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Geek Culture / The RC Multirotor Thread

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 04:12
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Quote: "I'd seriously love to have a 3D printer."
Would be cool. How many cubic centimeters of volume does the average quad frame take up? A number you know off the top of your head, right? Shapeways has a place on their site that talks about the cost of printing something per cubic centimeter. They also print using a method that is far more accurate and sturdy than the method that most home printers use. Their strong and flexible material is probably perfect for this application.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 06:25
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Quote: "They also print using a method that is far more accurate and sturdy than the method that most home printers use. Their strong and flexible material is probably perfect for this application."


Link? Curious.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 07:05
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Yes, here!

As for their method being better more accurate and sturdy, that's only as far as I know. They use a selective laser sintering process with nylon powder (for their strong & flexible material), compared to the robotic hot glue gun approach that home printers use.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 14:27
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Quote: "Yes, here!"


Cool thanks

Ah, just spent ages and ages reading all about the different materials. Too long. I have other stuff to do


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 18:06 Edited at: 27th Mar 2015 18:09
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Quote: "I'd be checking carefully for shorts on the board itself (like maybe one of your screws is somehow touching something). That's what it sounds like to me."


The FC should be totally fine because I didn't connect the BEC from the shorted ESC to the board. I checked the flight controller and everything looks fine. I have also done a few flights since it happned and havn't had any issues. I was probably just lucky with my low quality wires.

Quote: "Would be cool. How many cubic centimeters of volume does the average quad frame take up? A number you know off the top of your head, right? "


The arms on my 3d printed quad are 10cm long plus the brackets that attach it to the body and the motor brackets. The bottom part of the body is about 4.5x6.5cm and the top is 4.5x4.5cm. All the parts are about 1.5cm tall.

Unfortunley I crashed and broke two arms yesterday and some bearings on my 3d printer broke the day before which means I can't print replacement arms until the new bearings arrive

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 19:21
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Quote: "Ah, just spent ages and ages reading all about the different materials. Too long."
Haha, that is addictive for some reason, eh?

I did some basic calculations on those numbers Zoq; it seems to be right around (a bit below) 100 cubic centimeters. The actual printed frame would probably be largely hollow, so at a very very rough estimate, we'll say a printed frame would be made of about 40 cubic centimeters of material. So that, with the price of Shapeways' strong and flexible material, would cost about $12.70 USD plus tax and shipping. Not bad, I'd say! Especially being totally custom at that point.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 20:40
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Yea, 100 cm³ seems about right, depending on how they pack it it could probably be made even smaller. Here is what all the parts look like when layed out in the printer software. The gray box is 20x20 cm. And 12$ is pretty cheap but it's more fun to print everything on your own. It would be pretty cool to get it printed with shapeway to see how durable the material is at some point but i'll have to make sure that I have a "final" design before I do that

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Clonkex
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Posted: 28th Mar 2015 02:00
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@The Zoq2:

What 3D printer do you have? I'd be really curious to find out how much they cost


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 28th Mar 2015 11:14
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I have the velleman Vertex k8400 which cost 6500 SEK or roughly 750 USD. That is including the relativley high taxes in sweden though. I wouldn't really recommend it though because of a few issues. When I got it, some of the parts were pretty bad, they worked but not without issues. The gears that pull belts around were to brittle so I stripped some of the screw threads when I screwed them on. That issues should have been fixed now though. I also had an issue with some bearings on it which were "choppy". 1 bearing worked fine, one was a bit but nearly not noticeably choppy and two of them were incredibly choppy. This caused some issues with the print quality on some specicifc layers.

I tried contacting velleman on their forums, they told me they would send replacements if I emailed them my address but that was a month ago and I still havn't heard back. A few days ago, one of the bearings broke even more and all the balls got stuck making it completley useless.

A lot of people seem to recommend the printrbot as a good DIY intro printer which is about the same price as mine.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 28th Mar 2015 12:46
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Cool thanks I've looked at getting a 3D printer many, many times before, but the prices change constantly and there's always new models and designs coming on the market so it's hard to keep up.

Right now I'm researching building my own 3D printer, maybe with an Arduino. There's any number of designs involving recycled parts from computers (IIRC some of them use DVD/CD drive motors and the like) and it's exactly the sort of project I love. If I can build a decent (if small) 3D printer for under $100 I'll be happy

Incidentally if I do decide to actually attempt this, I'll post lots of pictures and show what I invariably will get wrong


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bitJericho
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Posted: 28th Mar 2015 15:06
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Quote: "If I can build a decent (if small) 3D printer for under $100 I'll be happy."


Man I thought it'd be cheap to do, I'm already at like the 400 dollar mark and I'm not even 25 percent. Of course, I have no sense of reserve

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 28th Mar 2015 17:21
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Building a 3d printer sounds like a really interesting project, but it also sounds really hard. I have had quite a few issues with tiny calibration issues on my printer, things like the build plate being a less than a milimeter off leading to the prints either comming lose during the print or getting stuck.

Also, you would need the heated nozzle which alone costs about 100$ on my printer.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 29th Mar 2015 11:42
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Quote: "Building a 3d printer sounds like a really interesting project, but it also sounds really hard. I have had quite a few issues with tiny calibration issues on my printer, things like the build plate being a less than a milimeter off leading to the prints either comming lose during the print or getting stuck."


Yeah I know they have to be pretty much perfect to work properly, but I think that's something I can achieve. The hard part is working out what to build a frame out of...

For the stepper motors, you can buy them on eBay but a lot of people use the motors from CD drives.

Looots more research to do before I can decide whether building my own 3D printer will be viable

Incidentally, how much does the filament cost for you? What I mean is, how much does it cost to print objects (how much for one quadcopter arm, for example)?


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 29th Mar 2015 12:44
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Fillament costs are virtually negligible, an arm weighs a bit more than 10g and 1kg of fillament costs 300SEK or ~34 USD. That means that one arm costs about 0.3$ to print. I have had my printer since Christmas and have only used half a fillament spool.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 29th Mar 2015 13:59
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Quote: "Fillament costs are virtually negligible, an arm weighs a bit more than 10g and 1kg of fillament costs 300SEK or ~34 USD. That means that one arm costs about 0.3$ to print. I have had my printer since Christmas and have only used half a fillament spool."


AWESOME! That's what I wanted to hear! Thanks for the info man!

Another reason I'm happy: I just went and listed parts of my quad that didn't sell on RCGroups (all of them) on eBay and within 10 minutes someone had bought my FPV stuff! That was the most expensive part (listed for $150 or best offer, guy offered $135 which was quite reasonable) which means I am edging ever closer to having the cash for a 3D printer of my very own!


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 29th Mar 2015 19:43 Edited at: 29th Mar 2015 19:45
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What would be really epic is of you built your own laser sintering 3D printer. I don't know, something about filament based 3D printers bothers me (I do have some OCD tendencies). Alas, it's not really possible to build a laser sintering printer yourself currently. But hey, building one of the filament printers is cool too.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 30th Mar 2015 02:19
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Quote: "What would be really epic is of you built your own laser sintering 3D printer."


Yeah it would! Then again I'd have to deal with either a messy powder or a messy liquid

Quote: "I don't know, something about filament based 3D printers bothers me (I do have some OCD tendencies)."


I totally understand what you mean! It's like... it's like laser sintering is a clean and "proper" approach, whereas FDM printers are the constantly-trying-to-fail, "hacked" approach.

Quote: "But hey, building one of the filament printers is cool too."


Well it will be when you see my plans!


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 30th Mar 2015 15:29
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Quote: "Then again I'd have to deal with either a messy powder or a messy liquid "

Quote: "it's like laser sintering is a clean"


I just had to . I do see what you mean though

I got the new bearings I had ordered today and an hour after I picked them up, velleman finally replied to my emails about the bearings so I will have tons of them now

They seem to be having some quality issues with them though, one of the new bearings I purchased are showing some of the same symptoms as the broken ones did.

I also rewrote most of my quad body code (it feels weird talking about the code when the result is a 3d model ) to be more expandable and to fit my new (hopefully) stronger arms.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 30th Mar 2015 17:42
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Quote: "I just had to . I do see what you mean though"


lol, took me a while to work out what you were going on about Didn't realise I'd so blatantly contradicted myself

Quote: "They seem to be having some quality issues with them though, one of the new bearings I purchased are showing some of the same symptoms as the broken ones did."


Are they not standard bearings? Couldn't you replace them with higher-quality bearings from eBay or something?

---------------------------------------

Finally finished researching 3D printers... it's ridiculously hard to find information on exactly what parts you need, even harder than quadcopters! Anyway I came up with three options. Option #1 costs $550, option #2 costs $500 and option #3 costs $415. I'm liking option #3 the best despite the lack of a display for the RAMPS board, lack of heatbed and using standard threaded steel rod instead of lead screw for the Z (up/down) axis. Now I just have to work out how on earth I'm going to afford this thing! Maybe I can get my brother to help pay for it, since he has more money than I do...


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swissolo
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2015 01:02
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I need this

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Clonkex
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2015 14:56
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Quote: "I need this"


Oh yeah I saw that in the newsletter lol


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swissolo
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 01:39
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Been flying my quad. So fast, so smooth

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 20:53
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Sounds awesome, do you have any FPV gear on it?

I found a way to mount my FPV gear on my 3d printed quad and it's a ton of fun to fly around the trees in a nearby "park". It seems like my current design works really well, I have only broken 1 arm in two weeks even though I have had quite a few crashes. I also let my mom and brother fly it which was a pretty good durability test. And when I do break an arm, I can print another in ~3 hours so breaking one every once in a while is not really an issue

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Clonkex
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Posted: 16th Apr 2015 07:34
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Speaking of 3D printing, I currently have all the parts of my ~$500 3D printer sitting around my room and on my desk, except for a couple of closed-loop GT2 belts coming from China.

Gonna make a 3D printing thread before I start building it so you can get pictures


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swissolo
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Posted: 16th Apr 2015 20:04 Edited at: 16th Apr 2015 23:39
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Quote: "Sounds awesome, do you have any FPV gear on it?"

Nope. Couldn't afford it I don't really have space on the quad anyways

Edit: Oh I have to share this too. The RunCam HD is out only $50! If you see anything mentioned about a slight sharpness issue, that was apparently a defect in some review, pre-release cameras they sent out that has since been addressed.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 02:43
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Quote: "Oh I have to share this too. The RunCam HD is out"


Never heard of it. Looks like a Mobius.

Quote: "only $50!"


$65 AUD.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 03:22
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Blasting Jones! Only 50 American Greenbacks to get an FPV unit? Blimey!

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swissolo
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 03:28
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Quote: "$65 AUD."

310 Yuan.

Quote: "Never heard of it. Looks like a Mobius."

It's modeled off the Mobius.

Quote: "Blasting Jones! Only 50 American Greenbacks to get an FPV unit? Blimey"

It's mostly for recording. You could use it for FPV, but it would have to be rather casual fpv because anything that high res runs into output latency issues

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 17:44 Edited at: 17th Apr 2015 17:49
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Quote: " It's mostly for recording. You could use it for FPV, but it would have to be rather casual fpv because anything that high res runs into output latency issues"


I use a mobiius as an FPV camera and have no latency issues. But im only transmitting 640x480 resolution or something like that

Quote: "Blasting Jones! Only 50 American Greenbacks to get an FPV unit? Blimey!"


Well, you would need a transmitter and reciever plus something to display the image on

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 20:48
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Ahh. I saw the word "FPV" on their site, and jumped to the conclusion that it was a complete FPV set up.

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swissolo
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 22:53
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Quote: "I use a mobiius as an FPV camera and have no latency issues."

I think it really depends upon what kind of flying you're doing. I believe a Mobius ends up with 200 or 300 ms of lag. I can't quite remember the benchmark. Maybe it was 150. Either way, it's high enough that for intense proximity sessions it would become noticeable. It's probably unnoticeable otherwise.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 21st Apr 2015 18:54
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This weekend wasn't good for my multirotors First I went a bit to crazy with my mini quad and crashed into a metal bar which broke one of the arms. That wouldn't have been a problem except one of the receiver antennas was attached to it and got snapped. Now I have to fly with a broken antenna (there are 2) until I can get a replacement which are not available in sweden.

After that I went out to fly my big tricopter but something weird has happned while I wasn't flying it. The motor power is really uneven making altitude very hard to controll and the whole heli starts wobbeling. I have no idea what might be causing it

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Clonkex
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 02:44
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Quote: "First I went a bit to crazy with my mini quad and crashed into a metal bar which broke one of the arms. That wouldn't have been a problem except one of the receiver antennas was attached to it and got snapped. Now I have to fly with a broken antenna (there are 2) until I can get a replacement which are not available in sweden."


Ouch, nasty. I guess the arm isn't a problem because you can just print another one in... what was it? 3 hours? The receiver antenna on the other hand... yeah, I bet that's not very fun

Quote: "After that I went out to fly my big tricopter but something weird has happned while I wasn't flying it. The motor power is really uneven making altitude very hard to controll and the whole heli starts wobbeling. I have no idea what might be causing it"


Huh, weird. My only thought is that maybe one of the props (or possibly a motor) is unbalanced, causing the gyro/accelerometer to spaz out, in turn causing uneven motor power.


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 10:19
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Quote: "Ouch, nasty. I guess the arm isn't a problem because you can just print another one in... what was it? 3 hours?"


Yea, something like that. The best thing to do is to print 3 arms during the night.

Quote: "Huh, weird. My only thought is that maybe one of the props (or possibly a motor) is unbalanced, causing the gyro/accelerometer to spaz out, in turn causing uneven motor power."


Yea, unbalance is possible. I tested it without props and the problem wasn't there so if it is unbalanced it has to be a prop.

I might check if it's the FC being bad trying the naze on my quad

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2015 16:17
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I decided to try changing the props on my tri but that didn't help. Luckily I decided to try and mess with the PID values which seems to have completley solved the issue I was having. Now I will just have to wait for a less windy day to tune them again

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swissolo
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2015 19:11
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Quote: "I decided to try changing the props on my tri but that didn't help. Luckily I decided to try and mess with the PID values which seems to have completley solved the issue I was having. Now I will just have to wait for a less windy day to tune them again"

I was going to mention that that really sounded like a PID problem. I don't know why the values would have changed all of a sudden though. I've been running on the Naze32 PID defaults and never felt the need to change them since they're already tuned so well. Perhaps that's not the case for a tricopter though

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2015 19:27
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Yea, them changing like that makes no sense at all.

The default PIDs are indeed very good on the naze and I flew with stock on both my quad and tri for quite a while. The only thing that didn't work on stock was the yaw on the tricopter which was way to low.

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BatVink
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Posted: 24th Apr 2015 16:29
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This hobby gets expensive very quickly.

Having sent my GoPro up on my Phantom, I got reasonable results. But now I want more out of it, so I've just ordered a Camera Gimbal to counteract the quad movement. I'm going to need a second job soon!

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Clonkex
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Posted: 24th Apr 2015 16:33
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Quote: "This hobby gets expensive very quickly."


Very much so!

Quote: "But now I want more out of it, so I've just ordered a Camera Gimbal to counteract the quad movement."


Ooh that'll be awesome! You'll have to show us some videos taken with it!


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 24th Apr 2015 17:00
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Quote: "This hobby gets expensive very quickly"


This man speaks the truth

I too have been thinking about adding a gimball to my tricopter but I would like to try and build one from scratch which I don't really have the time for

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BatVink
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Posted: 26th Apr 2015 01:31
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I need it to be better than this below. It gets quite breezy in my part of the world. This first video (taken on solar eclipse day) shows how hovering is too unstable for video footage. Video is unedited, so turn the sound down!

The gimbal I have bought uses channel 7 for pitch, so I have some control over it's field of view.



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The Zoq2
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 00:24
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Aand my tri is stuck in a tree. A nice neighbour who saw me crash into the tree was able to throw a few balls up to try and get it down but nothing sucessfull. I tried taping the longest poles I could find at home together and try and nudge it down but it was to dark to see what I was doing. I'll have to try it again tomorrow

Atleast it's not going to rain for a while

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Clonkex
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 10:08
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Quote: "It gets quite breezy in my part of the world."


Wow, looks like Scotland or somewhere like that! Cold, windy and barren. Love it! (Though I probably wouldn't want to live there)

Quote: "This first video (taken on solar eclipse day) shows how hovering is too unstable for video footage."


You should try somewhere less windy. I doubt any quad will manage stable footage in windy conditions.

Quote: "Aand my tri is stuck in a tree."


ROFL hahahah! Hope you can get it down in the morning


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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 14:09
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Quote: "Wow, looks like Scotland or somewhere like that! Cold, windy and barren. Love it! (Though I probably wouldn't want to live there)"


These are some of the places I want to video (these photos are other people's from the internet)











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Clonkex
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 14:57
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Out of those, the second and second-last photos are my favourite scenes. The third could be something from The Hobbit. I'd love to have places like that to film in. Admittedly if I got serious about filming I'm sure I could find some equally interesting areas around where I live given we live in what they call Celtic Country. They also call it granite country because the ground around here is packed full of massive amounts of granite (which makes farming extremely difficult) and there's huge granite boulders stacked on top of each other (balancing precariously) in many places around here.

Then again Australia is chocka-block full of trees and I don't know of anywhere that looks as barren as that second-last photo.


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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 19:06
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Everywhere has great places to film. We tend to ignore our own locality, where tourists see things we miss every day. To prove the point, here's a quick rundown of some of those photos above, all within a few miles of my home...

Quote: "I don't know of anywhere that looks as barren as that second-last photo"


That is Heathcliff's house from Wuthering Heights. It's a classic novel by Emily Bronte, and topic of this song by Kate Bush. If you're really interested in history (you may be dropping off by now ), it's also very close to the location where Patrick Bronte revolutionised health among the poverty-stricken by devising a system for keeping manufacturing and drinking water separate.

As for the one with the cliffs, you might recognise better from the top in this shot:



And finally, you'll have seen the steam railway many times...
Richard Gere in Yanks
The Railway Children
Plus Poirot, Testament of Youth and many more.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 21:45
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Yeay, I got the heli down from that tree. I had to chain 5 or 6 of the longest poles I could find around my house and put a big hook attached to a string on the top of the poles. I used the pole to get the hook onto one of the arms and then pulled it down using the string.

In case you didn't know, controlling a 12m long stick which is quite happy to bend is not an easy task but luckily I had my brother to help me keep it in place using the string.

You seem to have a lot of nice places that are suitable for arial filming

The interesting spots where I live are mostly in the town, outside there is mostly just farmland and forests (which I now know to avoid )

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BatVink
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Posted: 28th Apr 2015 00:15
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Quote: "Yeay, I got the heli down from that tree"


Congrats, must have been a traumatic time while it was stuck up there. I think I would have been camped under the tree.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 28th Apr 2015 00:36
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Suprisingly I remained pretty calm during the whole thing and I wasn't really afraid of leaving it during the night and while in school either. The guy that helped me try and get it down by throwing balls at it even mentioned that I was really calm based on what happned

I guess I have read enough stories about multicopters getting stuck or flying away that I was sort of prepared for it...

It was also pretty fun to come up with a way to get it down

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Clonkex
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Posted: 28th Apr 2015 05:46
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Quote: "As for the one with the cliffs, you might recognise better from the top in this shot:"


Huh, never thought about where Harry Potter was filmed. We all know LOTR/The Hobbit was filmed in New Zealand, but I never thought about Harry Potter...

Quote: "Suprisingly I remained pretty calm during the whole thing and I wasn't really afraid of leaving it during the night and while in school either."


I wouldn't say that's surprising. If you had so much trouble getting it down it's hardly likely to be stolen, and it's not really going to be damaged by sitting in a tree.

And as you say, you expect these things to happen.


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