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AppGameKit Classic Chat / I Used to Think I Was a Very Fast Game Developer... Not So Sure Now.... How About You?

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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2018 20:52 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2018 20:56
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Hey folks.

For a long time like I am talking back on the Amiga days even I strived to continually improve my skills and processes to be a very efficient developer.
To a lot of people I am very fast at making games but I have noticed a growing number of incredibly fast game developers out there.

Take a look at the entries in the last Ludum Dare (LD42) for example and considering only the Compo entries done by a single person we can see that 1,056 individuals made a game entirely from scratch within 48 hours. I think this is quite incredible. Even more so considering many of these are the first games ever made by the person. And furthermore many of the games were actually made in less than 1 day due to that being all the time the people had available in the weekend.

This is not an isolated phenomenon by any means. The number of developers entering these game jams and completing (sometimes highly polished) games within 2 days is continually growing. The Game Maker's Tool Kit Jam 2018 was this past weekend. 1,158 games were made within 2 days. Again many being the first game made by the person.

Granted, many of these people have created a dozen or more games (as can be seen in their profiles) and obviously the more games a person completes.... the more times a person goes through that process... the more efficient they will become. Knowledge increases, skill increases, speed increases. Makes sense. But still it is quite impressive in my opinion to see the games people are now making in a single weekend. Just a few years ago such games were often unfinished and very rough. Now many are not only finished but highly polished as well. And again it's particularly impressive for the people where this is there first "real" game ever even if those games are pretty basic & rough.

Honestly, even with all of my game dev experience I don't think I could complete many of these games within the same time frame. Certainly not within 2 days start to finish because that would only be maybe 8 hours of dev time at the most for me. But I mean even going by the number of development hours say 24 hours max.

Makes me wonder what do you folks think of this? Could you create these games (the pages of entries I linked to above) within 2 days start to finish?



Alright time for me to get some work done on my TD game.
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2018 20:58 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2018 21:00
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If I had a full weekend to myself with no interruptions and solely focusing on something like this - then yeah - its achievable. But I always have dinner to make, shopping, tidying up to do which makes things slightly more exhausting to do anything in 48 hours

I wont be surprised on how long its taking me to learn how to develop that Minecraft thing - never mind 48 hours lol
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2018 22:08
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Usually the speed and invested brainpower in - about any project - is - very comprehended - in last iteration - either driven by money or sex.

The older a person gets, the more skillful he/she usually gets, but by the same token also more wise and far-sighted and in the process more averse of making him/herself slave to his/her own shoot.






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puzzler2018
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2018 22:14
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I leave you to think about that gar
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2018 22:22 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2018 22:42
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LOL! Increase I'm not quite sure what you were getting at but it gave me a laugh anyway.

Here I am talking about the efficiency of game development. Getting things done in a very timely manner. I agree completely that as a person gains experience they become more & more efficient up until the limits are reached. However what I am seeing in these game jams is a kind of anomaly where people of all ages are entering and some of them seemingly regardless of age and experience are able to create games very efficiently. It is kind of an X factor in a sense and I am wondering what it is.

There are many of them of all ages who create the same bare bones entries as was seen years ago and there are others of all ages who are creating works that would have taken a week before. It doesn't seem to be age or experience making the difference here but something else.

My guess is many of these folks are primarily artists who have found certain tools that allow them to knock out games very quickly. They produce good art quickly from their experience as an artist and they "program" the game rapidly using some kind of visual programming interface. I mean some of these people are making multi-level polished games in a weekend. 2 days. I have watched quite a few of the YT videos and bits of live streams where they do record the game jam develop showing yes indeed everything was created in that time. And I think that has to be it... normally the polishing phase would take a lot of time and of course an artist would get it done much faster. And the logic side of things seems like everything they want to do whether comparing the difference of vectors, angles, rotate to face a target whatever it is anything basically it almost seems like there is a built in function or something to do it with no knowldge of the math or anything else required. My best guess anyway.

I just find it interesting because I am always looking for ways to make dev more efficient.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
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29 games
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2018 23:01
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I'm a really slow developer and I often have whole weekends when I have nothing else to do (having shirked all other responsibilities). I think it once took me a month to finish a twenty line challenge in DBPro.

I would like to do something like Ludum Dare but there is no way I could produce anything in that kind of time span. What also puts me off is the whole social media aspect of the competition, from what I remember they award points for posting updates and commenting on other developer's games.

I think to do most of the 48 hour competitions you have to know the tools you're using inside and out. You can't be stopping every five minutes to look at help files or experiment. You just have to go at it with a single minded focus.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2018 23:09 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2018 23:48
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29 Games... yes that is exactly it. That is what hit me while writing my post above. They are so fast because ALL time is spent on moving the project forward other than when chatting with the folks on the live stream. They NEVER stop "how do I do this?" other than typing something maybe 2 to 3 times and relevant function / action pops up. See that is what I think people may not understand if they have never watched those. These folks are sitting there developing AND chatting with the viewers the entire time and still making these games.

I think it goes beyond even knowing their tools inside & out it is almost like they don't even really need to. It's like I watched parts of one dev this weekend for the GMTK 2018 jam. He had a tilemap done in like minutes. It required near 0 effort & time to create the tilemap 0 time to load it and 0 time to make use of it. Basically he drew it and presto when he ran the program it was there with full collisons active. That is what the difference is. Some of these game dev frameworks/engines make it dead simple... like anything & everything they want to do is built in. They want a scaling bouncing FX on the title words two clicks done. Lol I can't possibly code it that fast.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2018 23:48 Edited at: 4th Sep 2018 02:28
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Well not literally everything but ALL basics are there I mean. All of the fundamentals that are needed are built-in. And one could certainly argue that is the way it should be.

I know while working on my tower defense... well I decided to try to take advantage of more of what the api has to offer... and I kept typing in function names GetAngleDifference, GetShortestRotationDirectionToAngle, etc just the very basics needed to do simple stuff such as implementing tracking with rotating turrets and nothing came up so then went to the docs and couldn't find anything there either. Maybe it is implemented but I didn't find it if it is. It is all of this little stuff that adds up to a lot of time.

I don't think there is even a function built in to make a sprite rotate to face another sprite. Yes we can do all of this stuff by using the appropriate mathematical algorithms. I am doing it in my tower defense game but it would make a lot of sense for such basic stuff to be included. Actually some of this at least making one object face another is included for 3D but not for sprites for some reason.

I think what I am doing is basically just building up a massive library over time to be included in all projects that have all of this basic fundamental stuff implemented as I need it and write it of course.

Alright well thanks for the discussion... the X factor has been identified I think. It is all of this basic stuff already being implemented in certain engines that allows those people to develop so damn fast. It's very basic stuff really but that it is all right there means there is virtually no time spent on it. OR MAYBE I NEED TO LOOK AT THE BUILT-IN PHYSICS AND WILL FIND WE HAVE ALL OF THIS BASIC STUFF ALREADY IN THERE. Ha ha ha

And for me personally some of it is my mindset and background. Like I write a simple vector normalize function in about 40 lines of code based on how I would do it on a C64 or back in the Amiga days out of habit. Except then it would be loaded into lookup tables for performance. lol I am working on changing that though because I am slowly coming to the conclusion doing all of this has little, if any, value these days. Well I mean when the day comes that I retire and get my old Amiga out of the garage and hook it up sure then it makes sense to avoid expensive higher math functions and such but not in 2018.

And I also think that these games being made in the jams although they are interesting are probably not as complex as the stuff we are doing here. So that plays a part as well. Like I think someone could easily make a tower defense game in a weekend but having 4 different tower types with distinct behavior and stats as well as upgradable through 5 levels... that might be actually more difficult in their engines. I will have to look and see but but does seem like the td games I have seen come out of jams generally are like towers that can shoot straight only or in 360 degrees with either no turret involved or if there is one it points instantly to face the enemy. Not sure if that is just because not necessary for the jam so shortcut taken or if because is complicated for them to do.
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[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
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Phaelax
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Posted: 4th Sep 2018 19:07
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I am NOT a fast developer! I get sidetracked too easily and the older I get the more things I have to do. In my early 20s I could dedicate an entire weekend to coding, without sleep even.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 4th Sep 2018 21:31 Edited at: 4th Sep 2018 21:35
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At 51 I don't have nearly the time I had many years ago but I do have plenty of energy mainly from working out a lot keeps me young. Lol

Because I have less time it makes me strive to become even more efficient and I guess this is why I notice such things as the games some of these people are making in a weekend. Particularly the ones who say this is their first one and just got into game dev a bit ago.

Like I said I think a big boost to productivity would come from having the api filled out more. I like what is there a LOT and for the most part everything I need is in it but with this current game project I have found many holes of tiny bits of functionality that are missing.

It is just basic stuff that other folks out there take for granted and I think it is important we have this comprehensive set of fundamental functionality too. Because this is what steals time away... when working on something then you spend time typing in function names nothing pops up then you search docs and find that a very basic fundamental thing is missing. So then you write it yourself. And this happens again and again and again.

Nothing will have every single thing but I would like to see us get to the point of having as much of this basic critical functionality as the other developers have available.

So what I would like to do is soon post the beginnings of a framework with these missing tidbits in the hopes others can add other missing yet very commonly needed tidbits of functionality to it as well.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
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tboy
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Posted: 7th Sep 2018 08:32
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Dont be fooled by the illusion of quick development, most folk build up a plethora of code examples over time
to use in existing projects.

In the context of Game Jams where developers create an original piece in a matter of hours is another illusion.

If you create many games you can usually pick one to fit most jam 'themes' or slightly modify them to fit.

I certainly don't believe people when they boast about creating something over a weekend - more like over
several weekends!
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 7th Sep 2018 14:02 Edited at: 7th Sep 2018 17:21
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@tboy I think some people do that for sure. Use art they already made months before or maybe they started on a game 2 weeks earlier and finish it in the jam.

But many aren't doing that. Sure many would be building on their own code libraries or using open source stuff. That's expected when dealing with such a short timeframe. And anyone can do the same.

I have a lot of code from previous projects that I can use and I often use pieces here and there. Just as important is establishing patterns. In my games even the ones released as source here they all basically follow the same patterns. Patterns that work for me that I came up with over the course of many projects. And because the pattern is the same it makes development faster.

Saying all of that... I mainly go by the people who do live streams of their development or at the least have videos showing the entire development. There are a lot of people doing this now. These folks are truly building their games start to finish in a weekend right inside the live streams in fact they often let the viewers give input to add this and that.









Here are a bunch of Ludum Dare Live Steamers.


Anyway yes I am aware of the illusion part where some people will always "cheat" so to speak but the ones I am interested in are the ones where clearly they really are making the entire games beginning to end during the weekend game jam time frame. Particularly I am impressed by the ones who are able to complete multiple levels and either create a fairly large unpolished game or a smaller but highly polished games.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
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Xaby
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Posted: 9th Sep 2018 19:55
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48 hours? I guess, that is not true.

Here is why. Why I take pictures of people, I ask the people, if they have time and develope my ideas. Ask the makeup artist, and schedule it at a time. Maybe it took me maybe two weeks, a month, or half a year. Taking the picture and maybe retouching it, develope and produce the result takes about some hours.
So the question is, how much time do you use, to develope your idea. It is like a magic trick. Copperfield will present the trick in some minutes, but he practise this trick over and over again. So how long does it take?
The same goes for art and drawing. Or 3D construction, modeling. And also for programming.

First rule for me would be, don't be creative at those contest. No experiments. Do only things you have done over and over again.
Art? You could practise creating art. Music and Sound.

I also guess, that you don't need 48 hours. Make a game in 3 hours. The core would be nearly the same every time.

--> loading Assets, how? In a loop, text files
--> know your tools. Creating Sounds, using Bfxr https://www.bfxr.net/
--> your concept and game mechanics are 2D
--> don't use physics (Box2D, Bullet ...)
--> don't use complecated controll shemes. Keyboard or XBox 360 gamepad controller. Don't implement both (would be better, but complecated)
--> no analog stick thingly

There are only two options in 2D.
--> Super Mario Bros
--> or Zelda

Sideview or from the top. You don't decide in the 48h jam, you think about that before.

Bomberman? -> Zelda.
Command & Conquer -> Zelda

What about polish art? Animations and so on?

Reduction is key. 2 Frames for walking. 1 Frame for hitting. Tiles looking abstract.


3 hours for your core.
1 hours for art.
1 hours for the music and sound effects
1 hour for creating levels
1 hour for finishing all and testing

No social media, no youtube. You could use the AppGameKit offline help. No boards or forums. Plug off the telephone. You have to buy your food before.

You can't do art?
..........
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==> /\ don't overthink the things.

(this post is very exaggerated)
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 9th Sep 2018 20:57 Edited at: 9th Sep 2018 23:10
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A lot of what you said are good things for how they approach it.

Absolutely sticking with the same kind of game over and over and over would make a person very fast at building that specific game type. R&D / experimentation is very expensive and a LD is no place for it. I get that.

Like I said the ones that interest me are people not doing all of the things that people would think they are doing. Not using art they already have. Not doing the same kind of game over and over and over etc. Basically when you watch their dev it is very much like normal game dev is period. Thinking about what to do, how to do it and then doing it except it is compressed into a weekend.

There are many of them out there I mean just the last LD and GMTK jams each had over 1,000 games submitted. And of those some percentage were truly completely made within the that weekend window. Lot of it is just experience no doubt about that.

Like this guy has completed about 18 games now and here are a couple of games he made in a weekend from scratch.





These are very well done games in general. I mean if a person here spent even a few weeks on one of these games and posted it in the Showcase I think most of us would think that's pretty cool. Nice work! So to realize these were made on camera within 48 hours with no pre-planning etc because the theme of the jam is not even known before hand and in this particular guy's case he takes requests from his Patreon Supporters to add this and that and this. So then he has to figure out how to work that in too. lol

Anyway saying all of that I was thinking.... I think really the biggest thing here is just the single weekend thing and in reality these folks are probably no faster than I am (and others here).

I made this game in 36 hours...


And this one took 42 hours...


Granted I did accept a bit of help with these games on some of the art and music (for example in Atlantic Crisis Ayrton took my shark image and animated it swimming & drew the jelly fish creatures and Froggy-Anselmo created the excellent gameplay music). But I was also using Unity which I found to be a real pain in the ass to develop 2D games in and developed everything in my normal way while wrestling with the Unity architecture.

Basically what I am getting at is I notice some of these folks are actually spending close to 35+ hours working on their games in those single weekends. They get in the zone and just keep on pushing. Many are not putting in quite so much time but still it is very common to see them do an 8 to 12 hour stream each day. And I guess that is a big part of it as well why I find it impressive. The time I spent on Atlantic Crisis and Treasures of Ali-Gar was spread over about 3 weeks for each of those games which seems huge compared to a single weekend even though the hours spent are in the same ballpark. And even 1.5 to 2 hours per evening was too much time because it sure seemed to bother my girlfriend that I was "spending so much time" on these games. LOL Which I completely I get. By time workday is done hell a person only has maybe 5 to 6 hours of time and spending 1.5 to 2 hours of that time every night on this stuff sure that seem like you are obsessed.

So my point is maybe if we could compress 30 hours of development into a single weekend we could do the same thing.

Again though it is still impressive what they are doing. It is not a matter of just looking at the videos above and thinking I can make those in 30 hours or less because that is NOT the same thing. It is ALWAYS EASIER to clone something exactly as it is. Now if you looked at making one of these games AND set out to make them even better by adding additional mechanics that would be closer to the same experience. Anyway just saying it is a different experience to come up with an idea that matches the theme come up with the game design implement it all, develop, test, refine then polish it all "on the fly".

From what I can see the main difference between my development and these folks is I am spending too much time on the programming of the basic fundamental stuff. Implementing the actual game seems much faster for them and surely a large part of that is the engine being used. I know in this particular one used by the fella in the first two videos above for example tilemap support is built in there is no loading a file and storing data in arrays, no setting up sprites and managing drawing the stage, no implementing scrolling nothing... basically it is just done the moment you create the tilemap. And the api seems to have every function needed available from working with angles to applying visual fx and so forth.

So there is that to keep in mind but I don't like to think that way because I'd like to think AppGameKit is the best and I like programming in text. So my goal at this point is to focus on filling in the missing pieces... all of this fundamental stuff that most games need at one point or another. I think this really is the key because then a person can focus all of their programming time on implementing inportant stuff such as gameplay mechanics and polish instead of writing lower level fundamental code.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
[Unity - Treasures of Ali-Gar] [My YouTube Videos] [Twitter]
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Xaby
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 11:07
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I had a school project back in the 90's, we had about half a year for the project. I wrote some file handling stuff, string handling and so on. The other pupils started right at the beginning with there idea. They wrote line by line and created a maze via DrawLineXY() commands. They needed half a year for there project.
I began about two weeks before the submission date with the project itself. At this time, I had written something like a graphics driver. A small drawing program for icons. And know the file handling well. At this weekend two weeks before I had to release the game, I tested an idea. I tested, if I could use a textfile with letters and for every letter, make an icon.
That was easy. It was back in DOS times with Turbo Pascal 7.0 I only could allocate 64kByte at once. But I wanted 640 x 480 Pixel and 256 colors at the same time. And I wanted animation. I took a picture of me with a Video camcorder VHS-C and with an Capture card in my PC, I got the pictures into my PC. Some work with Paint Shop Pro. And inspired by Mortal Kombat and Mario Bros.
That was 1999 / 2000. At the weekend I tested my theory. And in the two weeks after, I created levels. And draw some more icons. After school.

Scince than, that was my only finished game today. I called it FolkisA (Adventures of Folki) and tried it later to work on Windows XP and DOS-Box. By today standards it looks simple. I didn't understood, how much I was ahead of my time. Because in 1998 Half Life in 3D was there and some games had full motion video and also Mario Bros was about 10 years old at this time. And Mortal Kombat II was from 1993. And also MK 4 in 3D was out in 1997. So I thought, that it was not good enough to be published or something and also didn't know, how to do it back than.

So nearly 20 years later, and I didn't get out a sequel

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Markus
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 11:39
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Quote: "Could you create these games (the pages of entries I linked to above) within 2 days start to finish?"

the most time i waste at developing because something did not work as expected. (thats because the dev tool, stupid designed librarys or buggy librarys or different operating systems (android))
u can do things fast if u have a good libray / base templates that run very well.
long ago, the time as i was cigarettes smoker i had done marvelousness.
and it is a difference if u are single or in relationship or married with kids.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 15:21 Edited at: 10th Sep 2018 15:25
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Xaby that all sounds very interesting and familiar. I remember those days well and that was truly lower level programming. Like you said we even had to write the drawing routines for many things. Fortunately the C64 had 8 sprites the hardware managed but still that was directly working with static hardware addresses. Lol

Coming from that is a blessing and a curse I think. Because we have a much deeper understanding of how this stuff all works but at the same time we tend to think too low level. At least I have and am working on changing that. Basically in 2018 writing code to load a tile map and writing code to render the tile map and handle scrolling... that is low level these days from a "competitive" perspective meaning we can bust our asses doing truly a lot of work and make something that is not as impressive as the person who has been making games for 2 years using a highly efficient game development tool.

That is the conclusion I came to finally. Hardheaded so it took time for me to get that. Lol To make better games and bigger games I cannot be wasting time on all of this fundamental stuff. And what was above & beyond 20 years ago is fundamental now. Things like basic motions, FX, working with tile maps and so forth.

20 years is a long time my friend I think maybe you should scope out a small game perhaps a sequel to that old game and create it.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
[Unity - Treasures of Ali-Gar] [My YouTube Videos] [Twitter]
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 15:24 Edited at: 10th Sep 2018 15:45
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Markus I agree with all of that and understand completely. Have run into that frustration with tools and apis / engines many times. AppGameKit has a very solid foundation. It doesn't have a large amount of built-in functionality (comparatively speaking of current engines... compared to old school stuff like C64 yes it is super full featured super advanced) but it has all the basics covered very well and seems to be very solid. That makes it ideal to build on and is why I chose it and ended up here. Now just need to build some more modern fundamentals on top of the existing api then will be in a great place I think.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
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Xaby
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 16:05
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@GarBenjamin

Do you know, why I am using AppGameKit? I tried Flash Profession CS6, I own it, but it had no Windows 8 export back than and a lot of the game programming stuff was missing. Native PlugIns were written, so you could use the buildin cameras for some devices. It was a problem with Adobe AIR, to be running great on Windows and so on.
I changed to Game Maker Studio 1.x (now 1.4) and first I was excited. Fast tile drawing with a build in editor and setting up the tiles. Getting a little game to work. But I run into problems. Compiling time was very slow. Handling large assets was a problem. Loading times are higher, you can't handle the texture loading by your own that easy. No 3D, no JPEG support and restricted file handling.
Since 2005, I guess, I am using PureBasic for small tasks. It would be possible to write a game back with it. It had Ogre 3D support. It could integrate native C++ libraries, had buildin Gadgets / Widgets / GUI elements. And is very fast in compiling. The reason, I changed to Flash Profession for gaming were the Apps. Be able to export to Android oder iOS.
Why did I use AppGameKit?

It had some features, PureBasic didn't have, some GameMaker Studio didn't have, some that Flash Professional didn't have.

But it is missing also a lot. And in comparism to PureBasic or FlashProfessional it is Buggy as hell. In comparism to GameMaker Studio it is on a par with.

Back than I would have to write a tool like Spriter or Spine in PureBasic. I guess, the idea I had around 2008. It was possible with it. In 2010 I bought Flash (Adobe Master Collection CS4 / CS5) and Flash had it all. Animation, Action Script 3, object oriented and so on. But the compiling times and the Eclipse IDE (Flash Builder) where strange in some ways. And it took a lot of GByte to install all and configure it right.
PureBasic was more about 25 MB, maybe less back in the day. Know it's under 100 MB and can handle Windows 32 API and so on. I tried also the Microsoft Visual Studio some times and tried C# Sharp. But to install all that, and setting it up and only online help ... meh ...

PureBasic is running on a slow machine, had a help file with it, also in German. So it was and in some way it is, the holy grail for me.

So why AppGameKit?

In 2013, I wanted to make a game for the OUYA. I was hyped. But know tool could do it right. Adobe wanted you to updated with money every few month for little changes. Game Maker Studio was out for a few month back then and was slow back than as hell. And AppGameKit? Huh. Nearly every command I tried was buggy. It was frustrating.
Why not Unity or Unreal Engine?

Licencing. I like the idea, that I pay once and can sell my tools or programs. Unity back in 2014 was about 4500,- $ for the Pro without the Unity Logo or so with Android export. And Unity was also "crap" back than. And still is very slow und a mess of a GUI. I could use Blender Game Engine, if I wanted it complecated in the GUI
Unreal. Ui. I loved the UnrealED 2.0 back in 2003 and we made some levels from Unreal Tournament. But I guess, it was about 35000,- $ or so. And I don't know, what about the Android export and so on and creating the Assets would be expensive.

And also Unreal and Unity had no good 2D handling back than. It was a little bit funny, to see Unity3D implement "2D" later, to get also the GameMaker Studio customers.

So ...

Unity and Unreal Engine games can now run on the Nintendo Switch and also Game Maker Studio 2.0 games.
But they share all the same problem. You have to rewrite parts of the engine over time or handle things yourself, to get the most out of it.
It is easy to create a C64 looking game running on a i7 with about 16 GB RAM and a Geforce Titan X or so.

But it is complecated, to run a simple game on the OUYA or the Raspberry Pi. And also the compiling times are so high.

What does that mean?

I came to the conclusion, that the Engine does matter!

Which Engine do you want to use? Unity or Unreal? Oh! After some progress, you will change the engine for your game. Create tools and modify it. You can't use an Update anymore that easy.
So Unity or Unreal? It doesn't matter at all. That's why, we could use AppGameKit.

We will have to write some tools for us. But we could use them also in 5, 10 or 20 years.

AppGameKit has the nice bonus for me, that it supports JPEG and PNG. That it supports Spine and Spriter (but don't ask, which version, Skeleton Animations in AppGameKit are a little mess). And you can export to Android the easiest way from all Engines and Environments, I know. It is in comparism a steal or a gift or how you call it. It is nearly free, if I would count the money it costs over the years I could use it.
PureBasic e.g. has a LifeTime Update right. I bought it back in 2005. With AppGameKit 2.0 it is nearly the same, I guess.

And I can easy load FPSC Classic *.X files into my projects. And they are kind of OpenSource or so. So about 8 GBytes of data. Nearly 4000 Assets (some are dublicates)


So yeah. Let's write a TileSet Loader. Let's Write some tools.

I personaly would love to see more things done with Raspberry Pi and the OUYA and gaming. That is, where AppGameKit is very impressive in my opinion.


What I wanted to tell is, that we would have to write in any engine our tools. And writing a tool could be fun and you really understand, what it will do. I don't say, that we have to program Windows or Photoshop.
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Zigi
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 16:17 Edited at: 10th Sep 2018 16:19
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Also need to take in to account the fact the engines used in these 48 hour game jams do have a visual level editor and content management out of the box.
You only need to add the images and create the objects in the editor, write the code once and the code will apply to all instances of an object automatically. You can just add/edit/remove anything in the editor, however you want, as long the code is attached to an object, all instances of the object will apply the code.
Also, most game engine do also take care of complex math operations for you like move something toward a point, move something toward an angle, rotate something toward a point, toward angle, get distance between two points and angles, move an object around a point, around another object...etc. Also to setup physics in these engines also very simple. Just, say the object is a physics object and jobe done, the engine preconfigure the entire physics engine for you for all instances of the object.
You don't need to worry about all that, just drop the image in to the editor, in some engines you can even just drop the image in to the scene to create an object, write the code, drop the code on the object and job done. You don't need to worry about anything else.

Many of the games you shown very simple to do in engines like Unity, Godot, GameMaker, Construct, CFusion, GDevelop because those engines do take care of lot of the work for you and yes, I think I could do most of those games in 48 hour in these engines.
It is also possible in AppGameKit, if you have all the functions ready to take care of content management and complex math operations and you are using a visual level editor but hardly otherwise. You just can't beat visual game makers when it comes to speed.

Also need to mention when we are talking about 48 hour jam and a complete game in two days, most people literally do work on the games 48 hours without sleep and eat or doing any house work and spend any time with family. They lock them self in to a room and leave the room only when the game is done.

Also, many of these games are not made by a single person. The guy you linked just said he was doing everything art, sound, code but then he was constantly saying "we designed" "we made" "we decided". Even if he was doing everything in 1 person, others was there too to consult with about code and art and gameplay and that can help also a lot if you can share your idea, problem with someone who also has experience and get some ideas and thoughts from others. By the end, technically you made the game on your own, yet others also helped with ideas and thoughts.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 16:25 Edited at: 10th Sep 2018 16:34
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Xaby I agree with you on that. It is true that in anything have to write tools and higher level functionality to some degree and in some cases (I ran into this with Unity) you have to actually write lower level stuff because the canned higher level stuff locks you out from something you need. So that is crazy but very true... I spent more time writing lower level stuff in Unity than I ever did in writing higher level stuff. It was very inefficient for my game development.

And yes that is what I wish we had... just loads of apis for FX, behaviors, tile map work, 3D worlds etc. I started on several things along these lines including a 3D world editor. But I keep dropping back because I see where there is other stuff needed that should be done first. Like basic api for working with angles basic math stuff like min, max, sgn and then behaviors etc.

So that is where I am right now writing this stuff. I have a TileManager that has been improved over the course of several projects after I first wrote it. I use it each time and improve it as needed so yes at some point I want to make an easy 2D Tiled World System that loads and handles all of the backend side. Then ultimately there will be a new sprite behavior something like TiledCameraFollow that when assigned to a sprites manages the tiled display automagically.

And then one day... if I am still alive... do the same thing all over again for 3D. Ideally it will be a community effort so we can knock this stuff out in a timely manner.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
[Unity - Treasures of Ali-Gar] [My YouTube Videos] [Twitter]
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 16:31
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Very good points Zigi. And yes that particular developer says "we" to acknowledge all of the people who watched his live stream and what he does is let his paid patreons give ideas "I want a goat in there" etc they come up with crazy stuff to work in and he does it. And also as you said of course the viewers give suggestions to him in general that helps move things forward. That is valuable for sure.
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[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
[Unity - Treasures of Ali-Gar] [My YouTube Videos] [Twitter]
[AppGameKit BASIC Extended API]
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Xaby
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 16:44
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There is another thing ...

Okay, you do a game jam, maybe you finish a game in 48 hours. And these games maybe are played by people for about 10 min. or maybe 30 min. and they move on and after this weekend ... puh ...

Often code is written fast and messy, or not written, but build with the visual scripting tools. So it is later complecated to implement other stuff. And they have to re-do a lot of the work from these 48 hours.
Also they would have more guildlines and well written ideas, if they want to make the project bigger and let do other people some of the art work.

If you are alone, and your goald is to finish a game in two days and people play it for some minutes or so ... that could be done.

My goal would be more like three days but people would remember it in 10 or 20 years. Also support for games would be more important. Bugfixes over time, adding content, maybe adding multiplayer and so on.

I guess, we are thinking more about the use later and not so much about, how we could get attention in a live stream for a few minutes. And the next thing is ... maybe there are 1000 or more submissions. A lot of them is really not so good. And maybe there are 1000 really good games.
We are in a few years maybe about 8 000 000 000 people on earth.

so one out of 8 million does that or could do it. That is only one person in Tokio. Only ten people in Germany.

And how many game studios don't get there games ready after years in time
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Xaby
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 17:02
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And ...!

Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Super Mario Bros, Call of Duty, Tetris, Assassin's Creed ... maybe not Tetris and not Super Mario, but you get the point
They are not changing. Assassin's Creed from 2007 plays nearly like Assassin's Creed Origins from 2017. And that had it's roots in Prince of Persia (1989) some how. So you could say, Assassin's Creed Odyssee in 2018 was about 30 years in development.

And with fighting games it is the same. They change barely. You could play Mortal Kombat II (1993) and use Sub Zero and you can play Mortal Kombat X (2015), and the combinations nearly the same. The core mechanic is the fun of the game.

So what I am saying is. It is possible, to make any or some game in 2 days. But can it hold on years after that. Or is it only fun. You could do a board game also in two days. Some cardboard, scissors, draw a playfield, use colors ... no Engine needed. But the rulez? Is the game fun? Can you play it with friends? Do they like it and so on.
Game Design and also Software Design is about the logic and thinking twice. Not beeing the fastest.

If you want to play the game as a competition, I guess, you have to think also about a long run solution. (And that is, why the great game studios build there own engines)
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 10th Sep 2018 17:05 Edited at: 10th Sep 2018 18:39
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LOL true Xaby. BUT... if one of us made a game for a LD that placed high. Not even winning #1 spot but say it hit top 5 or top 10 in Overall. That would get covered by many YTers and websites which is a stepping stone for the developer themselves as well as a lot of free marketing for AppGameKit. Which thinking about it not sure why I think about that last point really other than I like AppGameKit and think it deserves more attention than it currently has.

My main focus & philosophy here is faster game dev is always better game dev. Reason is quite simple... if it takes 4 hours to complete a certain scope of game or certain amount of functionality period instead of taking 8 hours or more to achieve the same thing we have gained 4 hours of time that can be spent on adding more features or on presentation. Maybe focusing that time on the graphics and polish to make a significantly better looking game.

Scales out.... if we have foundation in place so a game that once took 5 months to complete now takes 2 to 3 months to complete then we can make the game 2 to 3 months worth bigger or 2 to 3 months worth more polished... by the same point in time. I think this is an ideal worth striving for. May never hit it but can certainly move closer toward it.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
[Unity - Treasures of Ali-Gar] [My YouTube Videos] [Twitter]
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 11th Sep 2018 01:47 Edited at: 11th Sep 2018 17:36
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Xaby you make a lot of good points. I think I should clarify that I am not saying making a game in 2 days should be the end all be all by any means. LOL! I look at it as just a metric of productivity and efficiency. In fact many successful Indie games came out of these weekend game jams. They got the core mechanic(s) done and completed a game in that time. Then got feedback and a good amount of coverage and decided to continue working on the game over the following weeks or even months before releasing the new full game as a paid Indie title.

Constraints such as time are very good for keeping a person focused and channeling creativity. Sometimes people have a very hard time getting anything done because they are "all over the place" and the scope grows and grows. When you have something like a game jam environment there are very concrete constraints in place to channel creativity into doing the best possible job within that tiny amount of time. All of the crazy complexity and huge scale is cut and the important bits can be focused on instead. And this gives a person a perfect way to get feedback on the base idea to find if it is even worth investing the effort & time to make the game on a larger scale.

Just wanted to mention that. My goal is not to get to the point where I am completing games in a weekend and selling them on Steam for $5 each. (maybe completing games in 1 month and selling them for $3 sure. lol) Anyway making tiny games as fast as possible is a way to measure efficiency and also it is more experience. The more games we make the better we become at making games.

And yes no matter what the size is of a given project of course I want to be able to complete it as quickly as I can. I see no reason to want to spend 6 months on a game if by using a different process (such as focusing on the inefficient parts first and solving them) I could complete the exact same game in 2 months. I'd prefer to use better processes to either make a much better game or to make 2 or 3 similar scale games in the same amount of time.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
[Unity - Treasures of Ali-Gar] [My YouTube Videos] [Twitter]
[AppGameKit BASIC Extended API]
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Bob Sherman
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Posted: 14th Sep 2018 23:17
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Most of these people are using better tools, like Unity, or Gamemaker 2. It's a lot faster than trying to code everything in AppGameKit 2. Now Godot 3.1 will be the next big thing. A lot of stuff is done for you with nodes, but it also gives you the flexibility with a easy language like Python to do whatever you want. I could never get into Unity, Im not a fan of C#. But I've been to a couple of game jams, and watched most people use Unity or Game maker 2. Personally I like the BASIC language but The Game Creators I was hoping would basically do what they did for DarkBaisc Pro and make it a multi-platform engine. I was a backer of the first AppGameKit and AppGameKit 2 and that was like 2012. The company makes alpha software like Visual Editor and charges way to much then abandons it or spend their time on other projects that are dumb. The company has pissed me off so many times. Im from the Darkbasic days. Then I found Godot and went over to that realm. I come back to check and see if The Game Creators buckle down and launch and good verson of Visual Editor with tile map support cause I paid $50 for that, or at least add Texture support for importing 3D models, so I can make my stages in Blender and easily load them in AGK2. But no, and most of the people on the forums are old and salty people that like to do everything the hard way. Godot has a Discord channel, and its fast and everyone is helpful. 100% free and the developers talk to the people. It has a built in Animation Editor, map editor, audio system, and does advanced 3D. Now a bunch of people are going to get bitter from this post, but the truth is a hard pill to swallow.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 15th Sep 2018 00:25 Edited at: 15th Sep 2018 02:51
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I'm glad you found an engine that works better for you Bob!

That's great and is very important. For me although I like to support the underdogs and didn't connect well with Unity, UE, etc. I like C# (have used it for 12 years now I just didn't connect with their visual environment way of doing things). I definitely have nothing against the people using Unity. Or using anything else for that matter. Heck at the other extreme some people are out there making games in pure assembly and part of me also find that appealing and in fact a year or so ago I made my first assembly program on a C64 since about 25 to 30 years ago.

There is no right or wrong to this stuff imo. All of these things are just tools for us to use. If a tool isn't working for your needs then we need to either ditch it and get one that will OR work on filling in the holes ourselves. And again neither of those options are the right way or the wrong way because it all depends on a person's goals. If a person just loves developing tools and tech and playing around and experimenting then they should do that. If a person wants to complete games as efficiently as possible then they should use the tools that work best for them to do that.

I get it completely and understand your decision. Me... I am kind of one of those folks of two minds. Half me is very focused on developing games... just getting stuff done as efficiently as possible. The other half of me loves to tinker and experiment and develop tools and tech. So that is basically what I am doing right now with two different projects I swap focus on back & forth. One is making a game and one is writing code and later tools to make AppGameKit an even better game dev environment than it is now.

And I may very well try something else to make games too. I have been looking at Construct briefly (because I often check out game jams and the games made and have noticed a lot of them are being made in C2 and C3) and it is the first GUI based dev tool that seems logical to me that I can connect with. And that is really saying something. Lol But odds are even if I use something else to make some games I will keep working on my other tech projects for AppGameKit as well. And I don't dislike AppGameKit by any means when I have been talking lately about getting these fundamental pieces in place it is just to make it that much better and accessible of a game development tool.

I think AppGameKit has a lot of value and does a lot of stuff right but there are just certain things that need to be solved. One of them is exactly as you said having a solid approach for 2D Tilemap world creation, loading, rendering, collision checking, etc and the other is having the same for 3D World creation, loading, rendering, etc. I have a process down for 2D Tilemaps and simple 3D worlds now using Tiled that works very well for me although it could be more efficient. I will get to these at some point unless someone else does first and actually I could have sworn I have seen several 2D and 3D editors being built around here that seemed nearly done but maybe none of them have ever been released or maybe they never got stickied and are now lost in the time of the forum posts. I don't know. I guess not or you'd think they would be widely known and used here. lol

I think there should be a new page somewhere right in the documentation or in these forums just for AppGameKit Tools just dedicated to this stuff. Building 2D worlds with tilemaps and the best way to use them in your AppGameKit games covering the various editor options and workflows as well as libraries created to do all of the basic stuff that is needed. And likewise Building 3D world maps and the best way to use them in your AppGameKit games covering the various editor options and workflows as well as libraries created to handle all of the basic stuff that is needed.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
[Unity - Treasures of Ali-Gar] [My YouTube Videos] [Twitter]
[AppGameKit BASIC Extended API]
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Phaelax
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Posted: 17th Sep 2018 21:18 Edited at: 17th Sep 2018 21:21
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Quote: "I had a school project back in the 90's, we had about half a year for the project. I wrote some file handling stuff, string handling and so on. The other pupils started right at the beginning with there idea. They wrote line by line and created a maze via DrawLineXY() commands. They needed half a year for there project.
I began about two weeks before the submission date with the project itself. At this time, I had written something like a graphics driver. A small drawing program for icons. And know the file handling well. At this weekend two weeks before I had to release the game, I tested an idea. I tested, if I could use a textfile with letters and for every letter, make an icon.
That was easy. It was back in DOS times with Turbo Pascal 7.0 I only could allocate 64kByte at once. But I wanted 640 x 480 Pixel and 256 colors at the same time. And I wanted animation. I took a picture of me with a Video camcorder VHS-C and with an Capture card in my PC, I got the pictures into my PC. Some work with Paint Shop Pro. And inspired by Mortal Kombat and Mario Bros.
That was 1999 / 2000. At the weekend I tested my theory. And in the two weeks after, I created levels. And draw some more icons. After school."


Reminds me of my final project in highschool, also in turbo pascal at about the same time as you. We had to make a program to store and retrieve records (an address book). It was all text-based, but that wasn't good enough for me. I found out how to utilize the mouse cursor in pascal and wrote a GUI for my address book. I ran out of time and turned in what I thought was an incomplete project but still got 110% due to all the extra things mine did. Back then, I spent most of class as more like a teacher's aid helping everyone else. Did all my pascal work from home on my own time. But back then, I also got a trojan installed in the school's lab and liked to torment other students. At that time, AV software wasn't so common!

Does anyone remember the Genesis 3D engine? It was the first engine I ever played around with. What really made it awesome at the time was the ability to choose at runtime if you wanted to use Glide or OGL. I don't think DX was all that popular yet.
Tiled TMX Importer V.2
XML Parser V.2
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"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 18th Sep 2018 02:41 Edited at: 18th Sep 2018 03:10
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LOL! Those were good days. My school system never even got a computer until I was in 9th or maybe 10th grade in high school. By that time I had already been programming for a few years on the TI-99 4/a and then C64.
There were lots of cool things back then and the years since for the time period but ultimately very basic stuff that took a lot of time & work compared to today. I mean I enjoyed it all writing compression algorithms and constantly optimizing code out of necessity.

Like I've said before I spent most of my time just building game engines, trying to duplicate one level or a half a level of commercial games and arcade games etc just as a personal challenge. Finally after many years of that and having moved on to the Amiga by this time I thought "I really should knock out some games. See how fast I can do it". AMOS and Blitz Basic made the programming much more efficient (compared to Assembly!).

So I knocked out these two in AMOS...


Apparently the person playing this doesn't realize you press the second firebutton to drop bombs on the target (one thing I always hated were games using only one button and I discovered I could read the second button on a 2-button joystick... why so few games did this back then is beyond me). That is what that beep beep beep alarm is for.... target coming up very soon. The game was a remake of Star Strike that I had enjoyed playing 15 years or so earlier on the Intellivision.


And this one in Blitz... when I actually thought about making a game dev company and even formed a small team at some point after this and switched over to C & Gamesmith but it never went anywhere. lol In fact, it was only a year later I got an IBM compatible as they were called and switched to C & Allegro.


And there should be one or two more but I cannot find them on YT so I guess nobody has stumbled upon them to make a video yet or maybe I never uploaded those to Aminet. I don't know now. That was literally 20+ years ago when I finally decided to actually complete some games instead of working on tech and continually improving programming and graphics and so forth. I never made any Game Won screen because I honestly thought nobody would ever beat it. Learned a lot about games and design since then. One of those being there are always going to be people who will be elite playing your game and much better than even you are at it despite you knowing everything about it.

It's good to look back I guess.
My Projects Most With Full Source...
[Attack of the Crows] [Christmas Command 2016]
[Simple Sprite Shaders Example] [Old School Style 3D FPS]
[Playable 2D Shmup Template] [2D Single Screen Platformer]
[FixSpriteToSprite System & Demo]
[Mutant Invaders 3D Shmup] [Unity - Atlantic Crisis]
[Unity - Treasures of Ali-Gar] [My YouTube Videos] [Twitter]
[AppGameKit BASIC Extended API]
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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 18th Sep 2018 14:00
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Gar, I made my first computer game in the 1960's on punch cards (5 Card Draw Poker), and it was not only text-based but the output device was a printer. Only a handful of people at the college had access to the mainframe's "monitor". I'm pushing 70 now, and if I were an energetic 51 year old in your shoes here is what I would be doing. I'd get back to the 3D world editor you are working on, explore VR, integrating speech recognition and speech synthesis, etc. and leave the 2D handheld game development as a relaxing occasional break. Further reducing programming time for the 2D could end up to be a matter of diminishing returns. Also, you can expect certain of your own game playing physical preferences to shift over the next two decades as part of the natural order of life. You might start to prefer larger visual output devices as farsightedness creeps along, and begin preferring using hands instead of index fingers. If you develop your skills horizontally instead of vertically, I think you will be happier as time marches on.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 18th Sep 2018 14:34 Edited at: 18th Sep 2018 14:43
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Very interesting Jeff. You started long ago indeed on the true beginnings of computers period instead of beginning of home computers. Cool stuff.

Well I have no interest in VR nor do I play mobile games. I've been nearsighted with glasses most of my life. Lol Even in my photo on profile here I am wearing glasses but as they are rimless they don't stand out nearly as much as normal glasses do which is why they don't show up well in the photo.

Anyway I appreciate the words of wisdom and they make a lot of sense. I don't do mobile dev or mobile gaming other than to test games for people here and occasionally a friend or two on the Unity forums.

My development & gaming machine is a 17" laptop and I have two sets of glasses. My normal everyday and my "work glasses" which are dark rimmed (to fit the part) and ranged in for the distance to the computer screen at work and my personal development laptop. Interesting thing about glasses many folks don't seem to realize is you can get then ranged to certain distance for specialization. My co-worker has a 3rd pair that allows him to get up very close to wires and circuits and see things crystal clear even read the super tiny print. I think they might have 20% magnification built-in too. Lol

I highly recommend a person get a pair of ranged glasses if the screen is blurry. I worked like that for a year or more and finally just checked into a solution about 6 months ago. Makes a huge difference.

I do like 3D and will make some more 3D games as time passes. And who knows one day I might experiment with vr. Just something that has never interested me. I enjoy playing 2D and 3D normal games on my laptop and consoles and always think of VR as just a gimmick.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 18th Sep 2018 15:42
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Wow, this is a very interesting thread. Is that Jeff Miller of Nintendo fame? Almost read it as Jeff Minter.

Anyway, interesting about glasses. I was told I needed vari-focals after decades of wearing just normal specs for stigma and I've never worn the vari-focals more than a handful of times. Now they seem more of a gimmick to me, more of a sales ploy. Of course, I could be wrong. Sorry to those who wear vari-focals.
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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 18th Sep 2018 17:06
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I can't recall any past relationship with Nintendo as far as my feeble memory recalls. In the early 1980's I managed some copyright infringement litigations on behalf of SEGA US regarding arcade video games, and testified in a suit between Namco and some other company involving Galaxian and Pacman.

Gar - I live in one of God's Waiting Rooms. Some of my elderly neighbors who started out nearsighted actually experienced an improvement in vision as they progressed into their 60's.

I actually don't wear glasses (yet). But it's nice that monitors have kept getting larger over the 35 or so years I've been buying them. If I were to use the first one I bought I would need to be closer to it and need reading glasses. The likelihood I will ever play a game on my phone is very small.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 18th Sep 2018 17:07 Edited at: 18th Sep 2018 17:11
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@Bored of the Rings LOL! As far as actual prescription glasses go I don't think those would be a gimmick. It is possible of course someone wanted to make some extra cash so they sold you something that you didn't need but I would hope not.

VR goggles... a completely different thing totally optional and interest based. I think if I was more into AAA games I would have more interest in such things. Like if I was a fan of all of these military FPS... I could see some of those players finding VR very interesting but for me I don't even find most of these AAA games interesting. They are clearly very well done high production value but also like a video I posted somewhere around here this modern AAA dev approach began around 15 or more years ago and has basically been rehashes same thing more audio including voice acting, more cut scenes, better graphics, same basic gameplay ever since.

That's why myself and a lot of people look to Indies for innovation and why many people like playing 2D pixel art games similar to ones from 30 years or so ago. A lot mistakenly call it nostalgia and miss the obvious reason... playing those games now is truly something different from what AAA has delivered in the past 15 to 20 years so in this way a retro style game is "fresh" and unique in comparison. Not so much now since Indies have flooded them out there but still to some degree anyway.
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Posted: 18th Sep 2018 17:59 Edited at: 18th Sep 2018 18:43
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Jeff I never even think about age. I don't know why really just never placed any importance on it. I hear friends, co-workers and strangers always making comments about them "getting older" "can't do the things they once did" etc. I've just never had that view and I guess maybe because I don't buy into that kind of thinking my life is different from the norm.

I am in much better condition physically and mentally now than I was in my 20s. I honestly view it like every passing year is another level gained so I guess I recognize it from that perspective for me personally same as I recognize someone doing woodworking for 40+ years will be much better at it than they were 30 years earlier. Or should be at least. Lol

I see all of these people my age and even 15 years younger barely alive and blaming it on their age when clearly they are doing it themselves. Their lifestyles, how they eat, the way they sit watching tv for hours on end barely moving. Basically things I used to do too. That is what makes people "slow down" and "feel old". If they walked and ran and laughed and loved and lived more their lives would be very different.

I expect I will still be doing game dev til I am dead except that 10 years from now I will be better at it than I am now and so forth. Always gaining experience always improving until death comes one day. Always thought once I retire and finally have a lot more free time I'd get back into C64 and. Amiga game dev again. But then again I also would like to go Indie a few years before I retire and build up a little business that I work on after retirement for extra income and enjoyment too.

Anyway are you working on a game project now? Sorry if I misunderstood not sure what "God's Waiting Room" is I've heard that used a lot to describe Florida and other places here in the USA where people move after they retire.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 18th Sep 2018 20:27
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Quote: " I was told I needed vari-focals after decades of wearing just normal specs for stigma"


I had lasik done about 18 months ago. Didn't know I had a astigmatism until after the surgery, I just thought all lights were meant to have a halo around them. But the lasik surgery was able to correct that and now I have 20/10 vision!
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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 19th Sep 2018 01:11
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Gar, yes, "God's Waiting Rooms" are private senior residential developments. Mine is quite large, over 2400 homes. Lot's of tall trees and 7 lakes, but relatively flat terrain is a common characteristic. So what am I working on now? Studying some very good terrain projects posted on this forum to work on some challenging and beautiful journeys. With an arthritic back my days of hiking steep mountainous slopes in the real world are behind me, but in a virtual world they are ahead of me.
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blink0k
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Posted: 19th Sep 2018 02:49
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What a fabulous approach to life Mr Miller. Kudos to you!
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 19th Sep 2018 03:24 Edited at: 19th Sep 2018 03:33
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Sounds awesome Jeff! I enjoy hiking too although I've never went on any big hiking trip just random hikes around my area. Anyway, with your experience you may be able to make a very interesting hiking simulator / survival type of game.

I was just digging online trying to find an old game I made in Blitz Basic back at the end of 2001. It was my first venture into shareware. I found it still listed on one of the download sites I submitted it to but no files or media.

But then I thought you know I bet I have this project still (I still have all of my Amiga work on hardshell floppies and even C64 work on the big floppies I think... who knows if they would load after all of this time but I hope to try that out one day). And sure enough I found it.

Unfortunately, due to the way Blitz creates screens I guess I am unable to make a video of it but I had built-in a screenshot (and actually a screenshot movie system) so I played it and took a few screenshots.
This was back when I was new to 3D modeling but still making 3D models for everything even though they were not so great combined with the scenes I made in a program called Bryce it came out okay. I sold some copies through a company called RegSoft but not many because I knew nothing about marketing at the time.

Kind of crazy in a way this was a 640x480 screen which at the time was probably the norm. It's only been in recent years I have switched over to ultra low res.
Looking at the source it is very clean and modular with libraries I had created that I had completely forgot about such as being able to shatter a sprite separating it into many chunks. It doesn't do it in real-time instead needs to process the image and build the various chunks before hand but still quite handy. Looking back seems silly I stopped using the language but after this experiment I spent about 7 to 8 years studying and practicing Internet marketing and moved on to C# & XNA for my game dev thinking Blitz was dead. In reality it wasn't too long ago someone released a popular Indie game made in Blitz.

There were 4 areas and a final boss area. I only played up to area 2 to get some snapshots.

Area 1


Area 2
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Xaby
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Posted: 24th Sep 2018 10:27 Edited at: 24th Sep 2018 10:28
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Even with Unity, it took about 4 days, to make an Astroid clone

Video from "Brackeys"


So you are not slow.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 24th Sep 2018 15:22 Edited at: 24th Sep 2018 20:23
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Looks like he spent a lot of time on the theme / polish for the warrior inside a soda bottle concept. Quite good I think from that angle. Knocking out a straightforward asteroid clone would have been much less effort required.

Still a nice 4-day asteroid clone is completely doable. Of course "4 days" is kind of meaningless is that 12 hours per day or 30 minutes per day. Obviously a MASSIVE difference between 48 hours and 2 hours. For me 4 days I could probably cram in 8 to 12 hours (2 to 3 hours each day) in the evenings. It would be super busy schedule but for a short term project be doable.
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CJB
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Posted: 26th Sep 2018 10:19
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Star Strike looks like something I've been playing around with lately:



It was going to be an entry for the little game jam that happened here a while back... that Three Words thing (never got it finished).
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 26th Sep 2018 14:43
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Looks very good CJB! The tunnel reminds me of the graphics style fubarpk used in his recent chopper game.
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Posted: 27th Sep 2018 01:47
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Quote: "Even more so considering many of these are the first games ever made by the person."


Don't be too surprised if it is more a case of 'finishing' one, instead of creating one. As some people said in the thread, a visual editor helps saving lots of time. Many games also have a very limited scope, doable in 48hrs. I haven't done many jams yet, but do know some bugs take me a while to fix as I'm a pretty chaotic coder. I'd probably be quite slow with AppGameKit really.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 27th Sep 2018 04:35 Edited at: 27th Sep 2018 04:36
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Bugs are definitely a time killer. I remember years back spending hours sometimes maybe a day or two tracking down a bug. I guess as a result of all of that I've made some patterns and kind of a methodical bug tracking process which helps a lot so the bugs don't happen often and when they do it is quite fast to locate and fix. Doesn't mean it can't and won't happen though that some time I might run into something that wastes a lot of my time.
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PHeMoX
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Posted: 27th Sep 2018 12:44
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Quote: "Some of these game dev frameworks/engines make it dead simple... like anything & everything they want to do is built in. They want a scaling bouncing FX on the title words two clicks done. Lol I can't possibly code it that fast."


I think 'built in' is a bit of a misnomer, but when it is supported to edit properties of previously set up variables from within a visual editor it will always be 50 times faster for sure. I love using AppGameKit, but I am wasting lots of time having to run my program each time to see a change, check a single value matches the level design and so on. In Unity or some other engines you drag entities or objects into place, snap to grid in a 3d world editor and done. There's no way I could ever be that fast in AGK. I suppose random level generation using mostly just math itself is the only way getting closer to such a level of production.

I am not sure how many of you use Guru to create and import 3D worlds or even if it is feature complete enough to compete with something like Unity, but in my opinion it would be nice if AppGameKit had a world editor built in of sorts. Alternatively we would have to write our own world editors first, before productivity would increase a lot.

I'm also fairly sure Unity now allows loading Blender, Photoshop and so on from within the editor, updating stuff basically real time. Another huge time saver there.

It's unfortunate I don't really like Unity that much.
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Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2018 14:49
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Totally agree with PHeMoX and right there he answered why they can be that fast and also why DarkBASIC didnt make it and AppGameKit grouth stagnaited.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2018 16:02 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2018 17:52
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I agree with that. Like I said before in this day things such as world building, loading and easily working with that world data is expected. It's seen as just a fundamental thing reason being because... well... it is a fundamental requirement common across a large variety of games.

Basically I think AppGameKit only needs a few things to take a major leap forward...

Easy & Fast Level / World Designer for 2D and 3D. Including full support for easily working with the data produced by these tools. And although dedicated tools would be a good thing they don't even need to be created from scratch. Tiled is a very popular completely free 2D Map Editor that I use. What is missing is a straightforward way to load and parse all of this data, work with the data (collision handlng, animate tiles, update tile cells such as remove, replace, define trigger zones and one function rendering of the current tile map screen view.

And do the same for 3D world editor and related api system. That is another key point here the api functionality should be built-in and not a 3rd party set of functions written in BASIC. Instead solid highly optimized set of functions built in the api with a new documentation section for each. Like CreateTileMap, LoadTileMap, RenderTileMapView, etc. And same for 3D world editor data.

Just having those ^^^ would be a MASSIVE improvement. And should be either included with AppGameKit when purchased or offered as a very low cost add-on not offered as separate high dollar purchases.

An visual GUI designer allowing developers to easily & quickly layout a custom GUI (as in using custom graphics although it should come with a default as well) with labels, buttons, sliders, input boxes, combo drop down boxes, radio buttons, check boxes, etc. AND a set of functions in the api for easily displaying and interacting with the GUI.

Finally all of the very basic stuff such as functions for working with angles, min, max, sgn, etc built it.

Then after this basic stuff focus on adding a set of shaders out of the box for both sprites and 3D objects.

Then focus on adding more powerful stuff such as the sprite behaviors system I am working on.

It is really not that much overall considering the massive increase in appeal & productivity these would bring. IMO. And this stuff is all just basic expected stuff for 2018. It is not going beyond the norm. It is getting to the norm.

I mentioned these things should be built-in or very low cost (like < $10) because people already paid for AppGameKit. Another way to go would be to significantly reduce the price of AppGameKit ($20 or less) and then charge say $12 to $20 for each of these add-ons which is a lot closer to the model used by the other game engines out there. Trying to sell everything at a fairly high price is not being done successfully by any other as far as I know.
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PHeMoX
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Posted: 4th Oct 2018 22:44
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Quote: " Trying to sell everything at a fairly high price is not being done successfully by any other as far as I know."


Yeah, well it is mostly that AGK2 also competes with a few engines that are effectively free until games are sold and / or significant amounts of money are made. It may be true that getting the Unity Pro license to get rid of the Unity logo on launch is important to some, but you see more and more fairly great games showing the engine used anyway. So I would definitely agree asking too much money is going to be an issue, regardless of whether something is worth the money for what you get.

Quote: "Then after this basic stuff focus on adding a set of shaders out of the box for both sprites and 3D objects."


Yeah I would agree. I don't think making a visual level editor style addition to AGK2 is a small task though. But I do think it would push the engine as a whole forward quite a lot. It would probably make it even more interesting to beginners too.
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