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Geek Culture / you think you've got it bad

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cryofpain
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 00:29
for fifteen years man and boy I worked day and night at dark basic game development, ignored a dying father, kept my elderly mother awake at night with gun noises, metal music, laughter and the incessant touch typing noises, I bought DBC in PC world in a big box, then moved on to DBP when there was a free download link which required a verification code and that was it: infinite, intricate, godlike freedom to scrape at the very depths of human imagination and then I caught a virus so that my laptop was completely formatted, everything, decades of work gone, after restoring my laptop I discovered the link on the TGC website for darkbasic pro was gone, in it's place is a load of open source files on GitHub placed there by lee bamber when you download these files in entirety it allows for a darkbasic application within which it claims the compiler cannot be found and it asks you to install it correctly but there's no installation instructions applicable to the downloaded archive.

I don't know if TGC is trying to create a load of serial killers as a result of their negligence but I want answers, I want explanations but most importantly I want a working copy of Dark Basic Pro.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 09:35
Quote: "everything, decades of work gone"
Ouch. Everything in me screams, though, "Why u no make backup!!?!?!" In all honesty, I've never backed up any of my own work either. But still.

Quote: "I don't know if TGC is trying to create a load of serial killers as a result of their negligence but I want answers, I want explanations but most importantly I want a working copy of Dark Basic Pro."
heh. Yeah, I feel you bro. I feel you. sigh
smerf
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 12:39
i prolly have a good 15 project folders backed up across 4 hard drives 2 computers and 4 flash drives. also cryo data recovery is not very hard man. chances are u can still recover your work unless you've since filled the pc wither tons of movies and overwritten those hard disk sectors
A child's dream never dies.
TheComet
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 12:58 Edited at: 8th Jun 2016 13:13
That was a fascinating story.

If all you want is a functioning DBP compiler, it appears to be located under Install/Compiler/DBPCompiler.exe. I think you just have to copy the contents of the Install folder to wherever. On my computer I have those files under C:/Program Files (x86)/The Game Creators/Dark Basic Professional Online:



With that said, perhaps it's time to move on to bigger and better things? DarkBASIC is as old as the cheese sitting in the corner of my room. Have you considered Unity? UDK4?

If you want more control, perhaps you can start with something like Urho3D. This engine is nice because it comes with an editor and you don't have to know C++ to program games. You can script your games in AngelScript or Lua.
"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
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wattywatts
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 14:35
Quote: "With that said, perhaps it's time to move on to bigger and better things? DarkBASIC is as old as the cheese sitting in the corner of my room. Have you considered Unity? "

I really recommend Unity these days. Unreal is nice too, though not as well documented. I'm using playmaker, and very rarely need to touch any code in my project - which is great as basic is still the only language I know very well.
Also:
TheComet, you should probably think about cleaning up that cheese in your room...
The Slayer
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 14:54
Quote: "metal music"

Sounds like absolute fun ! \m/

After reading the story, i understand why your name is cryofpain, though. I loved DBP much too, but have now moved on to Unity.

Quote: "for fifteen years man and boy I worked day and night at dark basic game development"

And, you just became a forum member now?

Quote: "TheComet, you should probably think about cleaning up that cheese in your room..."

Yeah, i thought Happy Cheesecake had all the cheese. Or was it the cake?

Quote: \"Close those quotes before they start to spread!...too late! Aaaaaagh!!!
Randomness 128
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 15:50
Quote: "i prolly have a good 15 project folders backed up across 4 hard drives 2 computers and 4 flash drives"

I hope those aren't all in the same geographical location.
320x224
cryofpain
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 17:08
Quote: "With that said, perhaps it's time to move on to bigger and better things? DarkBASIC is as old as the cheese sitting in the corner of my room. Have you considered Unity? UDK4?

If you want more control, perhaps you can start with something like Urho3D. This engine is nice because it comes with an editor and you don't have to know C++ to program games. You can script your games in AngelScript or Lua."


All other game development tools are heresy against Lee Bamber.

I already had the compiler but I needed to find it in the launch application by going to tools then options and changing the thing with the properties of where the compiler was located, all thanks to Smerf, god is a Smerf!



I've stayed up two days and nights listening to the band venom and now the awesome power of DBpro is back in my grasp
Stab in the Dark software
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 20:10
DBPro and AppGameKit are dead move on!
The coffee is lovely dark and deep,and I have code to write before I sleep.
Van B
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Posted: 8th Jun 2016 22:52
Quote: "DBPro and AppGameKit are dead move on!"


Says who?!

When every DBPro and AppGameKit user is dead, then these languages will be dead. There are people developing games for every single platform out there, whether it's 30 years old or the latest Apple product. If someone enjoys using a tool like DBPro, then they should keep using it - who bloody cares if it can handle the media that most people can't create, or the ambitious project that people tend not to try these days. There is a lot to be said for rapid development, there is a lot to be said for actual code, there is a lot to be said for loyalty and experience.

Solo developers and hobbyists need to be realistic about what they can achieve. The dark-grey GUI engines can push polygons and shaders, they've been refined and are supported by massive teams of people, and they also largely enforce the use of expensive media software and protocols that don't necessarily suit self-taught solo developers with no budget. I've tried Cryengine for example, lovely system, really nice environments, and complete project suicide for a solo developer. Let's think for a second about all the 3D Unity games made by 1 person and actually something that anyone has heard of..... long enough - now consider that Stardew Valley is a hugely succesful 2D game made by 1 person in C# - could easily have been created in AppGameKit and deployed to twice as many platforms.

Even with crusty old DBPro there are options, it's uploaded to GitHub, there's Rudolphos extensive DX11 plugin, Evolveds engine, and of course Bullet physics. Is it so difficult to believe that these tools can make something cool that people would want to play!

Anyway, I'm sure cryofpain is glad to be coding in comfort again, and I appreciate his enthusiasm - to be honest it's a breath of fresh air.
TheComet
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 00:49 Edited at: 9th Jun 2016 00:52
Quote: "Even with crusty old DBPro there are options, it's uploaded to GitHub, there's Rudolphos extensive DX11 plugin, Evolveds engine, and of course Bullet physics. Is it so difficult to believe that these tools can make something cool that people would want to play!"


Agreed to some extent. If all you want to do is have fun then by all means, DBP is a wonderful product. However, consider the following points.

1)
It is a shame the DB community has died out save for a select few. I'd imagine getting help can be challenging at times. This is the biggest reason why I recommend people use a more popular tool than DBP.

2)
DBPro's age really starts to show when you compare it to some of the newer engines. By today's standards, navigation mesh pathfinding, physics, inverse kinematics, animation blending, geometry shaders (the list goes on and on) are standard features. You have to mod DBP with quite a few plugins in an attempt to match what could be achieved by simply selecting a more modern engine.

Now this is definitely not an attack on DBP, the point is you should be aware of the limitations and you should select the right tool for the right job. Perhaps the game you wish to make doesn't require all of these modern features.

As I pointed out in my last post, an engine like Urho3D has all of these modern features and they are exposed to you through an easy-to-learn scripting language. In many ways this is similar to what DBP is, just more modern.

3)
BASIC is a dead language. DBPro teaches terrible coding practices. Just go to the DarkGDK board and look at some of the code snippets to see what I mean.

If you ever wish to make programming your day job, I highly recommend you start with a language that is better structured and has more active users. Python, AngelScript, C#, Java. Any of those are an easy place to start. As it currently stands, BASIC will get you absolutely nowhere if it is your programming knowledge you wish to expand.
"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 00:59
Indeed. The language may not be dead, but it is very, very sick.
CJB
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 14:24
Quote: "BASIC is a dead language."


Quote: "The language may not be dead, but it is very, very sick."


Quote: "DBPro and AppGameKit are dead move on!"


WHATEVER!

I think you're wrong.

Quote: "I want a working copy of Dark Basic Pro."
To get your original verification code, you'd have needed to register. If you registered, then you should still find DB-Pro in your Product List (I can still see mine) in your account (https://www.thegamecreators.com/account/product/list)... If it's not there, contact support.
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cryofpain
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 15:38 Edited at: 9th Jun 2016 15:41
Quote: "DBPro and AppGameKit are dead move on!"


DarkBasic game development tools are the only programming tools that retain that 1990's graphical feel, all new stuff looks plastic and poorly lit, give me moderately low polygon models with realistic textures in a compiled darkbasic environment any day. I mean look at the unreal engine today it's realer than real what could possibly be the point in that? I mean with mankind nature created an aspect of nature within herself now people are abusing her by blindly extenuating her glory, a blasphemy!
TheComet
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 16:19 Edited at: 9th Jun 2016 16:21
You really are full of yourself.

Quote: "I think you're wrong."


> Says I'm wrong
> Doesn't say why

nice.
"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
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CJB
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 17:12
Quote: "Says I'm wrong"
Sorry TheComet. I didn't mean to say you were wrong. I just expressed an opinion.

Personally, I really like BASIC. DB-Pro (or any BASIC language) doesn't teach bad coding practice... bad teachers teach bad coding practice!

BASIC can be beautiful and elegant, easy to read, and easy to learn. That's why it is BASIC. That doesn't mean it can't do just as much as any other programming language. Spaghetti code (everyone says "Spaghetti code" whenever BASIC is mentioned) is not the result of using BASIC, it is the result of poor design and lack of coding knowledge. It can happen in ANY language.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter... I try not to get involved in religious arguments.

Programming IS my day job (although not in BASIC.... yet!).



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Uzmadesign
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 18:24
Quote: "Even with crusty old DBPro there are options, it's uploaded to GitHub, there's Rudolphos extensive DX11 plugin, Evolveds engine, and of course Bullet physics. Is it so difficult to believe that these tools can make something cool that people would want to play!"


DBPro does not have Bullet Physics, I never released it for DBPro.
The coffee is lovely dark and deep,and I have code to write before I sleep.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jun 2016 21:50 Edited at: 9th Jun 2016 21:52
You released an alpha version though. I suppose that kinda counts.

Quote: "I've stayed up two days and nights listening to the band venom and now the awesome power of DBpro is back in my grasp"


Last time I listened to Venom I overthrew the dictator of a small country, that's the power of thrash metal (or black metal, as I guess they are both).

Quote: "Personally, I really like BASIC. DB-Pro (or any BASIC language) doesn't teach bad coding practice... bad teachers teach bad coding practice!

BASIC can be beautiful and elegant, easy to read, and easy to learn. That's why it is BASIC. That doesn't mean it can't do just as much as any other programming language. Spaghetti code (everyone says "Spaghetti code" whenever BASIC is mentioned) is not the result of using BASIC, it is the result of poor design and lack of coding knowledge. It can happen in ANY language."


This I agree, it can be a great teaching tool or a good tool for learning or understanding programming concepts. I know there's a lot the Dark Basic language lacks, however, it is a very good stepping stone and that why I love it. For some it still remains a great tool for development, even if the numbers have dwindled, but the competition out there is massive, not like it was 10 years ago. However, I don't think it has lost value, even if I don't use it any more myself.

As for bad coding habits, I agree it's the teacher, because many can transition between different languages and different language types and if they don't learn the right concepts between the two, then you could fall into bad habits. For example, I got lazy in my transition to C# coding and just stuck to my old habits and half learned it, because I was impatient to jump in. But once I went back and picked up some proper tutorials and went all the way, I learned some cool stuff. However, there was still a lot DBPro did teach me that was useful in learning something more complex. For example, it made picking up Unity3D easier for me and the principles I used programming that was based on code I use in DBP, not stuff I've learned from Unity3D tutorials.

And for spaghetti code, there are things you can do in DBPro not to spaghetti it up, I remember being told "don't goto, don't gosub, that's bad, use functions, it's tidier". I know other languages are better for managing code and offering more tools for scalability, but you still have ways to manage code and scale it in DBPro. Hmm, I might actually be tempted to pick up DBPro again to see how I compare now that I've been using other languages.
smerf
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Posted: 10th Jun 2016 01:09
The amount of cash lee made from tgc and the amount of time he put into guru he could have built a massive engine out of dbpo something that could have been quite competitive I believe. Nobody really wants a drag and drop creator that's the reason id dont use an incredible engine like URE or unity plus I don't know c++. Drag and drop looses its fun the second your imagination wants to do something that the program cant.
A child's dream never dies.





TheComet
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Posted: 10th Jun 2016 02:08
Quote: "Nobody really wants a drag and drop creator that's the reason id dont use an incredible engine like URE or unity"


This is a highly uninformed and ignorant comment. I'm baffled over how you can even think this? Unity and UDK aren't "drag and drop creators". You obviously have to write code in those engines as well.

As to not knowing C++: You didn't know DBP either when you first began, right? You can learn it.
"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 10th Jun 2016 03:56
Quote: "For some it still remains a great tool for development"
It does for me! Any time I want to spin together something small really fast, DBPro is my go to language. Well, to be honest, it's my only language these days. Come to think of it, I haven't compiled a line of code in several months... Mainly because I've been too lazy to reinstall it all on my current install of Windows.

Quote: "As for bad coding habits, I agree it's the teacher"
Now what if the individual is self taught? Then a language like BASIC is bound to teach bad habits. I muse a great majority of DBPro users are self taught! Unless one comes across good online instruction that strongly warns against bad habits, and they heed said warnings, a new programmer learning DBPro is bound to develop a bad habit or two.
smerf
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Posted: 10th Jun 2016 05:16 Edited at: 10th Jun 2016 05:41
The comet tsk tsk. if your going to insult someone at least give Google a two second search. https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Blueprints/index.html well there's that link. and the fact that ive used ure blueprint mode, and yes you can program events build terrain add gravity and physics all with the click of a button. Ive used unity as well and with the community and free asset packages you can get by with almost no coding just plug in an asset for what you need and your good to go. Granted yes they are not foremost drag and drop, they are in fact powerful engines designed to be used with programming and im sure the blueprint modes are there more to help programmers get a quick start then they are to be code free game builders not to mention it has an allure to non programmers who want to build games.
A child's dream never dies.





The Slayer
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Posted: 10th Jun 2016 05:19
Quote: "Come to think of it, I haven't compiled a line of code in several months... Mainly because I've been too lazy to reinstall it all on my current install of Windows."

Don't forget all your hard work for making these forums great again! But, no worries my friend...i'll help you.

Speaking of bad coding habbits or spaghetti (yummy!) code, you can do that in any language. What i liked about DBPro, was how easy it was to understand and create something.
The commands were easy to grasp and it helped me to think how a programmer would think in a fun and comprehendable way.

Also, coding in a team or as a single person can make a difference to how you write code.

Quote: "Nobody really wants a drag and drop creator that's the reason id dont use an incredible engine like URE or unity"

Unity, UE4, cryengine are far from drag and drop creators, i can assure you that. If it would be that easy, my game would have been finished by now.




Quote: \"Close those quotes before they start to spread!...too late! Aaaaaagh!!!
TheComet
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Posted: 10th Jun 2016 14:21
Quote: "Granted yes they are not foremost drag and drop, they are in fact powerful engines designed to be used with programming and im sure the blueprint modes are there more to help programmers get a quick start then they are to be code free game builders not to mention it has an allure to non programmers who want to build games."


Exactly. If you want to make anything that doesn't look like a generic dragged-and-dropped game developed in 5 minutes, you'll need to learn how to write code.

Going by your line of logic, DBP is also just a drag-and-drop game engine. I drag and drop my models together in blender, I copy and paste code snippets from TGC into my editor, I copy assets I didn't make into my game folder, etc. Just because Unity comes with a world editor doesn't mean it's just a drag and drop game maker. DBP also has tools for editing worlds.

"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
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cryofpain
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 04:48
video games need more experiential realism, like the capacity to use sellotape to attach a fish to your head while dressed in a gown of frogs, ever played that goat simulator game? it's not a simulator, I bet the people who made goat simulator never played a train simulator game, that's earnest simulation. green lantern, green lantern.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 05:56 Edited at: 12th Jun 2016 05:57
Quote: "video games need more experiential realism, like the capacity to use sellotape to attach a fish to your head while dressed in a gown of frogs"
Hmmm... I think the complexity of the internal mechanics of such a game would be quite high. In fact, a game that works like that would be veering more toward the realm of a physics simulation game with areas of specialization tailored to the specific game. Would be neat, though!
cryofpain
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 10:18
Quote: "more toward the realm of a physics simulation game with areas of specialization tailored to the specific game. Would be neat, though"


Wouldn't that be any game in the 3rd dimension? also what would interest me is bending light.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 10:29 Edited at: 12th Jun 2016 10:32
Quote: "Wouldn't that be any game in the 3rd dimension?"
Certainly not more so than a game in the second dimension! By physics simulation, I mean a system that at a purely intrinsic level would take into account and accurately simulate, according to real physical principles, every characteristic and factor of every component of the entire world being simulated. This of course would be too complex to implement on any computer.

A typical game you see today is meant to simulate only a small swatch of physical principles, just enough to make the game appear as realistic as the developer requires. A car racing game may have the mechanics implemented to simulate force, acceleration, momentum, mass, various types of friction, etc and may result in a very realistic driving experience. But it's hardwired to simulate just those few factors; it wouldn't in any way be capable of simulating, say, aerodynamic physics. The game would need additional mechanics hardwired into it to simulate that sort of thing and allow, for example, the player to place wings on the car and fly away. A pure physics simulation game of the manner I speak would ideally take into account the characteristics of each individual subatomic particle in the environment and simulate accurately from there. This again would be impossible. But, that sort of thing would allow you to realistically experiment with just about anything you wanted. Even bending light!

Basically a universe simulator is what I am talking about. Most current games are only meant to appear to simulate small components of the universe, and that's why realistic experimentation is very limited.
smerf
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 10:53 Edited at: 12th Jun 2016 11:04
I though about a similar issue java dude. if you could program from the ground up all the real world physics like fluid dynamics viscosity, chemical elements and the way they bond al the way up to dna. You could theoretically build and program a human cell. That one cell would be an embryo cell and if the programming were correct it would behave and multiple. In time, a digital representation of a human would emerge and their brain. essentially being a non programmed intelligence. Currently though I think the computing power might be slightly unattainable. would take worlds fastest super computer 2.7 hours for 1 calculation on each atom in the brain.
A child's dream never dies.





Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 10:58
Indeed, I have thought of the same thing. Very fascinating that would be!
TheComet
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 14:11 Edited at: 12th Jun 2016 14:24
Quote: "ever played that goat simulator game? it's not a simulator, I bet the people who made goat simulator never played a train simulator game"


Goat simulator was a parody on the many other ridiculous simulators popping up around that time. That's why it isn't a "real" simulator. It was a joke.

Quote: "if you could program from the ground up all the real world physics like fluid dynamics viscosity, chemical elements and the way they bond al the way up to dna. You could theoretically build and program a human cell. That one cell would be an embryo cell and if the programming were correct it would behave and multiple. In time, a digital representation of a human would emerge and their brain. essentially being a non programmed intelligence. "


You should read The World Within the World by John D. Barrow. It is a highly thought provoking book on all of the big questions such as "can we simulate consciousness?".

To give you the short answer: No, it is not possible to simulate a cell on a classical computer.

You may now be wondering: But we have simulated cells on computers. We have simulated the universe. Obviously what I just said is false! Yes and no. As DJD79 mentioned, those simulations are merely very rough approximations.

One of the great dogmas in today's science is the belief that everything is mechanical.
Quote: "1. Everything is essentially mechanical. Dogs, for example, are complex mechanisms, rather than living organisms with goals of their own. Even people are machines, ‘lumbering robots’, in Richard Dawkins’s vivid phrase, with brains that are like genetically programmed computers."

http://wariscrime.com/new/the-ten-dogmas-of-modern-science/

The truth is we don't know this, and we cannot prove this. We seem to believe that something as complex as human consciousness can be computed, while in reality we fail at simulating a single atom. Yes, something as simple as a hydrogen atom exhibits behaviour too complicated to calculate. Why? One word: Determinism.

An atom is not deterministic. If hypothetically we knew the "initial state" of an atom (position and location of the electron) - which is of course not possible, but we will assume this for the sake of argument - it would still be impossible to predict how that atom would behave over time. The best we can do is make probabilistic assumptions, e.g. "There is a 30% chance the electron will travel at speed X in direction Y". This is because the electron (and everything else at that microscopic level) is inherently chaotic in nature.

So I ask you this: If we can't even simulate an atom, how then can we make the assumption that something as complicated as a cell can be simulated? The answer is we can't. We can make approximate simulations of cells, but those simulations will never behave like the real deal.

Did you know that even in math there are problems that can no longer be solved perfectly? One very simple example: Finding the roots of a polynomial. We know it is possible to solve for 2nd order polynomials (ax^2 + bx + c), we even have a formula for 3rd order polynomials, but as soon as you have higher order polynomials, you can no longer find the roots with a formula. You can only approximate those roots.

One very interesting feature of consciousness is that it changes its behaviour when it knows it's being observed. For example, if you were to monitor my behaviour over some months, you would see patterns. I go shopping every Thursday at 18:00. You could therefore make a prediction that I would go shopping next Thursday at 18:00. But what happens if I found out that you knew I would go shopping at 18:00? There is a high chance that I would intentionally go at a different time, to prove you wrong. But hey, what if you knew that I knew? You could predict that I would intentionally go shopping at a different time on purpose, but if I knew that you knew that you knew, then maybe I'd decide to go shopping at 18:00 anyway.

This "recursion" is a big problem when it comes to computing something like consciousness. You'd have to consider all of the infinite possibilities in order to make an accurate prediction. Another reason why it cannot be computed on classical computers.

Why is this relevant? Cells exhibit this same behaviour. If a cell is observed, it alters it's behaviour based on that observation.
"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
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The Slayer
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 15:45
Quote: "but if I knew that you knew that you knew"

You know what? I know that you knew, you know?

Nah, but i get your point.

Quote: "As DJD79 mentioned"

Haven't seen him around. Is he a new member?
Quote: \"Close those quotes before they start to spread!...too late! Aaaaaagh!!!
cryofpain
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 16:16 Edited at: 12th Jun 2016 16:17
Egghead likes his booky book!
TheComet
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 17:14 Edited at: 12th Jun 2016 17:15
A very intelligent comment.
"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
https://vt.tumblr.com/tumblr_o2rvwdLLSF1rmjly4.mp4
cryofpain
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 17:24
stronger than morphine crazier than crack cocaine heavier than heroin dancing in your vein chasing the dragon!!
CJB
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 19:04
Quote: "stronger than morphine crazier than crack cocaine heavier than heroin dancing in your vein chasing the dragon!!"


V2 T1 (Mostly)
Phone Tap!
Uzmadesign
James H
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 19:24
@cryofpain You know this is a family orientated site right?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 21:03
Yes, let's keep it clean. It's a family orientated forum, because, well, we do get minors using this forum, especially as some of the TGC products are suitable learning tools for the wee ones. Heck, I was technically a minor when I joined, wanting to learn how to make games, but wanted something simple enough to learn, hence Dark Basic was attractive.
TheComet
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Posted: 12th Jun 2016 21:37 Edited at: 12th Jun 2016 21:38
I don't know why I bother taking the time to write something meaningful on this forum any more. You spend 10 minutes spamming this huge wall of thought provoking text, and the best response you get is: "Egghead likes his booky book!"

Granted, cryofpain is very obviously a troll, but still. I have not seen one intelligent discussion on this forum for at least a year.
"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
https://vt.tumblr.com/tumblr_o2rvwdLLSF1rmjly4.mp4
smerf
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Posted: 13th Jun 2016 00:06
A complete atom would never have to be simulated. Just its power levels states and the rules governing bonding ect. Not going as far as quarks or anything spectacular. If you can simulate an atom you don't have to simulate a cell only to build the cell from the programmed atoms. The program would handle the rest. Chemical reactions would virtually occur and the cell would be simulated. As I was saying in my earlier post though its the issue of programming all the real world physics some of which we are still unable to explain like entanglement which could for all we know occur naturally quite often. these could be done on a classical computer if the algorithms and variables where all known. modern tech is focusing on simulating the way cells communicate with special neural processors but I have a good feeling it will fail simply because there so many rules that govern communication in the brain at the dna level im near positive you'd have to program and run a full brain simulation down to the atom to get 100% true ai or just I since it no longer artificial just on a different medium. Or best case scenario learn every rule that governs cell communication and try to mimic them on a neural processor but I don't think our understanding of cell communication in brain neurons is even near complete right now prolly just scratching the surface.
A child's dream never dies.





CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 13th Jun 2016 00:16
Seriously, boot CryofPain, he's clearly here to troll judging by how he's posted a month's worth of threads this weekend alone about utter trash.

That said Comet, I liked the post about scientists imagining the universe in mechanical terms. The problem is that our understanding of the mechanics and relationships between them may simply be too limited to understand the full scope of things. Maybe we're destined to never really know.

Maybe we're all just dust motes in a sunbeam.

I've been feeling very nihilistic lately.
smerf
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Posted: 13th Jun 2016 00:24 Edited at: 13th Jun 2016 00:25
And coffee grunt cryo def needs some mental help services but forums are so dead need everyone we can get i think, even the crazy ones. We must all be crazy for hanging around here so much.
A child's dream never dies.





TheComet
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Posted: 13th Jun 2016 01:16
Quote: "Just its power levels states and the rules governing bonding ect"


That's exactly the issue though. The power levels are unpredictable and the physics of bonding aren't fully understood. What's even more bizarre is that the simple act of observing an electron changes its behaviour (see for example the double slit experiment).

It isn't simply a matter of us not understanding the full picture. There is a limit to how precise we can measure (see Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle). If that limit exists, then it means we can never know the full "state" of anything. Ergo, the idea of everything being mechanical and deterministic is false. The universe and everything in it behaves chaotically and you cannot compute this on a machine that is deterministic.

This is a pretty good summation:
http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/physics/


Also here's something to think about. Let's say you did simulate a human on a computer. There are 2 problems.
1) You know the state. That means you can with 100% certainty predict what the human will do next. You wouldn't be able to do that with real humans (see above for why).
2) If the simulated human knew he was being simulated, then it means the computer would have to compute that. But what if the human knew that the computer knew that he knew? The computer would have to also compute that. But then the human could also know that the computer knows that he knows that the computer knows that he is being simulated....

You see where 2) is going. You would have to calculate an infinite number of possibilities. Because this is clearly impossible on a classical computer, you would only be able to approximately compute a human. Therefore, it is impossible to simulate a human.
"Jeb Bush is a big fat mistake" -- Donald Trump
https://vt.tumblr.com/tumblr_o2rvwdLLSF1rmjly4.mp4
cryofpain
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Posted: 13th Jun 2016 14:45
Quote: "@cryofpain You know this is a family orientated site right?"


What like the Manson family? Seriously though what's the point in sugar coating reality, it's like telling a kid hey don't worry about falling off a cliff you'll land on a clown made of candy, for example the columbine massacre could of been prevented had Doom been set in an urban environment and had lots of role play sex and drugs in it, Eric and Dylan would be like Japanese recluse kids addicted to it, avoided destroying themselves and 25 to 38 other youths and perhaps engaged in some kind of homo-erotic relationship like their favourite rock stars.

Mrs. Thornton wrote: "2) If the simulated human knew he was being simulated, then it means the computer would have to compute that. "


ladies are always so extreme, look I've created some code which simulates this eventuality:

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 13th Jun 2016 18:14
Yay, we officially have a new troll to deal with! How fun. I wonder how long this will last.
The Slayer
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Posted: 13th Jun 2016 18:18
Quote: "Yay, we officially have a new troll to deal with!"

First a god and now a troll. Somewhere in between would be better.
Quote: \"Close those quotes before they start to spread!...too late! Aaaaaagh!!!
James H
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Posted: 13th Jun 2016 21:50
"User Banned" Lol I was so not in the mood to make a response.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 14th Jun 2016 07:06
Quote: "User Banned"

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