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AppGameKit Chat / [STICKY] We need your help!

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RickV
TGC Development Director
18
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Joined: 27th Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 5th Jun 2018 15:21
Hi,

We are researching potential marketing avenues to promote AppGameKit - could you tell us what you read/which websites you use to find out about new products?

Anything you can share about how you hear about new game engines and software products would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick
Development Director
TGC Team
fubarpk
AGK Developer
Gold Codemaster
13
Years of Service
Recently Online
Joined: 11th Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posted: 5th Jun 2018 22:08 Edited at: 5th Jun 2018 23:04
A brief History

I did a google search firstly for "free game making engines" ide already tried to make sense of the direct x documentation
and had come from a vast range of other tools. Like Applesoft for the Apple and STOSS for my Atari. I searched long and
hard looking for something that was not click and play but still easy to learn. I was hoping for something similar to STOSS
with the ability to do similar on a superior machine. I checked many sites which gave ratings and comparisons of different
tools available. To be quite frank I installed allot of Crap lol There was one that I tried I forget its name but it was too buggy
to keep me interested. Dark Basic had appealed to me and the forum support made it very appealing, this is one of the
drawbacks ive found with wanting to use Unity. A quick search of there forums I found the same question being asked over
and over again with people insulting NOOBS for no reason. Quite Different to the AppGameKit forums which even get a little heated
at times. So the Moderated forum support here is great and the willingness of others to share their code and help others
keeps the forum good. The ongoing development of TGC products is another real bonus. So I figure getting reviews on other
sites and making the lists of like top 100 engines etc even if AppGameKit rated lower it would still make it more accessible and people
like myself would more than likely find and use it.

That's how I found Darkbasic which led me to using GDK and during University I was looking for ways to develop on pc for
Apple Iphones. After many hours searching on google reading ratings and reviews and seeing allot of garbage. I ended up
here. I did try my hand at some Java development for mobile which wasn't all that successful and finished with AGK. At the
time I was looking for a way to develop a project that would hit the Apple Store for a University Subject called Mobile Application
Development. Fortunately the project never had to be completed to pass, it was more about the marketing and development
stages. But that subject got me interested in AppGameKit and back to the TGC products

Google paid advertising I don't believe is worth the money
I usually ignore the top paid advertising links unless I see the same link coming up again in the search results
fubar
puzzler2018
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Joined: 8th Oct 2017
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Posted: 5th Jun 2018 22:20
The ones for marketing for me is :-

- Create a Youtube channel solely for TGC and get game developing subscribers on board.

- Kik - search "Programming" and often find others out there with groups on programming - ok these are generally for other languages but can always nudge in AppGameKit direction.

- Of course there is Facebook / Twitter

- Steam

I will promote AppGameKit as and where necessary.

Maybe an idea is what you could do is provide the game developers more into AppGameKit to intice them in. e.g. I think you have done us all proud with IOS / Raspberry / Linux / Visual C++ / now C# conversions (free I might add) anyway so congrats to you for doing so well

and keep it going....

Zigi
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Posted: 5th Jun 2018 22:23 Edited at: 5th Jun 2018 22:36
The only place I do visit daily for game dev related news and reviews is http://www.gamefromscratch.com/ his also got a youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/gamefromscratch
The guy doing a pretty good job on collecting the latest info about game development tools in general, not only engines but also 3d modelling and paint tools, level editors anything game dev related..
Other than that, I also do a google search once a month for game engines to see if anything new comes up. I think the best way to promote AppGameKit is to improve the ranking in search engines for queries like:

2D Game Development, Game Engine
3D Game Development , Game Engine
Cross Platform Game Development, Game Engine
Mobile Game Development, Game Engine
Easy and Fast Game Development, Game Engine, Framework

This is what I normally search for, plus including the platform or programming language in case I'm looking for something more specific like HTML5, Android, JavaScript, Lua, C# and .NET (most recently)

I also search Steam and itch.io for game engines and tools time to time.
puzzler2018
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Joined: 8th Oct 2017
Location:
Posted: 5th Jun 2018 22:45
Hi Rick,

Just wondering if there is a Donate facility - i dont mind what so ever to do so. Maybe each time an AppGameKit update comes out I would be more than happy to do a donation to help you guys along

Thanks


janbo
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Posted: 5th Jun 2018 23:18 Edited at: 5th Jun 2018 23:19
I think the best advertisement is to show a good product made with this tool.
And the best/biggest platform for games is Steam, I guess.
So just get a top notch game made with AppGameKit on Steam
3D with nice Graphics... but I'm in, no matter what game you make
Zigi
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Posted: 5th Jun 2018 23:25
How about an open-source game made by the community?
TGC could work out the details and kick things off by releasing a base model and a to-do list to AppGameKit owners and publish the most stable build on Steam to promote AGK. For free or paid I don't mind.
How about a survey to find out how many people would be interested in contributing to a community made game for free, and how many of them has also the skills in coding or 2D or 3D art and go from there.
puzzler2018
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Posted: 5th Jun 2018 23:27
Thanks Janbo.. With the minecraft one going on - im sure if we publish this game out into the world to say that AppGameKit have capabilities of the extreme, then worlds our oyster.

Create something so large, so spectacular, so awesome to woo everyone in
BatVink
Moderator
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Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 6th Jun 2018 10:17
My first thought is that most people don't want to code a game. They want to have a completed game to show their friends, coding it is an obstacle to the dream. People who know how to code generally don't want to be associated with a language that dumbs down the process. (I don't mean dumb down in a demeaning way, this is exactly what newcomers need). I wouldn't target coding forums and sites.

Echoes+, 1982, Mono, Duo - this level of high adrenalin game is a testament to what can be achieved. If you showed me this and told me how to make something similar with a coding environment that simplified the difficult stuff, I would be in. Tell me I can load the resources in a couple of lines. tell me that I can set an animation in motion and it will look after itself. Tell me that sprites can collide without any mathematics involved.

I think the TGC market is people who already have an idea, and want to realise it. Shortcuts to making the idea happen are key.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 6th Jun 2018 13:33
I'm not much help because I don't actively search out new games or development. About the only site I read on a regular basis is slashdot. If you could get listed on slashdot you'd have reached just about every computer nerd on the planet.
Tiled TMX Importer V.2
XML Parser V.2
Base64 Encoder/Decoder
Purple Token - Free online hi-score database
Legend of Zelda

"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
Rick Nasher
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Posted: 6th Jun 2018 20:48
I personally was already interested in game coding ever since I've seen the ZX-81. What drove me to AppGameKit are it's cross platform, 3d gfx with shadows, shaders and such, physics and networking features. Things that in Blitz3d were never properly updated.

After Blitz I first gave Unity a try, it being advertised as the so called de facto standard, right after the Unreal Engine. But I found it was too much of an OOP spaghetti thing, with too many switches. Also they didn't seem to keep their coding examples in line with their updates and changes (bug hunting was a nightmare) and it definitely lacked scalability.
I heard the same argument from many other people, so guess there's a lesson to be learned there.

I saw some Unity tutorial videos on YouTube and accidentally stumbled upon some AppGameKit videos. Someone else over at coders forum SyntaxBomb mentioned The Game Company's AppGameKit now had 3d and mentioned it had come a long way. Being skeptic at first I still took a peek, for the videos where looking interesting and it won me over pretty soon when I'd tested the features and it's sheer FPS speed.
Haven't regretted buying it yet.


I think the 3d abilities of the AppGameKit language are very visually under advertised, but those really would attract a lot of attention, which can be seen from e.g. Unity's tutorials.

Some full 3d game examples(only few levels) and videos of these on the main AppGameKit site and YouTube might help to showcase and sell the product for it shows it's full potential and teaches people how to accomplish things. (Also one of the reasons I'm building an open source multiplayer 3d 1st/3rd person game, so newcomers can find how to do it, but progress is slow due to my current health state/work).

Demo game coding examples I feel might advertise the language's full potential and lure people in are for instance a racing game, platformer and multiplayer shooter.
The later should be easy to bring over from GameGuru.

Anyhow, hope this gives some ideas.















shadey
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Posted: 6th Jun 2018 22:06 Edited at: 6th Jun 2018 23:15
Was better back in the day, when you could buy computer magazines, I think I heard of AMOS back then in an Amiga mag.
Hail to the king, baby!
BatVink
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Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 7th Jun 2018 10:37
Quote: "Was better back in the day, when you could buy computer magazines"


That's where I found DarkBASIC
It was a double-page spread with DB on one side, and Blitz on the other.
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Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
EdzUp
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Posted: 7th Jun 2018 19:57
I got a demo of DB Classic from PC Format and used it to make a basic star system demo after that I bought it and created Star Flight 2000.

After a hiatus looking at other systems I returned to TGC using the AppGameKit system and here I am.
-EdzUp
SpecTre
Developer
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Posted: 10th Jun 2018 01:21
It's got to be social networking these days I think really. I use Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc on a daily basis, generally looking through everything before even starting on any projects and also in-between work but these sites have to have regular updates, at least monthly with lots of stuff and not just random updates when a release is ready etc. to keep interest and subscribers.
I think if you had something going like this it would attract more people as the word would get around more with constant talking about your products and not just AGC as all products could be talked about this way. It would not happen overnight but it has to be regular, talking about the products which would work.

At the end of the day you have a lot of good quality products to talk about to social network sites for TGC which could talk about everything like:

AGK
RPG World
GameGuru
Driving Test Success
Etc, etc.

but like I said it has to be constant I think.

BatVink
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Posted: 10th Jun 2018 18:01
Quote: " but these sites have to have regular updates, "


Agreed. There is so much noise out there that you are very quickly out of sight, out of mind.
You need a backlog of posts, articles, blogs, tutorials, announcements etc to call upon on a regular basis.
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Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
fubarpk
AGK Developer
Gold Codemaster
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Location: Adelaide
Posted: 10th Jun 2018 23:51 Edited at: 10th Jun 2018 23:58
Im not sure if this is the right place to comment

There is allot of fantastic information about programming using TGC tools. There is youtube tutorials, newsletters, codebase etc
but I think a page that had a basic search tool that if you searched something like memblocks for example The page would return
a list of HTML links that pointed to any videos or newsletters.

Perhaps a page that had different search types in a list on a webpage cutting back on the need for indexing and slow retrieval speeds

This page could be a great way to bring newcomers as they could do a search for something and find much help easily and would
become a valuable page to bookmark for others. Information is a valuable commodity
fubar
Richard_6
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 03:17 Edited at: 11th Jun 2018 03:18
I found AppGameKit by looking at slant. I remember that I was between Lua Love and AppGameKit and chose AppGameKit because it seemed to have a better library and the way of building a game reminded me 8 bit computers.

I think more tutorials on Youtube would increase the relevance of the brand and attract more users. It would also be great if more developers from the community could post more tutorials, like mini-games, etc. Live streams on twitch would be great as well.

Not sure if TGC already invest in adwords, but if it doesn't, I'd highly recommend. It's easy to calculate ROI. In my business (related to education), we are increasing the investment due to the positive results we've got in the last past year.

I thought the gaming ads market was more competitive, but it seems if you put US market aside, there are are a lot of opportunities.

I made a quick research on SemRush and SpyFu using the keyword "game engine". These are just short insights public to anyone looking online. As much competitive it seems, CPC in UK is around $0.30 which means TGC will have to sell 1 out of 100 copies to maybe get some break even. However, if you focus more specific words like 2D Game Engine or "Tool to create games" it might get cheaper.

US:

UK:

Brazil:


Some curious information about the search value the competitors:
Unity in US:


Game Maker / Yoyo in US:


Game Maker / Yoyo in UK:


Here is another curiosity. AppGameKit Forum is the main source of results on google.


Another niche that represents a huge potential in my opinion is the retro community. Every person who had a C64, MSX, Apple II, Amiga, ZX, ST, etc. simply fall in love with AGK. So trying to be present on retro channels could be a nice move, either by participating on discussion forums, or placing ads if Google Ads is present on the page.

Overall, I agree with BatVink about how most people don't want to code a game. Visual Editor is a great addition, but still have a lot to evolve.

In other hand, there are plenty of people looking to learn programming in C++ and AppGameKit library is the best to design games imho. Finding these people in forums / related websites and letting them know about AppGameKit is a big challenge but can leverage a lot TGC expansion.
xCept
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 03:43
I agree with the others about frequency being of utmost importance. Many game engines have near daily blog updates and announcements and try to keep the community interested by describing all the things they achieve each day/week, highlighting interesting projects and featuring special topics. Most also tweet and retweet a lot to drum up discussions. TGC only makes a few tweets and posts a month for all of their products.

I opposed the decision by TGC to isolate their products and discussions into independent websites and forums. I felt my interest was at its peak across all TGC products when I was able to quickly browse the topics right from here. Now to learn about GG I have to go to a separate website and same for RPG World. The community is even more segmented because each of these products also has a Steam community (which I know is not in TGC's control but also doubles the effort needed to keep track of topics in all areas).

I believe that some level of community engagement was lost when the daily blogs (for GG) and weekly blogs (for AGK) stopped. Now it can be months at times before announcements are made about AppGameKit updates and so on, so the community is left in the dark about what is being worked on, what new features are planned or any kind of road map. I don't mind the element of surprise but from a perspective of keeping members interested there really needs to be more frequent updates.

P.S., I really miss the original newsletters that TGC put out each month. That was the source where I learned about and became personally vested in almost every TGC product from DBP onward. I actually looked forward to them as much as any magazine subscription each month just to catch up on everything and read in-depth stories. I found the format and content a lot different and more informative than just the latest news on the home page, which primarily deals just with TGC releases and updates.
c0d3r9
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 08:05 Edited at: 11th Jun 2018 08:11
And maybe it would be good to give the forum a modern look. I miss it then one does not immediately see where there are new topics(on the forum main index).
An different colored icon like on so much other forums.
The news notification does not work either. And the forum is in my opinion too far away from the main page.
On the main page should be shown more what is possible with Appgamekit.

Quote: "I believe that some level of community engagement was lost when the daily blogs (for GG) and weekly blogs (for AGK) stopped. Now it can be months at times before announcements are made about AppGameKit updates and so on, so the community is left in the dark about what is being worked on, what new features are planned or any kind of road map. I don't mind the element of surprise but from a perspective of keeping members interested there really needs to be more frequent updates.

P.S., I really miss the original newsletters that TGC put out each month. That was the source where I learned about and became personally vested in almost every TGC product from DBP onward. I actually looked forward to them as much as any magazine subscription each month just to catch up on everything and read in-depth stories. I found the format and content a lot different and more informative than just the latest news on the home page, which primarily deals just with TGC releases and updates. "


100% agreement.
Countless engines have fallen asleep over the years. More movement must be felt.
Zigi
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 08:40 Edited at: 11th Jun 2018 09:20
Quote: "frequency being of utmost importance. Many game engines have near daily blog updates"

I remember it was a topic when TGC decided to stop selling 3rd party content and removed all FPSC model packs and 3rd party software from the TGC store.
At the time TGC told they don't have the budget to employ someone to write articles daily, but I also remember that someone did offered to do it for free. Not sure what happened there after but I also support the idea of a daily or at least weekly newsletter again including topics like:

-community projects in the works (any update on interesting projects the community is working on)
-released community projects (any polished game or tool the community has released)
-useful tools and resources (anything game dev related, in case it is useful to GameGuru or AppGameKit developers, we want to know about it)
-behind the scenes (What Paul and Lee is working on right now, what progress they made, what next, what TGC as a software company is up to..etc)
-help and advice (small tutorials on bits and pieces to help solve certain task, work around problems don't need to be long just something as someone knows best AppGameKit and GameGuru and having years of experience in the industry suggest what to watch out for, what mistakes to avoid and how)

I'm sure a frequently released newsletter could help to make people interested and make them come back for the news but I guess it is also depends on the community and TGC. In case there is no news to share, it is difficult to write an article about nothing.
Maybe the best would be what one of my favourite HTML5 framework does, they release every single news, tutorials, articles immediately as they come so there is something to read about daily then wrap up everything in to a news letter for people visit the website less frequently. But again, 90% of content is coming from the community including tutorials and development as it is an open-source engine with a community version that is actively developed solely by the community and there is also a game released by the community almost every single day. The community is very active and there is a lot to write about. Not sure if it would be the case with TGC/GameGuru/AppGameKit.

But there are things I don't remember being mentioned by TGC in the news. For example, I have noticed on the AppGameKit website TGC now accept contracted jobs for basically anything to be developed in AppGameKit, mostly games I guess but they did not mention it in the news. Wondering what else is there they are not telling us
nonom
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 12:33
RickV wrote: "Anything you can share about how you hear about new game engines and software products would be very much appreciated."


That's the best start in my opinion. I'll do.
http://www.nyan.cat/pirate
zeux
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 13:19
Long time ago i developed with AMOS so i wanted something similar for fast POC / experimatation. It led me to Blitz3d / DarkBasic / Moneky Engine and AppGameKit on kickstarter..

Regarding potential avenues for promotion, provide a version of AppGameKit for Jam like yoyo games does for gamemaker: https://ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/41/$73264/promo-free-gamemaker-studio-2-for-ld41
Kevin Cross
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 14:06
I regularly search for cross platform languages/tools that are as simple to use as AppGameKit, most of the time with a Google search. One site that pops up quite a lot in my searches is slant.co.

In my opinion you need to take a look at your showcase page and be a bit more picky as to what gets shown on there if you're trying to push and promote it as a good engine because there's some on there that can't be doing well for the overall image.
Jambo B
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Posted: 11th Jun 2018 20:32 Edited at: 11th Jun 2018 20:32
I think a lot of ways in which young people learn about game engines/languages is through their school - an excellent idea to do the 'free for education' thing. I think you may be onto an emerging customer base with this. The key now is support. There are some useful articles and videos with the ed package, but what would really move things forward is renting space at some of the Local Authority education conferences, e.g.

http://www.services.derbyshire.gov.uk/Event/52223

The times when I've been to the above event, it has been more geared towards primary (although I use AppGameKit with Y6 pupils). There are bound to be other events in other Local Authorities - including some for secondary schools.

You could use this space to promote AppGameKit, supply training materials, etc.

Just a thought!

James
Increase
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Posted: 13th Jun 2018 16:41 Edited at: 13th Jun 2018 16:46
AppGameKit V 3.0 ! Development could be the best promotion -

I'd imagine seeing the AppGameKit command set integrated with Code_Blocks - which is open source - so you should be able to use it commercially.

A fast C++ IDE, like the IDE for BASIC , just now it is possible to code and cross-platform deploy in C++ with all the handy AppGameKit commands.

I would imagine it being fast & easily implementable and therefore attractive for a broad spectrum of people.

I don't know the amount of work and knowledge needed to realize this project, but if it is in the realm of possibilites, it might be worth it.

I think this would sell like fresh buns.
Zigi
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Posted: 13th Jun 2018 21:43 Edited at: 13th Jun 2018 21:55
I have almost forget that, when I was getting started with Linux for the first time in my life I was searching a lot for software and game engines that runs on Linux alternatives to one I was using on Windows. Later alternativeto.net become sort of my central hub to see what software is out there for Linux.
Since then, the website has improved a lot and now it is not only about finding alternative software for Linux but to find alternatives for anything. So you can just type in the name of the software and the website collecting for you all the similar apps out there, all the alternatives.
People can vote on the apps, add pros and cons, mark an app as good or best alternative for something and the ones with the better score come out on top when people searching for alternatives for a specific software.

https://alternativeto.net

It seems like AppGameKit is not in their database.
So what I recommend to do is login on the website and submit AppGameKit to be added to the database. Anyone can do it, but I think TGC should do it as need to share a great deal information about the software including description and store information, pricing, licensing.
Once they have AppGameKit in their database, TGC need to encourage the community to go there and VOTE for AppGameKit as GOOD alternative to other engines and also mark AppGameKit as the BEST alternative to other game development tools, engines, frameworks and add pros and cons...

I don't personally use this website often now days because I know what I want to use and I'm not interested in what alternatives are out there but people searching for alternatives definitely going to come across this website once or twice.
Arbrakan
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Posted: 13th Jun 2018 22:37
VoidMorrow
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Posted: 16th Jun 2018 09:03
I've been around a long time so no clue what I searched for. I would definitely say broadening exposure on the major players would help: Google, Amazon, YouTube, etc. I get a lot of my game coding related links from google, and youtube, but I spend as much time on sites like Github as anything else.
Zigi
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Posted: 18th Jun 2018 14:19
I did come across this website recently, maybe it is not new but I never heard about it before:
https://www.producthunt.com/

I find it interesting because users can subscribe to different topics and tools and get notifications on the home page about new products and updates . People can also vote and review products. I can also see some job posts from all over the world which indicates that this site is trying to be some sort of central hub, all-in-one solution for companies, developers and users.

Maybe it would make sense if TGC would register here and put AppGameKit up and put news and updates up.
In theory all people subscribed for developer tools category should get a notification once AppGameKit got a product page up. At least I think this is how it works. It got some marketing potential I think.
Blendman
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Posted: 19th Jun 2018 14:24
Hi

I think a good idea for the studio orinidie dev should be to post code on thiskindof site : https://www.sellmyapp.com
On this site, you can sell your code.

So its interesting for several things :
- pub/advert for agk, to show what we can do with agk.
- win money in selling code
- interest for indie dev or indie studio

Other sites like that :
https://codecanyon.net/category/mobile/android
https://www.chupamobile.com
https://www.gamegorillaz.com
https://www.digifloor.com/top-9-mobile-apps-marketplace-buy-sell-source-code-21



AGK2 tier1 - http://www.dracaena-studio.com
Rich Dersheimer
AGK Developer
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Posted: 19th Jun 2018 21:43
The sites I visit most, in regards to gaming/coding, are slashdot.org, boingboing.net, penny-arcade.com.
Zigi
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Posted: 21st Jun 2018 15:25
Submited AppGameKit to alternatieto, we need only 200 likes to come out on top in searches and we can also suggest AppGameKit to be the best alternative to other tools and frameworks, add pros, cons, reviews which is going to help if it coming up to the top.
https://alternativeto.net/software/appgamekit/

RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 29th Jun 2018 10:36
Thank you everyone for your ideas and input - invaluable!!!

There's many of these that we can action so a BIG thank you
Development Director
TGC Team
Kevin Cross
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Location: London, UK
Posted: 29th Jun 2018 10:49 Edited at: 29th Jun 2018 10:54
Quote: "Submited AppGameKit to alternatieto, we need only 200 likes to come out on top in searches and we can also suggest AppGameKit to be the best alternative to other tools and frameworks, add pros, cons, reviews which is going to help if it coming up to the top.
https://alternativeto.net/software/appgamekit/"

I often check out alternativeto but never signed up for an account. I've signed up now just to add a like.

Just noticed though that Unity only has 256 likes so I can't see AppGameKit ever reaching the 200 point.
Zigi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2018 14:59
Quote: "Just noticed though that Unity only has 256 likes so I can't see AppGameKit ever reaching the 200 point."

Unity doesn't really need more likes, that 256 likes made Unity to come out on top for any alternative you search for and it is one of the most popular engines out there anyway.
But I need to agree, even though you can login at alternativeto.net with your google and facebook account, not many people seems to care to press a like button not to mention to take the time to flag AppGameKit as a good or even best alternative to other frameworks and engines....
c0d3r9
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Posted: 29th Jun 2018 15:58
I do....some days ago
CrazySteve
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Posted: 30th Jun 2018 00:42
For me definitely You Tube How-To Videos do the trick. I believe developers are DIY by nature so I looked there first searching for mobile app development and found videos to get started.
Once I tried it out and confirmed this could deploy to Google, iOS, and Amazon it seemed like a good choice. So far I have not been disappointed! Also all of the "series" that are out there are really great guides, wish there were a few hundred more



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