupid money, and allowing global wifi access would cut that cost down to 0. A couple of months ago, someone accidently disconnected a WiFi repeater, guess who came and complained about his phone bill

Similar standpoint with games... If I deleted Solitaire, someone would get a flash drive and copy games onto it, to bring into work to play those games, including any malware they manage to pick up along the way. I don't see the point in spending time enforcing something, then dealing with the issues that brings, then dealing with the personnel issues after that, all for the sake of being realistic about how people use their work PC, and maybe just a little bit lenient as well of course.

MD should just let me get on with it, instead of trying to micro-manage everything - one day he might learn.

I am the one who knocks...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Chris Tate
DBPro Master
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2008
Location: London, England
Posted: 5th Oct 2013 03:25
Link
You know best; I don't anything about IT admin. I am sure there must be at least one or two guys in these kind of companys installing Skyrim or Farcry or something on some USB drive and playing it during company time in window mode.

I am not allowed to have my mobile phone on me in my warehouse job; even though I keep it on me anyway because I like to access google maps or the search engine to find useful information. The wifi system for the building is never working well.

Quote: "MD should just let me get on with it, instead of trying to micro-manage everything - one day he might learn."


I know the feeling

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Phaelax
DBPro Master
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 6th Oct 2013 05:40
Link
Quote: "If I deleted Solitaire, someone would get a flash drive and copy games onto it, to bring into work to play those games,"


And then they would be fired for not following the rules of the job. It's like you're saying we should just take down speed limit signs because people are just going to speed anyway.

http://zimnox.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
bitJericho
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 6th Oct 2013 05:57
Link
Except playing solitaire on the job can be good for morale and productivity if played in moderation.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Rick the Programmer
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2004
Location: Maryland
Posted: 7th Oct 2013 02:57 Edited at: 7th Oct 2013 02:59
Link
I think the real solution is simple maturity. The worker practices discipline within his work ethic, and the employer practices trust. I'm not a fan of "Us vs Them" take on it that dispels comradery coworkers.

What I've often found is that business comes in spurts. A quick check of the phone or fb is OK during the valleys of business throughout the day, just put your game face on during the peaks of business. So long as it doesn't turn into a case of complete fixation on the extra-curricular toying during the valleys, tech leniency is good & boosts morale.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for ye!
Back to top
Profile PM
Phaelax
DBPro Master
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 7th Oct 2013 07:21
Link
Quote: "I think the real solution is simple maturity"

It's a nice thought in theory, unfortunately you'll have those people who abuse that trust.

Our policy is no personal web surfing. I'm on a contract trying to get hired on full time, so my hands only touch that keyboard for work related purposes. I follow their policies and I don't try to bend them or see how far I can push the boundary without getting yelled at. I can use my phone for any personal web searches, and only make personal calls during lunch. Maybe it's just the military part in me that makes it easier for me to follow rules (even stupid ones) without itching to bypass them.

http://zimnox.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 7th Oct 2013 10:44
Link
In my experience, people will try to get away with whatever they can get away with. One department here used to take 1hr for lunch while everyone else get's a 1/2hr... why?, because their manager couldn't care less about the rules and decided that his people should get an hour. Now of course everyone get's 1/2hr, but that's just an example of the things that go on in smaller companies.

Really though, so far as I can tell there's a lot less gaming happening during breaks, probably due to YouTube and Facebook. In my first proper job, we would all play Doom, Worms, Descent, ROTT, or Duke3D during lunch. It was great, that's the sad thing - you'd grab something to eat and spend a quality 30 minutes on a level. Doom and Duke3D were best, kill the enemies then kill eachother, great fun. That was good for morale - no matter how crappy your day was going, it always got better at lunchtime.

Nowadays I won't lie... I have an old PC setup in my workshop full of Atari ST roms and STeem, I play it while I wait on things like hard drive formats, OS installs, or sometimes I just hide from Monday in there. If I didn't do something during those boring IT chores, then I'd probably fall asleep.
I am the IT dept, it's all a dark art so people mostly leave me alone in there. I don't know how good it is for other peoples morale, but it alleviates my urges to stab people who keep forgetting their password or pouring cups of coffee over their keyboard. In any case, a happy ME in the workplace is better for everyone in the long run

I am the one who knocks...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Phaelax
DBPro Master
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 7th Oct 2013 15:10
Link
You must work for a much smaller company than I. And I think that can also make a big difference. I've work for some rather huge companies where the IT is literally hundreds of people. At smaller companies when there is only a small handfu,l or just you, it's probably easier to be more relaxed about certain rules.

Atari roms you say? I must have!

http://zimnox.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 7th Oct 2013 16:25
Link
Hehe, I've got a lot of ST roms... like a full set of Pompey and Automation disks
I like emulating for the ST, so straightforward with STeem, compared to things like WinUAE and Frodo at least.

The company I work for has about 100 PC's/users, I think it's definitely more straightforward on a user level - there's only 1 person to contact if there's a problem or feature creep, only 1 person to keep sweet
I don't think I'd thrive as part of an IT team, I'd end up arguing with someone or everyone.

I am the one who knocks...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Seditious
User Banned
Posted: 7th Oct 2013 22:09 Edited at: 7th Oct 2013 22:12
Link
Quote: "Hehe, I've got a lot of ST roms... like a full set of Pompey and Automation disks
I like emulating for the ST, so straightforward with STeem, compared to things like WinUAE and Frodo at least. "


My hero! The Atari ST was the first consoles/computers I ever played, I think when I was about 5 or 6. Have some really great memories of those times, mainly playing games from the disks that came with the ST Format magazines. Sadly I think we threw most of the disks out, since someone broke the ST (oops...) and I don't think many of the disks worked anymore anyway.

I have sinced downloaded a few disk images and played them using STeem. So much nostalgia.

Your erased has been moderated by signature.
Back to top
Profile
Back to top

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2025-05-10 13:48:01
Your offset time is: 2025-05-10 13:48:01