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AppGameKit Classic Chat / How do I get the Material from the FBX or GLTF / GLB or OBJ+Mtl or DAE?

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Xaby
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2018 22:27
Hello, I wanted to use these objects and build a little editor, so we can use it later for scenes,



But I didn't get the Material data to load.
https://www.kenney.nl/assets/furniture-kit

Kenny provides a great library of 3D models with the CC0 licence, so we could use them as a base for some new tutorials and or examples. 3D platformer, car racing, fps, 3rd person ...

So there is not something like set "MeshColor" and I also don't know, if that are meshes.
I found this article, but it's some years old and it seems to be a lot for the conversion from Material to texture.
https://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/2014/07/16/Baking-Blender-materials-to-texture-to-make-them-usable-in-a-game-engine.aspx

Any ideas?
blink0k
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2018 23:28 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2018 23:29
If you use the .obj format it is in plain ascii text so you can read it with notepad.
You can read through it and separate out the groups as individual .obj files then load them and apply the color and use FixObjectToObject() to put them back together
Xaby
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2018 00:13
So, what I am looking for, to get the "mesh"? And how do I get a color-value from the *.mtl?

I guess, it is to much work, to do every object by hand. And on the Kenny-side are much more objects.

blink0k
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2018 02:11 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2018 06:25
Model splitter (Not a very appropriate name now)
The attached project will take Kenny .obj and .mtl files as input and produce a model.obj and model.png file in a given directory in your "Documents" directory on windows (or equivalent on mac)

It is very rough and ready so i'm not sure it will cope with EVERY situation and Kenny models are notoriously messy
Right now you specify the name of the model in the program (Line 117). I'm sure you could change it so it does a bulk convert

Things i know aren't right
1. The texture file just adds colours in a ribbon when it should make them a square
2. It should really bulk process the library and create a single .png rather than one for each model

Anyway
Hope it helps

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Xaby
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2018 17:12
One question, if you say " ... and Kenny models are notoriously messy"
Do you know, "better" models, to begin with? Have a base. I first tried the FPSC Classic OpenSource models, but at the end, I would have to select every model by hand, and re-texture it, because they are also not quite in the same quality level.

Maybe at the end, we would have to do a complete new set of models. I am still "waiting" for the SaveObject() command.

And a very big thank you, the ModelSplitter looks great. I guess, I also have to scale it to "FPSC Classic size", to be able to combine the two types of models and also the characters.
puzzler2018
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2018 17:14
Once i get my head back into mesh memblock work - SaveObject is one of my things to do (for saving OBJ files only though)

blink0k
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Posted: 4th Dec 2018 01:10 Edited at: 4th Dec 2018 01:12
Quote: "Do you know, "better" models, to begin with? Have a base. I first tried the FPSC Classic OpenSource models, but at the end, I would have to select every model by hand, and re-texture it, because they are also not quite in the same quality leve"

Kenny models are ok. They are very standardized and most of all the right price! It's just that sometimes, not always, the meshes are a little untidy.
For example: If you look at the bathroomCabinet.obj model there are two meshes (exactly the same and in exactly the same position) for the cabinet frame. Also sometimes the normals aren't great
If you have a 3D proggy then i guess those things can be tidied up when you run into them

Quote: " I also have to scale it to "FPSC Classic size", to be able to combine the two types of models and also the characters."


if you change line 461 in main.agc from
WriteLine(file, "v "+str(vert[i].x)+" "+str(vert[i].y)+" "+str((vert[i].z)))

To
WriteLine(file, "v "+str(vert[i].x * SCALE)+" "+str(vert[i].y * SCALE)+" "+str((vert[i].z * SCALE)))
Where SCALE is a float equal to the scale factor 2 = 2 times larger, 10 = ten times larger
Although i haven't tested it i'm pretty sure it will work. Let me know if it doesn't

Quote: "SaveObject is one of my things to do (for saving OBJ files only though)"

This would be a priceless addition to AGK's 3D stuff
Xaby
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Posted: 4th Dec 2018 17:49
At "SaveObjects"

I converted the couch / sofa from Kenny and saved the "model" with Creating Object from MemBlock and "Creating File from MemBlock" and so on ...
I lost the "texture"-binding. So I used your OBJ-file, saved it with FragMotion to compressed *.X-file and opened it again and than "saved" it with ObjectFromMem...FileFromMem ...

The compressed *.X-file from FragMotion was about 5.3 kByte, the Mem-Dump was about 23 kByte. But if I compress the X-file to 7zip it is about 5 kByte and the MemDump is about 1.97 kByte.
So maybe, it could make sence, to have our own "model-format" to save some space, and don't need Zips or so.

But ~ 5 KByte for a low-poly model would be okay as well. But ~ 2 KByte would be even "better" and we would have to use a converter program.

so ~ 1500 models could be something like 3 MB. But with no animations. So maybe therefor we would need to have some low-poly-models with about 12 keyframes or so and could get something about ~ 60 kByte per animated character. So all "low-poly.models" could be together ~ 4 MB included the "material-textures". That would be less than the standard soldier model
puzzler2018
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Posted: 4th Dec 2018 17:52 Edited at: 4th Dec 2018 17:53
Cmpression... yikes.. but here is my theory

For OBJ files at least - they are readable between ASC 32 and 126 or something like, so using half of the full ASCII table 0-255

So what could do is merge two characters together, the first character uses the lower bit range and the 2nd vharacter is in the higher bit range of the full 8 bits, which will result of the new OBJ file been halved in size.

Just a thought

I did an encryption and decryption mechanism, so i might have a go at this one day
Xaby
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Posted: 4th Dec 2018 19:54 Edited at: 4th Dec 2018 20:27
I am thinking more like FP16 or FP8 instead of FP32. I don't know, maybe FP4 could be a thing.

The Low-Poly-Models have very hard edges. Maybe the could be created "on the fly".

Huffman could be also enough, the OBJ files are plain-text, so it don't have to be like 1,00000 for a value. That are about maybe 8 x 8 Bit instead of only half a Byte. So it could be compressed 16:1, I guess, without a loss in quality. so from ~ 80 kBytes to ~ 5 kBytes. I guess, that is, what the compressed X-files in FragMotion does. From plain string to digit, and only 16-Bit Integer,
but also in the OBJ file are a lot of "text" not needed for the model, but for the readability. So 16-Bit Integers would be also 2 Bytes. But maybe with adaptive-coordinates, that could be "compressed" to less than 8 Bit per digit.

first point X1, Y1, Z1 and the next point to that would be X1+A, Y1+B, Z1+C and also B, C are more like zero. and only A is changing. It could be also logarithmic. If something is more far away, that would be not so precice or accurate. But that would result maybe in some "lossy" compression.

7Zip gets to under 2 kByte. I guess, to have some primitves and only save the "meshes" for the primitives also could get very small files. That would be more like a MacroMedia Flash file, no Adobe Animate. A bunch of commands for the primitives with there parameters. Like: Command 1 would be a cube, and you could have that like: 1,X,Y,Z, Size and maybe every value is also only about 8 Bit. You could store a cube in 5 Bytes,
maybe with coloring or material you could have 8 Bytes. And lets say, your Sofa is made from cubes and other primitives, maybe build out of 20 primitives and every primitive needs about 16 bytes ... you could have your "complex" object created of 320 bytes or less with material.



the "MYM" is MyModel or the MemoryDump, and in the 7Zip is the compressed MemoryDump, the loungeSofaCorner.obj was created with the ModelSplitter and so the png-texture. And ...FromKenny.obj is the same model, but with the MTL used. The X-file was created with FragMotion and with the compression option active and rotation type: Quaternion.

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puzzler2018
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Posted: 4th Dec 2018 20:12
Yeah...

Can compress even more, cause an OBJ file consist of things like

v 19/29
v 19/29
v 19/29
v 19/29
vn 19/29
vn 19/29
vn 19/29
vn 19/29

f 20/20/20
f 20/20/20
f 20/20/20
f 20/20/20
f 20/20/20

Those numbers can be put into a single byte ignoring the /'s- so f 20/20/20, so this would be 9 bytes, compressed to be

f[byte1]byte2][byte3] // 4 bytes


Like new file format

V[byte1][byte2][byte3]etcetc
VN[byte1][byte2][byte1]etcetc
F[byte1][byte2][byte1]etcetc

Sorry if ivve totally confused you all,
Xaby
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Posted: 4th Dec 2018 20:35
I don't know so much about the MemBlock-Object as you, I guess. So the question would be, how to "compress" the MemBlock with the knowlege that it is an Object.

In PureBasic there was the possibility to compress or pack Memory. So like MemBlockToPackedMemBlock ... but in AppGameKit I only know the ZIP commands, but they need files.

So I would like to see something like MemBlockFromFile ... DePackFromMem ... to new MemBlock ... or maybe we have a compression, that would allow maybe ... 0008 --> 8888 Bits, so from 1 Byte to create a 32 Bit vaule, but with 4:1 compression and the decompression could be done "on-the-fly"

http://www.purearea.net/pb/english/manual_PB450/packer/index.html

I guess, the Packer part is open source. And also 7Zip is it. But writing a packer, would be a completly new project, I guess
puzzler2018
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Posted: 4th Dec 2018 20:43
Saving mesh memblocks as data is 100% pure binary Im imagine (like contents of a raw 7Zip) so will be difficult to compress that type of data - try compressing a 7Zip file two or three times - it will never get any smaller cause its 100% raw binary all way through the ASCII codes

Let me have a go with the SaveMeshMemblock stuff and see what i find

I would probably hang about for a SaveObject (to OBJ) file and then compress the OBJ file once ive cracked it.


Xaby
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 00:22
@puzzler, some kind of "SaveObject" to OBJ is in the source from blink0k in the ModelSplitter.rar from above
blink0k
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 02:20
I think saving from memblocks would be better;
1. More input model types
2. Saving combined meshes

I also think it's a bigger job than it appears to be on the surface
Xaby
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 04:16 Edited at: 5th Dec 2018 04:20
Here are some changes, I made to ModelSplitter for Batch-convertion.



And here are the models, 140 models from the "Kenny furniture-kit"

KennyOBJ.txt is the list of the object names without the ending. To create the list, I used PureBasic, because it is sometimes tricky, to do it in AGK.
And I also have to admit, array commands in AppGameKit are very strange. They are not like commands, so you don't find them in the command-help and they are not like setter and getter, wired. No "AddElement" or "ClearList", and "length" has no length() brackets, and it is not the size of the array ... puh.




the path$ has to be changed, it is absolute, it should work with the PureBasic-Demo
https://www.purebasic.com/download.php

Kenny_obj is about 10 MB when unpacked. So it is about 212 kByte. I guess, somehow, the textures could be combined into one texture, but maybe the size of the SubImage-Text-file would add more size than the seperate files. Also I guess, a lot of the models share the same texture, because of the same materials.

There is something, I don't really understand. The *.X compressed fragMotion models are some kind of black in the Open3D Model Viewer. And I guess, they are also darker in AppGameKit. Maybe something with the "base"-color and they would have to be set all to white or so.

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blink0k
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 04:21 Edited at: 5th Dec 2018 04:22
I am working on making a sort of product out of this at the moment. I will try to incorporate any changes you have made.
Let me know if there's anything you would like me to add too.

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Xaby
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 16:06
I am thinking of having later a grid-based editor, where we can use FPSC Classic Models and Kenny-Models.
At frist, the Kenny-Models seems to be more clear from the uniformity point of view.

There are these isometric "renders", we could also use for placing the models in a 2D-grid and have a 3D environment out of that. A little bit like the "Portal 2"-Editor.

I would use the "Zombie" or the "Specialist" as reference for the size of the models. So maybe that could be something, you could implement as well, that we can change the size of the model in your converter. (Oh, I see, you have the SCALE option)

I am not really sure, if the model-names from Kenny could colide with eachother, if we would have more than one pack.

Maybe one option could be an idea would be, to make maybe models from 1..100 and later from 101..200 or so, because it can take a while or to be able to "break" the convertion and restart from that point. I guess, therefor it would need a list in the first place and could save the position in the list and start from there.
But that would be all comfort

I am not quite sure, how we do it with the "center" of the models. But I guess, to center them, would be the best and I have to figure out, if the size or max-x, y, z and so on could provide an accurate size of the "grid"-size in the editor.


What I am thinking of is, to convert also the preview-pictures. Into one "texture" or picture, and select from them. So we abosultly need the names of the models in all convertions be the same for referencing.

Looks really nice your menu.



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Xaby
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 16:20
Another thing is, when I am trying to "compress" the "Zombie" with fragMotion, all looks fine also in Open3DModelView, but it is completly a mess in AppGameKit. So getting the characters "right" is another task I guess.
Maybe we have to look into things like "MakeHuman" or "VRoid Studio", or we find a way, to cut out some of the frames from the FPSC Classic model animations, to habe maybe only some keyframes and more casual animations.

Also the characters could be a completly new task, because of a "character" builder. At this moment, I would "build" the characters only on the simple texture, but the proportions of the character are evrytime the same. Also hair and a tie or something like that, would be only on the texture.

later it could be something like "The Sims" or little animation studio. But one thing after the other.
blink0k
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 19:16
Quote: "I am not really sure, if the model-names from Kenny could colide with eachother, if we would have more than one pack."

Good idea! I have input and output folders now

Quote: "I am not quite sure, how we do it with the "center" of the models. But I guess, to center them, would be the best and I have to figure out"

Yes this is already done. There is some code in there that is commented out that does it

Hopefully i'll have something done for today

I like the idea of the character models but i think that might be for another project. Lets see where we are after this next step
Xaby
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 21:09 Edited at: 5th Dec 2018 21:11
First I had to figured out, how to do it the easiest way, but I think, I will create masks for face, hands, shoes, shorts, and the rest of the body and maybe enable to position some other "sprites" over that and generate a new texture "onthefly" in memory.
Don't know yet, how big they could be and if it is the best way to do it. At the moment that are only PhotoShop layers, but how I build them, so it could be done in AppGameKit, I guess.



"Zombie"-Standard-model

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blink0k
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 22:05
That will be a super powerful for customizing characters!
puzzler2018
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 22:20
yeah - all about UVs

Ace isnt it
Xaby
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 22:49 Edited at: 5th Dec 2018 22:59
it is not perfect, but maybe we could do also some "speaking" animation with that.

Don't know, what the fastest way is, to combine textures, if all have to be the same size before, or if it could be done via X, Y coordinates and draw the Sprite onto another "Sprite" in memory.
AppGameKit works a little bit the way, I don't realy enjoy when it cames to drawing images onto images. Because we would have to change the Render-output and I don't know, if it is the fastest way.
Or if it would be better with somekind of Shader, but I would prefer to have a stable solution without Shaders, because on "microconsoles" and the Raspberry Pie maybe that does not work well.

How this would work, we already need about 20 MB+ in memory for the 5 textures 1024 x 1024 x 32 Bit, and we would need some more memory for the faces and textures to choose from.
Maybe we would have to scale it down or can not show the textures completly in full size before applying to the model itself.

Now I guess, we would have to implement something like that.
https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/213539

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blink0k
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Posted: 5th Dec 2018 23:26
Puzzledude is right. The UV's map a pixel to a texel on the faces of the models. What 3d proggy do you have?
blink0k
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 00:12
Attached is the App. Xaby you have a PM.
It uses MadBit's super useful FIleExplorer plugin
If it doesn't work out of the box you can install FileExplorer separately here (Download from first post)
How to install a plugin here

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Xaby
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 00:32
@blink0k

mostly I don't try UV-mapping, it is mostly a mess. I used the models from FPSC Classic and tried to change the textures on the right position in 2D with PhotoShop CS6.

I have Silo 2. FragMotion kind of. Blender 2.80, and some others. But I am more a 2D guy. Maybe we have to create a completly new model from the ground up. I don't know.
puzzler2018
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 00:36
You need UV data for objects - they are a nightmare to work out. but once got undertanding of them, then all will be perfect

Do you require a refresher course or are you ok with them
Xaby
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 09:03
Can we change the UV-coordinates in memory? Would it be possible, to have one face e.g. on the texture on one position and another face on another place and instead of changing pixel on the texture, we could change the UV on the model in memory ... or is that to complex and also slower?

I don't know, how to work with UV. I guess, we have to open the Zombie.x file in some 3D program and get the UV/x,y points
Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 09:48
changing UV's is easy, I did this with a program I did in DBPRo for FPSC levels. Should be straightforward in AGK.
Professional Programmer, languages: SAS, C++, SQL, PL-SQL, DBPro, Purebasic, JavaScript, others
puzzler2018
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 10:08
Bear with me - ill send some info on how UV's work after my days work
puzzler2018
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 19:27
Hi

So a little on UVs - you will see on the attatched 2 pictures that there are 4 coloured boxes.

The sprite sheet one is one that would use in an app, the other showing how the coordinates are constructered

So if we have a face with 2 triangles making up a sqaure and we like to have the Yellow texel

Then the UV map for that face would be


Triangle #1 U V
Point 1 - 0.5 , 0
Point 2 - 1 , 0
Point 3 - 0.5 , 0.5

Triangle #2 U V
Point 3 - 0.5 , 0.5
Point 2 - 1 , 0
Point 4 - 1 , 0.5


Hope this helps

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blink0k
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 22:06
if you think of it as a screen were top left is 0,0, and bottom right is 1,1 (Images can extend beyond the edges of the screen)

U=X and V=Y

You have to subtract the V(Y) value from 1 ( 1 - U ) because 3D people are a special kind masochist
Xaby
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 22:21 Edited at: 6th Dec 2018 22:49
(the basics are clear for me, saw UV-maps in some programs, but didn't tried to create some of my own)

The basics of UV are clear for me. But I guese, we would need it more the otherway arround, the triangles from the mesh to a 2d texture.
Maybe we both don't understand what the other wants to try to achieve.

The texture is already maped to the Zombie. The texels are in the model and referencing to x, y on the texture. But what's next? Do we change pixels in the texture? Or would we manipulate the texels of the model to get them to reference a new portion of the texture?
I could manipulate the pixels in the texture somehow, but I don't know, where to begin with, to change texel-> UV-x,y-References on a memblock maybe.

what would be the simplest and fastest way for lets say an animated texture in only some parts? Would I change the complete texture with SetObjectImage()? These textures could be some sub-image textures, but they would stll need much memory space. Or? Would we need to create meshes out of complete objects and change mesh-texture-images?
But than we would have more drawcalls than needed, because we would draw the complete model anyway.

So the UV-map is the unfolded reprensentation of the texture from a 3d model like 6 squares would be from a cube. The question is, if we change the faces textures from the cube or the referenced coordinates onto the texture, but don't change the pixels in the image?
puzzler2018
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 22:28
ill move on to my own individual projects


Only trying to help
Xaby
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 22:57
@puzzler2018,
maybe we could try something together, I didn't do much with manipulating mesh-data in memblocks. You are more an expert in this than me.
I saw, that you created complete models out of nothing. I am not able to do that.

I converted the Zombie.x from FPSC Classic with the free 7-day trial version of fragMotion into single frame obj. It seems, that the texture and UV are the same.

Maybe that could be a start for something.

I am a little bit lost here and you helped me a lot, I only wanted to make my idea a little bit more clear. I don't know, if my idea is stupid or genious. I realy don't know. I also don't know, what the fastest could be in AGK.

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puzzler2018
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 23:05
Thank you Xaby

I can help you indeed with constructing primatives together, ill send a few codes tomorrow on how we can build all those little furnitures together - its nearly midnight so will send a few examples tomorrow.
blink0k
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 23:07 Edited at: 6th Dec 2018 23:09
Quote: "I could manipulate the pixels in the texture somehow, but I don't know, where to begin with, to change texel-> UV-x,y-References on a memblock maybe."


You can change these values in the .obj file. They are tagged with lines beginning with vt. Puzzle dude is right. If you understand these values you can accurately create a custom character texture app.
You will know exactly where each pixel in the texture goes on the model

This is how one of kennys models looks after i convert it. I have taken each poly that has a particular color and arranged it UV's so they lie over the appropriate color in the texture.

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puzzler2018
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Posted: 6th Dec 2018 23:10
We will help and guide you through this ok???

puzzler2018
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Posted: 7th Dec 2018 13:04
I have loads free time now its weekend, so i will attempt to create all the models we see in the first post into combined Primative Objects, so can get an idea on how its done.
puzzler2018
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Posted: 7th Dec 2018 14:12
Here is a start of getting models built up



each object made will be stored in Models array and the InsertModel function is where the primatives building takes place on each, here is the first one

Shall crack on with a few more

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Xaby
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Posted: 7th Dec 2018 14:41
do you think, this could be "automated"? maybe like finding a nearest model or do want to do all by hand manualy? This would be very much work, I guess. Or we need some primitiv-combining-editor first.
puzzler2018
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Posted: 7th Dec 2018 14:48 Edited at: 7th Dec 2018 14:50
I have now built a transparent table



Shall crack on with a few more.

Hope these are helpful

EDIT - it will be much quicker for me to build manually - I dont mind
puzzler2018
User Banned
Posted: 7th Dec 2018 16:16
Done a few more for you - a few more tables and bed



Going to grab some food now
puzzler2018
User Banned
Posted: 7th Dec 2018 16:43 Edited at: 7th Dec 2018 18:56
Some stairs





Will work on some more over weekend
Xaby
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 17th Apr 2007
Location: Berlin
Posted: 8th Dec 2018 21:46 Edited at: 8th Dec 2018 21:47
I exported this map with Silo 2. So now it is easier to find the X, Y coordinates for some texture manipulation



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