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Geek Culture / Why is the forum dying?

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Seppuku Arts
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19
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Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 1st Sep 2014 23:50
Quote: "Hail! Good moro Ser Cactus, allow me to introduce myself, I am Ser Reginald P Manatee, son of Peginald R Manatee."


You're a terrible person. It is actually a lot of fun, our group encourages quality RP, but without being d-bags about it. I love to write, I love gaming, so the two compliment each other. We've grown to be a pretty decent sized group without being too big. I love it. Also written some short stories out of it: http://piratesofawaywardstar.com/Character/CharacterJournals/1


Quote: "C++ > C#. I think C++ is much more suited to game development."


I'm looking more to web application development. For ASP.NET C# is good, plus it's similar in someways as JavaScript and the MVC approach also opens doors for things like Ruby On Rails and well, I suppose PHP wouldn't be a huge jump either. However, my aim is ASP.NET MVC (I prefer it to webforms)

The Nerevar
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Location: Vvardenfell
Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 02:38
I know I'm not a big contributor, but when ever I come back to these forums after a long while I am instantly hooked!
Just coming back and catching up and try to help in anyway I can until something takes me away.

I was signed up for these forums a whole year before I used a product from TGC.
And honestly I am not entirely sure how I heard of this place.

Fulfilling the Nerevarine Prophecy, one trial at a time, because I... Am... The Nerevar!
Green Gandalf
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Joined: 3rd Jan 2005
Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 12:50
Quote: "And honestly I am not entirely sure how I heard of this place."


There are many lost souls wandering around this place who ask themselves the same question.



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BatVink
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Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 18:10
Quote: "The newsletter has become sporadic, It's about to be september, the last issue was what.. may? and the one before that?"


The newsletter has been published on the first of every month for the past 90 issues, and long before that when Rich Davey was the editor. There have been 4 or 5 issues where it was delayed by 2 or 3 days because of a product release.

Maybe your spam filter has become overactive? You can get all the backissues here for the ones you've missed.

In terms of the newsletter all being FPSCR - if/when I get news about DBP and other projects, I can include them. The problem there is that I don't get sent anything, whereas I get FPSCR info from TGC and AppGameKit info from the community, who frequently keep in touch with me. I've addressed this numerous times, but eventually I have to accept that the DBP community aren't interested...sorry but I can't control that.

Green Gandalf
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Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 22:18
Quote: "but eventually I have to accept that the DBP community aren't interested...sorry but I can't control that."


Do I detect a hint there?



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Dar13
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Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 22:46
Quote: "I've addressed this numerous times, but eventually I have to accept that the DBP community aren't interested...sorry but I can't control that."

I think it's more that there's a much smaller community than there once was. Especially since DBP hasn't been updated, not even a bugfix update, in months if not years. The U77 update has been a release candidate since 2011, and was never officially released/completed.

BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 23:44
Quote: "Do I detect a hint there?"


I have hinted many times
I've been accused on numerous occasions of dismissing the DBPro community in the newsletter. My response is always that I'm happy to publish things that come my way. Unfortunately it never does.

In the FPSC cave, KeithC sends me links to interesting games, media and tools, as do others. In the AppGameKit camp, Naphier contributes tutorials and many people send me links to games. The AppGameKit showcase gets enough feedback to help me decide what is good and what is not so good.

Strangely, when people complain about the lack of DBPro, they never become part of the solution

</RANT>

Green Gandalf
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Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 3rd Sep 2014 00:40
Quote: "Especially since DBP hasn't been updated, not even a bugfix update, in months if not years. The U77 update has been a release candidate since 2011, and was never officially released/completed."


I agree. That probably put a lot of people off - and the lack of a clear replacement didn't help.



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Clonkex
Forum Vice President
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Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 3rd Sep 2014 04:21
Quote: "I've been accused on numerous occasions of dismissing the DBPro community in the newsletter. My response is always that I'm happy to publish things that come my way. Unfortunately it never does."


And what a shame that is, too. DBPro is still a really good language.

tiresius
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Location: MA USA
Posted: 3rd Sep 2014 04:42
A lot of the bedroom coder / hobbyist languages are having this problem. The BRL forums get the same type of posts. I wonder if there are articles found on game design sites that describe what is causing this or why it is happening.

I think the glory days of the early DarkBasic / DBPro (I'm talking 2000 - 2005 here folks) era is gone and is replaced with something else.

It seems like things are more application game-maker based now, including the Unity craze. Unity has gotten a huge market share over the last several years and it seems unstoppable.

Personally for me, it is still all about the language and not using game-maker scripting type stuff. But I think I am part of a quickly growing minority and the new generation trends away from it.

bitJericho
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2014 05:48 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2014 05:55
There is a decline, but I believe it's the lack of quality compilers compared to the likes of C#, Java and the more GUI-fied tools like UDK/Unity. It's basically a decline due to none of the modern basic compiler makers keeping up with the times.

Look at this:

Quote: "DarkBASIC consists of an IDE, Debugger and interpreter, and an engine built on DirectX 7. The compiler emits Bytecode that is appended to an interpreter to create a stand alone executable.

It was first released in 2000 by DarkBasic Software Ltd (now The Game Creators Ltd.)."


14 years ago... what language that TGC develops now is as powerful as that?

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 3rd Sep 2014 18:06
Unity and Unreal definitely seem to have taken over. I do enjoy using Unity, simply because it allows me to prototype ideas FAST.

However, I would love it if I could use AppGameKit in the same way I used to program in DBP. Sadly, it's taking TGC a while to get it completely off the ground, it seems. At least for 3D capabilities.


Meh game development blaugh!
Wolf
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Location: Luxemburg
Posted: 3rd Sep 2014 21:18
I enjoy UDK because of its erotic level editor and I currently give Leadwerks the bedroom eyes as it apparently runs well on Linux.

Unity remains unattractive to me...I just dislike it. ...but in the end I return to TGC products.

Perhaps its just a dry streak and the forum will liven up again. I did read through Ortus post, and he is raising a lot of valid points. Perhaps you should too.





-Wolf

"When I contradict myself, I am telling the truth"
"absurdity has become necessity"
Clonkex
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Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 4th Sep 2014 03:31
Quote: "Unity remains unattractive to me...I just dislike it."


Really? Huh. I really like Unity because it strikes a nice balance between visual editing and pure code.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 4th Sep 2014 06:39
Quote: "I really like Unity because it strikes a nice balance between visual editing and pure code."


That's why I like it too!

If you want, you could theoretically code an entire game in Unity much in the same way you could with DBP, by attaching a main script to an empty game object. Why you would do that is a bit beyond me, but it COULD be done.

I love Unreal for its visual editing, but it leaves a lot to be desired for actual scripting, although Blueprint is REALLY cool for "visual scripting".


Meh game development blaugh!
Ortu
DBPro Master
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Posted: 4th Sep 2014 07:03
Quote: "Maybe your spam filter has become overactive? You can get all the backissues here for the ones you've missed.

In terms of the newsletter all being FPSCR - if/when I get news about DBP and other projects, I can include them. The problem there is that I don't get sent anything, whereas I get FPSCR info from TGC and AppGameKit info from the community, who frequently keep in touch with me. I've addressed this numerous times, but eventually I have to accept that the DBP community aren't interested...sorry but I can't control that."


Hmm perhaps so, I don't remember ever seeing it in my email. I always look for the announcement post here on the GC board, and the last thread stickied here was for may, giving me the impression that that was the most current. I will check my spam filters!

Quik
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Posted: 4th Sep 2014 09:27
Quote: "If you want, you could theoretically code an entire game in Unity much in the same way you could with DBP, by attaching a main script to an empty game object. Why you would do that is a bit beyond me, but it COULD be done.
"


One of the first games we got to make back in that crappy school i went to was a memory, which was kind of made with one script file; Possibly two, i cant rmeember too clearly. (Yeha It was made entirely from a tutorial with little to no help from the teachers...)

Welp, that said I do really like unity 3d and I think it's a great program both for beginners and somewhat experienced people. I am not sure if it's all that great compared to say unreal or cryengine but... Well i do suppose those two arre also way more complex

(Sorry for all the typos, somewhat in a hurry~)



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Jeku
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Posted: 4th Sep 2014 19:07
I really wish there was a new DBP product that used OpenGL and worked on modern operating systems. There have been two full releases of FPSC since DBP has been re-released.

Senior Developer - CBS Interactive Music Group
MrValentine
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 06:28
Wow, just wow...

We get a lot of these threads but as far as I can think they never get past 50 posts...

I think the extremely lacking amount of guides and tutorials and QUALITY of such content is a Main factor of few people getting to DBPro in general, all of the following... affordability, portability, and accessibility ♿ of such material makes new users almost a no go...

Hence why I am working on Prototype which will see KINDLE, NOOK and Apple 🍎 iBooks releases (well that last one when I visit the Apple store for clarification of how if what I need iTunes just to make an account and whether or not I need a Mac to publish to it...... So it will be last to get books I publish...)

Progress is slow but steady... Just a handful of things in my way at the moment before I can press on with completion of said tutorials...

Anyways just tagging in after reading every post in here...

Version Control... I use a form of it, but will never touch any of those tortoiseSVN or GitHub stuff... They are terrible pieces of software that belong in the pits of arms...

I had an idea recently regarding news posts involving Videos but as YouTube is extremely unreliable and Vimeo is horridly pathetic unless you brandish a Golden Hen, I will be using my own server to kickstart the process... I hope it will make updates of what is going on around here more interesting...

Phew...

I hate saying I have spent a fortune with TGC as it sounds you know :p but after meeting RickV last year I am keen to see TGC develop into the future!

They are down to earth guys, and very passionate with their babies... That is the impression I had anyway when I met RickV I get confused with his name lol 😁

Wish they would run a DBPro Kickstarter soon...

DBPro users, please start posting DEMOs of your Projects... Will be reviewing them!

29 games
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 16:47 Edited at: 6th Sep 2014 19:05
When I read the forums it's generally with a feeling of "what's everyone moaning about today". [edit] this comment wasn't a dig at Libervurto but just my reason for not contributing to the forums all that often.

Personally I would hate to be TGC. The user base pulls in so many different directions, technology constantly changes around them - gives AppGameKit Blackberry support and then Blackberry almost go down the pan (there's a meme in that somewhere) - that it must be difficult to know what to do, especially with such limited resources.

Although I agree that TGC shoots themselves in the foot with how they communicate sometimes, I do get the feeling that they spend time talking to people who actually make games / apps with DBPro and AGK. So probably the best way to get them to listen is to actually make something to prove that you are serious about it.

Quote: "I really wish there was a new DBP product that used OpenGL and worked on modern operating systems"


Wouldn't that just be AppGameKit? Why aren't you using AppGameKit? I'm just genuinely curious as to why people who like DBPro don't like AGK.

I'm probably straying from your point here, but occassionally people say they want a multiformat DBPro but wouldn't a multiformat DBPro just have all the same functionality, limitations and problems as AppGameKit?

I didn't use AppGameKit straight away as it was only 2D and at the time I hadn't made anything worthwhile with DBPro and decided not to spend any more money or look at any other software until I had. Although the AppGameKit 3D commands are limited I find them better than the DBPro equivalents and I like the syntax better (it's more consistant and I like the fact their aren't spaces in the commands).

So I'm curious as to why other people haven't moved over.

MrValentine
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 17:05
Quote: "So I'm curious as to why other people haven't moved over."


Probably because of this...

29 games
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 17:44
But limited in what way?

Is it the lack of 3D commands? Doesn't support pluggins? Isn't OOP? Poor IDE? Isn't called DBPro 3? Can't import DBPro projects?

Clonkex
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 17:50
Quote: "But limited in what way?"


Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

MrValentine
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 17:58
Well, not all platforms support DLL linking, so that goes out of the window for one... Apple even disallow it from what I have read in the AppGameKit board...

Let me think... 10+ years vs. 3~ to begin with but DBPro is on a solid foundation, whereas CROSS Platform work requires multiple dedications and intimate knowledge of many factors of various systems...

I think if you looked into it other tools tend to have much more than 3 core developers working on their products...

I like TGC because when I was comparing tools back in 2010, aside from being based in the UK [I try to support UK based businesses first where possible] they also appeared to be more humble and also their tools looked more FRIENDLY and also had this English speaking community

uhh you get what I am saying...

As far as I know, AppGameKit has 1.5 developers working on it...

MrValentine
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 17:59
Mind you that is from my point of view and understanding of TGC and Such tools

Seditious
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 18:49 Edited at: 6th Sep 2014 18:50
Quote: "So I'm curious as to why other people haven't moved over."


They have, it's just that most of them have moved onto greener pastures. TGC couldn't keep up with the times.
29 games
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 19:35
Maybe one of the reasons the forum is dying is that people just put up links with little explanation / interaction. Hardly the material for a strong vibrant community

I was more talking about why current DBPro users don't use AppGameKit and why people want a multiplatform DBPro when, in my opinion, it would be AppGameKit in all but name.

I look at some of the AppGameKit projects and the games that have made it onto the app stores and I think they hold their own. There's nothing about them that might imply they are somehow inferior simply by being made with AGK.

Just out of interest do you use Monkey-X? What makes it better than AppGameKit? I'm not saying it's not, just interested in your opinion as I know almost nothing about it.

Indicium
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 19:37
Quote: "Version Control... I use a form of it, but will never touch any of those tortoiseSVN or GitHub stuff... They are terrible pieces of software that belong in the pits of arms..."


You know nothing on the subject then. What kind of version control do you use?
TheComet
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 19:45
Quote: "Version Control... I use a form of it, but will never touch any of those tortoiseSVN or GitHub stuff... They are terrible pieces of software that belong in the pits of arms..."


Let's play "spot the person using zip files and backup tapes"

Seriously though, I'm genuinely interested in hearing why you'd hate something like git.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linux Torvalds
mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 20:25
Quote: "why you'd hate something like git"

A random git bited him when he was a child. Childhood trauma, you know.

Ortu
DBPro Master
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 20:33
MrV tends to like expensive professional grade solutions, nothing wrong with that if you have funds to support it, I'd take a wild guess he uses perforce.

Why don't i use agk? I am just not interested in making casual or arcade style mobile apps, it's just not my thing. I like playing 2d but i don't care to program for it. While it would be nice to be able to compile dbpro games for mac and Linux, it's not a deal breaker for me. Lots of people have lots of opinions on the subject, and I'm not looking to debate on it here just answering your question, but my main interest and focus is still desktop windows gaming.

MrValentine
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 20:40
For archiving yes nothing beats .ZIP

But I use some paid software [Cheap anyway] which I can use in more than one way...

Not stating the name as it would amount to marketing for something not made by TGC... [You can of course email me if interested in the name if you cannot guess it from the below info]

One is Whole Disk backups, both remote and local

Two is TimeLine versions of files, including STATES as per save meaning every time the timestamp on a file changes it gets a fresh timeline based backup meaning I can revert to a specific backup at any time [Both the entire folder or individual files] fully integrated into the Windows interface and the application itself...

Third is Both On-Site and Off-Site incremental backups [On-Site timeline, Off-Site time based]

Fourth I have the option of a Shared Folder between systems with Version control and a remote recycle bin stored on a central server I use 1TB storage options for this

And some more but those are the four hit points worth mentioning... [That i could remember at this point lol]

I used to use OneDrive [Formerly SkyDrive] but found when using Project folders spanning several gigabytes and many thousands of files it tended to bog down in syncs, hopefully this has been fixed but I use it for storing my .ZIPS now... in my personal OneDrive I have around 200GB~ at present and in my business OneDrive I have 1TB as well

My network has on average 30Mbits uploading capacity at present, so that was not a bottleneck for the syncs as 1.5GB per hour is an average with bursts shooting that to over 3GB... click images for full size view...



But I found that metering system to be inaccurate as in the past few days I have actually done much more than what is stated...

Also this is just one of three systems backed up in the last few days...

I have had Top Gear Burma and India Specials on repeat in HD for almost all the high download volume in sort of Cyan colour for the past day

Oh and a fifth beauty of this is the systems can be restored to ANY other machine and not the same system in case of theft, usually restoring an image backup to a computer means Windows does not recognise the hardware and locks up forcing you to do a fresh install [But those of us with a little more history know to just re-install Windows on the same system to preserve the drivers and data when a secondary drive/partition is not optional either]

I hope this satisfies the thirst for curiosity

While I know SVN and Repositories have their benefits, I think the software for the common names out there are in need of a little simplicity... I find them silly and over burdening because I have a working simplified version which is further more complex and advanced... not because I cannot figure them out... because I did, and did not have SSL at the time to make them worthwhile... there is more to the tale of them being used but some companies have certain requirements and at the time, these options did not meet them. the options I have to me both meet and exceed my requirements as do they my company as I have both SSL connectivity and Encryption on data... again both locally and remotely...
[Albeit SVN etc. do work better in larger than 1-5 system scenarios which is the limit of my toolset at present [Though they have pricier options available]



OOOH also I get emails when a backup had succeeded or failed with log reports of what took place including connectivity issues [Just got a success email which made me add this lol]

Indicium
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 20:41 Edited at: 6th Sep 2014 20:42
Perforce sounds like a expensive version of Git. Mr V, that doesn't sound like version control. That sounds like file backups.
mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Sep 2014 20:46
Quote: "but my main interest and focus is still desktop windows gaming."


May I shake your hand, sir?



MrValentine
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 6th Sep 2014 21:56
Quote: "MrV tends to like expensive professional grade solutions"


Professional, Not Expensive [Not right now anyway ]



Thanks for noticing though

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 7th Sep 2014 13:00
Quote: "Quote: "but my main interest and focus is still desktop windows gaming."

May I shake your hand, sir?"


Indeed you may.



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Wolf
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Posted: 7th Sep 2014 15:23
Isn't it likely that TGC will work on a new version or similar product of/to DBPro once FPSCR is released?



-Wolf

"When I contradict myself, I am telling the truth"
"absurdity has become necessity"
Clonkex
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Posted: 7th Sep 2014 15:29 Edited at: 7th Sep 2014 15:29
Quote: "Isn't it likely that TGC will work on a new version or similar product of/to DBPro once FPSCR is released?"


It is. Lee has already had to do a lot of work on DBPro to make it good enough for Reloaded, including fixing memory leaks, bugs and making the compiler a gazillion times faster.

Rudolpho
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Posted: 7th Sep 2014 17:18
Quote: "Isn't it likely that TGC will work on a new version or similar product of/to DBPro once FPSCR is released?"

I don't know if I'm supposed to post this but judging from the reply I got from mr. Vanner when asking about their potential interest in marketing my DX11 plugin it sounded like a complete rewrite of DBPro wasn't on the table in the foreseeable future.


"Why do programmers get Halloween and Christmas mixed up?"
MrValentine
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Posted: 7th Sep 2014 17:35
I wonder if TGC would allow a Kickstarter in their stead...

Clonkex
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Posted: 8th Sep 2014 02:00
Quote: "it sounded like a complete rewrite of DBPro wasn't on the table in the foreseeable future."


No, I wouldn't expect a complete rewrite, but Lee definitely has done a lot to it, so I do expect a new version at some point in the not-too-distant future.

Rudolpho
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Posted: 8th Sep 2014 02:34
That may very well be, sounds reasonable enough


"Why do programmers get Halloween and Christmas mixed up?"
Hockeykid
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Posted: 8th Sep 2014 03:00
Quote: "but Lee definitely has done a lot to it"


Yes, but the majority of what he has done has been FPSC Reloaded specific. Back when FPSC X10 was being developed a similar situation occurred in which TGC said they would likely release Lee's modified Direct X10 version of DBPro as its own product (something along those lines). Years later it was released along side of the FPSC X10 source code, all of its commands were undocumented and they were all sort of FPSC X10 specific. It was really only ever released so people could modify the FPSC X10 source code and compile it.

Sean

Indicium
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Posted: 8th Sep 2014 03:43
So Lee is writing extra functions of DBP in C++ for FPSC:R? Why not just cut out the middle man?
Hockeykid
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Posted: 8th Sep 2014 05:18
Quote: "So Lee is writing extra functions of DBP in C++ for FPSC:R?"


Some of it is extra functions, some of it seems to be complete features done in C++. For example, he is using C++ for FPSC:R shadow system.

Quote from Lee's blog
Quote: "
Coding the technique from the DBP and Shader code was fine, but two reasons brought me to a halt. Firstly, I ran out of commands, such as producing an offset orthographic matrix and producing a depth only camera. Secondly, I realised that I did not want to create a huge amount of cameras to achieve the effect as at some point it had to integrate nicely into the main engine which has many cameras spoken for.

Given the above situation, I have decided to switch away from the DBP side and dive directly into the DLL side. That is, write the entire chunk of code responsible for shadow mapping inside the DLL so I can write it in pure C++. Not only will the results be faster, it will be easier to debug and trace though and I will be able to cut and paste some code from the DirectX SDK example to speed up my implementation of the various elements required to achieve great outdoor shadows."


Quote: "Why not just cut out the middle man?"


FPSC:R is built off of FPSC Classic's source which was all written in DBPro.


Sean

Clonkex
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Posted: 8th Sep 2014 15:04
Quote: "Years later it was released along side of the FPSC X10 source code, all of its commands were undocumented and they were all sort of FPSC X10 specific. It was really only ever released so people could modify the FPSC X10 source code and compile it."


I firmly believe TGC will release an updated version of DBPro when Reloaded is finished. No doubt about it from me.

Quote: "Why not just cut out the middle man?"


There's no chance of Lee spending another year or two rewriting Reloaded in pure C+.

Indicium
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Posted: 9th Sep 2014 00:06
Quote: "FPSC:R is built off of FPSC Classic's source which was all written in DBPro."


That doesn't make sense to me either. DBPro just isn't suited to such a project imo.
BatVink
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Posted: 9th Sep 2014 00:08
It served 2 purposes. As well as being a product in it's own right, it also showed what is possible with DB Pro.

Clonkex
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Posted: 9th Sep 2014 04:28
Quote: "That doesn't make sense to me either. DBPro just isn't suited to such a project imo."


It was fine for FPSC x9, but not so great for Reloaded. The only reason Lee is doing it in DBPro is because he's basing Reloaded off the x9 source code to reduce dev time. In the end he probably could have rewritten the thing in C++ in less time than it's taken so far, but he never would have completed it because the project would be too big, and TGC never would have gotten the funds necessary because for most of the time there would have been nothing to show.

Jeku
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Posted: 9th Sep 2014 09:08
Quote: "I firmly believe TGC will release an updated version of DBPro when Reloaded is finished. No doubt about it from me."


I sure hope so.

And the reason I haven't really moved into AppGameKit is because I found another alternative to making casual 2D games that are multiplatform, called HaXe, which is much more mature. Don't get me wrong, AppGameKit was great for prototyping with, but it doesn't have the same FEEL as DBP. It's hard to explain, really, and I'm not sure what the feeling I had with DBP was that is missing from AGK. There's definitely something missing, though

Senior Developer - CBS Interactive Music Group

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