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Why is AGKstudio not on a monthly subscription.
I ask this as i am aware of programming costs.

If each and everyone of us will buy a subscription for like 5 dollars per month its not too high... And the subscription also get you some assets packs and updates

So Agk is worth 99 dollars right?
99 * 1000 users = 99,000 one payment.

However
5 * 12 = 60* 1000 users = 60000. But that is just for the first year.
2nd 60*1000 and third is another.

A minimum one year subscription.

This way, TGC will alwayd collect 5000 dollars per month in case of 1000 valid users.

Now 12 * 5 = 60 dollars per year for an agk user is easier , everyone will earn more both tgc and users.

This post comes from years developing using TGC tools and i am aware of the difficulties of getting new users and maintaining a high pro product while releasing assets and plugins.

In the past years tgc thought of many ways to make profit we all saw it.

So why not a subscription based.
Easier on the wallet, much more profit after the second year. (I am here for about 8 to 9 years and altough i am looking at other engines i always come back here again and again.)
So 9 years = 60 * 9 = 540 dollars. Which is higher than what i spent in the tgc website.

Just a tought, that things could get bettet with a simple 5 dollars per month.
Like for 9 dollars you also get game guru.

Personally I would not pay a monthly subscription for anything. I prefer to own what I pay for even if it means I need to pay 3-5 times more for a commercial license or a studio license or anything like that for example.
The only way I would ever consider a monthly subscription for anything if I would get any cloud service with the subscription that I actually need anyway, for example in case of AGKS I could imagine an online service where TGC would host our game on a server including a home page, product page and multiplayer services for players to play online, database and even in-app purchase something similar to PlayerIO but integrated with AGKS Tier1. I could imagine something like that but renting the actual product and tools for the time of production only, not sure If I would ever consider anything like that unless it would be very expensive to buy and no other alternative exists.

Instead, I encourage TGC to make AGKS their only product and put everything they got in to it to make it stand out with both content and feature DLC's make it even replace GameGuru or somehow integrate the two.
I don't mind buying content and features in paid DLC's but monthly subscription for access only and the right to use it, I don't think I would be interested.

Taking off my TGC hat for the moment, so nothing from here should be taken as TGC's opinion.

You will find many people really hate subscription services and the fact that if they stop paying they don't own anything at the end of it. I recently unsubscribed from Adobe Creative Cloud for this exact reason, I have paid them thousands and have nothing to show for it now. I also avoid other services for this reason as well. This would actually more likely hurt sales, a better idea would be to have a smaller charge for larger updates once every few years, that way people can choose if they want to upgrade then, wait for offers or just keep using the old version. Also a $5 a month subscription including DLC would likely produce lower annual returns than the current model, especially with many like myself avoiding such business models.

True that, I do hate subs.
+1 what The Next said

TGC have used subscription models in past, such a model was touted as a possibity pre Dbpro even pre AppGameKit .. which is somewhat surprising given the shambles of DB developer network...

I see.
Now it makes me feel not to go for Adobe sub.
I think that what i'm trying to say is: TGC stayed on a very low profile which is opposite of what it delivers. Every year or two you release something new that costs us something. Honestly, I don't know if you are planning on growing if you ever did... for the past years, you remained a small staff company, like how many are there? 5?10?
Maybe what I should have said is
Business Idea
Please find something worth so I would give you 5$ per month

I am a developer of 15 years I never bought any assets for my games until about a month or two ago when I bought the giant assets pack, planning on shaders pack later on.
And suddenly I realized why my games looked so bad. Lack of really good content as a developer the code is fine it just looks like bahhh.
then I paid a monthly license to Shutterstock and built 2 websites and 2 apps.
Suddenly I realize everything is out there and mostly almost for free its not like its going to cost 100$ for a hero character but a 100$ for a huge pack of hero characters and then I found out there are plenty of sites that will give you the about (not the same)hero pack for 9$ per month, while even if your subscription is over you still get the have items you purchased just for that time you were subscribed now its all yours. so if take, for example, our beloved AppGameKit, the Agk studio and Agk classic would be yours after that year subscriptions. but if it will get updates you won't be able to get it and you will have to reOrder a one-year long subscription.
where if for example you'll do a 3 years sub, that means 2 things.
1. you get all the updates.
2. you pay less cause you made a full 3-year plan which is only like 4$ so you actually save 1$ * 12 * 3 = 48$


so let's talk Assets.
since last night I have about 2 GB of royalty-free assets which cost me 9$.

I would not mind paying 10 $ every month if the updates I get worth it.
and I think TGC can consider a certain game idea before every update. you give us royalty-free assets and we build a game that everything is set up for it, still, these are assets but just aimed right so you don't even have to think how you are going to build but just know.
with some functions as well... and a set of tweens maybe... anything...

Assets Assets Assets. that once your subscription is over, they are yours royalty free. Same as AppGameKit same As AGKS and I think also but haven't tried Game Guru. whatever.
Just to get this running to a point where everything grows, the Dev Team, The Users, and as Zigi offered! wow, a full set Server-based platform for a monthly subscription with updates and chained AppGameKit commands for it. then this subscription can go even further for 20$ you'll get a server that can handle 100000 connections at the same time. if TGC decides what to put on the DB and connects it drastically with AppGameKit studio that would be incredible. just Like Firebase, if you would open firebase for AGKS that would be also a good deal! (just no monthly sub)

I also saw on TGC lastest news update that they are looking for Freelancers (Already sent a msg to Rick, didn't answer though), I am ready and willing at any time to help you grow and to get paid
AGKS just made everything extremly easy. and that's only in the alpha (OMG) not all functions are there yet.

which like everyone I have million of suggestions I just don't want to flood, doing it right now :\ haha


so.


A subscription where everything you get from TGC is yours after payment for 1 dollar is over, you just have to make a deal that you buy a one-year subscription that could be as low as 5 dollars and as big as 50 dollars.
like

Sub for Updates only (in case you already have AGK)
Sub for Updates and Packs (it requires I don't know like 1 or 2 small - medium-large size packs per month where each pack is aimed towards something)
Sub for Updates and Packs and Functions ( same 1 or 2 packs, a set of about what? 20 or 30 functions per month that just works no questions asked)
Sub for Updates and Packs and Functions and Super Awesomeness extra VIP (Premium) (4 packs, 20 or 30 functions, and some extra stuff)

so each pack - images, sounds, background music.
or sub for updates and packs and audio & music.

it's like if you could would you turn your office into a bigger place with 5 more employees, like Artists or Ninja Coders...
now if I started the subscription at February I don't get the packs\functions\superAwesomness of January. but I will get until the next February and it all will be mine after the sub is over.

there are many sites where you can buy packs for 5$ - 500$ and if there weren't as many as I found (knowing there are millions more haven't look at Chinese sites . Japan sites, India sites... )
the actual gross of game development sites are the Assets, Textures, Bones, Shaders, Functions, Plugins, Editor Add-ons.

I am sorry for maybe sounded a bit harsh but I know you guys for 10 years I just do not get it how no one in Israel knows Agks, there are maybe 5 - 10 ppl who knows AppGameKit,all the work here in Israel for Game dev is in Unity but then again, Assets , well.. good Assets will make your game so incredible that you do not need a paycheck you need in-app purchases and some ads (on Ads, I want you all to consider if you got to a decent number of users, try to be your own Ad company, this means you will know the ones that you Advertise on your game and you can get as much money as you want without relying on the big Ad networks, this is easier then you believe I made an app for Android in Israel, it fell because of issues not relayed to the app itself but one partner who thought he is the sole owner but before it fell, we charged 25 $ from any company that wanted to advertise in our app.
this also means that the ads look incredible why? because you demand what kind of ads you want for YOUR App/Game. you are the Ad company, now, make money. (we had only like 100 users and we made a one year subscription for those 25$, obviously no one is paying us 25$ per month as the company fell, here its Games you really can't go wrong if someone likes your game, I also suggest not to gather any information on your users only if you have to, People don't really like even to connect with Facebook cause they are afraid that the app will post something or they will get updates and notifications on facebook that they don't even want)

I just realized how much power I have as a developer with AGKs and 10 dollars on a monthly basis.

Recently I worked in a game company, I realized I could build like 3 games per month. now with Agks and 10$, I can build like 4 unique games and 4 to 10 clones(same for 4 games, different themes as they are already under that 10$).

* I already got 2 painters in progress
* one game (Mini Math X)
*one scene test with AGKS , that probably is going to be a game eventually so its one more game in progress.
have plans for about 5 different unique games.
and just like a few hours ago a 2GB heroes, monsters, backgrounds, UI, with Spriter support (still did not buy spriter)
like.. if there will eventually be an Asset store for AppGameKit where you can sell your projects I could have started making a profit today. selling game templates.
this is why I also asked before for UnityImport/Export. a simple adventure game with some images and sounds could be sold from 10$ to 100$ or more.

Assets Assets Assets Assets.
I might be sound like an Idiot not purchasing some assets 15 years ago :\

I am very excited to understand where AppGameKit Studio is going.

Not having a subscription is yet another (of several) of AGK's unique and positive benefits among its feature set that gives it an advantage. It's something that should be promoted and displayed prominently as it helps the product stand apart from others. With a few more of the right pieces in place, it could quickly become an alternate at least or a replacement at best for certain 'industry standards' used by developers. Fundamental internal capabilities (complete control support, graphics options, broad cross-platform support, asset protection, etc) plus a one time pricing model, ease-of-use, and stability are all part of a formula that could gain massive traction in the current climate. Content can indeed be an important part of that and also beneficial as an additional revenue source. All AppGameKit itself would need though is to provide the same baseline features/options found in alternate systems while retaining what gives it an edge in other areas.

I hate subscription models with a passion! So glad TGC do not employ this kind of model.

In the mid 90's before the web exploded, there were BBS,s. I got hooked on a program that was shareware back then known as Paint Shop Pro v4. I continued to purchase upgrades through v9. In early 2000's they sold out to Corel who made the product grow considerably. They continue to make changes that rival Photo Shop, but I have basically stopped upgrading because they keep coming out with newer versions every few months with very few changes. They never really tell you what changed, just move some stuff around and redesign the scheme. All in all I have spent close to $1000 on various products Corel produces which in their own right are decent, but I get tired of receiving adds for the upgrades; It is like begging for money!

So I say NO to subscription based loyalty.. Customers come back when they are satisfied with what they are getting for their money. However, TGC does need to come up with new media packs that can earn you $$$$. Each pack should contain an idea or series. e.g. westerns, space, adventure, etc.. Frankly I find the giant asset packs to much to manage. I currently have at least 10 gig of media, most of which isn't sorted in any useable fashion. Create assets, keep them reasonably prices (5 to 20) depending on whether they are 2d or 3d. Create seperate AUDIO packs that match the themes.

Keep the editors Free from tyranny and make extra money on side projects.

I do wholly agree that AppGameKit Studio should be your last major change... at least until computers evolve to the next level..

Make it the easiest most stable software creation tool on the planet! Someday we shouldn't even have to write code at all to make programs.. Place an object and define everything it can and cannot do (then you basically have AI)..

Best regards to the whole team. I will always support the cause, just keep the good stuff coming!

It's an odd angle to look at it, not owning anything once you end the subsciption.

If the subscription is peanuts like Haliop mentioned then it's no different from subscribing to Netflix or Spotify where you have nothing once you end the subscription. Admittedly you get a lot more for your subscription with Netflix and Spotify than a company like TGC could ever offer.

That being said if the current model is working for TGC then stick with it. I wouldn't mind either way. I used to pay $20 or something for GameSalad. I think the only problem with subscriptions is that if they fail to deliver on promises or seem really slow in giving what people keep asking for then it's a lot easier to get annoyed and fed up with the company and move on.

Subscription is a model that dosnt work for every app. I dont think that this is going to work for them or that many users will switch to AGK.
Steam comments dosnt really make a good impresion of the app.
I would suggest they try yearly versions (if they can). AGK2020 = PAY , AGK2021 = PAY! .
If you live in a first world country and you are a grown man and cant afford 100$ a year for something you love, then you goddamn doing something wrong in your life.
its up to them to deside and to us if its worth our money, but a subscription will change peanuts,it would just hurt them more.
AGK isnt in the position to demand a montly fee so users can open their Super Advanced amazing god like software with a super 2d\3d level editor like GODOT.

my 2 cents

EDIT: I think with AGKS and the deeply integrated 2d level editor they are making huge steps as in future you can add less to agks and more to the editor and cash for that.
there are many ways to improve but at the end it all comes down to one thing: It must be worth. The competition is kicking ass, unity,unreal and GODOT as a free tool.
they have to let the notepad aside and make agk a real Game Making Studio to attract not only programmers and so multiply their sales.

when you guys say it not like unreal or unity or Godot (which I haven't heard about until now)
you are mistaken.
Actually, games never needed such an elaborate system to make them fun. Games are fun because the one who makes them uses his imagination and creativity.

my first game was in Pascal about 18 years ago, it looked bad it did not even have a decent GUI system or anything, it was a simple horse racing game where you bet on your horse and you can change the selection each run.
when I presented it to class everyone was so amazed even tough it was bullS*** , why did they like it? because it was fun.

although it would be excellent if we had all the tools and plugins that we want or need, AppGameKit not even AGKS but just AGKclassic gives you so much power it is unbelievable till this second and beyond how come people did not catch up with it.

so probably 2 or 3 main reasons.

1. NO TRIPLE A GAME HAS YET TO BE RELEASED WITH AppGameKit or even a fully grossing game or app that is known worldwide.
2. TGC DOES NOT ADVERTISE AS MUCH AS THEY SHOULD or I live in Israel and I do not get any advertises about it.
3. A READY TO GO ASSET STORE WITH EVERYTHING YOU NEED.

These are the trio problematics we have here.

and why do I say it?

1. if you look at Tessellation and Culling which Unity and Unreal posses quite nicely (Unreal's one is much better it is just a click of a button), and you say to yourself man I wish I had this on AppGameKit
A. you can try to build it yourself.
B. you can use other programs to remodel your model so you'll get like 5 exports with fake Tessellation or Culling. Like Unity developers do, they actually use Unreal to Export Culling to Unity...
C. Does your game have so much detail in it that you even need Tessellation??? (Remember working on an Algo for that is really cool... but no one promises that it will work good on Mobile and mostly not on all mobiles).
D. AppGameKit does give you the ability to render to image sometimes that's even better than the best Tessellation or Culling system out there, why? cause all you see is a rendered Image of the 3d Models you so badly want to improve performance you forget that a single plain could actually do the job quite nicely.
*This was just an example of what they have and AppGameKit doesn't.

2. The Assets Stores comes with everything you need to build any game you want even if you just want to copy another game, it will cost you like 20 $ but after 2 days work you can publish a very decent game and start making a bit of money or respect by the gaming community. (i was never up for "stealing" someone else ideas or games even if they are up for sale, with that said, the option of buying a complete game to study or do whatever you want with it is charming to me.)
*This is just another example of what they have and AppGameKit doesn't.

with this said.
I have already built, an Adventure game, A Pool Game, a 3D Space adventure. a Shape Matching Game for kids, about 5 painters, a game of math for kids, a game of the Iron Dome of Israel (not finished) (full 3d) , a Tower Defence game, 2 Polygon Fill Algorithm (totally created from scrap using AppGameKit abilities), 1 Patent for real-time file compression using AppGameKit 1.0 the older version...
and numerous small projects. even had a Weed Game which got avg of 5 downloads per day without any marketing, for 4 years straight. there was no day without a download. Google decided to remove 90 percent of my apps because of the use of AppGameKit 1.0 it had some security\policy\rating issues I did not address them in time so they removed everything but kept one alive.
One day I met an old friend of mine she just got back from the states and she came with a new boyfriend. so we are sitting and she is telling him you know Nadav build games show him the Wheel of Weed, so I do.. and he is like.. Omg you built this? we played it tons in the US. ppl are crazy about it...

Agk is super awesome, just needs better marketing.

so its all there...
we just need to figure out once and for all how do we get AGKs to a new horizon in game development worldwide.

I have actually started building a website using AppGameKit not nearly done as a lot of stuff are so so and not perfect (not AppGameKit but mine own Code... website should run differently from games and loading times are bad right now... like you can't make your customer wait too much... still figuring it out)

overall AppGameKit alone gave tons of possibilities. AGKS on the other hand... man this is alpha .51 and I already got like 2 games where 1 of them is about the be released. AGKS also helped me by so much on older projects.

It just feels like AppGameKit is unable to lift itself up not by the number of developers who use it... as I see it there always some new ppl who try it out. but I think because of the Trio Factor I presented earlier.


you know what just think, go into TGC website.
good.

now, go again, and daydream there was an Asset Store of 10000 items, Textures, Characters, Shaders, Functions, Includes, (now we can also expect ready Scene files), etc...

this is all said after years of experience here on the forum and with TGC products, honestly, I opened up this thread not to hear about no one want to subscribe .. but to offer different ideas of how to get AGKs to Sky High. cause if the developers amount will multiply even by 2, then we all will know TGC got X2 money. we can expect Updates because that's how the world works... you got the money now multiply it.

Please hurry up and open an Asset Store I think that is all that is missing that and a Triple-A Game.

Asset store
https://www.tgcstore.net/
Showcase
https://www.appgamekit.com/showcase

TGC learn to drive app has been a number one seller on App store

With my schedule it can sometimes be months before I am able to actively work on AppGameKit projects. But I also like to open it up and experiment on occasion for a few minutes when I have the chance. I couldn't justify a monthly subscription.

TGC did try the subscription model for the short-lived AppGameKit spin-off Freedom Engine. It didn't seem to be well received.

fubarpk

Very good point however i would have never hear about it unless TGC showed it here on the website...

Do you get my point?

A number one App in the app store... Then where are all the extra developers cause you know... Number 1 in the app store... It takes massive efforts to get to that point. Again i would nwver had heard about the driving app if it wasnt mentioned here.

Another site that you only know about if you live in the forums >.< https://www.tgcstore.net/

ha?!

I do not like monthly subscriptions too. Maybe they look cheaper to pay $10/Month instead to pay $100 at once. But with subscriptions you own nothing. There will be times which you will not have money so your software will stop working and even if you have money to pay for a subscriptions, there is a case to pay and not using it. For example monthly subscription to download new game assets. You have downloaded few assets and then you have lost in programming for a long time and you have lost your money because you downloaded nothing.
If the Application Game Kit will be software with subscription I will never purchased it. But now I am customer of The Game Creators for 15 years, I have purchased couple of copies of Dark Basic Pro and Classic, I have purchased FPS Creator Classic, Plus models ,plus books , plus assets, I was a backer for FPS Creator Reloaded, I have purchased Game Guru and I purchased and Both Application Game Kits Classic and Studio. Plus tutorial books and other stuff and DarkBasic Pro plugins and DLCs and other stuff I will not purchased them if The Game Creators would a subscription company.
So this Business Suggestion is not so good. The Game Creators current Business model is very nice and works.
I prefer to purchase today a new version of the Application Game Kit Studio and I will not have any problem if after 3 years a new game making tool will appear. Who knows maybe in the future The Game Creators will develop then next Dark Basic Studio Edition.
This is something which I am expecting to happen some time in the future. I will be very glad to purchase and this next Dark Basic Studio Edition.
I love The Game Creators very much and I like and their fantastic forums and their community.

Has it though?
Look, TGC has been in Business since 1999 when they first released Dark BASIC.
They were not only amongst the first to offer affordable and approachable Middleware for Independant / Bedroom / New Developers, but they also were by far the most Dominant in said field.
In fact they were the inspritation for Blitz BASIC, Pure BASIC and even the current Dominant Middleware., Unity 3D... unless people have forgotten that the original Developer was seeking to create a Dark BASIC Professional like Product for MacOS and was quite an active member in the Early 2000s.
Blender also started out as a competing Middleware Engine, although has since switched to focus on being a 3D Modelling / Rendering Application.

They've only recently (2.80 Beta) removed the Middleware Component.

Now I'm not saying this to blow smoke up TGCs backside... but rather ask the simple question.
Why isn't Dark BASIC (or AppGameKit as they chose to rename it) currently competing fiercing against Unity 3D?
Why did they need Kickstarter Campaigns (if they're doing "Fine") in order to cover the costs of Developing AGK., or more importantly why are they selling Pre-Order and Early Access ... sure at a Lower Price, but still that's just an enticement to convince people to Early Adopt... assuming that AppGameKit is actually doing as well as people assume it is.

< • >

Look, the biggest problem with a Point-of-Sale (with a Royalty Free License Agreement) Retail is...

Annual Releases, either require Large / Substantial Improvements., else most of the Consumer Base will simply pass on purchasing it.
Such a scenario results in having to support Multiple Annual SKU over a Longer Period; thus this actually limits you from making bigger changes / fixes least you break compatability and double the workload to support said Products.

2-3 Year Releases, mean that update MUST be Substantial / Fundimental., but also you're looking at loosing existing Consumers because you're not splitting your attention between maintaining your Old Product and Developing your New Product. Sure, having more than 1 Team helps with this; but conversely it also means you have to make that much more from each Release Cash Injection.

Now as a note, Games work well under Point-of-Sale because realistically outside of Continual Expanding Games (like MMOs or Persistant World Games) ... essentially a few months bug fixing, while most of the Development Team are on their Holidays between Projects; then you jump right into the Next Project, not really looking back.
On top of this... most Gamers aren't looking for "Major" Changes, but just New Stories or little Changes that are Cool / Interesting to shake up how their favourite game works, so you can for the most part keep churning out almost identical products and be fairly secure knowing you've got a product that WILL Sell just fine provides it's marketed well enough.

In both cases though., remember we're looking at whatever is made over 1-3 Years as "Injections" MUST then cover the costs of the next 1-3 Years.
And as noted... this doesn't really put the company in a position to specifically provide what Consumers Want (per se) as much as just be enticing enough to encourage them to Reinvest in the Latest Version.

I mean take the current AppGameKit Studio., a major selling point (on the Website) is better support for GLSL / SPIV-R Shaders... alright, but they're engineering on Vulkan (a whole new API) to do this.
Yet, what is stopping them from supporting the same thing in AppGameKit Classic?

Nothing. Supporting OpenGL 4.6 / OpenGL ES 3.3 / WebGL 2.0... provides complete access to said Shader Models.
Yet... instead the focus for AppGameKit remains on supporting OpenGL 3.0 / OpenGL ES 1.1 for "Platform Compatibility and Support"
Support for what exactly... OpenGL 4.3 / OpenGL ES 3.0 / WebGL 1.0 were all 2-3 years old by the time AppGameKit was released in 2014., and there was near universal support for them by said point.

So what was the purpose of supporting the targetting of devices of a version of the API that was released in 2005?
In many ways Dark BASIC Professional using DirectX 9.0c (albeit the TGC implementation doesn't take advantage of this) was strictly speaking MORE Modern and Feature Rich.
AGK as a result was in essence a step backwards... it just doesn't seem that way because OpenGL Support has remained relatively stable because it isn't OS Dependant like DirectX.

Now I'm not saying that it was a Deliberate / Conscious decision to hold back providing Modern Support until the switch to Vulkan... nor am I saying that the AppGameKit 3.0 Engine using Vulkan isn't sensible for Future Compatibility / Support.
Rather what I'm saying is... especially given how it's being used as a key selling point (New Graphics Fidelity Capabilities, despite AppGameKit 1.x / 2.x focus being more primarily on Showcasing it's 2D / Mobile Capabilities)., well it's a result of this need for Major Overhaul Update that will "Wow" people into purchasing the Next-Gen AGK; but is also in some ways the least difficult (thus fasted) way to do that.

I mean why Overhaul the BASIC Language and Interop VM to actually make it more Full Featured rather than a Stripped down Dark BASIC Professional., which would be quite time consuming and difficult; when you can just port OpenGL > Vulkan with very few headaches.
They have the bonus of Better Performance, some enhanced Functionality, the ability to showcase High-Quality Graphics ... looks appealing when in reality, well it's basically identical to AppGameKit v2.0
And again, things like the Editor / Debug UI Definitions is a nice feature... bringing back Project Media Management... etc. again these are nice features; but not really again that time consuming or difficult.

•

Look I'm not saying any of this just to sound overly negative.
It's just a pragmatic look at what's going on... and in fairness, of course this is something TGC want to do and focus on because it's what'll draw the necessary sales.

Still as I noted, consider ... how much of those New Features are ACTUALLY for those who'll be using it for Development Purposes, and how much is essentially just an attempt to gussy up AppGameKit v2.0 in order to get people to drop another £75 / €99 / €90?

That's the problem with the Point-of-Sale Model... the stress and pressure of getting those regular large cash injections just to keep a Studios Doors open., change how and what are prioritised; less for the benefit of making a BETTER or more CAPABLE Product., but rather as a means to Generate Short-Term Sales.
This isn't slight against TGC., but the Business Model itself.

•

With this said., I don't believe a Pure Subscription Model would be the correct change.
Instead it would make more sense to have a Tiered Subscription Model, along side Yearly Perpetual Licenses.

Honestly, I don't think the reason people want a Perpetual License over a Subscription has anything to do with "Not Owning the Software" ... it's a High-Horse Justification., and those who make such an argument know full well that it is.

Autodesk as a note currently provide their Products via Monthly / Yearly / Perpetual License.
I current have a 5 Seat Maya LT License... this costs me £235 / Year., but it is available for £32 / Month or I could just purchase the Current Release Perpetually (which also provides access to the last 3 Releases) for £1,995.

This works well for my Studio., just as our Multi-Seat Creative Cloud, Office, Visual Studio Professional Subscription does.
I actually quite like the ability to Add / Remove Users allowed to Sign-In and have access via said Subscriptions; be it someone "In-House" or a someone being Contracted that we want to use the same Toolchain, access the Team Developer Services, etc.

Of course I could always get a Perpetual License for Maya... Creative Cloud... etc. these Companies didn't suddenly stop producing them; but you know what they do, is they stop supporting them.
On top of this with a Perpetual License it becomes more difficult to provide access to Contracted Employees., so you kinda have to say "Well you need to have your OWN ability to work within our Toolchain"
Yet perhaps most importantly of all... is that well because Subscriptions can easily be discontinued whenever we chose to; well this provides us (as the consumers) A LOT of Power to Financially Hurt them should they not listen to Feature Requests / Updates.

There's also no longer pressure on them to hold off on features for Major Releases... instead, when something is ready or could be pushed out in Beta; they do so, because... well why not?
After all, what's the difference between additional subscriptions when the feature is releases Vs. waiting months for the Yearly Update?
Of course from the Consumer Perspective., it can SEEM like very little is actually happening from Year-to-Year ... but for those products you can download the previous yearly releases; well do so... actually notice just how much those small constant changes quickly add up to a MUCH better product.

And that's the power of a Subscription / Software-as-a-Service approach.
It frees Developers to focus on just making the Software BETTER... rather than "OMG... OMG... We're not going to make enough to Pay everyone! Quick throw in something Shiney and Enticing!"
We get the updates and improvements that ACTUALLY improve the Software; rather than what are little more than Technical Showcases that are rather useless in day-to-day usage.

The Software Suppliers also are capable of being much more Agile and Focused. As... you see a drop in Subscriptions; clearly whatever you WERE doing, yeah THAT ISN'T what people wanted and they're showing that they're unhappy about it. It allows you to then take that on-board and change directions before you've spend 6-12 months crafting something; honestly no one even asked for or wanted, but YOU thought it was a good idea at the Team Meeting where it was proposed.

I mean it's one thing to Plan what MIGHT be needed by your Consumer Base... it's another to actually see and react to how they're ACTUALLY using it.
Like if there's one thing I've learned over the past 2 Decades., it's that people have a habit of not using your Software or Playing your Games quite how you THOUGHT they would.
Thousands of Monkies... Thousands of Type-Writers... you can't plan for all of the possible outcomes.

So... don't. Just provide a Solid Foundation, then build based upon what and how people are using it; in that regards you might not be building an "On Paper" Checks all of the Important Boxes Product., but instead what you end up with is one that does cater exceptionally well to what people want / need. As noted, it keeps you focused on the small problems and solutions; as opposed to an epically complex gamble.

< • >

As I noted above... personally speaking I think there should be a Tiered Subscription along side a Perpetual License.
I'd suggest:

AGK Core • £Free ... but is restricted to a limited "Core" Command Set, no C++ Support, Limited to TGC Signed (Store) Extensions, all Built Applications have a TGC/AGK Watermark
AGK Developer • £5.99 / Month or £150 Perpetual License ... basically AGK's "Premium" Package, C++ Support, Supports Unsigned Extensions
AGK Studio • £19.99 / Month / 5 Seats (£9.99 / Additional 5 Seats or £19.99 / Additional 20 Seats) with £Quote Perpetual License ... similar to Standard, but Supports GitHub / Team Project Management / Chat / Annotations / etc. as well as Access to In-Development Builds. Possibly Console (Switch, Xbox, PlayStation) Support.

This to me would make the most sense.
As you need something more than the "Trial" (and branding it a Trial is a 'bad' idea) ... for people to get started and wet their appetite.
The "Base" Version, should essentially be something people Subscribe and forget about., because it's just not really much; while Studio showcases that you take Professional Development more seriously.
Yes... it's a considerably leap in investment., arguably for very "little" actual bonus aspects; but remember, image and branding is important... if you look like you're too "Cheap" then it'll just be assumed the product itself is cheap and cheerful... not very "Professional", so you're more pricing to give the impression of Prestiege.

People can be quite simple at times... the more expensive something is... the more they'll assume it's just "Better Quality"., regardless if you're more or less just paying for the slightly different logo.

Monthly subscriptions suxx as hell. Everyone hates it ! So The Games Creators do the right thing with a one time payment ! They make money with DLCs and books and with new customers.

Netflix, XBoxLive, PS Now, Spotify, GoogleDrive, even my Video Editor App (Kinemaster) is a monthly subscription and i hate it ! App Game Kit would be the first i would cancel the subscription . There are many good free and Open Source Game Engines out there to "play" with ! Godot Game Engine, GDevelop to name only 2 of them ! Even Closed Source Engines like Unreal is free !

No with all the respect. FOrget a monthly subscription ! This would be the dead of the Game Creators as a company !

Maybe not everyone...

Everyone may not hate it but it would be hard to find a consumer that thinks a subscription is a great idea. You pay money but never actually own anything.

The one time payment model is an advantage for AGKS and should be presented as such. If a move to a subscription model were required, then their product would then need to provide -everything- the competitors do for the same pricing model... plus some additional things that give it an edge (otherwise, there's little/no reason not to use the 'industry standard'). Instead, AGKS's pricing and simplicity should be touted and promoted for what it is that makes it unique.

Like I said above earlier, AGKS only needs a few additional attributes to bring it into the realm of a significant industry competitor (already being fantastic for the hobbyist/indie) and when combined with its pricing model, could become a significant factor in the marketplace because of its unique aspects (pricing included).

For those that want to support TGC beyond a one time price, there's nothing to stop you from doing so. Once your initial payment covers the months you think it should, send more to them monthly if you wish (maybe a Patreon/PayPal option would be handy). Or if such an option isn't available, simply buy another license every year or something to cover the relative costs you think should apply.

I actually think a monthly or yearly subscription is a great idea, because it keeps AGC flush with cash to actually go back and fix bugs for the entire lifetime of the product. It can't be cheap hiring programmers to work on game engines and after TGC gets its first influx of one-off purchasers, who's to say they won't go on to AGKS v.2 and abandon AGKS 1 because they need to support the employees? I'm not saying TGC *will* do that, but it must be difficult for them to juggle costs with charging people such a small one-off purchase amount. Even though I technically OWN this software now, I can't expect it to be supported 5 years down the road, whereas Unity and Unreal are continuously supported for much longer than that, because their companies always have influxes of cash.

By the way, along with a monthly subscription should be a free tier, like Unity and Unreal have. Maybe force a splash screen into the EXE ("Made with AppGameKit Studio") or something like that on the free tier, or take a cut of the royalties like Unreal. But then charge a nominal price like $30 a month for the Indie license that has no restrictions. I'll probably be hated for this opinion but I think it makes the most sense for a small team.

EDIT: BTW I was one of the monthly paying customers for TGC's Freedom Engine, but that one didn't seem to last, so who knows

Why?
See... this is what you have to ask yourself in terms of the Value of the Product you're purchasing / subscribing to.



Well, I don't... I find they're actually far better for Budgeting Purposes.
Still that aside., they make sense from a Business Perspective for TGC to have a Healthy and On-Going source of Revenue.

While on the surface Constant DLC / Asset Bundles / Education Resources might appear to be an awesome way of Post-Launch Support to keep a Revenue Stream... the reality is that DLC (of any description) is always going to be a Fraction of the Original Product Attachment Rate.
Yet it goes beyond this... Development of DLC / Assets / Education is not just an Additional Cost, which it has to make back on it's own merit but also within a Small Team., the time spent on such is taken away from Development / Updates of the Main Product; either resulting in Fewer / Smaller Updates and/or Lower Quality Updates.

In fact they might even take the stance of stripping intended Features for the Main Product and putting them into Expansion DLC, strictly for said Purposes of trying to Generate Revenue.
Subscriptions Models, shift focus away from such and back onto the Main Product... this means what would've been Charged Expansion DLC instead becomes a "Main Product Feature / Upgrade" that further increases the value of said Subscription and can be Developed with far less pressure to get it "Out-the-Door" for Revenue Purposes but rather from a "When it's Ready" perspective.



Sure... but then why pay a Point-of-Sale Fee for AppGameKit, when you could just use any of said Free and/or Open Source Engines?
Take very close notice of my Suggested Subscription Model (and I've said it a few times in a few different threads) ... and that is ALWAYS that there is a FREE "Core" Version of the Product Available.

At present AppGameKit doesn't have this.
It does have a Trial Version., but it's far too restrictive and you're not simply hitting Download and creating an Account on the Website.

< • >

Now as a sidenote... none of the "Competitor" Middleware use a Subscription Model (well Autodesk Stingray does and doesn't... but I'm not getting into that).
Instead what other Packages do is they essentially are Free of Charge., and instead earn their income via Licensing Agreements.

It was discussed (at length) in the past during the Dark BASIC Professional Era, about the potential of a Licensing Approach instead; but honestly the major point that AppGameKit is essentially a Royalty / License Free on anything you Create., is arguably one of the BIGGEST selling points and always has been.

The key problem is that it's initial Price is still arguably difficult., especially for areas such-as Eastern Europe.
I've had some quite lengthy discussions before with Eastern Europeans and Russians., about Pricing Models, because while £30 - 35 might seem "Good Value" Vs. the Industry Standard £50-60 ... the reality is for areas like Eastern Europe / Russia / South Africa / etc. well it would be like the price being £95-100 (comparitively speaking).
You can start to see WHY that might be a point-of-contention and segmenting the market.

Still there's also the fact that Products like AppGameKit are excellent resources for Children / Teenagers to begin to learn Programming / Application Development... as it's Simple Enough to be fairly "Pick-Up and Play" while being Powerful Enough to really provide a lot of potential, as they get better.
While, arguably the current price isn't that expensive... honestly, that's only because I'd argue that if TGC actually Priced it based on Inflation then it should cost £130 today., not £75.

And here's the thing., while sure comparitively Vs. the Indie Licenses for Unity 3D or Unreal Engine ... AppGameKit is an absolute steal, that also isn't a good thing from a Consumers perspective.

What do I mean?
Well look at it like this...
Samsung Galaxy S9 - £480
Apple iPhone XR - £499
LG G7 ThinQ - £320

Feature wise these are nearly identical... same is true for Quality, Performance, and Storage.
Yet... because the LG is SO MUCH Cheaper., most people simply write it off as the "Cheap" Alternative.
I'd wager heavily that if LG actually increased the price to say £399 or £449., it'd no longer be seen as the "Cheap" Alternative and instead "Good Value"

And why do I say this? Well because consider that the Samsung Galaxy before Samsung began to price similar to the iPhone was seen as the "Cheap Android Alternative to the iPhone"
Before you say "Well, alright but these are just Phones" ... I'm merely using these as an example that's more obvious.
The exact same is true when it comes to Games., and it's something I've time and time again been in heated arguments with other Developers about when they're crying over poor sales.

"I don't understand why my Game didn't sell... I was only charging £5-8 for it!!"
Sure... but for Consumers, 'Arcade' / 'Small' Games are £12 - 20., you go below £12, and people will overlook it because something THAT cheap means it's probably going to Play, Look, Run Badly.

See the key is not Underpricing yourself out of a Market anymore than Overpricing yourself.
I almost guarantee if AppGameKit Studio was priced where it should be... say £130 - £200., well all of a sudden alot of you saying "I hate Subscriptions... Never Buy if Subscription." ... that tune would change if the Subscription was say £4.99 - 7.99 / Month as an alternative.

And here's the thing., we approach the "Value" of a Subscription DIFFERENTLY than how we approach the Value Proposition of a One-Time Price.



Patreon and PayPal recently shot themselves in both feet in regards to Public Support... especially within the Independant Creator "Community"
Still aside from that... while sure, individuals could arguably just buy a new copy each year; to help support TGC ... wouldn't it be far better if TGC themselves were in a position to NOT need to restore to Kickstarters / Community Investment in order to work on New Products?
Wouldn't it be better if they were able to grow their Community / Userbase via a more Flexible Pricing Structure, that opens up the Software to a larger Audience in far more Territories?

I mean there's no reason that AppGameKit isn't the "Go To" Middleware for Mobile Development., as compared to Unity 3D ... it's Faster, More Memory Efficient, Smaller Packages, and frankly far easier to work with.
The Asian Market (China, Korea, Japan) is absolutely dominated by Mobile Games... the current One-Time Fee is a big investment, especially for Teams.
Hence why Unity 3D is much more commonplace.

Heck., look at what Allegorithmic do... they have a Dual System.
One-Time Purchase *OR* Subscription; which at the end of each Year, essentially results in Ownership of that Years Product... you of course can continue your Subscription, but should you chose to stop ... well you still have full access to the Previous Product(s).

Would that still be an objectionable approach?

@Raven -

While I mostly agree with you, Unity has a subscription model which I pay around $40 USD a month for. It's not required, but it gives me access to some advanced features and the ability to remove their splash logo. Well worth it IMHO.

Niether of which would be facilitated by a subscription model versus a one payment model. New products come with new prices (I'm on round 3 with the AppGameKit series, take what I've paid divided by as many months I've used the languages, and yup, I've paid a decent equivalent of a moderate monthly payment already).



Yes there is. I've commented on this in my previous posts on the subject. Until AppGameKit supplies the same level of controller support (and consistency), graphics capabilities, and cross-platform support 'out of the box', the others will have significant advantages that keep them in the industry standard position. A subscription model won't necessarily be successful in achieving that level of capability (a lot of other factors/considerations) nor would that necessarily be the objective TGC has.

Also, keep in mind that TGC's goal may not be to displace or replace those industry standards, but rather cater to a different audience and a different objective. They may also be entirely content with an industry-plus model where their development system is used in conjunction with others rather than exclusively separate. Such developers might want to use AppGameKit in their spare time and/or for side projects while other development systems are used for other projects. Nothing wrong with any of that so long as it meets TGC's goals and objectives.



Correct, it has a lot of advantages... single pricing being another one of them. What it lacks is what keeps it from being more of a competitor to the others that have advantages which helped put them in the standard position and also keep them there. If TGC wants AGKS to move into that realm more, then its fundamentals need expanding to provide the same (or better) capabilities out of the box in the areas it lacks in by comparison.



Not really. I wouldn't object to TGC offering the one time price (with perpetual updates for bugs/features considering the track record of the need for that) and a low cost monthly option. But you can effectively do that now voluntarily. Pay what you want when you want so long as you provide the minimum to acquire the product. $99 isn't going to keep a developer from making a game (especially considering all of the other costs) that paying >$100 a year every year will solve. If a studio can't afford a one time price like that in exchange for future savings that they can later invest in advertising or content, then it's probably not a good direction for them to go in the first place regardless of payment model.



And consider this point. You pay half the price of the entirety of AGKS every month for some features and removal of a splash logo, surely $99 once is within the budget of the audience of developers TGC are targeting. You may see value in $480 a year every year, but in terms of the demographics of AGKS, most probably would not see things the same way. I would still argue against taking away one of the biggest selling points and advantages AGKS has over others. There are other ways (discussed elsewhere) to make AppGameKit more competitive that does not require residual low monthly fee funding (that can't already be supplied by sufficient one time pricing).

First of all, thank you all for your answers (interesting!)

But one answer was special !

From SFSW


A Patreon site and/or a PayPal.me site would be a good thing IMO