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Geek Culture / Perhaps just nostalgia talking, but...

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RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 20th Nov 2014 16:30
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Hi,

My personal view is that these forums are foremost about TGC products. We're grown up enough to also know there are other game making tools for sale by other companies and we're happy for discussions to be had about them. We're not going to set up threads about them but we'll certainly be keen to know things they can do that we can learn from.

Rick

Development Director
TGC Team
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Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 20th Nov 2014 16:55
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WIP threads are considered per case. For example, if an established user was to post a WIP thread about a Unity project, it may well be left alone by moderators, because we know that there is less chance of flaming.
Most non-TGC project threads are from users who signed up just to post their WIP or announcement thread. This won't be apparent, because we tend to just delete these threads as they are considered spam... most users won't even know they ever existed. If you find a non-TGC project in the WIP section, it's most likely that it's from someone who's used the forum for a decent amount of time, and often the user has specifically asked if they can post their thread beforehand.

Yodaman, I understand - but from my POV, it's like someone asking to build a new shed in your garden to go beside the old shed, because the old shed hasn't been looked at in years. I don't get why Unity users etc don't just take over that other languages section, put their projects in there, and we'll be able to see them without it leaking into other areas of the forum that are primarily for TGC languages. This option has been open since day 1 and what we typically see in there is everyday users brushing up on C++ or PHP, sometimes work related... nobody posts actual projects in there and to me it seems like a bit of a waste.

There is also the Game Design Theory board, we don't care what language or platform or anything gets discussed in there - it's for things like gameplay mechanics and non-language specific discussions. That's the part that sticks in my craw - we have 2 boards that are specifically for all languages and they are some of the slowest traffic boards on the whole forum - yet somehow there's a dire need to provide more support!

I am the one who knocks...
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Matty H
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Posted: 20th Nov 2014 17:34
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Quote: "If you find a non-TGC project in the WIP section, it's most likely that it's from someone who's used the forum for a decent amount of time, and often the user has specifically asked if they can post their thread beforehand."


This makes perfect sense

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Dar13
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Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 20th Nov 2014 22:24 Edited at: 21st Nov 2014 01:41
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Quote: "TGC's official position is ''Why in the blue hell would we promote other peoples development products?''"

We aren't asking for a specific board for specific products. We're asking for a generic board that would allow for a wide variety of products. At it stands right now, I couldn't even post a WIP of a game that uses pure SDLv2 and OpenGL as its not a TGC product despite it not promoting any other product(SDL is an LGPL project IIRC).

I agree that a particular UE4 and/or Unity board would be stupid for TGC to have, that's why we've never asked for one. We're just using UE4 and Unity as they are common alternative engines.

Quote: "I could post links to some WIP's on this board that use other game engines only I don't want to get them locked. I am totally confused now whether you are allowed to post WIP's on here or not?"

Only if they use TGC products in some capacity. Otherwise they will be locked immediately.

Quote: "All that's really been suggested is that perhaps TGC could create (or merge) a section that allows people to post WIP threads on their games that aren't made with DBP/AGK/FPSC."

Or just move Programming Talk down to be with Geek Culture. It could be the official 'holy wars' board where all debates of languages and tools could take place rather than all over the forums. Of course, these 'holy wars' would have to be restricted and moderated but I wouldn't be against volunteering for that.

Edit: And that's what I get for waiting so long to post my message. You can ignore most of what I said due to Van B's latest message.

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Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 21st Nov 2014 00:34
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@Van B:

I definitely see your points! What if we moved Programming Talk and Game Design Theory down with Geek Culture, as it's more sort of "General Chats"? Would that be a viable idea?

I would also volunteer as a moderator to help filter out unwanted/spam messages, if you guys trusted me.

This thread has definitely gone in a bit of a different direction than I originally intended


Meh game development blaugh!
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 21st Nov 2014 01:17
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Quote: "I would also volunteer as a moderator to help filter out unwanted/spam messages, if you guys trusted me."
I would also volunteer for this role. I personally think Yodaman Jer would make a great mod. Cheery guy with a good head on his shoulders! I wonder if anyone else would nominate me to moderator position? I used to have a poor past on these forums, but I hope it's cleared up by now.

That way, Clonkex, Yodaman Jer, and I could form a three man mod team for Geek Culture. Especially if, as Yoda suggested, boards were merged into Geek Culture.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 21st Nov 2014 01:40
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We can't have that many moderators though, so I would automatically ask to be removed

Too many cooks spoil the pot, and all those other sayings!

I do think moving the Programming Talk and Game Design Theory boards somewhere else, preferably to Geek Culture, is the way to go though!

But like I said earlier in this thread, most of my time in the near future will probably be spent over on the AppGameKit boards, since I am going to buy and start developing with AppGameKit 2.


Meh game development blaugh!
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Clonkex
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2014 02:35 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2014 02:37
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Quote: "I have never experienced any speed issues with AGK. Seriously"


Me neither.

I just realised last night that some random guy GIFTED me AGK2 several weeks ago. I never even noticed or thanked him for it! From what I can tell from his cryptic emails he appreciated my open-source code from my sig so much that he felt the need to give me something. I've emailed him with my thanks now, but I still feel bad about it... on the other hand I'm excited to play with AGK2!


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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2014 03:44
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Wow, kudos to that guy, whoever he may be! I'm sure he'll realize that you're a busy guy and just didn't notice it until now.

I'm very jealous of you now, Clonkex, owning AppGameKit 2 and all that.

I actually just downloaded and reactivated my old copy of GameMaker Studio, just for grins. I really liked using it for quick prototyping, but I still want to buy AppGameKit for sure, as I want to be able to program everything myself and not rely on an engine's defaults that don't always work as expected. After all, that's what drove me mad about GameMaker/Unity in the first place!

I've already started planning another level editor for a sidescrolling platformer I want to make with AppGameKit, when I can afford it.

Anybody want to gift AppGameKit 2 to me as well? haha just kidding of course


Meh game development blaugh!
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Clonkex
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2014 06:17
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Quote: "Wow, kudos to that guy, whoever he may be!"


Indeed!

Quote: "I'm very jealous of you now, Clonkex, owning AppGameKit 2 and all that."


Hehe It's really good. I haven't felt so excited about playing with a new software toy since I bought DBPro all those years ago! The first thing I did was open up the help and then open each page of commands in a new tab so I could go through and see what interesting new commands there are

Quote: "I actually just downloaded and reactivated my old copy of GameMaker Studio, just for grins. I really liked using it for quick prototyping, but I still want to buy AppGameKit for sure, as I want to be able to program everything myself and not rely on an engine's defaults that don't always work as expected. After all, that's what drove me mad about GameMaker/Unity in the first place!"


Huh, I actually own GameMaker Studio Professional + HTML Export because of a sale some time ago. It's a really awesome product, and the devs are good about updates - I told them about a bug with the shape editor at one point and it was fixed within a couple of days! The thing that I like about it most is that Hotline Miami was created with it

Speaking of other game making programs, I also own Multimedia Fusion 2 It's been one of my all-time favourites for game-making. I started with the original Games Factory 1.6 that was included for free on an old PC User disk. It's what really got me started in game making.

Speaking of getting started in game making... the only reason I have any knowledge of DBPro or even TGC is because of a PhysX demo included with the graphics drivers of my first new PC back in 2009. The demo showed a ball rolling along a track smashing boxes and crates out of the way. At the end of the demo it said "Made With DarkBasic Professional". As it turns out that was a brilliant move of the part of TGC, as I've now spent hundreds of dollars with them.

I'm sure you asked me if you'd told me to get off my high-horse, but I can't find which thread that was. The answer would be yes, I believe so, but I can't remember either where that was or why you had to say that


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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 24th Nov 2014 20:59
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Quote: "I'm sure you asked me if you'd told me to get off my high-horse, but I can't find which thread that was. The answer would be yes, I believe so, but I can't remember either where that was or why you had to say that "


Lol, it's bothering me because it was so recent and yet I can't find it to determine why I felt the need to say such a thing, since you're a pretty level-headed guy.

And yes, GameMaker Studio is an excellent product, but as I said in my original post, I miss the programming from scratch the most. I love that I just figured out my own undo/redo list system in AppGameKit, because it will enable me to write a very excellent tile map editor for a game I want to make, that will allow players to create and upload their own levels to share online.

It's funny, because for the longest time I thought I was more art-minded than technical-minded, so I had kind of given up on programming and that's why I looked into Unreal, Unity and GameMaker. I then realized I love programming and that's why I love AppGameKit so much.


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Clonkex
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Posted: 27th Nov 2014 14:23
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Quote: "since you're a pretty level-headed guy."


Well...

Quote: "I miss the programming from scratch the most"


Definitely! When I've made sufficient money to live without working from my Unity-made game (what? So what if it sounds far-fetched...? ) I fully intend to go back to making game engines from scratch in pure programming languages


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Wolf
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Posted: 28th Nov 2014 13:55 Edited at: 29th Nov 2014 16:32
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Quote: "* FPSC 12 year olds."


Dang it! My secret is out.

...but I get wat yodaman is trying to convey, at least in a sense. While I can only handle simplified scripting languages programming wise, I just like to do my 3D art in ancient or sub-par software. There is just something about modeling in Milkshape that is just not there in all the modern stuff.

I have never been fully integrated in the DBPro community as I'm from the FPSC camp and don't resonate well with the math-people, but I know very well that if this community dies out or just keeps being cocky in geek-culture, the TGC Family will follow soon after as it is the backbone of the whole group.

Quote: "If you compare the traffic today to how the traffic was 2 years ago, you'll see a drastic drop."


Jupp! Also in tone and enthusiasm of actual projects displayed. The only one I keep revisiting currently is Sulium by ortu.

Quote: "Unity (...) is great"


No! Make it stop!

Quote: " We don't want a Unity support forum, or Unreal support forum, or GameMaker support forum - just a place in which we can post non-TGC WIP threads, much like the NaGaCreMo board The Next made for us last year."


Thats a good idea, I don't see any reason not to do that.



-Wolf

"When I contradict myself, I am telling the truth"
"absurdity has become necessity"
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Clonkex
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Posted: 29th Nov 2014 05:37
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Quote: "Dang it! My secret is out."


lol

Quote: "I have never been fully integrated in the community"


I count you as fully integrated! You're a valuable member of the community!


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Dar13
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Posted: 29th Nov 2014 08:08
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Math people? Wolf, we hate math. (at least I do)

I've always thought of you as part of this community, you've done more for FPSC than the vast majority. I think only a very short list has done more. Just because you only stop by in Geek Culture occasionally doesn't mean you're not part of this forum community.

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Wolf
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Posted: 29th Nov 2014 16:40
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Hey!

Thanks guys! Thats really warm, but I misworded it!
I feel like a part of the TGC Community, I've just never been a part of the Coding/DBPro roots (which are the pundits around here).

It feels very good to be valued by other constructive members though

Quote: "you've done more for FPSC than the vast majority"


Thank you! I hope to be just as helpful for reloaded

Quote: "Math people? Wolf, we hate math. (at least I do)"


I don't even hate it, I find it partially interesting...I just can't do it. Sadly, I have dyscalculia.



-Wolf

"When I contradict myself, I am telling the truth"
"absurdity has become necessity"
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Dar13
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Posted: 29th Nov 2014 18:07
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Ah alright. Definitely read into that wrong.

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Kezzla
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Posted: 30th Nov 2014 04:42
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Quote: "I don't even hate it, I find it partially interesting...I just can't do it. Sadly, I have dyscalculia. "


+1 here.

That is actually one of the reasons that I love programming so much.
I can write out logic and just plug in the specific variables and it does it for me.
It's quite pleasing to go from struggling with the most basic mental arithmetic to being able to calculate quite complex things with a program.
And its gratifying to know that it is my thought process that is achieving it, and could achieve it alone if the numbers would just stop getting all tangled and lost.
It could be worse, at lease we are not completely lysdexic.

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Van B
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Posted: 30th Nov 2014 12:21
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There is this video on YouTube, where a guy 'proves' that he can double the speed of his network using calculus, he shows that doubling the capacity of the network cable will double the speed. Then he selotapes a piece of network cable to it...

So, you can completely understand calculus and be a moron at the same time. That's comforting at least. Personally I only liked calculus when I understood it - when I finally figured out some uses for it, it started making a lot more sense. Like what is the ideal size of a rectangle if it has to unfold into a 2D space. I think one of the worst things you can do is try and solve or imagine calculus as program code, it just doesn't translate IMO.

I am the one who knocks...
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 30th Nov 2014 17:33 Edited at: 30th Nov 2014 17:34
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@Clonkex:

I found where I said that, it was in nonZero's Smilies and Emoticons Submissions thread. I guess I said it because you sounded so shocked that everyone had seemed to ignore his request of submissions only but instead everyone was chit-chatting along and you tried to defend him. Looking back my saying it makes no sense, I guess I thought it was funny

On-Topic!

I am one who hates math, but it's weird because it's the simple stuff I hate, like division. I used to quite like algebra back in high school but I haven't used it since then very much and as a result I have forgotten a lot of stuff, because programs usually do the math for you

Well to a certain extent, anyway, one still has to know the idea behind a basic formula. Just recently I was trying to figure out how to draw a 2d grid for a tile map editor and I completely forgot that the best way to do it was to multiply each line's spacing instead of adding took me an hour to realize why it wasn't working as expected!

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Clonkex
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Posted: 1st Dec 2014 13:11
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Quote: "I found where I said that, it was in nonZero's Smilies and Emoticons Submissions thread. I guess I said it because you sounded so shocked that everyone had seemed to ignore his request of submissions only but instead everyone was chit-chatting along and you tried to defend him."


Oh THAT'S right! Yeah, I'd forgotten about that. A sad end to a good thread. I wonder what happened to our oh-so-not-here-right-now Presidente?

Quote: "It's quite pleasing to go from struggling with the most basic mental arithmetic to being able to calculate quite complex things with a program."


Definitely, I'm like this too, BUT in my case I think my programming actually caused me to become bad at arithmetic. I recently realised my problem (while seriously struggling with Mum's lackluster explanations)... it's that normal explanations for maths don't explain the why right down to the smallest detail. My brain needs the why to be able to figure out the maths. I'm also having to relearn all the basics, like how to multiply and divide, and also having to retrain my brain to do mental arithmetic since I've lost that ability due to calculators always being at hand. I hate to be the modern-age teenager that can't add in my head, so I now use my brain instead of my phone any time I need to work something out. [/ramble]


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 1st Dec 2014 14:24
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Quote: "it's that normal explanations for maths don't explain the why right down to the smallest detail. My brain needs the why to be able to figure out the maths."
I am this way too! School math classes expect you to blindly accept everything they teach you, generally with no explanation of why the things they are teaching you do what they do.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 1st Dec 2014 17:41
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I AM THE SAME WAY!

My brain needs to know the why in order to understand the principles I'm attempting to learn. This is why it has taken me so long to learn as much as I have about programming, because a lot of tutorials just show you the code without explaining why it has to be that way. Thankfully tutorials made by TGC forum goers are pretty good, I particularly remember the Binary Moon tutorials being excellent and those were what really made me realize that I loved the idea of programming!

Clonkex, I also wonder what happened to nonZero. Last anybody heard from him was his announcement about making a duplicate account. Jeku locked the thread telling him to contact TGC directly about it, and not a peep's been uttered since then. I hope they didn't ban him over it.

Also, are you still a teenager!!? I wonder if I read your post right haha. I'm 23 and for some reason I've always pictured you as older than me.

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Ortu
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Posted: 1st Dec 2014 20:30
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Same here as well regarding math and the why. I think it is this very trait that draws us to programming. Code is often more about logic and problem solving than it is raw math, this let's us deal with the higher level why, the end goal and how to achieve it instead of the underlying mechanics of the mathematical operation. The more of the raw math you know the better off course, but the code often let's us abstract away the details enough that you don't have to be a mathematician to get complex things done. I like that, and working something out in code has often helped me understand the why on things which i never quite got when using them in a more traditional academic setting.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 1st Dec 2014 22:08
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Quote: "School math classes expect you to blindly accept everything they teach you, generally with no explanation of why the things they are teaching you do what they do. "


Then you had bad Maths teachers.
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Ortu
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 00:02
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Part of the problem here at least is that teachers are often pressured to teach against standardized tests: memorize this list of formula, learn to recognize which formula to use on which type of problem, learn to identify which values to put in which variable. But little time or attention is taken to explore the actual relationships between the variables and why they interact the way they do within the formula to solve the problem. There is little time and a dozen other things that need to be covered before the month is out.

Some people can look at numbers and equations and just grasp what's going on, i need to see it as something more tangible, programming is a great way to visualize something by easily converting things into 2d/3d animation, spatial positioning and rotation that you can observe and so on. Change a value, immediately see how it affects the result.

Plus, and this is a big one: verbose, descriptive variables and function names instead of cryptic symbols and alphabet soup of compact 1 letter variables. When you don't have to cram everything onto a piece of paper or chalkboard, you can work with meaningful, easy to understand labels. Things become so much easier to keep track of.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 00:25
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Quote: "Then you had bad Maths teachers."
Largely yes. I have had a few very excellent teachers, and they indeed always made a point of clearly explaining how and why things worked.

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BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 09:49
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Quote: "Quote: "I don't even hate it, I find it partially interesting...I just can't do it. Sadly, I have dyscalculia. ""


Quote: "+1 here."


That's a harsh response to someone with dyscalculia

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Clonkex
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 09:51
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Quote: "School math classes expect you to blindly accept everything they teach you, generally with no explanation of why the things they are teaching you do what they do."


Agreed, definitely. I'm homeschooled (well technically it's distance-ed) and for my schooling I do these things called PACEs. They're just workbooks with the text and questions in the books themselves. For the most part they're pretty good; make you read a few paragraphs, then basically regurgitate the exact words from the sentence on the previous page. Some PACEs have variations on this, like the Science PACEs, which had so much to teach that they had a separate textbook and workbook for each PACE. Then the LightUnit books (normally we do ACC PACEs) are always black-and-white and make you actually think about the answer because it's not exactly what was written in the text.

However, the Maths PACEs are really, really terrible. They simply NEVER tell you WHY you're doing something. They'll explain a concept, then give you a list of problems to complete to learn the concept... but at the end, they'll stuff in a problem that you weren't taught how to complete! Normally, that would probably be a good idea... you know, force you to think for yourself and all that... but they don't actually give you the why behind all the previous concepts, so you have no way of working any new concepts for yourself.

Anyway, I only have 3 Maths PACEs and 3 English PACEs to go and I will have FINALLY (a year behind) finished Year 12!! Hooray!!

Quote: "Also, are you still a teenager!!? I wonder if I read your post right haha. I'm 23 and for some reason I've always pictured you as older than me."


lol yeah I'm 19 For some reason several people have thought I was much older

Would love to reply further, but Dad's putting on the next episode of Happy Valley and I've gotta go watch it. Very, very interesting miniseries. Excited for the next episode!


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 11:03
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Quote: ""School math classes expect you to blindly accept everything they teach you, generally with no explanation of why the things they are teaching you do what they do."


I find that that's the biggest difference between a good and bad maths teacher. The good teachers that I have had show show you a reason to use a specific technique and then show you the technique based on that while a bad teacher simply shows how to use the technique immediately without any motivation.

For example, When my old teacher taught us about solving equations like z^n=r*e^(ix), he showed us an example of such an equation and showed some important things, like the diffirence in angle of the resulting vectors being constant. Then he showed us a more general and formal way of solving it. A "bad" teacher would probably have started off with the formal defenition and way of solving it, then showed some examples and if there is enough time, perhaps they would show a formal proof of it.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 19:30
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On the subject of bad maths teachers, let me just verify that by pointing out that America's public education system is really, really bad. For an idea of an ideal public education system, look no further than Britain, or I believe Switzerland's is really good too.

I was in fact homeschooled, but I still had to rely on a lot of website to help with assignments and such like, same as any other student would, and the only place that I actually found that explains the why behind mathematical concept was the Khan Academy website/channel on YouTube. He has a great method of teaching the why and the how and the concepts behind things in an interesting way, so I highly recommend checking that out!


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Indicium
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 19:37
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Quote: " For an idea of an ideal public education system, look no further than Britain"


You think?
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 19:51
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Only when it's convenient

Lol but yes, Britain's educations system is quite excellent. Pretty much every other public education system other than America's is excellent.

Hopefully your tuition fees aren't stupidly high either. Ours are ridiculous and they expect everyone to sign up for financial aid, but what they don't tell you is that they like to deny you every year for four years, hence why I have never gone to college haha.


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Indicium
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 20:10
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We pay £9000 per year. Everybody is entitled to financial aid as long as you meet certain criteria.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 22:18
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Quote: "well technically it's distance-ed"


The distance ed units in Queensland are horrible. When I get sent them to mark I cringe at how some of the concepts are 'taught'.

I don't know who writes them, but I'd definitely like to have a go at rewriting the units to make them more useful.

Quote: "Part of the problem here at least is that teachers are often pressured to teach against standardized tests:"


I have never 'taught to the test' and there are some really terrible standardised tests, here in Australia. This might be incredibly harsh of me, but I always find that it's used as an excuse by bad teachers to say they had to teach to a test. If you teach a concept properly, students should be able to transfer the knowledge learned into different situations. The students in my class this year got fantastic results and some of them are going to move into academic excellence next year. I had similar results last year with my students. I know that's only two examples so it's not really reliable data, but I truly believe you don't need to teach to the test.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 00:26
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I like the point about teaching to the test. I think literally every high school teacher I have had has at some point said, "Well, school is all about passing the test, so here is what you need to know!" Of course, they all say it somewhat sarcastically and facetiously, but it still shows that said principle is deeply ingrained in American schools. American schools are factories that convert students into test passing machines.

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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 02:29
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Quote: "You think?"


I think it was sarcasm.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 09:16
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Quote: "American schools are factories that convert students into test passing machines."


The current education system in many countries is fundamentally flawed. We're still doing things based on education systems from bygone eras. There needs to be a massive shakeup, times have changed, students have changed and education needs to change with it.
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 10:18
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Quote: "American schools are factories that convert students into test passing machines."


Even worse is when the requirements are lowered because some people don't pass the tests. In my high school(?), the class was pretty "weak" and a lot of people failed their tests, especially in the swedish subject. Instead of spending the time teaching those students what they needed to know to pass the test, our teacher went on a rant about how terrible my class was and how much she worked to try and make them pass. Then she gave us a new test with lower requirements and was super happy when more people passed. If she noticed that a lot of people had troubble creating a structured text instead of writing everything as a list, she got mad, blamed the whole class for being terrible and then made a new test where the requirement of having a structured text was gone. I think that during the last year, she spent 40% of all the lesson time saying how disappointed she was in us.

The worst part for me was that in her obsession with making sure everyone passed, even the people who care at all, she completley forgot about people like me who actually wanted to do more than just pass the course. Since she made new tests for everything as soon as someone failed (which everyone had to take BTW), you would think that you would improve, but I don't think she ever told us what to improve. If we wrote an essay, she read it, gave it a grade and if we were lucky, she gave us back the essay but she never told us how to improve it.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
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Van B
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 10:47
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I found similar issues when I went to college, similar issues but different agendas.

Like, during my course 1 of the tutors had a nervous breakdown, another retired, and another emigrated to Australia. Nobody passed the course because of that... but that all suits the agenda of modern colleges... they don't want you to pass - they want you to fail then have to take another course so they can gleam as much funding from the government as possible. My younger brother went to the same college a couple of years ago - he struggled with one of the math classes, and the tutor basically told him that she'd rather spend time helping the students who have a chance of passing. Kinda makes you sick - what has to happen to a teacher to end up with an attitude like that.

One of the classes involved using DBPro - so obviously I helped teach my bro some DBPro, but apparently that wasn't good enough because it didn't adhere to the stupidity they were trying to instil. It was like, write a program to work out the date of birth of someone based on their age... and I helped him add a simple input statement to accept the age value, nice and neat - but no, you were supposed to change a variable in the code and compile and run for every test. I don't have much respect for that college, has to be said.

IMHO - we need Asian style education systems in the UK, and probably the US as well... where the teacher is made responsible for educating, where kids get ulcers from the stress, but at least they can contribute to society by the end of it.

I am the one who knocks...
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 11:13
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Wow, that sounds horrible. It sucks when a teacher denys your sollution to a problem because you didn't do it exactly the way you were supposed to, especially when you did more work than needed.

And the whole "it's better for us to make students fail" sounds terrible, I guess it's another reason that the free education in Sweden is nice, there is less profit in it for shady organizations.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 14:30 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2014 14:32
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Whey, I love it when my post's thesis statement gets quoted twice in a row!

Quote: "It sucks when a teacher denies your solution to a problem because you didn't do it exactly the way you were supposed to, especially when you did more work than needed."
Ugh, I hate this as well. I used to have a math teacher who did this. She expected all people to take precise and exact notes on all information she taught, and she expected all tests to be completed in exactly the taught way. She would then take a few hours grading each test (grading the entire class's tests would take her about two weeks), and she would meticulously analyze each student's work for each individual problem. If the question was worth, say, five points, actually getting the right answer was worth one or two points. The rest of the points came from doing the problem the way she had taught. I lost many points to her tests that way.

I applaud her effort for grading tests so meticulously, but the teaching method is not really correct there.

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Dar13
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 15:04
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I suppose I must have gotten pretty darned lucky in my math classes then, especially in college. My math professors aren't anything near as bad as you guys are describing, but they seem to like assigning tons of homework and assignments.

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TheComet
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 15:08
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Quote: "Ugh, I hate this as well. I used to have a math teacher who did this. She expected all people to take precise and exact notes on all information she taught, and she expected all tests to be completed in exactly the taught way. She would then take a few hours grading each test (grading the entire class's tests would take her about two weeks), and she would meticulously analyze each student's work for each individual problem. If the question was worth, say, five points, actually getting the right answer was worth one or two points. The rest of the points came from doing the problem the way she had taught. I lost many points to her tests that way.

I applaud her effort for grading tests so meticulously, but the teaching method is not really correct there."


I'd argue that this is a good thing. The teacher has a reason for teaching you a certain approach. Think about it, if for example the teacher is trying to make you solve a system of linear equations using the usual substitution/elimination methods, but you decide to use matrices instead, you're not learning the material the class is supposed to teach you.

Of course there might be better ways to approach a mathematical problem, but that's not the point. The point is to learn how to apply the method you're being taught.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linus Torvalds
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Dar13
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 17:54
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@TheComet
Unless the teacher specifically says to use a particular method when solving a problem, I don't think the teacher can reasonably say that the student was expected to use any particular technique over another that they might already know.

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Ortu
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 18:56
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And see that's part of the problem i have with academic math. Which is truly more meaningful and important: teaching and learning method X to solve problem Y, or teaching and learning an understanding of problem Y and the general ability to solve it?

Applying method X by rote simply because you are 'supposed' to is the sort of mechanical process that gets the job done but doesn't really support or facilitate innovation. It doesn't require critical thinking or problem solving, it requires problem recognition and method memorization. This is fine for given, known situations but without the deeper understanding of the problem itself, it makes it hard to apply or create a solution for new or unknown problems and situations.

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TheComet
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 19:39
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Those are all fine comments, but that kind of problem solving only becomes relevant in the later stages of education (or in the real world). Everything before uni is all about problem recognition and memorisation, and correct me if I'm wrong for assuming that DJD64 and The Zoq2 are still pre-uni.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linus Torvalds
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 22:03
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Quote: "Everything before uni is all about problem recognition and memorisation, and correct me if I'm wrong for assuming that DJD64 and The Zoq2 are still pre-uni."


Im in my first year of uni but I havn't experienced what im talking about in maths and verry little of it in programming. Maths to me is about learning how to solve problems using maths as a tool. Sure, for assignments in class, you might want to force a student to use a specific method but for a test, I think you should be allowed to use whatever method feels good to you as long as it's mathematically correct. I guess you could even make a question on a test that says something like "solve this problem using this method" but it should be clear that that's how you do it. What DJD is talking about seems more like "you did step 2 before step 1 but I taught you how to do it so im going to punish you for it" even though the process you used is still mathematically correct. I may have experienced the same thing in programming once or twice but I don't remember any specific examples of it

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
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Clonkex
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Posted: 4th Dec 2014 01:34
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Quote: "The distance ed units in Queensland are horrible. When I get sent them to mark I cringe at how some of the concepts are 'taught'.

I don't know who writes them, but I'd definitely like to have a go at rewriting the units to make them more useful."


For the record, I'm not with the standard state-run distance-ed (I assume there's such a thing) but rather Jubilee Christian College. I live in NSW, but when we switched to Jubilee from Australian Christian College, Jubilee (who's in QLD) was accepting students from other states. They won't be next year, but I'll have finished by then and AFAIK any students already enrolled get to stay with them.

Quote: "Everything before uni is all about problem recognition and memorisation"


EXACTLY! And it SHOULDN'T be! At least, IMO. That's where I totally fall down in maths; my brain is very good at problem solving (which is why I like programming) but terrible at memorising formulae (which is why I hate maths as it's taught currently). When I get problems where I'm told to just solve them, that's when I actually start to enjoy maths, and when I get the answers correct most of the time.

Now that's not to say formula memorisation is a bad thing - let's not reinvent the wheel - but when the books make you do EVERYTHING through memorised formulae, that's taking it too far.

Interesting point: In Australia, when we learn algebra, we learn it with geometry strongly mixed in. The American system (AFAIK) teaches algebra THEN geometry, as separate subjects. Which would you say is better? Personally I think our system is far better simply because algebra and geometry are intrinsically linked.


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Van B
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Posted: 4th Dec 2014 09:53
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I'm going back almost 30 years, but math was always segregated... Algebra, then Geometry, then Trig etc later on. IMO geometry, algebra, and trig should all be taught at the same time. I mean, what better way to express trig and geometry fundamentals than with algebra.

Back then, we had little books full of SIN values, because most of our calculators had no trig functions - so maybe it was just impractical back then to combine math subjects like that.

These days, there should be allowances for problem solving with code, especially where calculus is involved, and you might be showing or checking results as a graph. Programming could be used to actually explain those complex formulas in a way that a student can pick the problem apart and understand it. That's one issue I have with a lot of education systems - memorizing a formula and being able to explain it is not the same as truly understanding it.

Shouldn't a programming language be considered the next evolutionary phase in math? - we went from an abacus and books to calculators and then scientific calculators which nowadays are computers in their own right - surely the next phase would be an actual computer. Let me get my tinfoil hat before I say this though - I'm not sure that educational establishments and governments want a nation of problem solvers... they need meat for the grinder, not people who will want to get rid of the grinder.

I am the one who knocks...
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