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Geek Culture / GameGuru and DBPro

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James H
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2015 20:03
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Quote: "Am I the only person that reads GG on the forum and thinks of Green Gandalf first instead of Game Guru"

I did have a moment there where I thought what did he just say!!
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mr Handy
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2015 20:03
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Also GG (jiji) means old man in Japanese.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 02:12
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Quote: "Also GG (jiji) means old man in Japanese."


Same here.

More interestingly though, it also means this

Gigi





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Seditious
10
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 02:30
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Quote: "Like if you make bad app but on fresh compiler version it will be better?
Like if you make good app but on old compiler version it will be worse?"


You're saying you don't think Lee (the creator of the language) knows how to use DBPro to its full potential?
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Clonkex
Forum Vice President
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 04:06
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Quote: "Like if you make bad app but on fresh compiler version it will be better?
Like if you make good app but on old compiler version it will be worse?"


No, but if you make a good app on a bad engine, the good app will reach the limits of the engine and not be so good.

Quote: "The key problem of DBP is that there is no pro game developers here, so it looks like a poor tool (which is not)."


I love DBPro, but it's not really suited to professional development, primarily because it's too slow. Lee is struggling to extract enough performance out of it. Perhaps that's his own fault (bad coding), but you'd hope that Lee would know how to write fast code by now.

Quote: "You're saying you don't think Lee (the creator of the language) knows how to use DBPro to its full potential?"


You'd be surprised how much you can forget in only a few years...


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BatVink
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 12:20
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Quote: "Perhaps that's his own fault (bad coding), but you'd hope that Lee would know how to write fast code by now"


DBPro is a Basic language built on top of a suite of C++ functions. Then, GG is built on top of that. There's only so much you can do when you are ensuring that it is usable by people who want to make a personalised game in minutes. Remember, the users here on the forum that make the better games are the exception. 95% of users want to drag and drop for 15 minutes, then play. The GG developers have limited control over what the end user will do with it, and the ones that want fast results will do it far more thoughtlessly and without consideration for the consequences. For this 95% of users, you have to code in as many safeguards as possible, which will ultimately affect performance.

Lee knows what he is doing, but he also has to predict what others will do with less knowledge of teh underlying technology.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 15:47 Edited at: 4th Apr 2015 15:50
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Quote: "No, but if you make a good app on a bad engine, the good app will reach the limits of the engine and not be so good."

Beep! A wild logical error appeared. Handy used bold! It's super effective!

Hey, I made you a tasty sandwich with crap instead of butter.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 16:09
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Quote: "DBPro is a Basic language built on top of a suite of C++ functions. Then, GG is built on top of that. There's only so much you can do when you are ensuring that it is usable by people who want to make a personalised game in minutes. Remember, the users here on the forum that make the better games are the exception. 95% of users want to drag and drop for 15 minutes, then play. The GG developers have limited control over what the end user will do with it, and the ones that want fast results will do it far more thoughtlessly and without consideration for the consequences. For this 95% of users, you have to code in as many safeguards as possible, which will ultimately affect performance."


I'm not criticising Lee. I'm saying that DBPro is too slow to be used for such a project. Then I made the comment that it might be Lee's fault if he wrote slow code but that I'd expect him to know what he was doing and therefore poorly-written code was unlikely.

Quote: "you have to code in as many safeguards as possible, which will ultimately affect performance."


Which, in direct C++, would be fine. The performance would be a non-issue. But when you add that extra layer (i.e. DBPro), the drop in performance from the safeguards reaches a level where it becomes noticeable and difficult to get rid of. So basically exactly what you just said.

Quote: "Beep! A wild logical error appeared. Handy used bold! It's super effective!"


What logical error?


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mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 16:19
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bad project + bad engine = a bad game
good project + bad engine = an irritating game
bad project + good engine = a bad game (see http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/03/27/merchants-of-brooklyn-review)
good project + good engine = good game

Note: Irritation is bad, believe me. In such case, if possible, community may take control on enhancing the project as much as possible.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 16:31
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Quote: "good project + bad engine = an irritating game"


But that's exactly what I was saying! Why did you say there was a logical error when you are saying exactly the same thing?? Look at what I said:

Quote: "No, but if you make a good app on a bad engine, the good app will reach the limits of the engine and not be so good."


See? I'm saying that you can have a good idea, good design and good code, but if your game or program is built on a bad engine, it'll be a bad program.


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mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 16:47 Edited at: 4th Apr 2015 16:50
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It's time for...

FUN FACTS with mr Handy!

Fact 1: Dark Basic Pro is not an engine!

Fact 2: An engine is what you are writing.

Don't you call Pascal or C an engine? Now I hope not!

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Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 4th Apr 2015 18:13
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Uh, mr Handy, I don't know what you're smoking because...

DarkBASIC is considered to be an engine. It's a collection of functions and commands geared for game making, therefore it fits the criteria to be considered a rough engine.

Also Clonkex's "logic error" is something you stated exactly, so by your logic you also just committed that logic error.

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Seditious
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 19:03
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Quote: "Uh, mr Handy, I don't know what you're smoking because..."


He's not smoking, he's trolling. Again.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 4th Apr 2015 19:18 Edited at: 4th Apr 2015 19:42
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How can you be here for 8 years and say such things?

A game engine is a code solely responsible for the game mechanics. Period.

Quote: "He's not smoking, he's trolling. Again. "

aaaaaaaaaargh!!!

I am sick of all local people here who enjoying by constantly posting "is dark basic dead" "when dx 11" "dbp blows this" "dbp sucks that" "dbp can not into games" "language is an engine" "dbp is a bad engine" and do nothing else for years.



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Ortu
DBPro Master
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Location: Austin, TX
Posted: 5th Apr 2015 02:07
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I would consider DBpro to be both a language and a *graphics engine* because it handles all the raw directx functionality for you(graphics), but it does little to no handling of gameplay for you and so the graphics engine that it provides is one component which you can harness as you build a larger *game engine* around it with the rest of the language.

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Indicium
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 03:08
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Quote: "A game engine is a code solely responsible for the game mechanics. Period."


No. Neither Unity or Unreal handle game mechanics for you, they handle everything else - graphics, physics, networking etc.
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Seditious
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 03:30
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Stop feeding the troll.
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James H
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 03:32
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Ortu has it spot on IMO, from the page you buy it;
Quote: "Does "Professional" Mean Harder To Learn?
Not when it comes to DarkBASIC Professional. "Professional" to us means that you get all of the benefits of the original DarkBASIC language, so you can write games with ease. But you also get the lower-level control and extras you would expect from a Professional language. There are an increased range of Data Types, a far more advanced 3D Engine with low level access to Object data. You can utilise vector and matrix manipulation via the 3D Maths commands and many other advanced features that are there if you need them.

DarkBASIC Professional will grow with you as you learn new development skills and extend your 3D knowledge, so you can unlock the benefits of the more advanced areas of the language. Even if you master all of the 1000+ commands on offer you can extend DarkBASIC Professional with your own DLLs which allow you to create custom commands."
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Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 5th Apr 2015 04:53
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Quote: "A game engine is a code solely responsible for the game mechanics. Period."



Are you drunk or something? THIS IS ALMOST EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!

Quote: "
How can you be here for 8 years and say such things?"


Because they're true? How long I've been here has nothing to do with the fact that DBP is severely lacking in terms of upgrades and, to be quite frank, it is heavily outdated as a result. Within the next version or two of Windows it probably won't function properly and people will be forced to move on.

TGC has shifted gears, towards AppGameKit and GameGuru, which is fine. AppGameKit will quickly have DarkBASIC-like functionality (it really is catghinc up quite fast once you realize essentially only one guy is working on it), and is just as easy to work with and has better built-in functions and commands.

I get that you're a fan of DBP, but seriously, it seems like all you do is troll. You have directly told me and Clonkex we are wrong, and then have gone and stated the same things we have said.

All that said, it still would be nice if TGC would say something about the official fate of DBP, but seeing as it's been years since the last update (wasn't that in 2012 or so?) and they have announced and released two different new engines since then, I think it's rather obvious they're trying to replace it.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 14:46
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So Quick Basic for MS-DOS was actually a game engine:

- it has commands to set display from text mode to graphic mode up to 640x480 (a render engine!)
- it has commands to write/save files (a game engine!)
- it has commands similar to "get image" and "paste image" in DBP (a render engine!)
- it has commands similar to 2D drawing commands like "line", "circle", etc in DBP (a render engine!)
- it has commands to display text (a game engine!)
- it has math commands (a game engine!)

And honestly, what I am doing here? The official DBP forum where everyone rolls DBP in scat. Brilliant.

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Van B
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 14:58
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As I said, moaning on an internet forum rarely achieves anything.

It doesn't matter what gets posted here, it only matters what you actually do with DBPro.

I am the one who knocks...
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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 15:33
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mr Handy, would appreciate it if you got off your high horse 🐴 right about now...

The level of trolling seeping back into this forum over the past year has become irritable...

If you want to troll, go down your local pub and have a nice night...

Speaking of engines, I might start a new WIP on mine but frankly starting to think what would the point be...

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mr Handy
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 16:18
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Hey, Van B, you are the only nice guy here.

Also I decided to change location.

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Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 5th Apr 2015 19:05
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Quote: "So Quick Basic for MS-DOS was actually a game engine:

- it has commands to set display from text mode to graphic mode up to 640x480 (a render engine!)
- it has commands to write/save files (a game engine!)
- it has commands similar to "get image" and "paste image" in DBP (a render engine!)
- it has commands similar to 2D drawing commands like "line", "circle", etc in DBP (a render engine!)
- it has commands to display text (a game engine!)
- it has math commands (a game engine!)

And honestly, what I am doing here? The official DBP forum where everyone rolls DBP in scat. Brilliant."


In your attempt to troll you have missed the points entirely.

There is no reasoning with you.

Quote: "I decided to change location."


Well at least you didn't post an "I'm leaving" thread.

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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 23:11
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I made a conscious decision to avoid pointless debates on the forums and it works (most of the time ). I'm not pointing the finger at anyone, just saying life is so much more pleasant without getting wound up. There comes a point where it is obvious that everyone will think they are right, and at that point everybody loses.



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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 23:16
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 23:43
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I'm totally baffled as to what all the fuss is about. I've been following the thread and as far as I can tell various people have managed to get upset about whether or not DBPro is an engine? Does it matter what you call it?

I suspect I'm missing what's really going on here.

Quote: "I made a conscious decision to avoid pointless debates on the forums and it works (most of the time). I'm not pointing the finger at anyone, just saying life is so much more pleasant without getting wound up. There comes a point where it is obvious that everyone will think they are right, and at that point everybody loses."


Yep. We could all usefully follow that advice.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Apr 2015 23:46
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Quote: "just saying life is so much more pleasant without getting wound up"
This is true! <philosophical> I have noticed, in my life, that most of the crappy stuff that I go through is totally voluntary. Debates, endless worry, silly habits, being picky, etc. All things I could choose not to go through, and if I didn't life would be better, and yet I still choose to partake in those things. I think the same applies for many! </philosophical>

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Clonkex
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 02:08
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Quote: "And honestly, what I am doing here? The official DBP forum where everyone rolls DBP in scat. Brilliant."


As far as I can tell none of us are saying DBPro is bad. I, for one, still love DBPro. All I was saying (and I think everyone else too) was that DBPro is too slow for as big a project as GameGuru and relies on many outdated technologies which will greatly shorten its useful lifespan.

Quote: "<philosophical> I have noticed, in my life, that most of the crappy stuff that I go through is totally voluntary. Debates, endless worry, silly habits, being picky, etc. All things I could choose not to go through, and if I didn't life would be better, and yet I still choose to partake in those things. I think the same applies for many! </philosophical>"


+1


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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 05:02
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Knowing the C++ code under DBP, I have my doubts about speed.

We'll see when this takes shape.

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Clonkex
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 16:13
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Quote: "Knowing the C++ code under DBP, I have my doubts about speed."


Do you mean good or bad? I.e. Are you saying the underlying C++ is fast or slow?


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Dar13
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 16:56
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The C++ code that underlies DBP isn't pretty. I'm sure it performs ok, but there are some areas that are unnecessarily complicated or would benefit from a refactor.

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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 17:32 Edited at: 6th Apr 2015 17:35
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Quote: "Do you mean good or bad? I.e. Are you saying the underlying C++ is fast or slow?"


As Dar13 said.

It was written in a time when MSVC didn't have a portable standard library, and common knowledge about the usage of correct containers wasn't widespread. If you browse the code, you'll find linked lists are used for nearly everything, you'll find loads of non-optimal algorithms, and you'll find strange things that exist but their purpose cannot be explained.

With that said, I think the real bottleneck is going to be the DBP compiler. The assembly it produces has so much potential to be optimised. I bet existing DBP games could be made to run at least twice as fast if the compiler were to be improved on.

Perhaps Lee has done a major re-haul of the code for GG. Who knows.

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Indicium
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 19:10
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How does DBP work then?

If DBP is a compiler, that takes DBP code and turns it into assembly, where does the C++ you're talking about come in? The actual compiler code?

Or are you talking about libraries which DBP links against?
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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 19:29 Edited at: 6th Apr 2015 19:34
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Quote: "How does DBP work then?

If DBP is a compiler, that takes DBP code and turns it into assembly, where does the C++ you're talking about come in? The actual compiler code?

Or are you talking about libraries which DBP links against?"


There are two components here.

The first component is a library (or "game engine", if you will) of functions that abstract DirectX 9.0, called the "DarkBASIC Pro SDK". The other component is the DBP compiler, which converts DBP code into assembly.

When building a DBP executable, the following happens:
1) The DBP code is compiled into assembly and appended to the end of the executable (into the non-executable .text section, I believe).
2) The DBP SDK is linked into the executable.
3) A small startup section is linked into the exe. It contains the main() entry point and is responsible for initialising DX9 and the DBP SDK before loading the DBP assembly, making it executable, and handing the program counter to it.

All the DBP assembly does is make calls to the DBP SDK.

The DBP SDK is in need of some serious refactoring and redesigning.

The assembly generated from the DBP compiler is insanely inefficient, and TGC would greatly benefit from running it through an optimiser.

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Dar13
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 21:42
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I believe someone analyzed a DBP executable and saw they were performing a function call for each float operation (multiplication, division, addition, etc).

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Randomness 128
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 22:25
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DBP doesn't use Unicode, either. I believe a DBP executable with a path such as D:\或懇荸фЖ\Blah.exe would fail miserably.

320x224
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Dar13
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 23:14
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Quote: " DBP doesn't use Unicode, either. I believe a DBP executable with a path such as D:\或懇荸фЖ\Blah.exe would fail miserably."

Honestly, I don't blame them. Unicode support back when DBP was made was miserable across the board. Plus it can be a righteous pain to do properly.

Offtopic:
What's the standard now anyways? UTF-32? UTF-8? MBCS?!

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 6th Apr 2015 23:35
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I think UTF-8 is the standard in most places

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
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MrValentine
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 03:02 Edited at: 13th Apr 2015 03:03
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Speaking of language support, I still have not managed to figure out what that text in the Asian language support of DBPro was...

ƒ_[ƒNƒx[ƒVƒbƒN

I mean how did they get this form of Japanese text? if I/We could figure this out, I think we could get any language into DBPro... [Albeit in some form of Klingon]

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TheComet
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 03:31
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What do you mean?

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MrValentine
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 03:34
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Run that text as a string in DBPro...

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TheComet
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 04:03
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I don't have DBP any more, can someone run it and post a screenshot?



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MrValentine
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 16:18
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You need to use the 'fixedsys' font with it though...

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 02:21
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Quote: "What do you mean?"


+1

Quote: "You need to use the 'fixedsys' font with it though..."


??

Any chance of explaining what you are on about? Please?



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Clonkex
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 02:39 Edited at: 17th Apr 2015 02:39
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Quote: "+1"


+1

Quote: "I mean how did they get this form of Japanese text?"


Who? TGC? What Japanese text?


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MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 02:47
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If you bought the Dark Source pack from the store you will find the code among the list, as such I am not going to post the whole source as it is a paid asset for TGC and would be hot water I wish not to tread... unless someone else posted it already, just search for that string from above... [I have not checked]

Dark Source has a lot of USEFUL code! albeit lacking in description...

fixedsys is an actual font... go look it up

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Clonkex
Forum Vice President
13
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Joined: 20th May 2010
Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 17th Apr 2015 02:56
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Quote: "If you bought the Dark Source pack from the store you will find the code among the list"


I don't own that so I don't know anything about it.


Placement Editor Professional -- Code Line Counter -- Tiled TMX Map Loader 2.0
Open Bezier Curve Library -- Image Tools -- MarbleX GUI Library -- NeoParticle -- Simple Serial
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Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
13
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Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 17th Apr 2015 03:20
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MrV, you have said before that those ellipses you use all the time are when you had more to say, but decided not to. If the more you have to say is an explanation of what you're saying, no need for the ellipses! Write on brother!

You're currently reading a post signature on an Internet forum -- get a life!
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MrValentine
AGK Backer
13
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Joined: 5th Dec 2010
Playing: FFVII
Posted: 17th Apr 2015 04:26
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Unfortunately, I am cutting back my time here to focus on projects, currently dealing with 4 community websites, two are live, one is due to be made live in a couple of days and another is just beginning this week and needs completing within a week or so...

That is 4 external projects for the charity that I give my time for... internal projects have been on hold :/ mainly because I had been on a few small breaks away for holidays somewhat...

I have lost track of internal project numbers last count was 8, but I am sure it is sitting around 15~

Half of which involves studying, half involves products, and another whole bunch is websites for internal and other external business...

The funny thing however, I put more effort into using as few words as possible when explaining something, but try to emphasise as much as possible within those few words... I find this the borderline [great song mind you! Onitsuka C.] between using verbal energy and mental energy...

[But ask me to do a speech and expect at minimum 15-20 minutes written up within a few minutes]

I love these...

<3

I do however have some projects surrounding DBPro which will likely be showcased sometime in a month or so... or maybe even sooner...

I also have plans to make my existing projects semi-free [Some parts free with the dreadful but needed IAP for unlocking extra content]

!!! DO NOT RREAD THIS CODE BLOCK !!!

!!! DO NOT RREAD THIS CODE BLOCK !!!

And yes I do miss being around here, but alas, life takes hold from time to time...

Another project or well two involve these



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