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Geek Culture / Advice on building a compact computer as a sampler machine

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Seditious
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Posted: 27th Nov 2014 20:47 Edited at: 29th Nov 2014 16:34
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Hi guys, I was hoping someone here could advise me on parts to build a compact computer that I can carry around with me and use as a sampler (for a musical keyboard). Doesn't need to be terribly powerful although more stick in the processor means I can use a higher sample rate. What I need:

Case: Compact, Mini-ITX or similar /w PSU. Needs room for a PCI card (a dedicated sound card) (example)
Motherboard: Small form factor (Mini-ITX, MicroATX, etc) with onboard GPU and LAN. (example)
Memory: 4GB with room to upgrade. Speed is more important than capacity.
Storage: 64GB SSD.
CPU: Mid-range, reasonable price.

All components should of course have a reasonably low power consumption since it'll be using a small power supply. Although since I'll be using a single SSD and no optical drives or graphics cards I think I'll be saving some power. I'll be running Windows 7, for those interested.

I'm on a budget of about 250€ (~$310) but I can stretch it a bit if necessary. If I can build this machine for less than that then all the better. I'll probably be ordering from Amazon (either the UK or France) so if you can find parts and their prices on there that'd be great.

--

Also, I'd like to get some sort of portable touchscreen monitor to control the machine with, in case I need to adjust settings on the fly (or fix a problem). If not I could interface it from my smartphone, though it'd be better to have something that plugs directly in. I'm guessing something like that will be quite expensive though. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

--

Parts I'm looking at

Gigabyte-SKT-1155-H61N-D2V-Mini-Motherboard - Has some nice features that are relevant to the environment I'll be using it in, has a decent price, and supports the sort of processor I'm looking at. Only seems to have a PCI slot though, and no PCI-E if I'm correct.
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Clonkex
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Posted: 29th Nov 2014 05:59
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I don't have time to suggest specific parts, and can't really use Amazon in Australia anyway, so I'll just make some quick suggestions:

Go ASRock for the mobo. They make very good cheap boards.

DON'T get Kingston ValueRam for the RAM. It's crap and it'll die quickly. Get Corsair's value range if you've got the money, far better.

If you can stretch to Samsung's 840 Evo 128GB, that's a spectacular SSD and the more storage you have the faster it'll be.

Go Intel i3 or i5 if you can, they'll be far better for high sample rates than cheaper AMD CPUs.

I may come back later if I've got the time and search out specific models for you


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Posted: 29th Nov 2014 16:14 Edited at: 29th Nov 2014 16:58
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Thank you!

Quote: "Go ASRock for the mobo. They make very good cheap boards."


I've heard of ASRock before and from what I've seen they have a pretty good reputation. Just had a search for their motherboards and they are doing a particular one (ASRock AM1B-ITX) for just 36€, which seems insanely cheap for a motherboard. Of course, I'll have to find one compatible with Intel processors if I go that route.

Quote: "DON'T get Kingston ValueRam for the RAM. It's crap and it'll die quickly. Get Corsair's value range if you've got the money, far better."


Interesting you should say that, because when I was looking for an SSD a couple of months ago I had my eye on a Kingston, but read about their bait-and-switch antics and decided to go for a Western Digital instead since that particular drive had very good benchmark results. I'll have a look into Corsair memory. I'm guessing DDR3 will be my best bet for speed.

Quote: "If you can stretch to Samsung's 840 Evo 128GB, that's a spectacular SSD and the more storage you have the faster it'll be."


That's true, I hadn't thought of that. I'll take a look at the benchmarks and see what I can get in the 64-128GB range.

Quote: "Go Intel i3 or i5 if you can, they'll be far better for high sample rates than cheaper AMD CPUs."


I'm having a look at them right now but they all seem so expensive. The cheapest I can find is this one which is just under 100 euros. I have zero experience building computers though, so maybe that's a good price. I'm guessing CPU's are generally the most expensive part of the build? [edit] I see that for a little bit more I could get something like this which supports DDR3-1600 as opposed to 1333.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 29th Nov 2014 20:01
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Quote: "Go ASRock for the mobo. They make very good cheap boards."
Not in my experience! Mine was faulty nearly out of the box, and it never ceased to make my computing experience a nightmare. 10 crashes a day became too much, and I stopped using that computer.

Granted, it was probably a fluke for me... But oh well.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 29th Nov 2014 20:56
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I think ASRock is your best bet if you're going for a portal mini-itx system. They have some with external power supplies (like a laptop) so that can really cut down on the size of the case.


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Posted: 30th Nov 2014 17:57
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Ok so here's the CPU I'm currently looking at (Intel Core i3-3220, details), so I'm going to search for components compatible with that. It's not too expensive and seems reasonably powerful (and supports DDR3-1600), so I think it's a good choice unless anyone has other suggestions?

I've been looking at the ASRock H61M-VG3 motherboard (details) which seems pretty good. Has a PCI-e slot, supports DDR3-1600, and has on-board graphics and sound. It's Micro ATX which is a little larger than I wanted, but it's not huge, and the price is pretty good. Something along the specifications of this but in Mini-ITX would be preferred though, if the price is not too high.

Quote: "They have some with external power supplies (like a laptop) so that can really cut down on the size of the case."


That'd be really cool.
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Indicium
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Posted: 30th Nov 2014 21:15
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does memory clock make a difference in real performance?
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Clonkex
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Posted: 1st Dec 2014 12:47
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Quote: "Granted, it was probably a fluke for me..."


Probably. My brother and I have been using ASRock boards in our gaming PCs (which means heavy loads) since about the beginning of March and we've had no issues whatsoever. We also have an ASRock board in our NAS, and it's been just fine too.

Quote: "I'm having a look at them right now but they all seem so expensive."


...and that's the disadvantage with Intel CPUs. They're expensive. However, the much cheaper AMD range simply won't have the brute-force grunt necessary, and Intel CPUs are generally much more energy-efficient anyway.

Quote: "I'm guessing CPU's are generally the most expensive part of the build?"


They definitely can be, but usually only if you're not getting a gaming-class GPU. Graphics cards can be considerably more expensive than any other part of a system.

Quote: "Ok so here's the CPU I'm currently looking at (Intel Core i3-3220, details)"


Good CPU choice me thinks, however that particular one seems expensive to me. Maybe it's just inflated British prices, but the RRP is $117.

Quote: "I've been looking at the ASRock H61M-VG3 motherboard (details) which seems pretty good."


Looks like a good board to me

Quote: "does memory clock make a difference in real performance?"


There is debate about that. I've always assumed it doesn't make any real-world difference.


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Phaelax
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Posted: 1st Dec 2014 16:07
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I think memory clock speeds made more of a noticeable difference during the days of EDO, but today I doubt it. I think you'd have to be doing some pretty intensive things to notice it.


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Posted: 1st Dec 2014 17:41 Edited at: 1st Dec 2014 17:45
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Sampler software is very CPU/memory intensive so while ordinary applications (gaming included) won't benefit much from faster memory, I think this machine will. I'll be pushing the software to the highest sample rate and quality possible (processer power withstanding), so I'm hoping fast, low-latency memory will be of benefit.

Anyway, I've found some seemingly good candidates:

Motherboard

Mod 1150 ASRock H81M-ITX WiFi: http://www.amazon.co.uk/1150-ASRock-H81M-ITX-WiFi-MITX/dp/B00LET35A8/ref=sr_1_5?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1417377982&sr=1-5
66€ (£53) DDR-1600, USB 3, PCI-E 2.0, SATA 6Gb/s

Gigabyte SKT-1155 H61N-D2V: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigabyte-SKT-1155-H61N-D2V-Mini-Motherboard/dp/B008KA7ZGE/ref=sr_1_7?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1417377982&sr=1-7
47€ (£43) DDR3-1600, USB 2, PCI

Asrock H61MV-ITX: http://www.amazon.fr/Asrock-H61MV-ITX-Carte-Intel-Socket/dp/B00CAC8LJI/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1417379414&sr=1-2
€58 DDR3-1600, USB 2, PCI-E

Of these listed here, the first one doesn't mention supporting either the 3220, 3250, or any other Ivy Bridge CPU in the "CPU support list" (aww), the second one only mentions supporting the 3220 (I assume the 3250 will work too since it's almost exactly the same only with a higher clock speed), and the third one is listed as supporting both. It's a little more expensive but supports PCI-E cards which may or may not be useful for the future.

Processor

Intel Core i3 3250 http://www.amazon.fr/Intel-3-50GHz-Bridge-BX80637I33250-Technology/dp/B00CLD9QAY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417398862&sr=8-1&keywords=Intel+Core+i3-3250
€121 55W highest scoring ivy bridge i3 on cpubenchmark.net

Memory

G-Skill 4GB Ripjaws X DDR3 1600 Dual Kit - Blue http://www.amazon.co.uk/G-Skill-Ripjaws-DDR3-1600-Dual/dp/B002RPAWX6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417402812&sr=8-1&keywords=G-Skill+4GB+Ripjaws+X+blue
€56 7-8-7-24-2N latency (best I've found)

Storage

Corsair SSD Force LS 60GB SATA III MLC http://www.amazon.fr/Corsair-Disque-Force-SATA-CSSD-F60GBLS/dp/B00EENQ0U8/ref=sr_1_13?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1417406352&sr=1-13
45€ 4.6W

Case & PSU

To be decided.

At the moment my thoughts are with the 3rd mobo on that list. All in all the price comes to about 280€ and I still need to buy a case, psu, and sound card (the latter of which should cost around 70€). I'll no doubt be a little over budget but that's not a problem.

Thoughts?
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Phaelax
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 17:08
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Personally I'd get the first mobo you listed as it's got the newest chipset. But the H81 was built for haswell and your cpu selected there is an ivy bridge model. I think there's still some debate over which is better. If you're planning any overclocking, you'll want a Z-series chipset.

And if the software is as cpu intensive as you say, I'd go for an i5 if one fits your budget. But that's just my preference, I use an i7 in both desktop and laptop.

Is 60gb drive going to be enough space?


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Posted: 2nd Dec 2014 23:33 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2014 02:57
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I've taken a look at the Best Value CPU Chart (On Sale) on cpubenchmark.net and found that the i3-4150 is the best value i3 processor as well as one of the highest performing i3's, and uses the Haswell architecture, so I've been looking at other motherboards (although for some reason in my search I missed the first one I suggested here, so thanks for pointing that out Phaelax). Interestingly this particular CPU is about 8% cheaper than the one I was looking at, yet gets a PassMark score of ~5000 compared to ~4500 the other one had. And of course being much newer it probably has better features.

One of my problems is that I'm a little unsure how big the sound card will be, since I can't seem to get the proper dimensions of any. I'm considering the Maya44 for example but the product dimensions listed there are 24.8 x 20.2 x 4.4 cm, and I'm pretty sure the card isn't that ridiculously huge. I don't want to get a Mini-ITX case only for the card not to fit. I'm probably being silly and the card won't be any bigger than any other standard PCI card, but I'm not sure.

So I've found 4 candidate motherboards of different prices (P&P included) and form factors:

Mod 1150 ASRock H81M-ITX WiFi (mITX) (amazon) - 74.63€
ASRock B85M-ITX (mITX) (amazon) - 71.90€
Asus H81M-2 (mATX) (amazon) - 45.78€
Gigabyte B85M-HD3 (mATX) (amazon) - 57.16€

All support the i3-5140 processor, and DR3-1600, USB 3, PCI-E, and SATA Gb/s, which are some nice things to have. So right now I'm trying to decide whether I want mATX or M-ITX. The former has cheaper motherboards but the latter has a wider range of potential cases to chose from.

Quote: "And if the software is as cpu intensive as you say, I'd go for an i5 if one fits your budget. But that's just my preference, I use an i7 in both desktop and laptop."


If money weren't an issue I'd probably try an i5 or i7, but still I think a high-end i3 should be sufficient. I can always upgrade in the future, I guess.

Quote: "Is 60gb drive going to be enough space?"


Should be. It'll literally be just the OS (Windows 7 probably), the sampler software, and the samples. Some of the sample packs can be 2-3GB but it's unlikely I'll have many installed at any one time.
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2014 18:17
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Quote: " but the product dimensions listed there are 24.8 x 20.2 x 4.4 cm"

Those are obviously wrong. While the length of the card can be 24cm, there is no way the height of the card can be more than 12cm and fit a PCI slot. From the picture it looks fairly square so I would deduce it's maybe no more than 15cm long at most. But that's just a guess.


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Posted: 4th Dec 2014 20:15 Edited at: 5th Dec 2014 03:20
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I've decided I'm going to get this Micro ATX case which comes with a 300W power supply (apparently a bit noisy but oh well). Since it's not Mini-ITX I could get one of the cheaper boards, so right now it's a toss up between these two:

Mod 1150 ASRock H81M-ITX WiFi (Mini-ITX)
Gigabyte B85M-HD3 (Micro ATX)

The gigabyte one is about 30% cheaper (edit: just checked and with shipping the first one is actually the cheaper one if I order from the UK) but I'm not sure which is better in terms of features. There's also an ASUS one that is even cheaper still but I've heard of people having conflicts with ASUS motherboards and the sound card I'm looking at, so I'm steering clear of that.

So which one?

[edit] Of course, I think this case looks much more apt, but I'm not 100% sure if it has room for an expansion slot.

Quote: "Those are obviously wrong. While the length of the card can be 24cm, there is no way the height of the card can be more than 12cm and fit a PCI slot. From the picture it looks fairly square so I would deduce it's maybe no more than 15cm long at most. But that's just a guess."


True, I hadn't thought of that.
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Clonkex
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Posted: 5th Dec 2014 03:48
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Looks good. If I had to choose between those two boards, I'd probably be inclined to go with the Gigabyte one, but in reality it probably won't make much difference.


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Posted: 5th Dec 2014 06:54
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I've had too many Gigabytes fail on me to ever recommend them.


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Posted: 5th Dec 2014 07:28 Edited at: 5th Dec 2014 07:47
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Ok thank you guys! I'm ready to order now, so if any of you could check for me (in case I've missed something) if any of these parts may be incompatible, that would be greatly appreciated. Also, am I missing anything?

All prices include P&P.

Motherboard: £40.37 (€51.01) ASRock H81M-ITX WiFi

CPU: €115.90 Intel Core i3-4150

Memory: €56.30 G-Skill 4GB Ripjaws X DDR3 1600 Dual Kit - Blue

Storage: €51.99 SanDisk 128GB SSD

Case/PSU: £38.19 (€48.27) CiT Mini ITX Case (Micro ATX)

Extras:

SSD Cable (SATA): €3.44 http://www.amazon.fr/Serial-Sata-Hard-Drive-Cable/dp/B002UUSX5C/
Anti-static wristband €3.72 http://www.amazon.fr/mercury-710-131UK-Antistatic-Wrist-Band-blue/dp/B000L98002/ (because why not?)

Thanks!
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Posted: 5th Dec 2014 10:22
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In 15 years of doing PC builds... Not once have I needed an anti-static band lol... And I have to date built over 2,500 systems... All of which never failed...

Give me a few hours and I will see if I can put something together for you...

Where are you based btw? So I can convert currency...

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Posted: 5th Dec 2014 13:25
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Thanks but don't worry about it; I've scoured both the UK and French (where I live) Amazon sites for the most affordable parts with the appropriate specifications and good benchmark scores and reviews. Just need someone to tell me my selection of parts won't cause a nuclear explosion when put together.
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Why don't you get an Intel NUC and get a USB sound chip instead... Much smaller, much less power usage...

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Posted: 5th Dec 2014 14:11 Edited at: 5th Dec 2014 14:13
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Quote: "Just need someone to tell me my selection of parts won't cause a nuclear explosion when put together."


The only issue I see is that your motherboard only has 2 RAM slots so I don't think you should get two 2GB sticks of ram. Instead, get one 4GB stick of RAM, that way if you want to add more later you still have a slot available.

Also, motherboards usually come with a few SATA cables. However, I've never bought a Mini ITX board before so that one might not.

EDIT: According to this page under "Accessories" it comes with 2 SATA cables
http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/H81M-ITXWiFi/?cat=Specifications


Sean

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Posted: 5th Dec 2014 14:27
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Quote: "Why don't you get an Intel NUC and get a USB sound chip instead... Much smaller, much less power usage..."


Could do, but I think I'll have a better time with a professional PCI(e) card, and also this way I can modify/upgrade it if I ever need to.

Quote: "The only issue I see is that your motherboard only has 2 RAM slots so I don't think you should get two 2GB sticks of ram. Instead, get one 4GB stick of RAM, that way if you want to add more later you still have a slot available."


I realise I'll have to replace both sticks when it comes to upgrading (if ever necessary...) but it performs better in pairs.

Quote: "Also, motherboards usually come with a few SATA cables. However, I've never bought a Mini ITX board before so that one might not.

EDIT: According to this page under "Accessories" it comes with 2 SATA cables
http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/H81M-ITXWiFi/?cat=Specifications"


Thanks, I hadn't noticed that!
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Quote: "In 15 years of doing PC builds... Not once have I needed an anti-static band lol... And I have to date built over 2,500 systems"

That's like 1 computer every 2 days. You must work on dell's assembly line or something.

For the price you're paying for 2x2GB sticks of ram, you can most definitely get 2x4GB for the same price.
Just one of the first ones I've found:
Corsair DDR 1600 2x4GB low profile performance memory - £62.32

I don't know much about sampling, but I'm pretty sure loading lots of audio files into memory takes up a fair bit of space. And I think 4gb is too low for any modern system.


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Posted: 5th Dec 2014 23:59
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I've done some benchmarks on my system and none of the sample packs I use load more than 300MB of data at a time (some kind of 'smart' loading system. Not sure how that works, but it runs pretty well even on my outdated system. I just want some high-bandwidth, low-latency RAM to be sure I'm getting the fastest processing speed possible... as long as the CPU can keep up of course.

Anyway, I've placed the order! The items should arrive some time next week, so I'll post about how much of the house I burned down while trying to set it up.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 6th Dec 2014 03:42
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Quote: "You must work on dell's assembly line or something."
He owns or works at a small computer shop, if I recall.

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Posted: 6th Dec 2014 09:44
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Yup, my own company plus 1,500~ of them were for universities'...

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Posted: 10th Dec 2014 07:14
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Quote: "In 15 years of doing PC builds... Not once have I needed an anti-static band lol..."


I can't claim anywhere near as many PC builds as you, but I've also worked on PCs for years without anti-static bands and never killed anything. Even so, I use one now since they cost next to nothing and it might just save me from killing a brand new expensive graphics card one day. Better safe than sorry.


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Posted: 10th Dec 2014 09:26 Edited at: 10th Dec 2014 09:28
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Apparently the thing with electrostatic discharge is that it can cause invisible problems without outright breaking a component, so you never really know.

Should receive the last of the parts on Saturday, so I'll post again here at the weekend with pictures. [edit] Well actually the PS/2 splitter cable I ordered seems to be coming from Hong Kong, so I'll receive that at some point in January. Still, shouldn't be too essential.
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Posted: 10th Dec 2014 09:48 Edited at: 10th Dec 2014 09:49
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Quote: "Apparently the thing with electrostatic discharge is that it can cause invisible problems without outright breaking a component, so you never really know."


I nearly said that. So yeah, you might not have outright destroyed the mobo by handling it with your grubby little fingers and no ESD protection, but that single fried nanoscopic wire going to the ram might just be the cause of all those BSODs you've been getting. (FTR: Not speaking to anyone in particular, just inventing a random example)

Quote: "Should receive the last of the parts on Saturday, so I'll post again here at the weekend with pictures."


Awesome wait what. You get deliveries on SATURDAY?? AFAIK, no mail or courier service in Australia operates on weekends at all. Can't wait to see the pics though. Must be exciting!

Quote: "Well actually the PS/2 splitter cable I ordered seems to be coming from Hong Kong, so I'll receive that at some point in January. Still, shouldn't be too essential."


Why. WHY are you using PS/2 peripherals? They're not even PnP. That's SO '95.

BTW: In a good mood right now so this post is totally not (very) serious Or even well-written. Man, I need to get my readability back up to scratch


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Posted: 10th Dec 2014 12:04 Edited at: 10th Dec 2014 12:05
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Well, the memory that was estimated to arrive Saturday has arrived, so I should have the rest of the parts tomorrow and be ready to build the computer.

Is it normal that the memory was just sent (in a blister pack) in a simple cardboard envelope with no padding? I'm guessing memory modules must be quite durable but still...

Quote: "Why. WHY are you using PS/2 peripherals? They're not even PnP. That's SO '95."


It's all I have in the house, I think. I received a keyboard/mouse with my computer in 2007, and then another set when they gave me a replacement computer after failing to fix mine. I think I have an old USB mouse around here somewhere so I'll use that with the PS/2 keyboard.

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What's more, we live out in the sticks yet we still get Saturday delivery.

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It is!
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Kezzla
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Posted: 11th Dec 2014 09:57
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The biggest factor for latency in recording will be your audio interface. I recommend a firewire set up.

I used to have a reasonable computer and a Tascam firewire audio interface. The latency was negligible even with excessive FX processors used on a project.

I now have a better computer but am using a usb2 audio interface and struggle terribly with latency on the wet track.

Good computer is good, but good soundcard makes the real difference.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 11th Dec 2014 23:45
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Spend the extra $15 and go buy a usb keyboard and mouse!


"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
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Clonkex
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Posted: 12th Dec 2014 02:36
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Quote: "Is it normal that the memory was just sent (in a blister pack) in a simple cardboard envelope with no padding?"


Yes.

Quote: "I recommend a firewire set up."


Really? Does anyone even use firewire any more?


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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Dec 2014 05:37
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Quote: "Really? Does anyone even use firewire any more?
"


Are you saying you recommend the joystick port on the sound card instead? I agree. Gotta get a gravis

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Kezzla
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Posted: 12th Dec 2014 10:18 Edited at: 12th Dec 2014 10:20
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Quote: "Really? Does anyone even use firewire any more?"


I have an all in one computer at the moment so cannot install a firewire card, otherwise I would be using my old Tascam still.

I could record 8 tracks at once each with VST EQs,compressors, some with chorus and delays, some with reverb etc. you could listen to the wet track and not notice the latency.

With my Propellorhead 2ch interface I can hear the latency before I have even recorded anything. It is super frustrating.

It may just be that the tascam is an exceptional interface, but I cant seem to get the same performance from anything else outside of actual studio gear.

I'm rusty on my data transfer knowledge, but I believe it comes down to Firewire being better suited for streaming data than USB is. Maybe they have drawn even in recent years with usb3 I dont know.


I am just putting my 2c in as with all this talk and concern about performance I saw no mention of your audio interface. which is the performance trump card.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Dec 2014 14:58
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USB3 and Thunderbolt are enormously faster than firewire. I haven't seen any latency charts but it would be very disappointing if these newer standards have a longer latency. Also if Sed uses a PCI-e sound card, that would have a better latency still.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 12th Dec 2014 18:14
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firewire can't even come close to competing with usb3, which is more widely supported these days anyway. It's comparing 800Mbps vs 5Gbps. I think thunderbolt is faster, but I'm not really sure.


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Indicium
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Posted: 12th Dec 2014 21:57
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Thunderbolt is very much faster. 20Gbit/s.
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Clonkex
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Posted: 15th Dec 2014 12:23
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Quote: "Are you saying you recommend the joystick port on the sound card instead?"


lol no. I forgot sound cards even used to have a joystick port. I meant literally what I said, because I thought firewire was ancient and massively outdated. I didn't know anyone still used it for anything. I've never even seen a firewire port, let alone a firewire device.

Why not use USB like everyone else?


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 15th Dec 2014 14:38
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Quote: "Why not use USB like everyone else?"
Conformity to Apple

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