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AppGameKit Chat / AppGameKit VR Released

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RickV
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Posted: 19th May 2017 16:54
Today we released the AppGameKit VR DLC which adds powerful and easy to use VR commands.



The product page is HERE
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JHA
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Posted: 19th May 2017 19:14
I was very excited about this and immediately purchased it, before I realized that it required either the Oculus Rift or the HTC VIVE headsets. I have no plans to purchase either of those devices. I thought this would work with the Google Cardboard and the like.

What recourse do I have? (Wait for future developments, Get my money back, etc...)
Will the Google Cardboard or equivalent be able to be used in the future?

Thank you,
JHA
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 19th May 2017 20:02
I did the development of AppGameKit VR. We did have some conversation about using the plugin to also support phone VR, but that would really require an entirely separate system. I won't rule out supporting it in the future, but at best it would be some time before that is added. Did you purchase from Steam or directly from TGC? You'd need someone from TGC to say if you can get a refund or not.

Ron
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PSY
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Posted: 19th May 2017 20:03
Holy shit,

this is cool.


Thanks !!
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JHA
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Posted: 19th May 2017 20:35
Quote: "I did the development of AppGameKit VR. We did have some conversation about using the plugin to also support phone VR, but that would really require an entirely separate system. I won't rule out supporting it in the future, but at best it would be some time before that is added. Did you purchase from Steam or directly from TGC? You'd need someone from TGC to say if you can get a refund or not."


Hello Ron, thanks for the response. I purchased it through Steam. I realize that the powers-that-be would need to make that decision.

Thanks Again!
JHA
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nz0
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Posted: 19th May 2017 23:36
Won't the steam refund mechanism's apply?
MikeMax
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Posted: 20th May 2017 00:31 Edited at: 20th May 2017 00:57
As i already discussed with you, VR is indeed a real need... and it seems you've done a great job with this "Special VR Version" of AGK.

But Vive and Oculus are essentially owned by few developpers or professionnals only (or curious population).

I'm waiting (hoping !) for Cardboard and Daydream (with controller) compatibility in the main AppGameKit V2 version (or V3 !?) which have a larger population of users/players. Google is working on his standalone Daydream headset for the end of 2017 And Samsung GearVR is almost dead (S8/S8+ will be Daydream Ready this summer).

Viva Daydream ! and keep up the good work ! you're all doing great things !
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 20th May 2017 01:08
Quote: "As i already discussed with Rick, VR is indeed a real need... and it seems you've done a great job with this "Special VR Version" of AGK.

But Vive and Oculus are essentially owned by few developpers or professionnals only (or curious population).

I'm waiting (hoping !) for Cardboard and Daydream (with controller) compatibility in the main AppGameKit V2 version (or V3 !?) which have a larger population of users/players. Google is working on his standalone Daydream headset for the end of 2017 And Samsung GearVR is almost dead (S8/S8+ will be Daydream Ready this summer)."


I definitely do understand your point. There are currently few people with Vive or Rift hardware and pretty much everyone has a smartphone. I think the reason to go this way first though is that there was currently no solution for the Vive and Rift in AppGameKit and there are solutions available for Cardboard. I think AppGameKit even includes a VR example for cardboard. The programming for supporting Vive and Rift is fairly complicated, and this greatly streamlines it making it accessible to anyone. The most important point though is that the indie market for Vive and Rift is currently really good. It may be small, but an indie developer that makes something worthwhile can actually get noticed. The mobile market is so over-saturated that it can be hard to get anyone to download a good game that you release for free. I'm hoping that AGKVR can also bring some new developers to AGK. Time will tell.

Like I said, I would like to add support for mobile in the future. This was the first step of a product that I definitely plan to keep evolving.

Ron
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xCept
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Posted: 20th May 2017 01:25
Truly appreciate this upgrade! I'm bummed out in part because I've had Rift since DK1 and the CV1 since launch but have barely had the chance to use it for anything at all, and same with AppGameKit for most of this year. Hope I will be able to return focus to it shortly.
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Posted: 20th May 2017 10:22 Edited at: 20th May 2017 10:23
What exactly is the VR? Is it additional commands to existing AppGameKit or a stand alone application?
jlahtinen
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Posted: 20th May 2017 11:11
I was surprised that there is only Vive/Rift support. Hope that cardboard support comes soon-ish.

Gonna buy it anyway, since I own Rift (and maybe for support also).
MadBit
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Posted: 20th May 2017 11:29
Quote: "What exactly is the VR? Is it additional commands to existing AppGameKit or a stand alone application?"


I think, it is a plugin. It is support for now only windows. (See product page).
Share your knowledge. It\'s a way to achieve immortality. (Tenzin Gyatso)
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george++
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Posted: 20th May 2017 12:36 Edited at: 20th May 2017 17:19
@MadBit: You are right,
I din't notice that:
Quote: "Users must already own AppGameKit and either the HTC Vive or Oculus Rift hardware to use this DLC."

Since VR games focus on visual effects, I wouldn't go with it without built in support for shadows and normal maps.
Mikko
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Posted: 20th May 2017 21:00
I bought my Oculus DK2, because DBP had a third party plugin for it (which had head movement, but only 2d picture).

Now, with this and the CV1, everything is possible again.

Thank you Ron and the TGF team.

Mikko
mikko_ketonen( )hotmail.com
RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 21st May 2017 08:20
Hi,

The plan is to support cardboard in a later version. So anyone who purchases the VR add-on will get that down the line.

We will soon be adding shadows and 3D particles to the core AppGameKit too.

It's early days for VR. Oculus and Vive are the best available systems to date but there are a numbver of new initiates by the big boys (Google, Microsoft, Intel, etc) that indicate hardware will be cheaper, more free (no wires) and more mobile focused.

Rick
Development Director
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george++
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Posted: 21st May 2017 13:52
Quote: "We will soon be adding shadows and 3D particles to the core AppGameKit too."

Great news.
Mobiius
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Posted: 22nd May 2017 09:19
Quote: "Will the Google Cardboard or equivalent be able to be used in the future?"

But we can already develop cardboard games now?
My Zelda game I was working on uses a google cardboard headset and a bluetooth controller.
VR support shown here. (Not the best footage, it's a home made headset from before I bought a proper one.)

Controller support shown here.
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MikeMax
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Posted: 22nd May 2017 11:46
Mobiius,

You're right. We can already "simulate" a Cardboard application. But you don't inherit the Cardboard parameters of the mobile phone (Lens view correction relying on each different VR Headset). I will release a VR View lib (not as plugin) with Lens correction FullShader soon. but it's not truly "CardBoard" or daydream.

And now cardboard becomes deprecated due to Daydream. Daydream intialize a special VR Mode for the display and sensors to reduce Visual latencies and sensors latencies. And daydream use a BLE Controller with multiple sensors. and AppGameKit doesn't support BLE for the moment.

That's why i'm asking for a "real" Cardboard and Daydream support (Google VR APIs which integrates BLE Daydream controller too).
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janbo
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Posted: 22nd May 2017 13:04 Edited at: 16th Jul 2017 14:05
I realized I forgot to post my Lens correction shader which I had ready for a couple of weeks maybe month...
I posted it in the Useful shader thread now
I also wrapped some commands into a tiny Library so its easy to setup.

Using AGKv2 Tier1
CumQuaT
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Posted: 23rd May 2017 07:29
Mobiius how did you overcome the issues with linking the camera's movement and rotation to an object in the scene (if that's how you went about it)?

I got a cardboard app working just great until I tried moving the viewer through the scene (it was a space fighter game, so the camera had to stay in the cockpit) and because of the eular rotations things just went haywire...
I work full-time making games in AGK2 and DBpro. Living the dream!
Mobiius
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Posted: 23rd May 2017 08:53
I linked the headset rotations to the players head object. So when you moved your head, the player moved theirs. (Third person camera) I used the standard player character controller to move.
I haven't yet managed to figure out how to add the headset Y Angle to the players Y Angle so you can turn the player left and right whilst still maintaining control of your look angle.

(To be honest, I'd kind of given up by then as I was having troubles with raycasts not detecting the terrain/ground to prevent the camera from clipping outside the level. Turns out, AppGameKit had a problem with scaled objects which may well have been fixed now, but I'd already lost interest in continuing by then. I do plan to pick it back up, but motivation is low when there are so many good xbox games coming out!)
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MikeMax
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Posted: 23rd May 2017 11:45 Edited at: 23rd May 2017 11:49
You must multiply player rotation quaternion with head rotation quaternion to get the global quaternion

currW,X,Y,Z = Rotation Quaternion of your player body
RotSensorW,X,Y,Z = Rotation Quaternion of player head

totW,X,Y,Z = Resulting quaternion to set to the camera ( with command SetCameraRotationQuat )

+ Code Snippet

Be careful about VR sickness if you have visual or sensors latency (double rotation + movement)...
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 23rd May 2017 12:14
All of the rotation difficulty is made very simple in AppGameKit VR. I appreciate the problem, because it is even further complicated with the Rift and Vive because in addition to rotation, there is also a distance offset because of having a full 6 degrees of freedom. One of my goals with AGKVR was to handle all of this in a way that is very easy for the user, yet still flexible enough for you to do whatever you want. I created a "player" container, where you set the player's ground location and rotation and the HMD's position and rotation is worked out from that. It works well, and you don't have to get lost in the math. If I do add a mobile solution to AGKVR, I will definitely look to do something similar.

Ron
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Xaby
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Posted: 23rd May 2017 16:28
So if I have no Oculus, Vive or so, but interested in Google Daydream/Cardboard, I don't benefit from the DLC?
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 23rd May 2017 17:46
Quote: "So if I have no Oculus, Vive or so, but interested in Google Daydream/Cardboard, I don't benefit from the DLC?"


That is correct at this time. AppGameKit VR currently only supports PC VR hardware, such as the HTC Vive and Oculus Rift. There are plans to expand on that in the future, but it is not currently included.

Ron
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FranzVR
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Posted: 25th May 2017 18:22
Reading about this with interest! Considering buying AppGameKit for this purpose.

Is anyone using this yet - how is it?
Would like to see some more demo videos or... even an executable project to try on my Oculus Rift!

Thanks!
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 25th May 2017 21:23
Hello FranzVR! I will see what I can do about providing you a sample program and maybe a code snippet to show how easy it is to use. How experienced are you as a programmer?

Ron
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FranzVR
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Posted: 26th May 2017 06:48
I'm an experienced beginner? I'm better at designing things than coding,
I'd like to make usable VR apps, probably "art games" etc. and hopefully sell on Steam, later iOS store.

Have used similar TNT Basic ( mac only, abandonwear ) as well as earlier forms of the language.

Tried Game Salad ( iOS 2D dev, simple block coding ) and found it somewhat lacking.
The "code inside each sprite" is both easier and more difficult to use.
Made 2 iOS apps, it's a challenging process to get them on the store with all those certificates, etc.

IF ( It's the right choice ) THEN I should buy it.
ELSE some other engine?
ENDIF
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 26th May 2017 15:18 Edited at: 26th May 2017 15:20
Quote: "IF ( It's the right choice ) THEN I should buy it.
ELSE some other engine?
ENDIF"


Haha! Well, hopefully, the code below will describe how easy it is to use. This example code allows you to walk around in a castle with collision. It is simple, but it shows how easy it is to get up and running with VR in AGKVR. As you will probably see, there is no messy math as it is all taken care of in AGKVR. There is a more complicated version of this demo that allows interaction with 3D objects using 3D physics. I will compile a version of a game example that is available with AGKVR for you to see something in action. Hopefully I can have something available for you later today!

Thanks!
Ron

+ Code Snippet
a.k.a WOLF!
Pharoseer
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Posted: 28th Jun 2017 07:28 Edited at: 28th Jun 2017 07:32
I'm loving this new VR support. I have it working with my Fove and Razer Hydras (using the Steam driver for these). It's working pretty well, though I'm getting random errors when trying to initialize. The error message I'm getting most often is "Unable to init VR runtime: Connect to VR Server Failed (301)" This happens about 25% of the time. I just kill the app, start it over and it usually works on the next attempt. That makes me think I'm missing something in my code. Or it could be just a side-effect of using the Fove which isn't officially supported.

Just in case, here's the code I'm using to initialize VR before doing anything else:
+ Code Snippet

Also, if I try to use AGKVR.ErrorMessagesOn() I get an error saying it failed to load that function from the plugin. That's not a show-stopper, but wanted to give a heads up.

[Edit] I forgot to mention that the Sleep() command did not, in fact, make the setup more resilient. It still errs out just as often. I just forgot to remove that before uploading the code snippet.
xCept
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Posted: 28th Jun 2017 22:31
I bought this DLC and am excited about it whenever I finally get a moment to return to my AppGameKit projects again. (I hadn't used my Rift in so long and let it sit apparently in a bad spot on my desk and the screen now has some sun damage, oops.)
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 29th Jun 2017 18:54
Quote: "I'm loving this new VR support. "

Awesome! I'm glad to hear it. There are a couple more demo programs that will be released in an update soon.

Quote: " I have it working with my Fove and Razer Hydras (using the Steam driver for these). "

That is great to hear that it is working well with the Fove!

Quote: "The error message I'm getting most often is "Unable to init VR runtime: Connect to VR Server Failed (301)" This happens about 25% of the time. I just kill the app, start it over and it usually works on the next attempt. That makes me think I'm missing something in my code. Or it could be just a side-effect of using the Fove which isn't officially supported."

No, it's not an error in your code. I get that error occasionally with my Vive. It seems to happen when I close the running application then try to start it again too soon after. I'll look into it more to see if I can find exactly what is going on, but it definitely isn't something you are doing wrong,

Quote: "Also, if I try to use AGKVR.ErrorMessagesOn() I get an error saying it failed to load that function from the plugin."

FYI, the error messages are on by default. That is how you are getting the "Unable to init VR runtime: Connect to VR Server Failed (301)" message. I did look in the plugin's command.txt file and found the problem. I also found similar issues with a couple other commands, so I've uploaded a new "commands.txt" file for you to use. Just place it in your "Compiler\Plugins\AGKVR" folder. I'll have the official version updated when the new demos are released.

Quote: "(I hadn't used my Rift in so long and let it sit apparently in a bad spot on my desk and the screen now has some sun damage, oops.)"

Wow! That sucks! I'll definitely keep my Vive out of the sun!

Thanks!
Ron


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Coilwinder
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Posted: 6th Jul 2017 15:20
Wow !

This is too good to be true, very cool! Even if it's made so simple that even I could run and modify a demo, this is a bit overwhelming! (The mind boggles). I don't have any immediate VR plans, as I'm otherwiseish occupied atm. Plus I don't really have any 3D game dev. experience (not anything to write about at least). But who knows, maybe in the future. I do look forward to play more with this!

However I found a bug:

I really do not like the movement direction in VR to be the same as the HMD (head) direction (different from an FPS on a 2D monitor, that is different!). I like to look around while moving, but if the direction is locked, it will be a zig-zag kind of movement.. not good if you ask me.

From the Castle demo I found the "AGKVR.LockPlayerTurn( x )" controls this. If x=1, the direction is locked to the HMD. But not if it is 0 (zero). But then it also reverses the movement direction from the right thumbpad of the Vive controllers. I'm guessing it inverts AGKVR.RightController_JoyX( ) and AGKVR.RightController_JoyY for some reason (a bug?).
Apologies for any typos and strange grammar.
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 04:24
Hello Coilwinder!

I'm glad you are liking AGKVR so far! I just did some testing with the AGKVR.LockPlayerTurn command and I am not seeing a bug. I will say though that setting it to state zero can be confusing in this demo because the player has no body that indicates the actual heading direction. So, it would be somewhat easy to get things turned around. I'll have to experiment a bit to see if I can add some sort of helper object that will give a better visual indication of the heading direction. Maybe that will make things more clear. I'm in the process of creating two more example demos to help demonstrate what can be done with AGKVR, so I may need to wait until those are complete.

Ron
a.k.a WOLF!
Coilwinder
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 07:11
Lol yes ofc! That must be what happened. I haven't tested this again just now, but I was very probably facing backwards, 180 degree off the "unlocked" forward direction. Ofc things gets a bit backwards then!

Sometimes in SteamVR I have to face the other way (180 degree) from my seated position in front of my computer to see menus etc (I guess unless there is a reset view button). I didn't think about this. So basically one needs to add a reset view function. I guess that's very doable in AppGameKit / AGKVR, only that the "Castle" demos haven't implemented any such function. I'm thinking simply(?) adding a direction offset. Should be simple (Famous last words)?

Thanks for replying!
Apologies for any typos and strange grammar.
Coilwinder
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 08:12 Edited at: 8th Jul 2017 18:50
Well I had to do a quick "backwards facing" test, but no success so far.
In the "Castle Basic" demo, I had this:

+ Code Snippet

before the main do-loop. But it didn't seem to have any effect (When I was facing backwards the movement controls were reversed as before). I also tried ( 0, 3.1415, 0 ) in case it was radians (but I'm guessing it's degrees? It's not really specified in the VR guide afaik), and even tried ( 0, 0, 0 ) in case it already was at the 180 degree rotation. No visible effect.

Also, I'm guessing "AGKVR.RotatePlayerLocalY(float Angle)" is relative (tried changing that as well, but that just resulted in some kind of flickering and I was unable to move).


Btw another thing: Sometimes it takes a few tries before the VR works. Just now I had maybe 10 tries before it would work on one occasion (usually maybe 2-5 tries? I haven't used it a lot so far). The error message I get is: "Unable to init VR runtime: Connect to VR Server Failed (301)". I wait until SteamVR says it is ready (forgot the wording just now) before I start AGKVR. I get a little black screen flickering in the HMD (I think - it's very short), and then the error message pops up.

( If this is in the wrong thread, maybe a mod can move it? )
Apologies for any typos and strange grammar.
Alien Menace
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Posted: 15th Jul 2017 09:23
The Oculus Rift is on special now for $399 and includes two touch controllers!

I love my Altair 8800 Replica.

http://altairclone.com/
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 16th Jul 2017 13:05 Edited at: 16th Jul 2017 13:06
Coilwinder,
Sorry it has taken a while to respond. I was busy trying to get the latest update finished so it could be released on Friday. It includes 2 more demo applications!

Quote: "(When I was facing backwards the movement controls were reversed as before). "

That is because if you turn off LockPlayerTurn by setting AGKVR.LockPlayerTurn( 0 ), then your the direction your player is heading is not influenced at all by the direction you are physically facing. The only way to change the heading direction is by changing the Player's rotation through the AGKVR.RotatePlayerLocalY or AGKVR.SetPlayerRotation commands. This is why keeping LockPlayerTurn enabled is preferred in most situations. I have included a modified version of the Basic Castle Demo that has an cone object at the Player's feet to point toward the heading direction of the player. Notice how turning your head (or your entire body) will not influence the heading direction. The only way to change the heading direction is to use the left controller, which turns the heading direction through the AGKVR.RotatePlayerLocalY command.

Quote: "I also tried ( 0, 3.1415, 0 ) in case it was radians (but I'm guessing it's degrees?"

It is angles, not radians.

Quote: "I'm guessing "AGKVR.RotatePlayerLocalY(float Angle)" is relative (tried changing that as well, but that just resulted in some kind of flickering and I was unable to move)."

Yes. It is relative. If you just put RotatePlayerLocalY in the main loop and are turning too much per loop, then you will definitely just see a flicker as your player is turning too fast. In the castle demo, I have the player turning at a maximum of 1 degree per loop iteration. So, of the game is running at 90 fps, it would take about a second to turn 90 degrees.

Quote: "Btw another thing: Sometimes it takes a few tries before the VR works. Just now I had maybe 10 tries before it would work on one occasion (usually maybe 2-5 tries? I haven't used it a lot so far). The error message I get is: "Unable to init VR runtime: Connect to VR Server Failed (301)". I wait until SteamVR says it is ready (forgot the wording just now) before I start AGKVR. I get a little black screen flickering in the HMD (I think - it's very short), and then the error message pops up."

As far as I can tell, the error occurs if you try to initialize again too soon after closing your application. SteamVR has not fully recovered and you try to start the application again. While it is easy to run into that situation while we are making small tweaks to code, you will rarely run into that scenario in real practice. A player isn't usually going to close the application and immediately restart it again.

Alien Menace,
Quote: "The Oculus Rift is on special now for $399 and includes two touch controllers! "

Yes! That is a fantastic deal!

Ron
a.k.a WOLF!
Coilwinder
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Posted: 18th Jul 2017 19:24
Ron Erickson:

I just wanted to thank you for a thorough answer!

It seems I went about the reset view thing wrong then. I need to look at this some more. I'd like to add that fixing forward direction to be the same as the HMD direction doesn't feel natural to me. I guess it's tolerable in some games, but usually I think it's a bit jarring. It's a different thing than flat-screen FPS's imho. But I won't go on about that now, I may make a new thread if I have more questions about this later (which seems likely).

Oh, about angles... in degrees, right?

Looking forward to check out those demos!
Apologies for any typos and strange grammar.
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 19th Jul 2017 15:30
Quote: " I'd like to add that fixing forward direction to be the same as the HMD direction doesn't feel natural to me. I guess it's tolerable in some games, but usually I think it's a bit jarring. It's a different thing than flat-screen FPS's imho. But I won't go on about that now, I may make a new thread if I have more questions about this later (which seems likely).
"

I do understand that preference! Just remember that if you want to make games where the turn angle is not locked to the HMD, then you must use something else besides the HMD to control the turn angle. The only thing the tracking sensors can do is detect the position and rotation of the HMD and controllers. It has no idea which way your body is actually oriented. So, if you physically turn your body around to face the other direction, the tracker doesn't the difference between that and just turning your head to look behind you. So, the direction that the player is headed must be controlled manually (which can be confusing!) if you don't lock it to the HMD.

Quote: "
Oh, about angles... in degrees, right?"

LOL! Yes. Sorry for that. It is DEGREES! Haha! I must have been thinking ahead of my typing.
a.k.a WOLF!

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