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AppGameKit Studio Chat / Request for Feature Completion to TGC and Plans for AGK

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janbo
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Posted: 6th Jan 2021 16:12 Edited at: 10th Jan 2021 17:21
Hello everyone,

Over the years I have read about many new feature requests and a bunch of complains about the lack of commands that they expected to be build into AppGameKit Tier1.
Now this week I talked again with a bunch of members who seem to be frustrated about AGK's featurecompletness so to say.
While I'm trying to ignore completly new requests and focusing only on old features and commands that you'd expect to be build into AppGameKit, I can imagine it not being easy for them anyway with only 1-2 people working on it.
So this thread is to once and for all to collect all features and missing commands that you'd expect are in AGK.
May it be because every language out there has this command or completing the comand set that are already there and maybe even was a part of the kickstarter goals.
We know that they don't have the man power and financial setup like the studios you see the nice pictures and videos of all the time.
We also know they already completed many feature requests and there is the posibility for features in exchange for a payment.
Please try to keep all that in mind...

@TGC I'm also asking what can be done and what you need us do to to make it possible ?

So after that has been clarified, I'm calling for you to write your feature requests here.
Make it so you have a general command set or request name and try to write the commands name and what they do as detailed as possible if you have a certain concept of what they are,
so they dont need to and dont have any freedom of interpretation.
Maybe also write what you would pay for it or just if you'd pay something.
They have the last word ofc but this way they know exactly what we want to see.

I myself have a bunch of requests but i only mention one I'm asking for years:
Vector and Matrix calculations:


More to come from you:
Full .fbx support including accessing texture names and stages, meshes and bones
Full Spriter support
RecordSound() on all Devices
Pointers/Function Pointer
SaveObject() to several formats
Asset Encryption
HTML5 Browser Storage
smerf
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Posted: 6th Jan 2021 16:37 Edited at: 6th Jan 2021 18:52
I request two features "full" fbx support and point light shadows without light bleed.
100$
I've used many file formats I've tried multiple ways of creating them and exporting them and more than one command will usually fail that you run on a model like mesh name or text your name it doesn't seem to support most forms of hierarchy or texture names either. We need fbx support which is the standard or dae something that supports hierarchies texture names mesh names entities shading smoothing vertex colors. I've had great difficulty getting things to work I have found ways to do it with DOT x format but blender the indie mdl standard does not support.x anymore. Is it large set back for existing and new users. Also the inability to add shadows to an environment from point lights or light bleeding through walls make creating a decent 3d scene difficult.

Optional other features Id like
I believe many people were wanting cube mapping.
Tcp hole punch preamble.
Record sound.
Multiple cam support
An Api.
Quote: "TGC needs to update their form and add/ allow job and team requests. Boost the community. Game Jolt doesn't even offer anything except an API everybody publishes their games through them and it's massively successful because they built a community. If TGC built a community with all the things they offer It could be popular as hell they could have the financial support they need to produce anything they wanted."

Xaby
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Posted: 6th Jan 2021 18:22 Edited at: 6th Jan 2021 19:43
I looked recently into the Kickstarter of App Game Kit
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tgc/app-game-kit-v2?lang=de

TGC wrote: "
Auto Tweening

We'll add in an automatic tweening system to AGK. This means you can set a sprite moving in a direction and know it will arrive at it's destination exactly when you wanted it to. Currently this has to be handled by your own extra code.

Support for Spine

Spine is a very popular sprite animation tool that had their own funding via Kickstarter. It will be fully supported across our AppGameKit engine.
"


The features of that "Spine" TGC wants to fully support here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/esotericsoftware/spine?ref=live
has "Bounding boxes Rectangles attached to bones for easier hit detection."

That is still not here in AGK.

Also at the moment of the TGC AppGameKit 2 Kickstarter the Spine Kickstarter maybe didn't had mesh-deformation. Or how they (Esotericsoftware) call it: Free-Form-Deformation (FFD)
But it was announced in the second Kickstarter for Spine and delivered in November of 2013.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/esotericsoftware/spine-features?

So we are now 7 years later. And this feature of Spine is still not supported. Another quote is from https://www.appgamekit.com/news/post/appgamekit-studio-20200725-released, that
TGC wrote: "
2D Sprites & Spriter support

Added SetSpriteBlendModes to set the blend modes manually when using transparency mode 3
Fixed SetSpriteScissor causing the sprite to not draw if the scissor values were greater than the virtual resolution
Spriter image pivots can now be animated
Spriter animations now support negative scales
Spriter files no longer need to have the same bone structure across all their animations
Numerous other small fixes to improve Spriter support
Fixed a crash when running a Spriter animation that had a different number of keyframes per varying value
"


But I tried in the newest version "AppGameKit Studio 2020.11.12 " the example standard animations from Brashmonkey, the creators of Spriter,
and the "Coin-Flip" and several other animations from asset packs didn't work.

Spriter is out since 2012 / 2013
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/539087245/spriter

So for mobile what I really like to see since size is a thing, and it was a thing 7 years ago:
- Skeleton2D support with complete Spriter support, so also bought assets work
- Skeleton2D support with FFD / meshdeformation with complete Spine support, so bought assets could work or creating assets inhouse makes sense
- MODule (music) playback like S3M, MOD, IT (OpenModPlug could run on other devices as well, C++ lib is there and free)
- Texture Compression (could be done with BASIS Universal Texture Compression, it is a transcoder and supports all major formats, is smaller and faster than PNG / JPEG)

these are my wishes of 7 years now. All have to do with making file size smaller and being able to create larger visually more impressive complex games.
Better GUI support like imGUI for making our own tools would be nice, so we also could create tools to sell, or build our own level editors

most of the features are written in open source C++ and could be implemented easily. Some changes maybe could make some more work.
I have some workarounds and can make simple games with AGK. But with these features it would be much more easy, faster and would be a real competition against other engine packs or frameworks.

I am a Gold plegder, also for Game Guru and bought Game Guru MAX and several other things from TGC to support them.
I would also consider to pay some more 100,- $ to get these features.

With propper Spine support it would also attract artists. With MOD support it could be a thing for older musicans. And with texture compression we could load more faster and push 3D and animation.
And with the GUI thingly we could boost our community a lot.

I guess, we somehow would need to build an ecosystem around AppGameKit, so AppGameKit gets more attractive and gets more sales and more features.
MateiSoft
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Posted: 6th Jan 2021 18:50 Edited at: 7th Jan 2021 19:30
It makes sense for AGKS to have these kind of features that are mentioned here. For me, instead of using other engines, AppGameKit is the most satisfying to be creative through pure code.

I also have some requests (maybe I'll add more while I develop my project:

* Scaled bones agk (as others have requested)
* Being able to make change the color of object's meshes
* Object mesh alpha
www.alexmatei.com
blink0k
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Posted: 6th Jan 2021 20:46
I could not agree more with janbo's requests (Including mesh scaling). I support this 100%
gosukiwi
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Posted: 6th Jan 2021 22:58
I agree with everyone's requests. If I could add one thing, I think it would be adding some more power to the language. Just adding function pointers and default arguments for functions would make a big QoL improvement. Also allowing arrays and types to store values by reference would be nice.
Rich Dersheimer
AGK Developer
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Posted: 7th Jan 2021 01:54
I would like to see SaveObject() implemented.
SFSW
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Posted: 7th Jan 2021 01:56
Quote: "Record sound."


On that subject, which is probably near the top of my wishlist at the moment, I'd like to expand on that a bit to specify recording sound on its own thread with a tie to memblocks so that it can be used for things like VOIP and sound effects/recording management in audio apps. For example, a developer could record short 100ms clips of audio directly to a memblock, then feed that byte data out to packets for streaming over UDP and the receiver can put the data back into a memblock and then out to a sound index for playback. All through a separate dedicated thread so that it doesn't hinder overall game/app performance. Likewise, larger samples could be taken for analysis or altering within memblocks for audio apps. I provided a source code (C++) example about a year ago, which I hope might prove useful in an official implementation of 'RecordSound()' and its related commands.
Loktofeit
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Posted: 7th Jan 2021 02:54
Raising my hand for "RecordSound()", as well.

I'd like to request some of the things we had in DBPRo that I miss:

- A panel that handles a lot of the redundant template stuff (ex: title, screen type, window res)
- custom icon
- media compression/encryption
- standalone exe

janbo
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Posted: 7th Jan 2021 16:37 Edited at: 7th Jan 2021 16:43
Nice, SaveObject and RecordSound is exactly that kind of command I'm talking about.
And Pointers, Full Spine/Spriter support, Media Encryption and the Ability to get and set all infos of a model format are requested for a long time too.
RecordSound into Memblock for VOIP sounds verry usefull, do you want to reference your code here ? @SFSW
To implement all this will need them some time through....just saying
I talked to Rick and we give you guys a bit time to write here.
Im also thinking about creating a poll should I ?(hope TGC will)
blink0k
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Posted: 7th Jan 2021 22:30
I poll is a great idea
tarkusAB
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Posted: 8th Jan 2021 23:34
I know it's a longshot, but I'd like to see the ability to publish on game consoles.

The indie market has changed since AGK's initial release. All the big console manufacturers now support and encourage indies to self-publish on their platforms. The Switch in particular is an indie powerhouse. More and more game dev software supports console publishing every year.

It doesn't matter what extra commands and capabilities AppGameKit has (it's already quite powerful), seasoned devs and newbies alike are going to dismiss it up front because it lacks the ability to publish on consoles, full stop.

I say this because I have loved TGC programming products since DBC, and I don't want this community to shrink and the support to dissolve with it. There is a tremendous amount of game development talent out there, both young and old, but it's all flowing into and growing with other software. TGC should look at it as an investment to growing the community and business. Build console exporting, and then talented developers will come out of the weeds and use it to make worthwhile games. This will promote the software, and then new devs dreaming to be the next indie rockstar will at least consider AppGameKit alongside stuff like GameMaker etc.
Xaby
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Posted: 9th Jan 2021 18:58
What I also want to see is another integer value that can be attached to a Sprite.
- GetSpriteValue(SpriteID)

so with that it would be possible to test against Sprites and look into another array of a custom data-type what you want.
Otherwise you would need to cycle throuh all items of an array and look for the SpriteID.
We have no native hashmaps, from what I know.

Creating custom buttons and so on is possible, but hard to do without that. Also you could easily evolve a Sprite with other data like health and so on and have game objects.
You could create more complex games without the neat of many workarounds with that simple "value" integrated into a Sprite.
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 9th Jan 2021 20:30
Quote: "Otherwise you would need to cycle throuh all items of an array and look for the SpriteID."


use MyArray.find(SpriteID) on the array for direct access its much faster.
Zigi
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Posted: 9th Jan 2021 22:22 Edited at: 10th Jan 2021 13:21
I think I have submitted most feature requests on GitHub but to mention a few I am really would like to have:

1. Asset encryption
2. Support for SQLite and other databases to store complex data
3. Support for browser storage in HTML5
4. Some sort of 2D dynamic light solution cross platform
5. 2D pathfinding, I know users shared some attempts on the forums but I really want something officially included out of the box
6. OOP in Tier1 or OFFICIAL support on all platforms for a modern OOP language as Tier3, for example TypeScript, Swift or C#
7. GUI widgets like buttons, switches, sliders..etc for better App development
8. Since Studio compete in similar space to Godot, Cocos Creator, Defold...I have many-many-many more editor features to request that I have already posted on GitHub so I am not going to mention here.

As to how much I would pay. I would be happy to pay $100 annually or even royalty to TGC to secure future development and make a transparent roadmap.
Seriously I have requested the above features since AppGameKit 2 was announced!!! I don't have time for HOPES any more I need CERTAINTY and CLARITY and I need a clear roadmap, plans, deadline what is coming and when and I understand it is difficult to provide for a one time fee so I am happy to pay a subscription..

When Studio was released TGC told they are looking in to the direction of subscription model and I was and I am 100% support this as long it means we are getting value for our money, the features we need much-much faster and more transparent roadmap.
But, for whatever reason TGC did not go down on this road and even now in 2021 it seem TGC is focusing their resources on GameGuru Max, Lee have already announced they put more resources in to GGMax in 2021 and hire even more developers to work on GGMax while AGKS is waiting for GGMax to finish and free up developers??

Honestly I don't have time for this. I hope TGC is listening because I am dead serious when I say this:
If TGC announces Studio 2 for $40 to pre-orders with a few new features only (even if it big like a 3D level editor or support for UWP or whatever) and no royalty license or subscription announced to secure future development but the good old one time fee of $40 only, I'm not going to be bothered to buy it. I'm done with AppGameKit and all TGC products.

Explanation of "subscription":
When I say subscription I don't mean to lose access completely once we stop paying subscription, only that we no longer get the next update with new features.

If TGC insist to offer a one time fee option to provide free bug fixes, there could be 2 versions, the base product that get only bug fixes, no new features and cost a one time fee only. Could call this version AppGameKit Core maybe, It is a one time fee to get bug fixes and updates to "Core" features only but no new features beyond what was offered at the time of purchase. Core feature could be considered for example the filesystem API, renderer, audio library, networking, IDE that would be constantly updated to latest version but things like Level editor, 2D lights, Pathfinding, Tier3(TypeScript), SQLite...would not be included in Core.
And the second version could be Studio 2 that includes everything Core has to offer and getting all the latest features and updates for a subscription fee. Once we stop paying the subscription fee, we lose access to Studio 2 but we get to keep Core forever.

If TGC don't insist to offer a one time fee option then we could simply stop getting updates once we stop paying the subscription fee but we get to keep the last version we had access to forever we just simply stop getting updates.
In order for a subscription model to work, it would be important to get frequent updates every 3 months at minimum and at least 1 significant new feature or improvement every 6-12 months that is available to subscribers only. And a public, transparent roadmap to know what is coming in the next 3-6 months and what is planned to come long term in the next 12 months is a must have in my opinion to keep people subscribed, focused and dedicated to keep paying the subscription fee to support the development.
janbo
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Posted: 10th Jan 2021 17:38
I'd not include SQL or GUI and some other stuff cause there are great librarys made by the comunity by now and SQL seems a bit overpowered for a game, for me atleast
You can still just save stuff into files or make a php request that inserts stuff into SQL if you need an online Database.
On the other hand they are requested for a long time so I'm not sure...
And regarding the 2D Lighting: to be honest I already have a bunch of Sprite shaders that are waiting for the SetSpriteShaderConstantByName() command to form a 2D Shader Pack
But it's fine with me if they decide to make some game shaders...
Hope Rick shines in Monday (I wrote him)
Xaby
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Posted: 10th Jan 2021 19:31
I am looking at this https://www.gamedevmarket.net/asset/2d-animated-character-lisa/
And I am not thinking: oh, is it expensive or does it fit my game or something, but thinking: meh, it will not play in AppGameKit ...
And the engine should not hold back creative ideas or making games the easy way.

The other thing is, that SQLite is a great thing for game data and other applications.

Not all things have to be nativly, but things like GUI are also in other languages and known engines.
I also don't know, what the target is for AGK. Are we limited to simple games? Or should we also be able to make tools?

I also don't understand, why we somehow could import *.X files and have 3D functions in AppGameKit, but if you want to buy stuff from the "Game Guru store" it is so frustrating, that I am often endup using the Unity Store.
I see, that there are things that have to be done on all places. I also see often in asset market places / stores, that theses assets fit: Unreal, Unity, Game Maker Studio, Cocos, LibGDX, Mono ... but mostly not that App Game Kit is listed there.
App Game Kit does something wrong with its marketing.


Zigi
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Posted: 10th Jan 2021 21:57 Edited at: 10th Jan 2021 22:20
SQLite:
To query large amount of data SQLite could provide a much better performance than a text file because SQLite was designed from the ground up to query large amount of data while a text file is just that, when you read it you query the data line by line and in general it is just better to organize large amount of data like dialogs and choices, receipts for crafting items in an RPG for example you can even store images in the database and protection also built-in to SQLite to avoid people messing with the data.

2D lighting:
I tried most community efforts and the performance was not so great but I know for a fact my devices can handle dynamic 2D lights with other engines so.... Something official would be nice.

GUI;
the ones the community shared is missing certain features, I would love to see ImGUI exposed to us for example so we can use it. It could be useful in more complex GUI heavy games with politics, trading, crafting for example and also apps. I'v been using AppGameKit to create some simple data management and visualisation apps and for such things also would be nice a more serious GUI lib. I'm not saying it should be priority in a game focused tool but would not be completely useless.

Game Guru Store and .X:
AGK and GameGuru is two very different engines now and so far I don't see any intention to bring them closer unless TGC would consider to drop their in-house Vulkan engine and replace it with the same open-source engine GGMax currently using. I truly believe it would be the most logical choice but somehow TGC not able to make the right choices even if they do the right choice it is usually too late...

Popularity:
I think AppGameKit is the victim of a series of wrong choices?
It was born as a 2D only, mobile focused tool in a space that was dominated by MonoGame, Cocos2D, LibGDX and Corona but TGC did not pay attention to why those tools were more popular, instead they did focus on motivating the DBP users to switch to AppGameKit by trying to please them and bring 3D features to AGK.

So we have V2 released with the help of the community and 3D and terrain support because this is what most DBP users was missing, at this point AppGameKit did not compete with anything else but DarkBasic Pro to win the old DBP users over to AGK. It was living in it own little bubble and did not pay attention to what is happening in the world. TGC was keep repeating "we don't compete in the same market as Unity" and they did not realised the market is changing and professional, Indies, hobbyist and students were all heading toward the same direction dominated by visual level editors and content management systems and OOP languages. There is no longer any need and demand for an easy Basic programming language. Everybody was going visual and that little space left for AppGameKit today is dominated by modern languages like C#, TypeScript, Swift, Python and JavaScript but TGC didn't pay attention to any of this. So there is no surprise AppGameKit had a hard time gaining popularity. it was living in it own little bubble basically and did not get any coverage in the media and news because there was literally nothing worth announcing, So far the only thing TGC was doing is reinvented the wheel over and over again, it is constantly 10 steps behind everybody.

And so finally Studio was born at the very last hour but it was super late to the game once again, the market is dominated by Unity, but even in the indie/hobby/student corner where AppGameKit is really belongs has multiple fine tools compete for popularity such as Godot, GameMaker Studio, CocosCreator, Defold each of them has a lot to offer and in the education sector Python and JavaScript dominate today. So it is no surprise Studio failed again. The new IDE was not so popular, many people preferred the old Geany IDE, the level editor was also not so great compared to other level editors, the new Vulkan engine was also not so great again. the asset manager is nice but noting to write poems about. So it is ended up being below average tool compared to others.

The only real advantage of AppGameKit at this point is the cross platform engine the ability to target multiple platforms with the same code is amazing.
Really nice mobile support, one of the most simple ways to target mobiles with ads and in-app purchase.
Can do both 2D and 3D and we can relative easily render 2D in 3D very powerful feature packed in an easy to use package.
Preview over Wifi is huge it is speed up so much testing on mobile devices, other tools usually need to build the game and copy over the device and install manually. AppGameKit Player save so much time, it is really amaizing my favourite feature
Easy coding in Tier1, but it doesn't mean it is better than a modern OOP language. For beginners maybe but once you taste TypeScript or Swift for example, it is really hard to come back to such a bare bone language as Tier1 so in a way Tier1 is an advantage but also one of the biggest disadvantage.

Even though these are all nice features, but AppGameKit is missing many key features and polish to win people over.
n00bstar
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Posted: 11th Jan 2021 11:48
Not to be rude here but... Zigi, you need to move on. Why stay here if what you want is Unity? If you think Basic has no place in the gamedev landscape, then by all means go and use something else. You know, looking at your thread history, the questions you ask pretty much show where you're at in terms of coding skills and I would venture to guess that you *did* try Unity, and then realized it was a few steps above what you can handle.

There is certainly room for improvement with AppGameKit, but there really is absolutely no reason to make AppGameKit the same as the other development tools when you could be using those tools to begin with.
Zigi
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Posted: 11th Jan 2021 12:46 Edited at: 11th Jan 2021 13:00
Quote: "Zigi, you need to move on. Why stay here if what you want is Unity?"

I did move on, I don't use AppGameKit but it does have certain aspects I do like a lot and I'm here to follow it development and only sharing my thoughts.
Otherwise it is not Unity I want. I have listed the features I want.... This is why this topic is here isn't it? To share the features we need and yes I had some extra thoughts as well after all it is called a "discussion board". So can we have a discussion here right?

Quote: "If you think Basic has no place in the gamedev landscape, then by all means go and use something else."

I am using something else, I'm only sharing my opinion and that is the entire world even education moved on to OOP languages.
But I accept that I can be total wrong but in that case why there is not a single Basic game dev tool that is successful? Can you tell me just 1 successful game dev or educational tool using Basic? Basic is dead. it is my opinion.

Quote: "You know, looking at your thread history, the questions you ask pretty much show where you're at in terms of coding skills and I would venture to guess that you *did* try Unity, and then realized it was a few steps above what you can handle. "

Nope, it is not the case at all. I admit I am not very good at math and shaders and because I stopped using AppGameKit years ago, yes I may have-had some noob questions around here when I decided to have an other peek and made some requests like path finding and lights but nothing is wrong with my coding skills thank you. I have no problem coding a lot of things but certainly I can not code everything otherwise I would be not asking for things like pathfinding and scrollable, draggable, resizable GUI widgets, I would do it my self.

Quote: "There is certainly room for improvement with AppGameKit, but there really is absolutely no reason to make AppGameKit the same as the other development tools when you could be using those tools to begin with."

But you can learn from them can't you? They must be doing something right and as someone have a great deal experience with some of them I am sharing my opinion what is it they doing right.... But it is just my opinion and it is up to TGC to listen or not.

Anyhow, if you guys and TGC believe in good old Basic and to include only the bare minimum in AppGameKit and code everything from scratch in Basic, I have no objection. I only share my opinion here because I do like certain things about AppGameKit and I do follow it development, interested to see what direction is it going. But no I don't use it but I would if had the features I mentioned, the polish and a predictable roadmap.
n00bstar
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Posted: 11th Jan 2021 13:07
You're as illogical as you are condescending.
Zigi
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Posted: 11th Jan 2021 13:52
n00bstar wrote: "You're as illogical as you are condescending."

I'm sorry if that's the case, it is possible I am illogical and it was not my intention to be condescending, I do respect your opinion. I have only shared my opinion on the lack of success AppGameKit had and what features personally I would like to see. I never said that it is a must have, but that it is a must have for my purposes....
RRR
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Posted: 11th Jan 2021 14:28
I mostly like it as it is. Do not want to have a subscription. I think it is enough to pay for new versions and media and so on. I also like C-style basic and the Tier 2 option but it would be nice with an inline C functionality to get it more integrated.
fubarpk
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Posted: 12th Jan 2021 01:02
It is a good language and engine and is very powerful at what it can do, but there are minor changes that could be
made that could improve its power.

1>Shader support for newer versions of glsl keeping backward compatibility as much as humanly possible
2>Commands that it states in the help file not yet implemented or something to that effect
3>Commonly used commands that people use memblocks now for such as pixel colour picking

fubarpk on Itch...………...https://fubarpk.itch.io/
fubarpk on googleplay..https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=fubarpk
DannyD
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Posted: 12th Jan 2021 13:09
I agree with everything mentioned

My wishlist for AGK

Asset encryption
SQLite and other databases
Support for browser storage in HTML5
Record Sound
Midi Support
GUI widgets like buttons, switches, sliders..etc for better App development



Loktofeit
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Posted: 12th Jan 2021 14:21
Zigi wrote: "the entire world even education moved on to OOP languages."


The rest of your condescending diatribes aside, most BASIC languages have supported OOP to one degree or another for over 20 years now.
Zigi
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Posted: 12th Jan 2021 16:07 Edited at: 12th Jan 2021 16:20
Loktofeit wrote: "The rest of your condescending diatribes aside, most BASIC languages have supported OOP to one degree or another for over 20 years now."

AGK only scratching the surface with types if that is what you are referring to. But honestly what harm more OOP features could do? Nobody is forced to use them if you prefer not to.
But I don't even claim that it is a must to add OOP to Tier1, but only asking for a Tier3 OOP language then as an alternative....

Re:condescending
What I am referring to when I say Basic is dead is the fact, even most high school education is moved to JavaScript and higher education more likely uses Python, TypeScript, C#, C++, Java to teach programming. If you know any class that teaches Visual Basic or some form of Basic it is because the teacher is most likely from that era when Basic was popular and it is fine to introduce programming to kids, no doubt. But any people in it 30's today most likely uses JS, Python or TypeScript to introduce people to programming. Don't know why is this or any of my opinions is condescending.... it is a fact.

As for game development, there was a time when Basic was super popular indeed but it is no longer the case, today not a single modern tool uses Basic except AGK. There are some others too like BlitzMax, Blitz3D, GLBasic, PlayBasic, RCBasic but seriously most of these tools are developed by one man teams in spare time as a hobby. Honestly this kind of hobby projects like RCBasic supposed to mean Basic is alive and popular?

Again I don't mean to be condescending but these are facts as far as I know.
But I can be wrong. I even accept that I can be wrong and Basic is amazing and super popular, but so far not a single person did prove me wrong I was only insulted for being condescending, illogical and most likely I don't even know how to code. C'mon, how about having a proper discussion without insults?
Loktofeit
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Posted: 12th Jan 2021 16:59 Edited at: 12th Jan 2021 17:10
Quote: "C'mon, how about having a proper discussion without insults?"
I did. That you consider a fact to be insulting is not my problem.

To be clear, I am not contesting any argument about the popularity of BASIC. I only replied regarding the section that I quoted from your post. I'd be more than happy to take this conversation to another thread, as none of it belongs in this one.

Quote: "Again I don't mean to be condescending but these are facts as far as I know."

I think the issue here then is that you may not be sure what 'condescending' means. It is not whether you are stating facts or not, but the tone in which you address people.
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Do everything inside functions.
Use finite state machines to control your game.
Use lots and lots of source files.
Use virtual resolution instead of the default percentage system." - Digital Awakening
blink0k
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Posted: 12th Jan 2021 19:02
This is getting off track here. Let's keep it to the subject matter and respectful.
Do not post unless it relates DIRCECTLY to the title of the thread
c0d3r9
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Posted: 12th Jan 2021 19:03
BTT
For me i wishes commands like GetPixelColorRed/Green/Blue/Opacity(img, x, y), and SetPixel.
And if not OOP then Functions in Types.
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gosukiwi
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Posted: 13th Jan 2021 17:35
Regarding the whole OOP topic, I make a living writing OOP code, so obviously I'd love to have OOP features in AppGameKit, either integrate them to Tier 1, make a new language, or make AppGameKit work with Lua, JavaScript, or whatever trendy language people use.

The thing is, if you add function pointers and allow null references, you can actually do OOP (without closures you might not have private methods/attributes but it's not the end of the world). But that change implies lots of architectural changes to their interpreter, so maybe it's easier to make the interpreter play nice with Lua or something. That would actually be super cool and attract a lot of developers.

Also yes to assets compression and encryption! That's a big thing.
Loktofeit
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Posted: 13th Jan 2021 18:34
gosukiwi wrote: "maybe it's easier to make the interpreter play nice with Lua or something."


I like that idea!
LynxJSA's web games/quizzes - LynxJSA's Android apps
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"Stick to a single main loop (DO...LOOP) and loop through it every frame.
Do everything inside functions.
Use finite state machines to control your game.
Use lots and lots of source files.
Use virtual resolution instead of the default percentage system." - Digital Awakening
McFish
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Posted: 14th Jan 2021 20:06 Edited at: 15th Jan 2021 10:57
Here's my bucket list of requested improvements:

* Ternary operators, eg. : var = ( x < 0 ? 0 : x )
* Minimap of the code (makes is easier to search for highlighted text for example)
* Git integration (like the one visual studio code has)

Other than this, it would be nice, if they spent some on maintaining also the dlc:s from time to time..

Gameguru loader, no changes since 2018 (dunno if it even works these days)
Particle editor .. No updates for the past 7 months (and still has invalid documentation / missing runtime zip file)
James H
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Posted: 15th Jan 2021 00:28
I hope this is classed as feature completion - please fix the darn memory leak from making changes/deleting physics bodies, seams absolutely ridiculous this has been totally ignored for so long! For clarification on the need - I have a rolling terrain that cannot use the physics because every segment progression eats a shed load of memory, into the the gigabytes very very quickly. Cheers
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 15th Jan 2021 05:44
TGC cant keep up they simply dont have the manpower and/or possibly the know how.
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James H
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Posted: 15th Jan 2021 12:13
Then they need to do one of two things as far as I m concerned...make it free or complete what they started....it does not bode well for their reputation to keep producing half products. DBP recieved many an update and never got fully completed...but at least it was free. This is exactly why I have waited for the price to go down having spent a boat load of money on DBP only for it to get abandoned with a tonne of issues still remaining. Now I don't expect the world from them but they should at least be forthcoming about things like this prior to point of sale! Let us not forget that dBP U7.1 onwards was a waste of time given they back pedaled to this for GameGuru because they must have known they messed up. This was the point of abandonment!

Honestly if they cannot keep up they might as well pack it in,they cannot survive on Raveys driving test software forever. This appears to be a massive marketing exercise, they should of stopped at 2d instead of trying to blag us. Is it any wonder I keep reading negative posts on their own forum! They aren't even learning from their mistakes at this point but simply glossing over it to keep the cash cow flowing. If they truly get the bulk of their income from driving test simulator then they won't have any issue making agk totally free.

I also take issue with them not knowing how to clean up after themselves, of course they know, they produced it and have the source!?? Most businesses recognise the need to maintain their customer base by means of repeat sales to the same people rather than constantly introducing new customers...there are a LOT of user names for this forum no longer present, users that I feel would still be present had they pulled their socks up and completed what they started. sure they can survive to an extent but eventually they will have to reinvent themselves/products, it has now become a cycle of this behaviour, produce incomplete product, build on jt, ditch it, come up with a new product, rinse, repeat - very distasteful indeed an hows a lack of respect for there existing customers.

Instead of focusing on new stuff, they should finish T1 properly...after DBP I swore to myself they would not get a single penny more from me, if agk hadn't been on 70% reduction this would still be the case...the only reason I bought the shader pack was because I had been following Janbos work and felt he deserved it and simply wanted to see it first hand. BASIC is aimed at introducing users to the world of programming with view to progress to C variants, however as a hobbiest this not what I want, if I am forced into going this route it is far more likely I would move over to Unreal and abandon TGC altogether(I actually do pla around with iUnreal just not its source). After all if I feel abandoned then that is only going to be reciprocated in kind! I think it is high time TGC stop hiding in the shadows and be more forthcoming with a simple basic roadmap of the near future. No more excuses please, just some accurate clarity so that we know exactly where we stand and no more gimmicky stuff like incomplete features that are show stoppers. I mean come on, what good is a physics system if at the endof the day you end up not using it and writing your own? It isn't as though I am complaining there is no decent vehicle joints for suspension, it is simply that cleaning up after yourself is a very basic thing to do...a simple low poly mesh eating into gigabytes of ram when updating to a different mesh of the same size is APPAULING....1250 tris to be exact. It is almost as though they have a purpose to prevent large environments with bells and whistles ever coming to fruition. We aren't even talking about the latest tech here, this is quite old now to say the least and after reading of the fallout between TGC and Stabinthedark I can't help but wonder if TGC has a future in this niche market if they do not have the ability to finish what they have outsourced! What sort of foolish behaviour is this?

Of course this mostly opinion, but some of it is undeniable fact...the one thing I am sure of is that whatever nonsense they pedal with GameGuruMax...I won't believe it. For me that is the reputation they have gained...not to be trusted because every time I put faith in what they state, somewhere something as significant as massive memory !eaks in a matter of just seconds crops up. Well I shall climb down from my soap box now lol but this is a registered bug on github by others and not even addressed once by TGC. This is where they are lacking, no commitment yet are willing to paint the picture that they listen to us, well maybe they do listen, but they are not hearing and it is easy to say you listen as its something that gives ZERO commitment. So long as they make no commitment and hold no conviction to complete stuff then my money stays mine. *Climbs down from soap box*

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tarkusAB
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Posted: 15th Jan 2021 13:29
Quote: "this is a registered bug on github by others and not even addressed once by TGC."


That's an excellent point.

Why are we discussing new features if the current ones don't work?



https://github.com/TheGameCreators/AGK-Studio/issues
riiupw
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Posted: 15th Jan 2021 15:37
where is my post?
janbo
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Posted: 15th Jan 2021 16:27 Edited at: 15th Jan 2021 18:25
@James H: I heared this frustration from many other members over the years.

This Thread isn't for "new features" its for those features that got requested alot, never really got finished or are broken.
While I like a challenge sometimes, I really don't have to reinvent wheels that seem standard to any other engine.
If I can do something for TGC to make it a complete commandset than i'll do that, rather than switching to another language, so this thread is doing exactly that.
Santiago3D
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Posted: 19th Jan 2021 13:25 Edited at: 19th Jan 2021 13:36
Good morning!.

Some of my observations about AGK:

1. HELP - often there are no examples in the help, and a non-expert user will always find it difficult to move forward with many commands.

2. MULTIPLE LIGHTS - using multiple directional lights can generate many atmospheric or weather effects, it would be nice to have more than one directional light.

3. Loading 3D models is not friendly, that generates a lot of frustration and difficulty when creating a video game or prototypes.

3rd. LOADMESH - function that loads objects, without animations, without childs, but with textures and material properties and meshes, colors, brightness, etc.

3b. LOADANIMMESH - function that loads 3d objects with animation, childs, and bones, Textures, and material and meshes properties, colors, brightness, etc.

4. var = GETPARENT (Object) DOES NOT EXIST ?????!
there is a function like "GetParent (obj_id)?" to know if my object is a child of who?
someting like "Who is your father?"
0 = nobody
12323 = is my father

5. FIXOBJECTTOOBJECT () teleports the child by linking it to the parent. this should not happen !!!
When attaching one object to another, depending on its properties, AppGameKit teleports it, making development extremely difficult.

I personally spent many days trying to solve this problem, and it was not easy.
so when linking an object, it should not teleport, regardless of the scale, rotation or position of both objects if desired.

6. AppGameKit PARTICLES ROTATIONS. all games use sprite rotation to generate smoke, splashes, fire and other effects, it would be nice if AppGameKit has the option to rotate the particles.

7. SCREEN RESOLUTION. There is some issue when starting your game on different computers, since it starts in resolutions that are not the ones you chose, sometimes the whole interface loads badly, and the users who test the app must restart the game 3 times so that The resolution loads well, I am not an expert, but that happened to all my testers and to me it happened to the 3 computers that I tested it.

-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------


My previous experience is using BLITZ3D, and it would be good if AppGameKit has at least the same handling of loading and handling of 3D models, it seems to me that AppGameKit, with all the power it has, has such a limited handling of 3D models.

A developer who models objects in 3D, should be able to export the 3D model of him and load it in AppGameKit without problems, with different textures, respecting the colors, transparency and brightness of the elements that a MESH can contain.

I have more than 20 years working professionally with 3D models and rendering, and almost 20 years using Blitz3D. AppGameKit is much more powerful but it doesn't make it easy at all to insert 3D art into your games.

This bottleneck is crucial for AppGameKit to be chosen by users who are not experts, by indies, who could make their developments, show them, and generate new content developed with AppGameKit that will serve AppGameKit to show their true capabilities.

People who see the AppGameKit gallery, in terms of 3D, notice and comment that the graphics are not surprising, that they do not have a good level, and that is because the difficulty to achieve that quality is immense.

if AppGameKit took care of that matter, I think it would be the ideal tool for any indie that wants to make 3D games.

I am not an expert user, in fact I do not understand many of the things they ask for, because they seem very advanced to me, so as you know, I experienced all these difficulties in the last year and I was able to overcome them thanks to the user community that has a infinite will to help everyone.

From now on I believe that AppGameKit is a very powerful application, and I continue to choose it, although it has generated a lot of frustration and doubts, and I still do not have 100% certainty regarding whether my game will exceed the demands that steam users have to time to buy a game.

and an Indie must have that security of his tool.

As for contributing money, if I have dollars in my paypal account, I would be willing to help with pleasure.

It would be the only way that I could collaborate since here 100 dollars is equivalent to 15,000 pesos, practically a basic monthly salary here.

And as I mentioned to the AppGameKit developers, if it were easier, I could generate a lot of visual content from prototypes made at AppGameKit, as I did with BLITZ3d, which would help show the power of AGK.
n00bstar
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Posted: 19th Jan 2021 22:17
@Santiago

I feel ya. I used Blitz for years, and in many ways Appgamekit is retardedly behind what Blitz offered some 20 years ago. Unfortunately Blitz was made by Mark Sibly, a notorious moron with a long track record of abandoning his projects instead of updating them to remain current. He dropped Blitz Basic for Blitz 3d, then 3D for Plus. Then Plus for Max. Then Monkey, then Monkey2, then MonkeyX, then Cerberus...etc etc. However, even if Blitz3D *was* super easy to get into, it was already behind the curve when it came out.

Appgamekit is the closest I could find to Blitz that would compile to multiple platforms, and that's why I'm here. But I'm staring to realize that AppGameKit is pretty much abandoned already, with the team putting in only minimal efforts to maintain it. You'll find that the development team doesn't share your vision (and mine!) in terms of what AppGameKit is, or could be. They don't expect any of their customers to want to use AppGameKit in a professional or semi-professional setting, even though it could...if they just gave it some love. They expect the users to code Snake clones for facebook, or Flappy Bird #87715231 for iOS and Android.

But AppGameKit *is* a good language so don't give up. It takes some mental gymnastics to go from Blitz to AppGameKit however. And there's *way* *too* *freaking* *much* boiler plate code needed to get basic things going. On my first project, I ended up coding a whole freaking 2D graphic framework that acts like good old Blitz. Works like a charm!
Polaraul
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Posted: 20th Jan 2021 16:21
AGK2 used to be my language of choice. I like the 'old school' coding experience that Geany and Tier1 Basic offers, the promise of cross platform deployment and the rapid build times. Increasingly though, it feels as though I am fighting the language, either in constantly re-inventing the wheel, writing lines of code to implement missing library functions that are standard in other languages, or creating work arounds for the odd choices the dev team made in implementing the way some commands works (array.length for one). In addition, many 'QOL' commands that I take for granted in other languages are absent in AGK2. I think Janbo expressed it well "While I like a challenge sometimes, I really don't have to reinvent wheels that seem standard to any other engine."

I would list those commands and missing features (many of which have been repeatedly requested by various users over the years) I alluded to above, but according to https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/223877 bugs not reported in GitHub will not be fixed. I suspect the same goes for feature completion requests https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/224038. I will therefore probably add my bugs and requests to the 339 issues already present on GitHub.

The biggest problem with AGKS (I suspect AppGameKit Classic may be done at this point) is that outside of DLC, I feel that TGC has no passion for this product. Updates are few and far between, and when they do appear, it almost feels as though it was a chore on the part of TGC. Such updates as do appear are usually a handful of bug fixes with a few tweaks to existing commands. If we are lucky, there may be an additional new command thrown in. Major feature or command additions are few and far between.

Sadly, at present, and given all the zero cost competition out there, I really don't feel AppGameKit Classic or Studio is worth the full retail price. Perhaps TGC should go to a Licensing model, it would then be in the best interest of TGC to refine and keep the language current.
Santiago3D
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Posted: 20th Jan 2021 17:27
reading your opinions, and sharing the vision I wonder the following.

If they released AppGameKit tier 1, for users to improve it, the engine would not evolve? Couldn't that be a solution?



I don't know how those things work, I don't even understand how GitHub works...

maybe it is a topic to talk about in another Post.
Rick Nasher
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Posted: 20th Jan 2021 22:39 Edited at: 20th Jan 2021 22:45
I agree as an Ex-Blitz-er. Mark 'Silly' should have done Blitz3d V2, 3, etc and could have made millions and millions that way, but instead abandoned it and restarted all new projects over and over again depending on his shifting interests, without really understanding why people loved Blitz3d so much in the first place and why the fanbase remained loyal and new people kept coming. Even though it was pointed out to him over and over he failed/refused to understand - Now he lost his company and is working for others.

Let's hope TGC don't make the same mistake, for AppGameKit is good at the core: It's cross platform, has shaders, 2d, 3d, VR/AR and bullet physics.
And there's plenty of ways to make money from it. They only need to actually address the issues and extend and improve on features already there. And perhaps open it up a little more so people can write better extensions.


Besides all the things mentioned in this thread already, here's my personal wish list (most of already said before)

For the Studio Editor:
- Use space more effeciently: combine the menubar with the icon bar on one row.
- A Terrain, Scene and Character Editor (can be taken from GameGuru.. or AGE3D?). *
- A Shader Editor (can be taken from DarkBASIC - I've heard Paul did one there?). *
- Make a small corner window (which can be minimized) for advertising assets & add-ons for sale by TGC.

For the Language:
- Vertex commands (without going through all the memblocks hoops & hassle).
- Spotlights and more point lights.
- Native cube maps(even though there are some solutions around).
- Full physics ( also vehicles like cars, ships, planes and rockets).
- Full fbx support(as mentioned elsewhere in this thread) with option to autoload textures.
- Unify GameGuru 3d objects.
- Export 3d objects to disk.
- Asynchronous loading.
- Possibility to compile fully standalone executables ( for interpreted gives a lot of pro's itches and is usually faster).
- Option to pack files encrypted in the standalone.
- Easy multiplayer network features such as Unity Networking Portal.
- Missing useful commands from DarkBASIC Pro that people ask for (if feasible giving AGK's multiplatform nature,
but in a lot of cases should be easy to port I'm guessing?).
- OOP for those who fancy it ( might be more difficult to realize, perhaps a full rewrite so probably nogo).
- Besides BASIC-script and C++, officially add C# and Python, which are *very popular* and seen as professional(important feat).
Do this either by default or.. launch in a subscription AppGameKit Pro version.
- Add-on for massive multiplayer games, such as Photon Networking and perhaps provide to host on a matchmaker-server against a monthly fee.
- Open things up for more 3rd party add-ons.
- Console support if possible (more easy now?).

Probably forgot a few things.

Greetings Earthlings...
janbo
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Posted: 21st Jan 2021 09:40
Please don't forget that this isn't a plain feature requests thread but for the features that where ask for a lot but got lost at some point.

I Talked to Rick again about this and he will post here next week i think.
We have the source code of AppGameKit Classic and some of us added their own features to it, so I asked if it's possible to send them code.
Now this wont really work if the code isn't up to the standard, so what do you guys think about a few selected people to review the code beforehand ? Moderators so to say ?
Jack
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Posted: 21st Jan 2021 11:11 Edited at: 21st Jan 2021 11:22
AGK 2021:

Most of the stuff I would really like to see is already mentioned.

3d Object
- Full FBX Support with scene/camera/ animation/ texture (just load an fbx file and apply it as intro scene directly, as FBX is meant to be used)

3d Object Animation
- Load only the Animation from an 3d File and append / merge it with the current animation
- Make it possible to do bone transformation while animation is running, also an animation mixer in realtime

Sound:
- 3d Sound function
- Audio Shaders (realtime and preprocessed)
- Record Sound
- CreateSoundFromShader

Images:
- DDS Support (control mipmaps, extreme fast loading times)
- At least another state of the art image file format
- CreateImageFromShader

Media Loading:
- Async loading "streaming" of media, esspecially images and 3d models. (I want to start a loading process, asset should appear once loaded and should not block the main thread)

Thread Controls:
- Or at least call function by a Timer like in c++ ( like: TimeThread(1.0,"Loop2") - would run the function Loop2 each 1.0 seconds, no matter how blocked the main loop is...)

Math:
- Modern 3d / 2d math Library Vectors/ Quaternion math, aswell as Matrix stuff

Pathfinding:
- Simple Array Based A* function but please async, so it does not block, simple and perfect.



The key points are:
- At least one workflow with current image and model formats that is trimmed on performance
- Async Asset loading (load in background, apply once its loaded)
- Animation modification in real time


This is not my wish list^^ This is just what needs to be done in order to keep the state.

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