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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Rest in peace DBPro 2002 - 2015 :(

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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 02:56
Cheers!

(buffer for you to reply)



KISTech
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 03:14
Found them, but all the posts are tied to the worldsapartonline.net domain name which I let expire.

So, here are a few.




KISTech
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 03:18
and..





KISTech
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 03:25
I had a ton of help from Gandalf with shaders, so you might have noticed a certain green planet got named after him, and I had an artist working for me making the ships and station. I had parts of the ships set so you could choose what color you wanted so the ships didn't all look the same.

I'll have to dig deep and see if I can go through the code and recreate the database structure. Entering all the data for the planets again will be a big chore though.
KISTech
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 03:50
Sorry for all the posts everyone. It feels good to show what DBPro is capable of though.

This particular ship is something I was very proud of. It's the Terran model. The 2 big things on the sides are the cargo containers that are universal to all the ships. The cool thing about this ship were those orange cooling wings. As you increase speed, those extend further out and shine brighter allowing the engines to keep cool.



I think this image also shows the stripped down HUD I went with. It had screens that moved in from the sides or down from above when information needed to be displayed. Much better than covering half the screen with a static image.
MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 05:20
WOAH! are those planets spherically wrapped?

That is pretty far into a game, did you say it was never completed?

KISTech
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 07:28
Yes, spherically wrapped with multiple layers applied by a shader. The clouds even move around the planet independent of the other layers.

The mechanics were all there, I just needed to finish the game play such as storyline, economy, dynamic job creation, dynamic planet populations, dynamic mining, crop growing, random natural disasters, and put in some AI to keep things lively. Then optimize the network code and start working on a clustering technique for the server end so more players can join without the added lag.

I basically put 3 years into it, rewrote it probably 5 times, praised it, cursed it, and ultimately I still love it and want to revive and complete it.
MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 13:15
Well... There can only be one response to that...

DO IT!

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 13:54
Quote: "I had a ton of help from Gandalf with shaders, so you might have noticed a certain green planet got named after him"


I did, thanks.

Quote: "Well... There can only be one response to that...

DO IT!"


Agreed. Some excellent work on show there.



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KISTech
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Posted: 8th Jul 2015 22:17
Gandalf, it's been to long! Thanks for the kind words, and of course the help getting it there. Couldn't have done it without you.

It's a game I've been developing in my mind for 30 years, (yeah, since 1985) back when I was plunking away on an Apple //e with the 128K RAM expansion. There was a game that was popular on the BBSs called Trade Wars. I don't recall what it was written in, either AppleSoft Basic or Assembler, but it used ANSI graphics, was multiplayer, and turn based. It has been the inspiration for this all along.

I'm looking forward to digging into it again. Probably gonna dive in sometime in the next week or two.

Ok, I'm gonna stop using this thread to stroll down memory lane. I'll start up a new WIP when I've got the game back up and running and I choose a new name for it.
MrValentine
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Posted: 9th Jul 2015 00:01
Quote: "Trade Wars."


I came across this name I think at least the description sounds similar, while studying what makes a good game

Quote: "Ok, I'm gonna stop using this thread to stroll down memory lane. I'll start up a new WIP when I've got the game back up and running and I choose a new name for it. "


Do link back here when you do...

I should probably get working on a large scale project in DBPro soon too...

GIDustin
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Posted: 10th Jul 2015 23:33
In my opinion, DBPro was the stop-gap between a "click and drag WYSIWYG" game builder, and doing it entirely in C++. You still get to manage all the game code, but don't have to be buggered with learning DirectX or all the exhausting c++ stuff. To load a bitmap and draw it to the screen was 2-3 lines of DBPro code. In C++ it would be much more difficult.

I felt DBPro was modeled for people who had game ideas, and wanted to quickly get those ideas into production before the syntax strictness of C++ irritated them enough to just flat out cancel the project, knowing full well that you will sacrifice a small amount of speed for this convenience. There is definitely still a market for DBPro for up and coming programmers, or those like me who refuse to learn a more advanced language just to do the basic stuff I do now.

KISTech
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Posted: 11th Jul 2015 01:31
As I am in that same boat of refusing to learn the intricacies of C++ structure and syntax, though I'm beginning to embrace it a little, I would agree with that. It's an excellent tool for those that don't like the strictness of C++.

With that in mind, it is powerful enough to produce a marketable game. It does take a lot of fiddling, and crafting of efficient code to work around some bugs and shortfalls here and there, but in many cases it's "good enough".

I understand from a business perspective why it was abandoned, but it still makes me sad that it couldn't have been updated to handle a bit more. Still, I'll keep using it until I can't anymore. I just love it that much.
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Posted: 11th Jul 2015 05:30
Quote: "To load a bitmap and draw it to the screen was 2-3 lines of DBPro code. In C++ it would be much more difficult."


If you don't want to code your own game engine from scratch in c++ there are zillions of c++ game engines out there that can be even easier to use than DBP.

// Dbpro syntax
load object "myimage.jpg" , 1

//c++ syntax
Image * image = resourceCache->getImage("myimage.jpg");


Quote: "and wanted to quickly get those ideas into production before the syntax strictness of C++ irritated them enough to just flat out cancel the project"


I see that completely the opposite... i switched to c++ long time ago because in dbpro i always had to hack something... which is cool for a packman style of a game but for some serious work i always had to quit my projects because of DBPro's limitations...

If you want this buy this plugin if you want that buy that plugin... i have nothing against buying something but most of those plugins are unsupported and abandoned , so if you find a bug in them you have to keep hacking and searching for workarounds because they are not open source... after a while you will end up with a giant gargantuan messy code which is just basically a hacked workaround of another hacked workarounds... so you create a new empty project and say "here we go again..."

Using shaders is a really painful procedure in DBpro... Seeing Evolved shader examples really makes your brain explode...
while in most c++ game engines all those materials/fullscreen shaders are bult in. So having specular mapping on an object you have something like this :
mesh->getMaterial()->setMaterialType(MATTYPE_SPECULAR);

or have fullscreen bloom you will have this :
scene->GetRenderer()->GetRenderPath()->append("PostProcess/bloom.xml");

objects are ref counted so you don't have to care about memory management. All c++ game engines are 100% expandable. In DBPro if you need some additional functionality you have to write a dll... Passing void pointers and DWORDS in/out is totally unsafe and definitely not thread safe and probably will cause a crash at some point.

i know c++ feels scarry at first look , especially if you tried to jump straight in the middle with no knowledge or examining badly written c++ code , that can demoralize and scare people, but once you learn the language PROPERLY , you will see it's 100x easier to use than DBPro

[href=forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=191567&b=5]Spark Particle engine[/href]
[href=forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=199163&b=5]Transform gizmo plugin[/href]
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 12th Jul 2015 02:37
Quote: "but once you learn the language PROPERLY "


That's the bit that puts me off.



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sadsack
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Posted: 20th Jul 2015 03:10
So it go

Life is not fair, so deal with it.
http://www.gusworks.com/

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MrValentine
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Posted: 20th Jul 2015 03:57
sadsack, haven't you like just returned after a huge hiatus?

Not seen you around for a while...

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Jul 2015 18:07
Quote: "Not seen you around for a while"


About 6 weeks perhaps?

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=214613&b=1



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MrValentine
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Posted: 20th Jul 2015 18:20
Well, 1 month is enough to say... Where the fridge have you been

BlackFox
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Posted: 21st Jul 2015 06:36
Quote: "It's a game I've been developing in my mind for 30 years, (yeah, since 1985) back when I was plunking away on an Apple //e with the 128K RAM expansion. There was a game that was popular on the BBSs called Trade Wars. I don't recall what it was written in, either AppleSoft Basic or Assembler, but it used ANSI graphics, was multiplayer, and turn based. It has been the inspiration for this all along."


It is amazing the number of games that TradeWars inspires. I still play the game to this day (started back in 86 when Gary Martin developed it). Great to know there are others that know this game. Such fun and good times... and many, many hours at the keys.

Quote: "The mechanics were all there, I just needed to finish the game play such as storyline, economy, dynamic job creation, dynamic planet populations, dynamic mining, crop growing, random natural disasters, and put in some AI to keep things lively. Then optimize the network code and start working on a clustering technique for the server end so more players can join without the added lag.

I basically put 3 years into it, rewrote it probably 5 times, praised it, cursed it, and ultimately I still love it and want to revive and complete it."


Well hopefully you will find the time to keep going on it. I think that the owner of TradeWars now (John Pritchett) would agree that it has potential.

There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 21st Jul 2015 06:53
What is all this relating to? What does this mean for the future of DBP?

I use DBP to rapidly build a solid base for my ideas as I am actually a graphic artist, story writer, and composer. I in no way have the patience and understanding to learn to code in C++ or anything else. I prefer to use DBP over things like Game Maker, FPSC/Reloaded, or other nonsense.

On a side note, I just bought Dark Occlusion. What does this mean for official plugins? Basically, how "abandoned" is DB, and are they still completing purchases of DBP plugins?

Formerly: Amo Deus Man
KISTech
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Posted: 21st Jul 2015 09:08
BlackFox, thanks. That makes me really want to dig back into it even more.

Non, I'm guessing if the stuff is still for sale on the site, they'll keep delivering it. I'm very surprised though that they haven't moved on to an automated process for instant delivery once payment has been made. The payment processes today are easy to verify that the payment is legit and there's really no reason for a modern company like TGC to be doing manual purchase verification. It's really been one of my pet peeves about TGC from my first purchase in 2007.
Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 21st Jul 2015 16:29
That game does indeed look very well along, KISTech. You have very beautiful models and planets. May I ask how many polys are in both ships and planets?

Also, the download for DO came this morning. It just makes me a bit leary about future purchases if they will not continue to support DBP.

Also, if it wasn't clear from my post, I was running on around 4 hours sleep, and had just come from orientation for a new job, so my brain was not clearly communicating! Haha. I was saying, like many of us here on the forums, I prefer DBP for it's balance of power and ease of use.

And, also, is this info based on something the creators posted somewhere? An announcement or forum post? I have just returned to the forums, and DB in general after a year or two long break, only to get the impression that the community is dying! Very heart breaking news.

Formerly: Amo Deus Man
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Jul 2015 17:11
The DBP community is smaller but not yet dying. Nothing to stop you from using it in my opinion.



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Ortu
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Posted: 21st Jul 2015 18:35
many older dbpro users are still active on agk, those remaining are fewer, but still actively working. there are actually half a dozen or so good strong projects on the wip board actively updated which is more than it seems like there were a year ago.

KISTech
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Posted: 21st Jul 2015 19:42
Non, thanks. It's been a really fun project and I can't wait to dig back into it. Just a few more pressing matters to get out of the way and I can dig in full time and get coding.

I don't remember how many polys are in the models. The planets are just DBPro spheres with a really nice shader applied.

When I get back to it I'll be making some more ships and stations. I haven't been doing games, but I've had the chance to work on my 3D modeling skills over the last several years. I bought a 3D printer 2 years ago and have been going nuts with it since. Now I have a contract job with a museum display manufacturer to 3D print prototypes and final models for some of their displays.

As for DBPro, I expect there will always be a user here to help out now and then. One of those will probably be Green Gandalf. He's an amazing help with many things and I wish I could just download his knowledge and merge it with mine. He's also a great guy, which makes him a pleasure to work with.

Lee may in fact come back to DBPro if/when things calm down a bit with AppGameKit and FPSC reloaded. I think there have been times in the past where DBPro was neglected for a year or so and he came back to do a few updates. Time will tell the tale. In the meantime, it's a fully functional game engine with lots of plugins, so enjoy and get coding.
SamKM
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2015 00:54 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2015 01:49
Hey people, thanks for all the replies, some really good points made - slightly ironically, this thread pretty much proves that DBPro is definitely still alive and well as long as we're all here
Anyway, I finally did something I've been meaning to do for over year - email Lee himself, and ask what he thought the chances of us getting an update were. I'm guessing he's heard the same question of times before, so I wasn't sure if he'd want to reply - but he did, which was seriously awesome of him!

Quote: "
Hi Sam,

I've been asked this one a few times over the last year or so, most recently around a week ago We do have an internal build of DBP which we call DB3, though it's 98% the same as the one you have except it has a faster compiler and some necessary hacks which FPSC/GG needed over its development.

The problem with releasing another for DBP now is the implication we would need to provide support, no matter how casual the release, as it inevitably stirs up questions and awareness, and from a company point of view we shifted to AGK2 as our new internal technology, largely for the future cross platform benefits.

I will raise the issue at the next strategy meeting and see if there is a way to release something, probably as open source so it can be maintained by a community of enthusiasts.

Best Regards,
Lee.
"


So turns out we've still got some hope!
I take his point about how another update now could give the impression to newcomers that DBPro is still being developed - hopefully TGC will decide it's not a big enough problem to stop us getting a final update, though!

@Kistech - Your game looks really awesome, great to hear you're developing it more

The code never bothered me anyway...
Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2015 05:19
Thanks for the welcome KIS. Lol. I've actually been around the forums for years now. Also, Gandalf has helped me a number of times when I was still AmoDeusMan. Very helpful, guy. Probably doesn't remember me though. I'm on sporadically, and are prone to taking month or year long breaks from coding.

A few years back I came in 3rd in one of the amateur competitions on the boards. Although, I've never really posted any work on here, for the simple fact that I am a notorious perfectionist, and never graded any of my work even WIP ready(even if it was complete enough, or sometimes even fully complete). But, I have a project that I have been concepting for years now, and plan to get a WIP post up soon. Dark Occlusion was actually the key missing piece to help me fully flesh my idea.

That's awesome, Sam. I wonder if project files will be backward compatible. I remember after one update of DBP my files would no longer open right, so I had to open the batch files and copy the code as raw text!

Formerly: Amo Deus Man
chafari
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2015 07:36
Quote: "So turns out we've still got some hope!"



if at first you don't succeed try try again

Well done SamKM !!

Cheers

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Kuper
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Posted: 24th Jul 2015 12:23 Edited at: 24th Jul 2015 12:24
Quote: "So turns out we've still got some hope! "

Best news in this month!!!

Quote: "How does AGK2 with it's 3D features stack up to DBPro?"

Make some quick tests using AppGameKit demo from Steam. Fps in DBPro is noticeably higher then in AGK(like 900fps and 350fps in heavy scenes) .Still it have not a lot of commands which DBPro have.

Quote: "some necessary hacks which FPSC/GG needed over its development"
GG - its about Green Gandalf?
Quote: "necessary hacks which FPSC"
- there was fast light mapping tool I remember.Very useful!

KISTech
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Posted: 26th Jul 2015 19:06
If 3D performance is lower with AppGameKit, I'll stick with DBPro for my big projects.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 27th Jul 2015 21:29
Quote: "GG - its about Green Gandalf?"


That's what I thought - till I realised he meant Game Guru (<> Green Gandalf).



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Ortu
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Posted: 27th Jul 2015 21:43
is not Green Gandalf a true game guru?

IBOL
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 05:04
I gave up DBP a few years ago, been using AppGameKit since...
now I found a plugin for DBP to integrate STEAM, and since AppGameKit can't do that, I'm coming back to DBP!

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 28th Jul 2015 18:48
Quote: "I'm coming back to DBP!"






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Non Sequitur M
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 05:59
Quote: "I'm coming back to DBP!"


Don't we all?

No... Actually, I've been wanting to learn C++ or C#! Lol. But, the advantages of DBP to a beginner are profound(especially a beginner who has no desire to be a coder, as he is a designer ), so it just draws many of us back in.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 15:21
Quote: "Actually, I've been wanting to learn C++ or C#!"


Same here. But every time I try I get put off by the hoops you have to jump through to get a simple 3D object on the screen and move it around. Also, I'm getting a bit lazy in my rapidly advancing years.



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basjak
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Posted: 29th Jul 2015 19:54
I don't mind to see DBpro staying at directX 9, because it's compatible with older windows operating systems.

the only problem I have with DBpro is that hardware is evolving and DBpro is nowhere near the touch screen gesture and tablets functionality.

I still use DBpro heavily but I can't carry on digging the Dlls.

I still believe that TGC should keep support and we all paid when new plugins came out.

yet if they carry on watching these type of posts and commenting on no reply only then, am afraid I will have to say ba bye.

SamKM
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Posted: 31st Jul 2015 01:01
Doesn't DBPro have some undocumented touch commands or something?
Also, hey Chafari, haven't seen you posting in a long time, good to have you back!

The code never bothered me anyway...
chafari
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Posted: 31st Jul 2015 21:37
Quote: "hey Chafari, haven't seen you posting in a long time, good to have you back!"


Lately I've been doing other things to avoid boredom.From time to time I have visited the forum from my phone .I would like to recover some of my projects which will be easier to code with dbpro.

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Quel
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Posted: 1st Aug 2015 00:58 Edited at: 1st Aug 2015 01:03
DBPro is not dead. Yet. It will be getting deader and deader as the computers that can run its applications with zero effort get fewer and fewer. Then you can shove enthusiasm people.

Not that it hasn't been a problem from DAY ONE, practically outside of devs here in the community, i've never been able to share a demo with someone without this exact scenario EVERY TIME: guy mails back, usually a couple days later i've sent the stuff over, when at that point i'm REALLY hungry for some patting on the back for my achievements... so a mail arrives (wohoo!), i quickly open, aaand... and it says something along the line "oh, i got this error message when i tried to run it".

In later years half of these became "My computer says it's a virus". Me: "It certainly isn't, trust me", Response: "Noh."

You just may ask, why the hell am i still around here then?! (People who already lost a precious piece of their minds to "Internet Culture" may start just right about now shouting "TROLLIN'!!!") Easy. Because DBPro lures you in with the possibilities, speedy development, everything's so wonderful! And then a ton of stupid sh... falls on you, for example like the one i detailed above.

I'm having the urge to share more of such anecdotes, and babble about TGCs incompetency to hold a stable community with ONE but at least WORKING product, or how they dumbed down their repertoire for profit (mobile gaming, and the push of click&play game making), but i fear you wouldn't read till the question i want to ask hardcore DBPro coders here, that i'm really interested in answers for!

The question. And i'm really targetting with this the core DBPro audience: Are you the least bit excited about the GuruWhoReloadedTheCreatorOfTheFPS, or whatever the freakin name of it is?! (no cheating people, by this question i mean the end product, not following Lee doing a project from beginning to end in your favourite language!)

If yes, what's wrong with you?
Adrian
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Posted: 1st Aug 2015 01:33
Quote: "Are you the least bit excited about the GuruWhoReloadedTheCreatorOfTheFPS"


Not in the slightest
BlackFox
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Posted: 1st Aug 2015 02:26 Edited at: 1st Aug 2015 02:27
Quote: "Not that it hasn't been a problem from DAY ONE, practically outside of devs here in the community, i've never been able to share a demo with someone without this exact scenario EVERY TIME: guy mails back, usually a couple days later i've sent the stuff over, when at that point i'm REALLY hungry for some patting on the back for my achievements... so a mail arrives (wohoo!), i quickly open, aaand... and it says something along the line "oh, i got this error message when i tried to run it"."


I can certainly relate to that. Funny how things work good and when you send out to test, there is a mysterious entity that affects projects to work only on the dev's system.

We purchased a couple of DBP plugins from TGC site and what got me was that one of them (the example project anyways) kept crashing on our Win 7 desktop. I had to change compatibility for it to Win98 and it ran fine. I realize that the plugin may be old and I recall U77 fixed the issue with Windows and perhaps I just needed to recompile the example (which we did but it crashed unless we changed the compatibility), but while I was rewriting my FPSC source I wanted this plugin integrated. Can't very much do that if I have to change compatibility, so it sits until I have time to figure out why.

Quote: "Are you the least bit excited about the GuruWhoReloadedTheCreatorOfTheFPS, or whatever the freakin name of it is?!"


Nope. And I'm not too keen on "IhaveAGKandRealizeThatMyAGKisOldandThereisAGK2Now".

There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
Ortu
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Posted: 1st Aug 2015 17:59
Quote: "
Quote: "Are you the least bit excited about the GuruWhoReloadedTheCreatorOfTheFPS"
"


Nope.

To be fair, we're not expected to be. They want us to be excited about agk, but again, nope.

My interests aren't in the kind of games mobile excels at, and cross platform is a buzz word that for me just fails to make up for all the other ways in which agk can't match up to dbpro

DennisW
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Posted: 5th Aug 2015 16:46 Edited at: 6th Aug 2015 16:13
Hi All
To start with I had a hard drive crash that forced me to reinstall a lot of programs. Just last night I was working on putting DBpro back in. BlackFox said he had to run in compatibility mode to get some of them to work. I have done that in the past. I have bought all but two plugins over the years. As of now they are all working that is on the demo's that came with them. I run on Windows 8.1 64 bit. I have a Geforce Gtx 650. When I use the U77 a lot of them crash. I have gone back to 1.7.61 and all works fine. On my desk top and on my laptop. To get back to the topic on hand Dark Basic Pro will only die if we let it. It will never be dead for me I have too much fun with it.

Ham and Eggs Breakfast
The Chicken was involved the Pig was Committed
AGK Community Tester
Latch
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Posted: 6th Aug 2015 02:55
How is DBPro out of the box? That is, without any plugins. Just the straight DBPro command set.

Can you make something decent and distribute it without running into the errors that were mentioned above? Isn't the base command set enough?

Enjoy your day.
SamKM
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Posted: 6th Aug 2015 03:35
Just my opinion, but even though vanilla DBPro is still awesome, I reckon it's the community plugins like Matrix1Utils that make it powerful and give more advanced users much more flexibility

The code never bothered me anyway...
KISTech
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Posted: 6th Aug 2015 21:52
Things can be made out of the box, but for something truly distributable the plugins are a must. Some of the stuff I've done with DBPro just wouldn't be possible without them.

GameGuru, FPS Reloaded, no thanks. I backed FPS Reloaded in the hopes it would be a more major improvement over the previous. While there's been progress, I think it has fallen short of my hopes.

AGK, AGK2, I used AppGameKit in a Ludem Dare competition. It was a lot of fun and all, but there's still something missing. Sure if you want to make 2D mobile games then it's fine.

DBPro has always had the potential to be something great. There's an inherent limitation in an interpreted language though. The biggest drawback (as mentioned) is compatibility. It's been a problem from the first day I downloaded DBPro in 2007. I've run into the same situation during Beta testing where I posted the game for download and had to make tweaks and include C++ DLLs in the main directory of the game to get it to work.

For as long as DBPro has been around, there should have been more programmers thrown on the project to work out the bugs and enhance the code, but it was kept close to Lee's vest. I understand not wanting to let go of your baby, but there comes a point where you have to let others help it realize it's full potential. Now I fear it never will.

HOWEVER, I do recall a few years back Lee released the source code for DBPro. If perhaps a group were to take that and create an open source game engine then the Phoenix may yet rise from the ashes. Who knows...
Clonkex
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Posted: 10th Aug 2015 10:11 Edited at: 10th Aug 2015 10:19
Quote: "Let's not forget the immense compile times for changing just a single literal in the source"


Haven't read the thread and don't intend to enable mailback, but I will just say that Lee significantly improved the compile times on the version of DBPro he's using (for from several minutes down to 20 seconds, that kind of improvement).

EDIT:

Quote: "DBPro has always had the potential to be something great. There's an inherent limitation in an interpreted language though."


Interpreted? It's not interpreted. It's compiled. DBPro compiles down to machine code, albeit somewhat inefficient machine code.

Chris Tate
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Posted: 10th Aug 2015 13:32 Edited at: 10th Aug 2015 13:32
Quote: "DBPro has always had the potential to be something great. There's an inherent limitation in an interpreted language though."


Why did you think it was interpreted?

(Actually I wish it were interpreted... but that is another argument)

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