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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Weighted Vertices not working after Windows 10 upgrade. HELP!

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Mage
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Posted: 19th May 2016 04:38
I have an old project with a lot of animated objects.

Now after upgrading to Windows 10 I noticed none of them seem to animate with any weighted vertices where they did before.
They just animate with 1 bone only. Characters joints look terrible.

I didn't even recompile. Just using an old exe and I'm looking and this looks different.
Also I noticed that the controller triggers are behaving differently than before making me need to remap them in the code.

Is there a version of DirectX that I need to install or something to restore weighted vertices?

Using Milkshape3D JT Exporter. Even tried exporting to MS3D ASCII, importing to CharacterFX and exporting to X.
DBP version 7.7
Ortu
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Posted: 20th May 2016 04:22
Yeah, I had to reinstall direct x to fix some odd issues after an upgrade to win 10

The link in this thread worked for me:

https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/29734
Chris Tate
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Posted: 22nd May 2016 16:25
Thanks for that info
Mage
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Posted: 27th May 2016 04:47
Thanks I kept meaning to reply but I kept forgetting.

The link provided leads to a Direct X web Installer link that does not work. It redirects to download windows 10 instead.
WickedX
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Posted: 27th May 2016 05:01
You can find the DirectX web installer on this link; https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=34429
Mage
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Posted: 28th May 2016 05:10 Edited at: 28th May 2016 05:10
Thanks for the reply.

That link is for Windows 98/2000/XP/2003.
I found the Windows 10 compatible directx 9C installer and it only said I was already up to date.

Wasn't there a DirectX 9E or something? I can't seem to dig up a link on that its been so long.


In any case, weighted vertices, not working. Older files and code that used to work, not working on Windows 10.
James H
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Posted: 28th May 2016 18:59 Edited at: 28th May 2016 19:00
Dx9c is all you should need - might have to be June 2010 version I think - in system32 folder there should be a load of dll's with name d3dx9_24.dll right through to d3dx9_43.dll as well as 2 more named d3dx9d_33 and d3dx9d_43

I just ran the shaders demo that comes in the projects folder for upgrade 7.5 of the FREE version - not DBP open source but the one that TGC used to provide from the old websites main page which uses the aiko boned model and it runs fine here. However it does use the bumpbone.fx shader to animate, it could be possible I suppose that your cpu is the cause so maybe try the shader with your model and see if that works, but really I wouldn't know I am just guessing as I know that the animations can be processed by either the cpu or the gpu, in any case the shader route is the fastest method by a fair bit. Here is the contents of the fx file:



Edit: Forgot to add I am using win10
Mage
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Posted: 1st Jun 2016 19:51
I've been looking around but I can't seem to find a download link for version 7.5.
I'd like to take a look at that model file and see if if it animates with weights.

Does anyone have a link?


I'll also add that I have an AMD and an Intel cpu and both have the same issue. However I have noticed some differences in behavior in the past when using Object In Screen().
James H
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Posted: 1st Jun 2016 21:45
I can't find the non open source free version download that I mentioned but I ran the project using u7.7rc7 with no issues so theres no reason that the u7.5 beta 16 wouldn't work or some of the upther upgrades. This beta 16 download is the same file size as the one I downloaded from the main upgrade page before the site was changed

Also I have found the same project that I mentioned in an old news letter download(issue 62) here

Mage
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2016 03:52
Thanks lots for the reply.

I downloaded that project and tested the model. I used both the shader and the built in system, it was the same.

Here is an image of the results:
http://imgur.com/HhjUkya

I have also attached a cut down test project I used to test the model and produce the image.
It is added below to this reply.

As can be seen the butt is very badly deformed and indicates clearly that the vertices are not animating with weights. So in this case either you are mistaken and this model doesn't really have weights or I'm seeing something different than you are seeing.

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WickedX
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2016 03:53
Mage
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2016 22:10
Yeah I managed to get the file. Thanks tho. I responded above.
James H
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Posted: 5th Jun 2016 19:57 Edited at: 5th Jun 2016 20:00
Sorry for late reply, forgot about this - yes I do see the same thing as you see but I don't think it has anything to do with what version of windows is used at this point. I think it is simply an issue with the Aiko model. What is really needed here is for a user here who is on an older OS to test your cut down project.

I am fairly sure TGC used to sell a number of models that had the same animations applied to them from a selection of of animations - at least all the ones I bought did, or gave off that appearance. I think they may have even used CharacterFX but I may be remembering that wrong. In any case where the Aiko model is concerned I believe the distortions you pointed out are a combined result of a lower poly model, a difficult choice of the distribution of vertices and possibly trying to apply a generic set of animations to the rigged model - working on the assumption the bones are rigged just fine as well as the weight values being correctly painted. Aiko appears the same if I load her in DBP or in the direct x mesh viewing tool - so not a DBP specific issue, I have only had Win10 for a year(prev version was Win7) and am fairly sure I remember similar distortions on other TGC character models from before I had it installed. Unfortunately I no longer have Win7 but if a user not on Win10 could confirm if Aiko's butt is also distorted in your cut down version then that would be best.

Also might be worth you providing a sample of your own media along with details of where/when you think it is affected to see if a non Win10 user can confirm the issue.
Mage
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Posted: 7th Jun 2016 07:32 Edited at: 7th Jun 2016 07:35
I have created a sample project with a sample model that uses weighted vertices.
I modeled the model in Milkshape 3D. I even exported it to Character FX and had an alternate X file made from character FX.
I have attached the sample project to this response below.

In this sample a cylinder should animate a twist but instead since the weights do not animate correctly, in DBP the object appears static.
Here are some screen caps of the process:

Here is the object in the editor:
http://i.imgur.com/o4LiLwu.png

Here is the object animating, this is how it should look:
http://i.imgur.com/IA721IC.png

X Format Export Settings:
http://i.imgur.com/KAbaayb.png

Here's Character FX not animating correctly:
http://i.imgur.com/6aWAStK.png

Here's how it looks in DBP (notice the does not twist as only a single bone at the center animates):
http://i.imgur.com/ZVsfJ7w.png

Outside of the editor, only the first bone seems to animate, and it does so at 100% weight.

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revenant chaos
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Posted: 7th Jun 2016 21:46
Hi Mage,
I tested the models you supplied and just as you said there was no vertex weighting present. After inspecting the files in wordpad I've come to the conclusion that somehow the animation data I'snt being exported correctly. The third value within the XSkinMeshHeader section specifies the number of bones which are directly responsible for animating vertices within the mesh, unfortunately it is defined as 1 in both files I looked at. Additionally only "joint1" has any vertex weights, and it says all of the object's vertices are assigned to it with a weight value of 1.
I have attached an edited version of the object which contains some manually-added (ugly nonsense) vertex weights so we can at least determine if dbpro has problems animating objects within win10.

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cryofpain
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Posted: 7th Jun 2016 22:09
how did you get the darkbasic application and how did you get it to install and compile???
Mage
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 00:39
Hi there, Thanks for responding.
I have tried your file, this is the result.
http://i.imgur.com/TPDn2xj.png
The object does animate but as you mentioned with ugly nonsense . I am unable to tell visually if this means the weights are animating.

I was able to find a gem of an article from 2011 which is most relevant to this issue I am having:
I feel like I am dusting off some old forgotten tome at this point.
https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/183555

In this thread the person is using the exact same software and versions as I am. He is having the exact same problem.
They come to the conclusion that the exporter I am using cannot export weights.
I have also been exporting to Character FX so the file could be exported finally into X Format. I am most confused I remember verifying that weights were working with CharacterFX. Something is missing there since I have seen this work and have declared to problem solved before.
However if it was working it may have stopped working at some point while revising things.


In any case, I tried his method of exporting to Blitz3D and using UltimateUnwrap3D to convert the file into X Format.
If I do this the model will load into Ultimate Unwrap 3D (demo) with working animations, and I can 1 button reweld the model since odd seams appear.
Since it is a demo it won't save files and I can't verify if there's problems with the export into X Format.
The thread seems to indicate there are no issues.

So now it's a matter of deciding if I really want to pay 60 dollars for a working version of Ultimate Unwrap 3D.
cryofpain
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 06:54
please tell me how you get the compiler working in darkbasic professional
revenant chaos
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 12:00
Quote: " I am unable to tell visually if this means the weights are animating."
Yeah sorry about that, animating in wordpad is hard I can tell from the bottom edge in your screenshot that the weights were indeed working (some of the vertices had been displaced more than others). Rather than buy UU3D you could try importing/exporting through fragmotion. Although Fragmotion is typically paid software, it's creator decided to grant full access in exchange for typing a prayer once a week.
Ortu
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 22:58
Weights are definitely working in Windows 10, dbpro U77, exported from blender, I have no issues, tested on multiple w10 machines.
Mage
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 01:17 Edited at: 9th Jun 2016 01:19
Thanks,

Quote: "Yeah sorry about that, animating in wordpad is hard I can tell from the bottom edge in your screenshot that the weights were indeed working (some of the vertices had been displaced more than others). Rather than buy UU3D you could try importing/exporting through Fragmotion. Although Fragmotion is typically paid software, it's creator decided to grant full access in exchange for typing a prayer once a week."


I tried Fragmotion, I can confirm that it works. It appears to be a workable solution thanks. One issue I have is that it lacks a lot of the export settings most editors have. So I need to scale the models 10% before exporting. Some of the settings took time to figure out as the first few attempts created backwards or mangled models.

I had doubled the animation frames before but now Fragmotion doesn't have that option. So now I have to dig through a massive amount of code tweaking animation speeds to correct for what will be faster animations.

Another issue is that it appears to be creating 1 less limb than the other editors. CharacterFX and Milkshape added a "Body" limb when exporting that didn't exist in the actual editor (probably a bug). So just imagine creating an animation system where you attach heads to bodys, and other things using hard coded limb numbers. All that is now wrong and needs to be adjusted since the limb numbers shifted. This in turn means every character model needs to be recoded so their limb hierarchy is consistent. Enhanced animation also needs consistent limbs or the models are mangled.

So while this issue is solved, thanks again! It also means it will be several weeks before I have any satisfaction.


Also what craziness, you need to type the Lord's prayer every 7 days to use FragMotion. Yet to Frag someone means to murder someone in combat.
Quote: "The term fragging is used to describe the deliberate killing or attempted killing by a soldier of a fellow soldier, usually a superior officer or non-commissioned officer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragging
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 26th Jul 2016 16:40 Edited at: 26th Jul 2016 18:35
@Mage [ *** Edit2 : Sorry! Didn't read whole thread properly. I see you've solved this. ***]

I've had a quick look at some of my old demos of objects with vertex weights and they all seem to animate correctly in Windows 10. I'm using U77RC7.

Here's a very simple x file of a crude snake's head. Hold down "w" to see the weighted vertices being animated smoothly.

The code I used:



I'm not sure what your problem is exactly.

Edit I think I forgot to hit the Upload file button.


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Mage
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Posted: 4th Aug 2016 23:53 Edited at: 4th Aug 2016 23:53
The problem is that Milkshape 3D has a half baked X format exporter plugin. Weights are not supported. I thought they were due to reasonably well rigged modelling.

A long time ago I looked into this and found that weights were supported. I was apparently wrong.

Recently I discovered this problem, and I have had "Changes in behavior" updating Windows versions before.

It is a shame that proper X format support was always crude no matter which program you used.

With this new process (which seems to have solved the problem) the bone/joint numbers and hierarchy is different.

So I need to convert all of my media to this new form. Convert all of the animations.

Then go through about 30,000 lines of code correcting hard coded bone numbers.

So even though it helps, it's a bit of a mess.

This is not a simple problem to fix.
Ortu
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Posted: 5th Aug 2016 18:57
Quote: "Then go through about 30,000 lines of code correcting hard coded bone numbers."


I feel for you man, but doing this sort of thing Is setting yourself up for pain from the start.


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Latch
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Posted: 8th Aug 2016 21:54
@Mage,

Hello,

At one time in the past, I had a problem with the Milkshape exporter as well. I don't know if it's available anymore as I'm talking about maybe 8 years ago or so, there was an API with which you could write a plug-in. I had started looking at writing an X file exporter - never got very far, as it was easier to use Blender and write an exporter in Python which is what I ended up doing. The point being, that if Milkshape still has a plugin development API, you might be able to create something that meets and exceeds your needs.
Enjoy your day.
Mage
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Posted: 9th Aug 2016 17:43 Edited at: 9th Aug 2016 17:49
Thanks for the tip.

I had briefly entertained the idea. However it would require learning both the X format and the milkshape development api.

This is a difficult process and nowhere is the required information just laid out. I can just imagine finally finding specs on the file format to have what I need buried in a load of information about the file format that I do not need.

It would be less work to simply redo the media and programming for the new bone structure, or to redo the code to map the limbs.

Like replace limb numbers in the code with get_limb( objectId, "head")
Then either search or have the values stored in a table from when it was first loaded.
All of the limbs are still named so this could work.

Mapping limbs might be the better way.
It's still a massive pain in the butt, however it would permanently solve the problem.

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